then data, of course, what do i have for the west and for the rest? well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by m filed a former british diplomat and all sort of mislead in moscow. how british diplomacy in russia failed is a proud, is great to see you again. thank you very much for your time. and this is to get on some of the things some advice from you by now the last time we chatted, it was primarily about the case for in po assistance. these are the russia which borrowing from the title of your book sale. but to them, more interested in taking a look at the domestic politics across the west and also in the united kingdom. because we have had a number of major political events like elections in your own country or in france . the presidential debate in the united states, and i think in all of those the political establishment is looking rather clumsily. i wonder if you see that as just um, you know, unrelated sequence of,

of vows or do you think it signifies some sort of a trend, perhaps the turn of the tie, the political type? well, i mean, they're the 2 aspects of those space. one is that, well, it takes moves and cycles anyway, and what we're seeing in the u. k. is it just a natural kind of a new image of that cycle to us from david it's going to be spinning pa, for 14 years. and that's kind of, you know, that if flows up and down in terms of kind of the nationalist, more international movements. uh item to think um, but the, you know, the other aspect, it's a specific nature of what we see today happening, where there's quite a shop can move away from the consensus, the main political parties in several countries. the u. k. being a being born, obviously the late body will gain power in the u. k, but we're seeing the rise of, of the more necessary spots of the reform party sort of gaining motivates. and of course, in the fonts in the back, if the cones decision was created for the 1st time she could have had and power.

let's see. one second man is waiting says, but to moving depends nested potty the so i think there is sort of in base i so sense of the kind of shift away from to the mainstream kind of physical bodies which are already on seen the questions people worried about stay on the cost of living clauses on as far as on concerned as an internationally some example of somebody in new training and other kind of complex. so and well, i think that's concerned that connects these traditional policies and nobody's saying anything different from each other on these big label challenges which any seem to be getting was pulled up even though studies horse thing, slightly different things they have. they tend to do uh, the same things when they come to power. and uh, you know, the last time we discussed your book, one of your arguments was the west and the leaves have become sole cell sensors and because of perhaps so arrogant that they couldn't be bothered with starting the reality. you know, establishing facts on the ground objective facts on the ground and, you know,

making the decisions whatever they may be based on those realities on the ground. and i wonder if that applies to domestic politics as well that you know, they, they press a certain course which may be totally avoided from what the reality actually calls for. yeah, i think that's probably by oaks on a think. well, he also sees it is less of a separation between kind of states and media now as well. you know, like what you see suddenly in the k a in the price when you took by ukraine for example, somebody i'm going to think about it pretty much every day. this part of the difference between what a full, the, the, the 2 main political parties say, and what kind of media say it, is it almost kind of a complete cancellation of debate with fact so relevant to kind of, you know, the narrative. but i think what the purpose parties are doing is they actually, i think debates and they're trying to introduce kind of stuff with the government and this with major media on when you talk about nothing that's kind of new, particularly because the people line these on

a day to day basis they and these are so quite a middle class, it'd be built in good jobs, but have a little bit of information about what's happening in lots of situations around the world and even though in countries. so the integrity is populism is getting people to talk more about will facts and mill events and nothing. that's a good thing with mr. proud. i think there is also there a very important distinction there between again, preaching and practicing because it is true that the populace parties are addressing bread and butter issues. but sometimes i get an impression that they're doing that just for the sake all 5, you know, populism or um, you know, for vacation, do you think they actually uh, me and do you think they actually in time to put that into a real policies for the people because from all the examples we have have up until now, even with trying to reach was a major example in the united states. you know, getting those ideas. realized is a huge challenge. i'm not even sure it's ria like,

it's a, it's possible bestbuy to come to the specific drug going to the end of, of the onset. but of me, i think i'm a no, i think there's a genuine desire to kind of do something different from the main streaming creating on situations like, you know, you kind, nobody's talking about this kind of particular situation where we think the new way to come to succeed in ukraine is to send billions and billions and billions of weapons and nothing but he seems to be improving any crazy. so gladly losing. nobody's talking about an alternative to that. and i think the needs to be that's a baby. so i think most people like knowledge of flaws and others, including civic tool, bundled by the need for the negotiate assessment. i think that's a genuine sentiment. i think people generally think, well, maybe we need see something different. you know that. and i think that's a good thing then we should encourage that now. and trump, what happens that, i mean when you go back to insulation back in 2016 is coming in in 2017. well, it's different than was that actually the, the political establishment in washington, the treating with this within the same fiscal positive of pumpkins was totally set

