so not as good bye for now, the the, i'm actually under time. see welcome back to going under grenville ca single around the world from the u. a key member of the energy alliance. opec with the boulevard and republic of venezuela, venezuela, with the greatest known oil reserves in the world just celebrated independence day, despite being targeted by major nations with cruise, sanction starvation and terrorism for refusing to be a washington vessel states. later this month it faces presidential elections. meanwhile,

the us state department might insubordinate proxy war through ukraine and genocide in gaza. it may be the dying days of the binding. the regime is just announced. it will participate in talks the day off to tomorrow with president mate doors, governments and venezuela in the new book, corporate qu, venezuela, and the end of us and by the grace owns on your power and build drawers on our own investigations and revelations, from julia, massages, wiki leaks on. yeah, joins me now from northern virginia. tiny. a thanks so much for coming on going underground. finally, i'm not sure whether you'd be known before an amazing book. and before we get onto the brilliant book that everyone needs to read, even if they're not interested in venezuela, we have julian his on his brother. uh gabriel. uh, shipped an ongoing undergrad on saturdays episode. your book references wiki leaks many times. epic or office from julian? why have you told gabriel shipped in that you didn't expect julian to me? extradited to virginia way if you've just moved here. yes, i did actually see him about i guess almost 2 months ago when he was meeting

with us officials hoping to get some sort of deal through which fortunately came, came to life, came to fruition in the last few weeks and told him that deep down in my heart, i didn't believe the us political class, the elite that has been split between wanting to drone bomb or, or carry out dry out this persecution of assigned. and, and the fear that actually bringing him here would ignite even more of a pro free speech. and pro assigned to movement in the united states. i know that people like yourself and high profile journalists all across the world have acted as a voice for a song and an advocate for him during this time. but from the perspective of the us citizen, what i witnessed over the last years as he languished and bell marsh,

what were was, was the emergence of the movement of just average us people all across, mainly in new york and washington who would to make their presence known as powerful institutions, such as the biden justice department, or the truck justice department for that matter. camping outside of the d o j, i think it was 2 or 3 years ago. they actually had a birthday party for julian outside and said that we're here cutting cake and it has the honor to tell them us justice department that we have a constitution here. we have a 1st amendment rights to free speech, and i know people also in new york who every thursday uh, a bernadette and chuck these activists would actually go to the new york times office and pass out flyers about as long his case put pressure on, on on the journal is that actually depend on this constitution in this right to free speech to do their own work and make the case that the continued persecution

of designs would be damaging to them as well. and i, i do believe that if, as long as came here, it would not only invigorate that group which would have a presence outside of the prison in his court room and ultimately gain media attention. i do believe that if the actual step of taking him bringing him here to the united states had, had occurred, that it would force, even mainstream pundits and mainstream newspapers to begin a discussion about free speech. and our rights are constitutional rights in this country. but frankly, i don't think the political establishment were prepared for. they would much rather i think, prolonged his imprisonment in bel large for as, as long as they could. and, and let that be the punishment because they might have to deal with their own public. if, if that trial were to have actually gone through. yeah, you mentioned drone boom of course. uh they did get close though to killing julian

as lounge the ca, the u. k. the new york times, arguably that's what niels mailed, so the you in special were up to and georgia to all the program they were collaborated with cnn. and the guardian in this, of course, the you are, the greys are, and the founder of the ways are max told us it's being targeted. so what does the assange case mean and the deal he made to save his life mean for you and your sources at the grace of as the precedent that this guilty please. that is definitely concerning for any journalist. because what, what julian did is something that all journalists do collect information from sources and ask for more. so it is not something that i expect to though to, to have a chilling effect in the work that we do. because if anything and julia's example has only served to make all of us stronger, he's, he's such an inspiration for me personally. that's why i put that at the graph in the book that quote, from his, if wars can be started by live,

peace can be started by truth. and i think that that is the the mentality and at that all journalists should have. and that, that's the symbol that he's come to represent through his persecution and that journalist like myself, max erin kit, wyatt, others at the gray zone and all throughout the united states. look to julian and look to what you weeks as an example. look to weeks of a source, something that i just want to emphasize is that many of the report it, much of the reporting in my book, dependent on wiki weeks files. for example, the n g o unit, the, the global network run by o 4 and the national endowment for democracy. these groups that kind of creates seemingly grass roots, organizations that are actually products for the us state department and, and redeem change act as rename,

change outfits worldwide. we know about the inner workings of those groups because of what you weeks because of the state department cables because of the strat for leaks that describe these activists, including those and venezuela that are dealt with in my book and basically running around the world and over throwing governments that the us does it like, and those are direct quotes that we, we may have known that to be true just from a report a and, and what we suspected to be true about these groups. but we have quotes and hard evidence of so much because of what we do is provided us years ago is really a true and a gift that keeps on giving. we're going to do with that here in the book. you compare julian's assassination be attempted assassinations on union as, as to the case of alex sub. just tell us who alex is. i understand. in the past few weeks, he's being pointed to the door of in his way president debit or as a investment um ministry. yes. alex top is

