the countries are not, you know, us policies have been pretty much in the effect of us thought that it can sanction whoever wants and everyone go along. but, you know, the rise of the bricks, i think is really the, the big factor here. now a lot of countries see an alternative that before it was uh, you gotta play ball with the american international monetary system and the dollar, you gotta use a dollar and so forth. but now when you have an alternative use a and many of them and companies like lilian malaysia are now looking to that alternative and then alternative is going to excel rate uh at a time that the american leadership has been really prophetic. a political as well as economic, i mean, uh, buy into all his, uh, you know, all of all his teddy's in in the ukraine project in the ignore and everything else . and that's coming back in the, you know, there's

a blow back going on. and us next week, this week or friday to sunday, visit to the world, a part studios next. find out who exam as built for company today. after the shortest the breaks. this is our teachers the the hello and welcome to world to part one victim. that starting history teaches you is that everything works until it doesn't. the friday, the golden age, the dark,

or maybe it's aftermath, especially when somebody tries to avoid the inevitable. will delete this elections in the west more and more vividly demonstrating the voters disenchantment for the men date. of course, what do i have for the west and for the rest the world to discuss it, i'm now joined by installed a former british diplomat and also roles and miss fit in moscow. how british diplomacy in russia failed as a proud, as great to see you again. thank you very much for your time. this just to get on some of things and by some you, by. now the last time we chatted, it was primarily about the case for and po assistance. he's a russia which borrowing from the title of your book sales. but to them, more interested in taking a look at the domestic politics across the west and also in the united kingdom. because we have had a number of major political events like elections in your own country or in france

. the has been some debate in the united states and i think in all of those the political establishment is looking rather clumsily. i wonder if you see that as just um, you know, and related sequence of, of valves or do you think it signifies some sort of a trend, perhaps the turn of the tie, the political side? well, i mean, they're the 2 aspects of the space. one is that all it takes moves and cycles anyway, and what we're seeing in the u. k. is it just a natural kind of a name into that cycle to so from given to the government, it's been in the past 14 years really, and that's kind of, you know, that if flows up and down in terms of kind of low nation is more into much that's movements uh, i tend to think um, but you know, the other aspect, it's a specific nature of what we see today happening, where there's quite a shop can move away from that kind of consensus. the main political parties in several countries. the u. k. being a being born,

obviously the light body will gain power in the u. k, but we're seeing the rise of, of the more message body. so the reform party sort of guiding, motivates and the course in the fonts in the back of the cons decision which could for the 1st time actually kind of hand. uh, let's see what the 2nd line of waiting says. but to moving depends. that's, that's potty the so i think there is sort of in base so i so sense of the kind of shift away from to the mainstream kind of political bodies which on very on seeing the questions, people worried about stay on the call sort of being causes on as far as i'm concerned, as an internationally some for example, what's happening in the train and other kind of complex. so and well, i think this concern that connects these traditional policies and nobody's saying anything different from each other on these big label challenges which any seem to be getting was pulled up even though studies horse thing, slightly different things they have. they tend to do uh, the same things when they come to power. and, you know, the last time we discussed your book,

one of your arguments was the west and the leave have become sole cell sensors and because of perhaps so arrogant that they can be bothered with studying the reality . you know, establishing facts on the ground objective facts on the ground and, you know, making the decisions whatever they may be based on those realities on the ground. and i one day that applies to domestic politics as well that you know, they, they process certain core worse, which may be totally unrolled as from what the reality actually calls for. yeah, i think this probably by oaks on a think, well, he also sees it is less of a separation between kinda states and media now as well. you know, like where you see some in the u. k. in the press, when you took by ukraine, for example, somebody are going to think about it pretty much every day. this kind of thing, no difference between what a full, the, the, the 2 main political parties say in what kind of media say it is almost kind of a complete cancellation of debate with facts so relevant to kind of, you know,

the narrative that i think what the purpose parties are doing is they actually happening debates and they're trying to introduce kind of stuff with the government and this with major media, all many talking about nothing that's kind of new particularly because the people i meet on a day to day basis they and these are for quite middle class here people are in good jobs, but have a little bit of information about what's happening in lots of situations. so in the world and even though in countries. so the inc, actually, if populism is getting people to talk more by will facts and mil events. and i think that's a good thing with mr. proud. i think there is also a very important distinction there between again, preaching and practicing because it is true that the populace parties are addressing bread and butter issues. but sometimes i get an impression that they're doing that just for the sake all 5, you know, populism or um, you know, for vacation, do you think they actually uh, me and do you think they actually in time to put that into