against him. having any improvements of relations with russia, think that dynamic may saw the have changed now way in congress and get it in some of the medium. well, generally there's a much more open debate about what i see is a good idea of just pumping billions of weapons into crazy. so i think that dynamic that political dynamic in washington dc is different now albany was to the years ago when the age of law said the election campaign that he won. so i think, i think it'd be if we were to get empower and let's face it if joe biden stays in the vice and the likelihood increases day by day. the thing the political dynamics of dc will be different for trump and it would, he would have, i think more space to have to pay to buy that. she kind of changing that particular state is going ukraine now. uh, you mentioned uh, sending weapons to crane and one budgeting transfer receipt across the entire west,

including the u. k. is an increase in military responding us. russia being used as a primary pre tax and it's supposed as aggressive motives and that's pretty understandable. after all, there is a conflict ranging in the rushes increasing its military spending as well. but one thing the kremlin is very cautious about is making sure that they are also putting a lot of resources into uh, the quality and availability of public goods. saw that the public's doesn't get to test and that's ultimately what the politics is. all has always been the balance, you know, managing your foreign policy concerns against the, the domestic challenges and with put you on the police. it's very, very clear. she makes that statement in eh, and every of he's pretty much every of his speech is that there is a priority of domestic politics above any uh, war and adventures. do you seeing it's the same in the as do you think the

politicians in the best actually put that priority on the well being of that own people? northern speeches, but in actual policy? well, i mean there are 2 aspects of that 1st be, i mean, certainly if you look at the count election and you tell you guys dominated by domestic issues, no one's really talking about what's happening on, on the world stage. that's focusing on things like the cost of living crisis. yeah . yeah, absolutely. so somebody a bunch of these ballooning, you know? yeah, and i know, i know, i know, you know, they've made a commitment. they've made a commitment to increase defense spending is 2.5 send of gdp by to like putting the consented punch. but the point is, nobody is talking about about that debate is just being, you know, based on that debate that, that's just been accepted as given. but the, the debate itself is really bad. domestic issues that's, that's at the specified aspect. that's the 1st aspect of my response to a question. the 2nd aspect is, even though they don't talk to you by the all the actually really making us any save. you know, by having a phone policy,

it is actually increasing the likelihood of a must be a general conflict unit in europe. but i think that they absolutely on helping the domestic constituencies because even though they, they refused to devalue to actually the policies that i should make the, our lives much more dangerous. yes. you know, we're worried about the cost of living causes, getting appointments in the hospital ensemble way to buy a new table, frankly. and now there is an argument in, uh, british politics that, um, you know, your political environment reached at speed back in 2016. i mean, be the beek of population reached with the breakfast. well done that if the labor winds this time around, it will signify the return of british political life back to, to the center and the bread and butter concerns which they secondly press rhetorical. we do actually by do you think there is a sort of this either mental and within your political leads to actually get to the, you know, mundane and boring,

work on governance. politics is puckered just by its nature, democratic politics because one side to have motivates then the other side that by some nation, when was politics ever know populace? i'm going to take on this issue with you in the next question. good. yeah. can you whether you ask about somebody for us? good. but i think we just stuck in a bullying mundane middle wouldn't be really has kind of flesh ideas on the thing. that's a real problem. and i think actually that may be one of the reasons going back to what we discussed at the top of this session. why nation is policies a start indigo popularity because you know, they actually offering something different. now some aspects of what they offer, you know that and the immigration and stuff, i personally don't support that isn't po i've been told isn't and that sort of thing. but the old and a button, but you know, they've boyd about sort of bigler things. they'll thing all to do by it is i think guys, you know, that is going to give you more appeal. now you mentioned a minute ago that, uh, politics is popular was by definition,

i'm just following some. i agree with you, and i think we can see are both right now, playing out in the u. k with the sort of a lot of assets as being pulled by the tories on the tactical aspects of voting and trying to get as many bo, uh, voters out to you. and the baton bolts is and we saw the same thing and during the previous election campaign in the united states and with the democrats going or out of the way. and, you know, as trying to facilitate the procedure to the, to an extent when some concerns about the credibility you were raised above, you know, that's done everywhere, but after the ballad, bulk, so, so the, the polls close uh, you need to get to down to work and by that that, that's what happens if you have a good layer, because at the end of the day polls 6 is supposed to be about the delivery rather than the delivery of the resolved. so it hasn't been the delivery of boats. so i, i wonder if, again, i guess i'm asking the same question in a different way,