a venezuelan diplomat. he's colombian born but early on in that you've used a revolution while the rest of columbia is business sector was boycotting venezuela . essentially he saw an opportunity and became very close to the government and ultimately ended up winning major contracts to build a public housing in venezuela. and then also to provide supplies for the flat food program. this is a program that i've witnessed firsthand and venezuela, and it's really something that's credited with having curve the effects of us sanctions at the height of us sanctions or the facts of the obama administration's national security declaration saying that venezuela was a national security threat. sorry to interrupt obama tried to stop the population of venezuela millions, tens of millions of people after i get killed. because that act, that decision immediately cut the venezuelan private sector and stayed off from

international credit lines and made it very difficult for international shipping companies to go to then as we left. so there were incredible shortages. people were starving at that time. and so the government actually initiated a program to deliver subsidized food and housing supplies to millions of families across the country and attacked alex of this business man with when a, with, with traveling around the world to turkey and elsewhere, to supply products for these, for these boxes i've seen, for example, turkish pasta and oil cooking oil arrive and these boxes of the homes have been as well as when i was staying there. and according to an opposition allied economists that i cite in the book, this program really prevented mass fannan and starvation and venezuela. it was in direct intervention in the economy that the material government made in order to basically mitigate the effects and things in this hybrid economic war. and so the

united states was not very happy with alex up in this program. they may, elliot abrams the trunk venezuela envoy would basically criticize it as an oil for food program or a bribery program to get venezuelans to, to vote for the matter of government and lead abrams of war, criminal in el salvador foothill del missouri to have massacre. yes. indeed who and, and the main character in the iran contra affair, who for some reason ended up running both venezuela and iran policy for trump. not the best candidate for that job, but i guess it also revealed the criminal nature of the us, deep state through his, through his presence and administration. but so as part of their war on the venezuelan people and effort to star them, the us government eventually cooked up a case, an indictment against alex top just as they did with julia sonjee. remember,

his indictment was kept secret until he was actually in custody. where he could be transferred to the united states and that's what happened with alex saw he was on a triple one day to iran and stopped to fuel his plane in k birthday on the african coast, the west african coast and, and all because the us and my fun, peo, trump, secretary of state writes about this, and his memoir had gotten an idea of word that that sob was going to be landing there. they immediately pressure the government in prya in the capital, a k birthday to arrest alex saba. even though there was no indictment that he was aware of, there was not even an inter pull warrant, in fact the african, the echo was for the port of the region of the west after ultimately determined that the inter full red notice that was used in order to justify his arrest was

actually issued after his detention. so the reason that this case compares to julian's is because not only is this an example of the united states keeping an indictment secret and then the pounds being on a subject once they saw the opportunity. but more so, more importantly, it shows that the us security state use it's jurisdiction applying to the entire planet. you know, there's actually not even in there was not an existing extradition treaty between the united states and k birthday, but through pressure including outright bribery such as a signing, multi $1000000.00 investment in economic investment packages with the government and keep bare and, and also investing millions of dollars and a revamp of the u. s. embassy in the capital there, the government ultimately agreed to extradite a sob to the united states. and he did spend a little over a year about a year and

a half in miami present celebrating trial. but once they got him here, most of the money laundering charges that they, that they had initially set against him were thrown out in the case ultimately fell apart and and, and sob was treated in a prisoner swap. and now he's back in venezuela and guess wasted no time getting back to work. but it was a lesson because not only should the international law in the sense that the us jurisdiction doesn't apply to keep there. they can just go in there and arrest somebody where us authorities don't technically have, have a jurisdiction. but it shows that even diplomatic immunity went out the door when it comes that when it, when it serves united states because alex thought was a diplomat. so even if he was guilty of the crimes that they alleged, they had no authority, no right to go after him in the way they did just as they had no right. to go after julius on your paper bill,

i'll stop you there will from the grades on journalist and or through a corporate group and his way there in the end of us empire after the spring, the hello and welcome to across the board. here we discussed some really the,

the welcome back to going under, right. i'm still here with the grades on your pattern below is are of corporate to venezuela and the end of us m. and your input one. you were telling me about trump officials, some of them uh, accused of uh, aiding genocide in the previous incarnations in previous administrations for all of us down roger waters. they endorsed your book, tucker carlson, endorsed your book. you talk about how you were on his walk. news show and donald trump watched that episode of tucker costs, and will you explain what was really going on with the secret state deep states actions under the trump administration against venezuela? do you think good trump too, if he's elected in the november, will understand that he was being used to destroy venezuela for, for other reasons. i think that trump's instincts on, on venezuelan, the euro,