a real policies for the people because from all the examples we have had up until now, even with trump, which was a major example in the united states, you know, getting those ideas. realized is a huge challenge. i'm not even sure it's 3 a like it's a, it's possible bestbuy to come to the specific drug going to the end of, of the onset. but to me, i think i'm a no, i think this is a genuine desire to kind of do something different from the main stream in creating on situations like you know, you, clay, nobody's talking about this kind of a particular situation where we can get a new way to come to succeed in ukraine is to send billions and billions and billions of weapons and nothing, but he seems to be improving any crazy sequentially losing. nobody's talking about an alternative to the thing that needs to be that's a baby. so i think most people are not just flaws and others, including so big dual band took by the need to negotiate to supplement. i think that's a genuine sentiment. i think people generally think, well maybe we need see something different. you know that, and i think that's

a good thing then we should encourage that and that will. and trump, what happens that, i mean when you go back to installation, but in 2016 is coming in in 2017 was different than was that i see the, the political establishment in washington, including with his, within that same physical positive of pumpkins, was totally set against him having any improvement to relations with russia. i think that dynamic may slide the have changed now way in congress and get it in some of the media more generally. there's a much wipe and debate about what i see is a good idea of just pumping billions of weapons into ukraine. so i think that dynamic that puts core dynamic in washington dc is different now albany was kind of the years ago when you're trump last suddenly election campaign that he won. so i think, i think if he would again power and let's face it. if j biden's the, he's in the vice and the lights and increases day by day. the think the political

dynamics of dc will be different for trump and it would, he would have, i think more space to have to pay to buy that. she kind of changing the that particular state is going to cry. now, you mentioned something about the steer crane and one budgeting trends we see across the entire west, including the u. k. is an increase in military responding us. russia being used as a primary pre tax, and it's suppose as aggressive motives, and that's pre be understandable. after all, there is a conflict raging and rushes increasing its military spending as well. but one thing the kremlin is very cautious about is making sure that they are also putting a lot of resources into uh, the quality and availability of public goods saw that the public doesn't get to test. and that's ultimately what the politics and so has always been the bylaws, you know, managing your foreign policy concerns against the, the domestic challenges was fortunate police. it's very,

very clear. she makes that statement in eh, and every of he's pretty much every of his speech is that there is a priority of domestic politics above any uh, war and adventures. do you think it's the same in the west? do you think the politicians and the best actually put that priority on the well being of that own people? northern speeches, but in actual policy? well, i mean there are 2 aspects of that. firstly, i mean certainly if you look at the code election and you tell you guys dominated by domestic issues, no one's really talking about what's happening on, on the world stage. that's focusing on things like the cost of living crisis. yeah, yeah, absolutely. so somebody a bunch of these ballooning, you know, and i know, i know, i know, you know, they've made a commitment. they've made a commitment to increase depend spanish 2.5 said of gdp by to like putting the consecutive party. but the point is, nobody is talking about about that debate is just being, you know, based on that debate that,

that's just been accepted this given. but the debate itself is really bad. domestic issues that's, that's at the specified aspect. that's the 1st aspect of my response to a question. the 2nd aspect is, even though they don't talk to you by the all the actually really make us any save . you know, by how the phone policy is actually increasing, the likelihood of a must be a general conflict unit in europe. but the thing that they absolutely on helping the domestic constituencies, because even though they, they, the seas, the debates is actually that policies that actually make their lives much more dangerous. yes. you know, we're worried about the cost of living causes, getting appointments in the hospital ensemble way to buy a new table, frankly. now there is an argument in british politics that, um, you know, your political environment reached its big back in 2016. i mean, the, the peak of population reached with the breakfast. well done. that if the labor winds this time around the developing, the 5, the return of british political life back to,

to the center and the bread and butter concerns, which they certainly profit rhetorically. but do you actually buy, do you think there is a, sort of this either mental and within your political leads to actually get to the, you know, mundane and boring, work on governance. politics is puckered just by its nature, democratic politics because one sites have motivates then the other side that by some nation, when was politics ever know populace? i'm going to take on this issue with you in the next question. good. yeah. can you of the ask me about my 1st question, but i think we just stuck in a bullying monday middle when everybody has kind of flesh ideas on the thing. that's a real problem on the think. actually, that may be one of the reasons going back to what we discussed at the top of this session, white nation as policies are starting to gain popularity because you know, they actually are offering something different. now some aspects of what they offer, you know, the n g integration and stuff. i personally don't support that isn't po i've been