either an athlete or is from your side at least, who genuinely want to change things around, maybe in a controversial way, but to in january, want to bring change about not themselves into the office or that you know, even political interest, but actually change something for the people. yeah, i mean i don't see any kind of genuine fresh ideas coming from any, any bisco party in this campaign. some areas of interest. i suppose that i'm giving of bodies more independence by the office about street responsibility and things of that that i see. male is what, what kind of tiny bug government did in 1997 when it came to the bank of england independence, which is one of the best things actually that ever happened. then they'll have use of government meddling and they say so macro economic phase. but in terms of the big ticket issues, i didn't really see any sort of sizable change. you know, the k is a country with massive debt law. she caused by caving the unprecedented simple and gaudy tools made people j and k. but, but you know, we have to use that. we didn't have a somebody to spend,

even though actually it was spending another no, but a 5 cent of g p, a dependency that nobody's even talk to you about about there's no money to kind of come up with some fresh ideas. and that'd be like the idea of cutting public services, you know, cutting civil servants jobs making. is it under that sort of thing? so, so we're kinda stuck. we've got no money. we've got nobody lied, is people just fed up with a toys. so we're gonna end up with of a bullying label prime minister said, but that doesn't really is necessarily signify, will change as it proud. we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the take a fresh look around is life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills,

and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground can on march the 22nd. 1943, doing the great petri. i'll take off the shirts and munch fatality and $118.00 son down the better receiving village of causing the issue. but the person who did the wish to be loaded in luxury is the most of the rooms to pony it to you. $149.00 people died including $75.00 children of age was practically wiped off. the face of the law. new blue loves are a little bit live option. could of charlie was, you know, is you,

will you put as follows? oh, shoot was hard really. i really usually don't you feeling? yes. so the infamous battalion responsible for the atrocity included over $100.00 ukrainian national is from west to new. right? yeah, it's, it's all right. and so i'm see what you guys so far as the new e phone. and so a lot of those, do you guys pursue and you up with them? us casa de classified criminal cases from the central archive of the k g. b of the rules shed light on the atrocity and on so numerous questions that have remained an onset for many years. watch on oxy, the

man come back to the portsmouth in crowd a form and british diplomat and also ralph missed it in moscow. how british diplomacy in russia failed mister, proud to have been a very active watcher and commentator of the conflict in ukraine. and we partially discussed already how it may be effected by various political developments in the west. but i want to ask this question specifically, do you think there will be any change uh, after the results of british or american elections are out there thing they'll be any change on the back of the police selections, because i know the conservatives of the labor party seem to have exactly the same policy, which is a policy no to discuss the own ranks and those who spoke to you claim. but the 2nd point is we didn't really have any power any way because you know, policy is almost completely decided by the united states of america. and on that, i think actually any result from the east presidential election that led to us is a trump examples of game power. you could see potentially

a shift in pursuit where he's being quite open in saying that he would stop multiply by trump in thing i mean, you know, whether he could do it as another massive. but i think boy, he has that is a, he would say to and this kind of non stop pollution of billions and billions were just having apps, you know, effect and any kind of making you create more in depth said losing motels. he losing more lives. you know, from this kind of touchy point as well, so they get there. that's what trump essentially kind of would like to do. so they know that i imagine i would really but either way, but uh, but i mean, i think that that will be the key change of what happens if the truck comes to power and the cost is by and stays and device and the other side of the area that like it seems to increase every day that you roll before that open award between the ukrainian or russian became inevitable. so as soon as the biden became the 46 president of the united states, did you reach that conclusion based on uh, biden's own political world view, or perhaps the lack of there? oh, well, let me get a bite and was a bit like a, you know, george w bush when it

a sort of oversight legal invasion. or if we locked in in 2003, there's a real kind of sense of unfinished business. you know, for george w bush, you know, back in 2003 and by and when he came to pass for me is really old by this, this really deep seated reading. the them got positive being cheated. see i from the election rate 3, back in 2016 oil risk in a time, maybe in your band setup is by the much the intelligence status and all those kinds of things that they were complaining about. and so the thing that they much kind of, uh, brought into his world view when he came to power, you know, he bolt back in the whole community toy need. and so it takes the so booms and the people that had been in the will. and this under that of the drum, and it's just a complete but 10 to the can of a whole piece us policy that had been placing business and stuff, the grain quite so said everything that he did. did you know when he came to power? i said, well, you know, i was going to finish business to the washer. i don't like so the piece of news. so