or actually correct based on what i read in the memoirs of trump, administration officials, particularly john bolton writes about how trump on multiple occasions would ask to meet with president montero and resolve the problem. the crisis with ben is we let directly, and that he was actually skeptical about one why to didn't want to issue the initial recognition of white o as president under his name, but was ultimately convinced to do so by mike pence, who held a phone call with gladto the night before and was apparently taken by him and at bolton for whatever reason was present for that phone call and really driving this coup policy. but bolden complains that trunk kind of just wanted to settle this and he kind of saw monroe eventually sama dura was acting as a tough cookie. those were the words that the washington post, i believe put out there around the same time that tucker had that conversation. with me that i also write about in the book during which trumpet to

a he explained that trump told him that he understood that vote was crazy on, on ben his with feeling that if you listen to him on everything he would be in world war as $12.00, and $3.00. the issue is that like when it comes to israel, for example, in the united states policy isn't necessarily that according to the interest of americans or, or this country, but a small, special interest group, a lobby and the cuba venezuela exile lobby, which is very prevalent, profound in florida is extremely, is extremely powerful because florida is a state that any us president and have to wait. and it's one of the major battleground states and, and the population. they're made up of people that have fled the revolutions in cuba and venezuela over the years and other, other progressive of governments across the region. they've settled in florida and

they've created a base of influence where and this is their number one issue. they want to use essentially the us government, as muscle in order to regain power back in their own countries because they're the lead that were replaced by these revolutions. and that group is very powerful and the republican party and on the democratic side as well in florida. and so i can't maintain a lot of confidence that that as the president's regardless of any, not even joe biden has been willing to reverse this to decision and reverse the recognition of good. why know, even while engaging in direct talk with the venezuelan government because it is just a hot political issue actually just on hand by doing that. sorry to interrupt joan bolton's actually being on this show where he said he tried desperately to unsuccessfully to dissuade drum from having that meeting with the door. i'm just going to quickly ask actually as well aside from your book is what do you make of

bolivia? because luis asa was on this show and i was kind of surprised when present the president to believe you didn't really respond to my questions about m a 6 and the reuters news agency and british involvement in the trying to destroy democracy. in bolivia, we will carry bolivia with us, you know, mobile phones, of course, with the lithium. even morales is now fighting with louise also even morales the, the inspiration behind the change in bolivia. is that true vitamin behind it? that is what i've heard. that is what i have heard from my contacts on in bolivia and people that were very confused by how this to played out. what was it about 2 weeks ago now? it was a very short lived to i had someone tweeted at me that they had ordered a pizza and by the time it came ahead of the oven there, the crew was over. and yeah, it was that that was pretty much out played out. but i also wasn't surprised that

it fizzled out so quickly because i was in bolivia in 2020 the end of 2020. 0, in the midst of the last military actually qu, occupation, and there was a coo and 2019 that violently ousted able morales from power after he won re election. and the military hunter was installed. that was, oh they, they loved to show their voice in history the night before. and basically they tried to delay a vote. they initially said or military government with an interim government. but because the libyans across the country are actually armed and threatened to go on strike and push even toward a possible civil war without a vote, even that military punter was forced to hold an election. and that is how are they won and came back into power. and so what i learned there is, aside from the politics, of course, that there's always been fighting and political parties, people struggling for

a power and authority. and i see that some. but that is underway, and in math right now, there is obviously tension between the hours they faction and the the morales backend. but that what you can count on with olivia is that the people are not going to tolerate a foreign back to or any, or is it shades of ecuador? like crew, promoted a protege like the lending moreno. it turned out to be as a, as a man i spoke to the president of bolivia. you know, we don't know yet basically whether he's an acid or the binding administration or we don't know. but it's always tough. i suppose when you're dealing with the economists or financial actors in your administration, and that is, of course, with ours they was, he was the economy minister under morales. and sometimes those people are more connected to international finance or for an interest than someone coming out of other ministries in the government. but we invited for the presidency to come back

on the show in the book. you talk about um, very important music figure actually in my child. and he was a sign to sex pistols with his parents, money, richard branson, that made headlines all around the world version found richard branson with his bizarre concept. just to just tell me about the influence attempted influence of richard branson on trying to sponsor well if you read your book, i mean the the in effect he's, he's um helping to catalyze uh must of ation and death in venezuela. yeah. he was the cultural element in this corporate cool. this was in february of 2019, just a month after the trump administration announced its recognition of why though the shadow government and venezuela and part of the threat that came down afterwards were for awhile. and i was in venezuela at the time,