told isn't and that sort of thing. but the own a button. but you know, if i buy to buy it sort of bigler things, they'll thing alternative ideas and i think that is, you know, that is going to give you more appeal. now you mentioned a minute ago that uh pop politics is popular is by definition and dishonest and i agree with you and i think we can see that right now playing out in the u. k with the so there's a lot of alpha says being pulled by the torres on the tactical aspects of voting and trying to get as many bo, uh, voters out to you and the band boxes. and we saw the same thing and during the previous election campaign in the united states with the democrats going out of the way. and you know, as trying to facilitate the procedure to the, to an extent when some concerns about the credibility you were raised above. you know, that's done everywhere, but after the ballad boxes, so the, the polls close uh you need to get to down to work. and by that that,

that's what happens if you're have a good leader. because at the end of the day, politics is supposed to be about the delivery rather the delivery of the resolved. so it hasn't been the delivery of boats. so i wonder if, again, i guess i'm asking the same question in a different way, either an athlete or is from your side at least, who genuinely want to change things around, maybe in a controversial way, but to in january want to bring change about not themselves into the office or that you know, even political interest, but actually change something for the people. yeah, i mean, i don't see any kind of genuine fresh ideas coming from any, any physical body in this campaign. some areas of interest. i suppose that i'm giving of bodies more independence by the office of bloodstream responsibility and things of that that i see move is what, what kind of tiny bug government did in 997 when it came to the bank of england independence, which is one of the best things actually they ever happened, then they'll have use of government meddling and they say so the macro economic

phase. but in terms of the big ticket issues, i didn't really see any sort of sizable change. you know, the k is the country with massive debt lossy costs like caving the unprecedented simple and gaudy tools made people drink a bit. but you know, we have huge that we didn't have a somebody to spend, even though actually it was spending another no, but a 5 cent of d. p on dependency. but nobody's even talk to you by that. there's no money to kind of come up with some fresh ideas. and that would be like its idea of cutting public services, cutting civil 7 stilts making does it onto that sort of thing. so, so we kind of stuck, we've got no money. we've golf, nobody lied is people just fed up with the toys, so we're gonna end up with a boeing label, probably minister instead. but that doesn't really say necessarily signify. we'll change. i said proud. we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the

water is part of the lag. is it a party would post isn't the deepest to you of us in that, in the word part? is it something deeper, more complex might be present? good. let's stop without pieces. let's go out of as the men come back to the ends of portsmouth and proud a foreman british diplomat as also ralph missed it in moscow. have read this diplomacy in russia field. mister pal. they've been this very active watcher and commentator of the conflict in ukraine,

and we partially discussed already how it may be affected by various political developments in the west. but i want to ask this question specifically. do you think there will be any change uh, after the results of british or american elections are out there? thing they'll be any change on the bus that are pretty selections. because i know the conservatives of the labor party seem to have exactly the same policy, which is a policy no to discuss the own ranks and those who spoke to you drain. but the 2nd point is we didn't really have any power any way because you knew policies almost completely decided by the united states of america. and on that, i think actually any result from the east presidential election that led to some of the trump examples of gain power. you could see potentially shifting in pastry where he's being quite open in saying that he would stop multiply by trump in thing i mean, you know, whether he could do it as another massive. but i think boy, he has, that is a, he would say to and this kind of non stop division of billions and billions were

just having apps, you know, effect that any kind of making you create more in desperate losing motels you're losing more lives, you know, from this kind of turkey point, this will also, they know that's what trump essentially kind of would like to do so that we know that i imagine i would many, but either way, but uh, but it may, i think that that will be a key change of what happens, it comes to power as it goes it by and stays in device. and the other said that i liked it seems to increase every day that you wrote before the open award between the ukrainian or russian became inevitable. so as soon as the biden became the 46 president of the united states, did you reach that conclusion based on uh, biden's own political world view, or perhaps the lack of there? oh, well, i mean you had a bite and was a bit like a, you know, george w bush when it a sort of roadside legal invasion. or if we locked in in 2003, there's a real kind of sense of unfinished business, you know, for george w bush, you know, back in 2003. and by and when he came to pass,