last all was happening. ukraine will bring the volks back, and we'll go back to square one. and that's where we all today. no further thoughts . i'm sure your have caught some glimpses of the us presidential debate. what impression did it make on you? it was that it will side. i mean, for any old man. right. i mean, my dad's old he's actually older than by and i is really sad. see, you know that, that happen happen. but i see that, you know, the question for me is that the has nobody noticed this before? you know, but he's actually an old man and he's the oldest kind of us present getting into getting into the election campaign. he clearly can't cope anymore. he doesn't have the mental 5 faculties to do is and that way much came across into the, the device. so they didn't get a lucy looked like somebody who was just too old for the job. i'm actually the other big question is policies like that now, what would you be liking for years time if you still present that he's not going to be any benefit then? then he is now arguably he's going to be with me. i think as sheet as much as the

devil got potty try to kind of covered over this and say well he just had a bad day. we will head but have bad days. mean i have bad days too, but uh, but i think actually it would be a mistake for him to continue. you know, we all have bad days and uh, you know, i think your reference to your dad and you know and pursue that. you may have felt for biden, describing this whole situation. besides, you know, it's understandable on the human level, but i sometimes wonder if there it is being explored and because he's not some old ankle, you know that the you have to sympathize with. he is actually, you know, running for the very powerful office, you know, office that requires a lot of responsibilities, a lot them judgement. and apart from it being an elder, and in our case of elders abuse, i mean it's pretty clear that the man is suffering when he stands on that on that stage. i wonder if um, 7, this is the right emotions here. and because of the out of the day,

it's not only that, you know, he's being exploited and manipulative. but this whole idea of empathy. why should we emphasize with anyone who is running for that kind of off as this person who needs to be sharp? she needs to be, you know, really conscious of both sides of the responsibilities and the risks associated with it. why is empathy at all relevant here? well, we'll, we'll humans, i'll be but i mean my, my main concern actually is a, you know, that the, his policy is he came as being a complete failure in know, just a new crane and obviously bus a button is, well, god. so, you know, the relationship with china is getting any back to north korea units. there's a name via phone policy challenge with things and go based on is under j by miller . then so you bills name and he finds you, that's just my personal opinions that so as somebody who thinks about the phone policy on a day to day basis, i think he's been exhaustive for the week. but the us, the thing that's just accelerate to this kind of discussion,

this global discussion about, you know, multi part of the world and how that's the building, you know, and so in the staples, so they're lifting the page itself isn't, is, i mean, as, as of a hard hearted kind of list, look at the debates at the black. if he carries on, that makes it more likely he's going to lose nothing on that basis. you know, maybe he should continue a bit longer. but i mean, you know, i certainly hope is a change of us policy. i mean, i'm not saying i me a favor of trump, but you know, i certainly had good to biden's not going to be re elected. now speaking about the used cars, dental debate, i guess it was a sort of predictable, but i think still shocking. be this your absence of any substantial policy discussion because i think it was all about i'm the best and your the worst from both speakers. and none of them really bothers with providing, you know, detailed analysis of what they're going to do or what was wrong with the opponents

policies. now, i guess it's sort of what the americans have a wrong to expect. that's what the about the british public is the level of a debate on par with their expectations of an educated choice. i think in the you k, if, if we had um you know, a leader of a political party who is a basically suffering from the size of the dimensions. and then actually the transfer me, i'm not sure it's early at all. i have it right. whatever, whatever, savings, and that'll be on the, i'm a dip my, the other medical expert. but i'm, i think the physical system in the u. k. would that she kind of moved that person out and by agent a can of a it says that they can have a tie and that she still have a rest and the end of the, the end of the day. so, but i mean, i do, i mean a policy going to get, as you see, probably called debates, you know, all of the new k either because you know, the 2 main st potties the same place close together. well, they really all do badges, kind of small things on the ages of quality happens because they don't have any money to spend anything right at the new. nobody can spend