it seemed as actual as if actual war between us and venezuela could break out. because the united states, citing the humanitarian, made the current crisis in the country that the us government had actually exacerbated through its sanctions policy and driven through a sanctions policy. and i think i make that case pretty clearly in the book why us sanctions and financial policy are to blame for bent as well as crisis. didn't prevent us from yes. turning around and saying, because of the starting venezuelans, we're going to compile this humanitarian aid on the border in columbia. and because monroe is such an evil dictator, will not accept for an aid. not even from elliot abrams, the man known to have smuggled weapons to the sand that needs to, or i'm sorry to the contras during the, during the war against the sand. and he's doesn't nicaragua, through humanitarian aid shipments that was actually his strategy decades prior in the region. so monroe, such an evil dictator, he won't accept our age,

so we're going to push it across the border with u. s. military equip the trucks. and this was a very tense time when the u. s. military had a presence all across venezuela's, a border with colombia, and it would have just ended there if not for richard brands. and he made it a much bigger cultural and international event by holding this concert in cooper ty, in one of the poorest regions of columbia actually where people were quite me in need of humanitarian aid themselves. they just happen to be a us allies states. so nobody cared, and he can be in this massive a stadium or stage and paid for a major artist from south america to perform their for well, i kind of say it was like a culture. a code show for the us is regional instruments, their tools,

all of the us allied presidents in the region. and uh, louisa mad road, then secretary general of the organization of american states all came to this concert and it got coverage and rolling stone and billboard magazine. and all of these newspapers, i probably would have paid no attention to the situation. venezuela. if not, if not for a, some branson's asked there, but it didn't come without criticism. roger waters did a great job marketing brands. and at the time, basically saying this building here doesn't actually care about anybody. he's just essentially acting as a tool of us and to trans atlantic, gemini, and well hire there. the book is role of uh, bizarre luis um i grew uh, as you say, who for round door in minnesota. strange turned around to me show by chalet, a hero during the us back dictatorship. in chile, strange turnarounds. we don't really understand why the culpability run in your

book is the green bar. as johnson moody's agency, univision, the mouth pieces and cnn, bbc royces, wall street journal bloom, but yeah, usually people have to read the book because it all is i just wanna find the say why you say in the book that hooton's related move to save the people that don't yet was somehow decisive in saving venezuela's wouldn't uh, to the war in europe costing hundreds of thousands of ukrainians got to do with the saving of lives in venezuela. it is. this is a, a very clear illustration of the follies of us imperial overconfidence because under trump, in order to pressure the venezuelan people into recognizing a shadow government that the us, it installed a good one. why know, at trump actually band the sale of venezuelan oil and us markets and this was a relationship that has gone back almost a century since the discovery of it as well an oil. we've had entire pipelines and

an infrastructure built oil refineries here in order to pump as well an oil in to us gas stations. and at the time, venezuela was supplying roughly 7 percent of us oil imports. and over night, when that band came down, russia's say a share of the us, oil in port market jumped 7 percent. and i show that graph in my book, it's inverse. so the suggestion there to me is that russia was perhaps buying the venezuelan oil and selling it back to us, which is a ridiculous example of how our policy fails. but even if they weren't, they were selling us about 10 percent of our imports went by and joe biden came along and decided in 2022 after the the special military operations was launched in, in ukraine. that hey,

then trump the, i'm sorry, bite and decided to issue his own embargo of oil this time against russia. and so we've been just a few years. the u. s. government had cut off it itself. and i say that's why i argued be sanctions are basically sanctions on us citizens because it just resulted in our oil prices skyrocketing, which can result in inflation all over because oil prices dictates the price of everything. and so buying in panicked and actually went onto venezuela. sent a team there to begin direct talk with them. i drove government and as i said, even though they haven't reversed the decision to recognize a fake government in venezuela, they did begin using some sanctions, which now they slap back when they, when they feel like it for political reasons. well that's, that's something to watch out for anyway, the negotiations on wednesday we'll have to have you back is the story continues and influences perhaps of november's election, who knows any power bill. thank you. thank you action. and that's it for the show

of continued condolences to those were even by you k u. s. u, i'm genocide will be back with a brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch by the social media. if it's not sensitive, we'll country and have to our child going under mtv or normal dot com to watch new and old episodes going undergrads. he's up in the all the same rom, just don't you have to shape house after kids and engagement because the trails when so many find themselves world

support, we choose to look for common ground the the lies around most go with the indian prime minister as in the russian capital for talks with president foods and a 2 day visit is new run promoting us foreign trip of this new tub in on the hello hello from a very seen a couple of months ago. we all keeping a very close eye on your end, provided some place and thought that we could oversee, has better to pay, drive off a road less than a plummets or a way to behave with x putting out of this and jump. so this our, the russian defense ministry accuses ukrainian officials of finding hysteria to get more money from weston phone. so it's not, as most go stays, kids own as defensive.