for me is really old by this, this really deep seated reading. the them got positive being cheated. see right from the election rate 3, back in 2016 oil risk in a time, maybe in your band. so if it is by, the russian intelligence says the noise kind of things that they were complaining about. so the thing that they much kind of, uh, brought into his world view when he came to power, he boil by kid in the whole, the between it and so it takes a is so booms and it'd be blood i had been in the will. and this under that of the drum and is just a complete but 10 to the can available is us policy that had been placing it since the stuff, the grain quite so said everything that he did and did you know when he came to power? i said, well, you know, i was going to finish business do with the washer. i don't like sort of piece of news. so last, so what's happening? ukraine will bring the volks back and we'll go back to square one. and that's where we all today. no further thoughts. i'm sure your have caught some glimpses of the years presidential debate. what impression did it make on you?

it was the hillside. i mean, for any old man, my, i mean, my dad's old he's is actually old and by and i is really sad. see, you know, that, that happen happen. but i see that, you know, the question for me is that has, nobody noticed this before, you know, but he's actually an old man, and he's the oldest kind of us present getting into gainesville election campaign. he clearly can't cope anymore. he doesn't have the mental facts with faculties to do is and that way much came across into the, the device. so they get a lukea looked like somebody who is just too old for the job. i see the other big question is, well, if he's lock that now, what would you be liking for years time if he is still present that he's not going to be any benefit then he is now arguably he's going to be worse. so may have been cash sheet, but as much of the data got potty tried to kind of covered over this and say, well he just had a bad day. we will head but have bad days. mean i have bad days too, but, but i think actually it would be a mistake for him to continue. you know,

we all have bad days and uh, you know, i think you're a reference to your dad and you know and pursue that. you may have felt for by them describing this whole situation. besides, you know it's understandable on the human level, but i sometimes wonder if there it is being explored and because he's not some old ankle, you know that you have to sympathize with. he is actually, you know, running for the very powerful office, you know, office that requires a lot of responsibilities, a lot them judgment and, or apartment being an elder. and in our case of elders abuse, i mean it's pretty clear that the man is suffering suffering when he stands on the on that stage. i wonder if um, 7 is the right emotions here because a be out of the day. it's not only that, you know, he's being exploited in manipulative but this whole idea of empathy. why should we emphasize with anyone who is running for that kind of office?

this person needs to be sharp. he needs to be, you know, fully conscious of both sides of the responsibilities and the risks associated with it. why is empathy at all relevant here? well, we'll, we'll humans, i'll be but i mean my, my main concern actually is a, you know, that the, his policy, you know, since he came to us being a complete failure in know, just in the training and they'll see bus it. but in israel garza, you know, the relationship with china is getting any back to north korea units as a name, a phone policy challenge with things and go based on the, on the go by miller dancing you, bells and name. and he find the that's just my personal opinions that so as somebody who thinks about the phone policy on a day to day basis, i think he's been a disaster for the pete the us. but i think that's just accelerate to this kind of discussion, this global discussion about, you know, multi part of the world and how that sort of all the new and some of the staples. so they're looking that the page itself is, is, i mean, as, as of a hard hearted kind of list, look at the debates at the black. if he carries on,

that makes it more likely he's going to lose nothing on that basis. you know, maybe he should continue a bit longer, but i mean, you know, i, i certainly hope is a change of us policy. i mean, i'm not saying i'm in favor of trump, but you know, i certainly hate to, to biden's not going to be elected. now speaking about the east coast dental debate, i guess it was a sort of predictable, but i think still shocking the, the share absence of any substantial policy discussion because i think it was all about i'm the best and your worst funds, both speakers and none of them really bothers with providing in a detailed analysis of what they are going to do or what was wrong with the opponents policies. now i guess it's sort of what the americans have uh, grown to expect. that's what the about the british public is the level of a debate on par with their expectations of an educated choice. i think in the u. k

. if, if we had um, you know, a leader of a political party who is a basically suffering from the se, zip dimensions, and then actually the transfer me, i'm not sure it's early at all. i have a relative or whatever say it is. and then it will be under a different by the other medical expert, but it may, i think the physical system in the u. k. would actually kind of move that person out and by agent they can of a, it says that they can have a tie and actually still have a rest and the end of the, the end of the day. so, but i mean, i do, i mean, i post the great thing, good as you see probably quality debates, you know, policy in the u. k. either because, you know, the 2 mainstream parties a safe place close together. well, they really, all the badges, kind of small things on the ages. ability happens because they don't have any money to spend anything bad at the new. nobody can spend a lot more money. that'd be also saved a lot of money. so they kind of stuck in this kind of middle ground and kind of ongoing eventually, as i said earlier, of what it all comes down to is actually people fed up with the consecutive party.