a lot more money and that'd be also to save a lot of money. so they kind of stuck in this kind of middle ground and kind of ongoing eventually, as i said earlier, of what it all comes down to is actually people fed up with the conservative party . they've been in power of too long. and it doesn't matter if kids does book the case um with bullying, he's probably gonna with anyway. well, uh, i think being stuck in the middle ground is not that bad. i mean, at the end of the day, ordinary people are always there and you do something with the little resources and lots of challenges that your face on a daily basis. and i don't see why ballasa full edition should be any different, but i would be that would be true if you would also have, you know, debate about some misadventures. adult. you know, if we, if we one day a bachelor's degree would be 100 percent, but i'm forcing beyond that space. yes. let's say, speaking with the british politics, it's true that the last few prime ministers in the u. k. i mean they, they all have different appearances, but the policy is,

they pursued or rather they failed to pursue were uh, pretty much the same. and yeah, the british politics maybe and just by parents of it makes an impression of being a more open or perhaps more representative of a wider political choice. you have a number of bodies in the running. what are the chances of long done, if not dis, investing itself from the dis western uh, very uniform flow into towards the disaster, but then at least trying to in or steer the boat in a way that would maximize its profits or perhaps minimize the disadvantages for itself, that would be um easier if you had more than placing the welcome you have now and the ability to stay or anything is being diminished significant. there's no asking about the even searing the it'd be bouncing the wall, steering big events within your own country. or, i mean, they've rooting a little bit of that attention, rhetorical attention towards, you know,

domestic issues that will make you stronger domestically and perhaps produced more revenues as well. yeah, no, exactly. i mean, but i, the companies that she's starting to look strongly. now i see what often happens when a government comes to name is a new coverage inherited inherits. it's at the time when the economy is just starting to improve and get so that the benefit from a kind of like i said, i mean outside this on. so that's not a great disney pulled well in the new child said, i'm grateful these i think it will in the way and how to, you know, by this into the better shape than it was. but they're still massive challenges. they'll be face and you know, let's say, i don't know if the dates you know, how well they going to do. i wouldn't buy for deceptively, but anyway, but so, but let's say now as a russian, i'm clearly biased and it will weld towards the western politicians. but if we look at their reactions to the debate, as well as to the general discourse and the west, coming from the global south, it's pretty clear that people around the world find this style and the substance of

politics quite debates. i wonder what influence do you think it may have on the, you know, international relations more generally? what i think, you know, what's happening. so even if the brake fluid thing is really, really important because i'm like the g 7, which is just an exclusive club. but any till to kind of the most wealthy countries in that kind of west and the us dominated group committed bricks is trying to kind of go and add this discussion to include all the old countries in the, in the developing world, in the same mass. so very interesting area right now in terms of actually in making sure that so people mask a less nebraska, you know, parts of asia, a more involved and these kind of big discussions by go, i mean that's all you as well, don't worry about discussion. so i think the focus is primarily on practical uh, working projects, something that yeah, and they don't deliver rather than being something of that sort. of course it is, but the point is involved in that why and they have, have a say, the know can't kept as these kind of small, exclusive clubs, you know,

a lot of the g. so the thing that simple and movement as you know, you know, people's thoughts kind of waiting selves of the belief that we know that in the us we trust somebody that need to worry about anything else. and i think, you know, that's, that's a well 70 big, so they get is they must of want to watch it when it's going to decades. well, even if they wanted to trust in the united states, i'm in the have spent, if they are to do that and you're saying the, i'm just saying that, you know, well, and then at the end of the day, i mean, it's uh, sort of the, the exact reverse of, uh, the american soul spyware. i mean, even if you one that'd be associated with the west, it's, you know, your own self preservation instinct doesn't let you do that very easily. anyway, it's a proud, it's been great talking to you as always, thank you. very much for that. thank you. so that'll be to see you again. and thank you for watching hope this. there again, was a part of the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the part of rick sanchez. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new shelf. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. what could i please or do the have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do,

don't want my show state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time. but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change dwayne, say the live on most go within the informing us an arrangement mode is set to arrive in the russian capital on monday. the laser is looking to boost his country's already flourishing. ties with mountains got the lot to move the landscape as often face any potential keys need the a so it must design the youth with t if it comes off the hungry department has to meet the russian president to discuss peace. talking an outcry from the you official i am, i am a friend of what i'm saying that the audience will set them up front of the piece. i'm looking for the shortest path because the way to stick this war and create the