they've been in power of too long. and it doesn't matter if kids styles, bookcase um with bullying, he's probably going to with anyway. well, uh, i think being stuck in the middle ground is not that bad. i mean, at the end of the day, ordinary people are always there and you do something with the legal resources and lots of challenges that you face on a daily basis. and i don't see why ballasa full edition should be any different. but i mean, that would be, that would be true if you would also have, you know, debate about the misadventures abroad. you know, if we, if we weren't doing that. so the agree with the 100 percent. but unfortunately on that's making us less sites sticking with the british politics. it's true that the last few prime ministers in the u. k. i mean they, they all have different appearances, but the policy is, they pursued or rather they failed to pursue were uh, pretty much the same. and yeah, the british politics maybe and just by parents of it makes an impression of being

more open or perhaps more representative of, of wider political choice. you have a number of bodies in the running. what are the chances of long done if not dis, investing itself from the dis western uh, very uniform flow into towards the disaster. but then the police trying to enter, steer the boat in a way that would maximize its profits or perhaps minimize the disadvantages for itself. that would be um easier if you had more. i personally welcome you, have now me our ability to steal anything is being diminished thickness to fit on little asking about the even steering the the balance in the world. steering the events within your own country. i mean, diverting a little bit of that attention, rhetorical attention towards, you know, domestic issues and we'll make it stronger domestically. and perhaps brand is more revenues as well. yeah, no, exactly. i mean, but i, the companies that she's starting to look strongly. now. i see what often happens when a government comes to name is

a new coverage. inheritance inherits it's at the time when the economy is just starting to improve and get so that the benefit from a kind of like good. so i'm gonna focus on so that's not a great is nipple and well in the new child sled. i'm grateful these i think it will in the wind. how to, you know, by this into the better shape than it was. but they're still massive challenges that they'd be face. and you know, let's say, i don't know if the dates, you know, how well they going to do when, by for conceptual labor anyway. but so, but let's say now as the rest of them clearly biased and it will weld towards the western politicians. but if we look at their reactions to the debate, as well as to the general discourse and the west, coming from the global south, it's pretty clear the people around the world find these style and the substance of politics quite debates. i wonder what influence do you think it may have on the, you know, international relations more generally? what i think, you know, what's happening. so even if the break sleeping is very,

very important, because on like the g 7, which is just an exclusive club, by the end you talk to kind of the most wealthy countries and that kind of west and the us dominated group and bricks is trying to kind of go and add this discussion to include all the old countries in the, in the developing world and the thing that so really interesting area, you know, right now, in terms of actually making sure that so people mask a, you know, less than america, you know, parts of asia, a more involved and these kind of big discussions by go, i mean that's all you as well, don't worry about this question. so i think the focus is primarily on practical uh, working projects, something that yeah, and again, deliver rather than being something abbotsford, of course it is, but the point is involved in that, why and they haven't have a saved, you know, kept as these kind of small exclusive clubs, you know, a lot to do so nothing that simple and movement as you know, united people's thoughts going to wait and selves of the belief that we know that in the us we trust them. we don't need to worry about anything else. and i think, you know, that's, that's

a will set me break. so they do is they must one to watch it when it's going to 2 decades. well, even if they wanted to trust in the united states, i'm in the head straight. if they are to do that, i know those things are going well. i'm just saying that that's a, you know, well, and then at the end of the day, i mean, it's uh, sort of the, the exact reverse of, uh, the american soul spyware. i mean, even if you one that'd be associated with it with the west, it's, you know, your own self preservation in thing doesn't let you do that very easily. anyway. it's a proud, it's been in great talking to you as always. thank you very much for that. thank you. so that'd be to see you again. and thank you for watching hope this. there again was a part of the the,

[000:00:00;00] the headline stories loving there is a lindsey's office say is any potential piece mediator. and last, a line there use with the 1st that comes after hungry as prime minister meets the russian president to discuss peace sparking. and i prime from you official i am i am. i'm a friend of 1200 year. yeah. so the spectrum up from the piece i'm looking for that . sure. because the way to stick this war and create the beat theater that we belong to a well also belongs to them. if somebody is gone forever, our resources minutes with us in our population to, to freaking out a leader as they use the west will explode out for can no more ask for if you know,