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[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. oh, going natal general secretary stilton bird claims, a russian victory in the ukraine. conflict is the biggest risk to the us led military blocks. this is all the more reason russia will achieve its goals in this proxy war, the cross talking nato. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he is a former c. i a analyst in washington. we have wumer, liam. he is a political scientists author and radio talk show host, and in salt lake city, we crossed to david pine. he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security. all right,

gentlemen. crosstalk rules. in fact, that means it can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate re let me quote, the outgoing general general said try and make yourself number of the said a russian victory and ukraine would change the global system. well, i actually agree with him and i think it wouldn't be a bad idea. go ahead, right. as well. i'm reminded that just 3 weeks ago to chain himself talked about starting back and said that, you know, he dealt with them when he wished prizes in the doorway and at that point he showed no signs of dementia. this is the thing i remember about stone. burge, most of all, is his full pod grunt day before the d u parliament on let's say, of september 7 last year where he said, you know, the russian. so for those said deal. yeah. you know, if,

if you stop tries to get you crazy and so we was not in days so it was no room for and they go all way. well is a reset. oh is, and the store, they have a big got. the guy looked the kind of the bag, right? that it is you create a day. so this time we communicate is pretty much the same as last time. well, we all agree where that seems appropriately, conditions are right. but the whole thing has to do with russia needing reassurance, right? that ukraine will be neutral and nobody seems willing to even enter chain that notion. so maybe stall bird is showing signs now of incipient, so it may be mid term dementia. well, the, the well, but we, it's hard to say with him as an individual that i can clearly say the, as an organization, it's 75. okay. it started a little early in the case of nato, but there is certainly a demented point of view there. wilma, one of the interesting things it was, we had a pending unofficial saying,

nato is preparing for a prototype for a protracted wars. i thought it was a defensive alliance. so i mean they, they, they, they constantly blur what their mission is here. i mean, well, if you're defensive alliance, why do you have to expand? no one's explained that to me. well, it's a defense. it's supposed to be a defense of alliance. i think the n a, a nato is a north atlantic. they are trying to expand into the pacific. they talk about championing human rights, but they somehow decided to invade libya. they can't seem to understand and what their mission truly is. and also it's important understand that really, their mission has their tenure, their mission has passed and i think the leadership knows that the, that the jig is up. they know that their time is over,

but they're sitting in this vacuum talking to themselves and encouraging themselves . so that they can reinforce their own insecurities. i mean we see for example in the washington post, they say that they're trying to trump proof of nato. and in order to prevent trap from doing any damage, tomato or to prevent the elimination of nato itself. well, that right there tells you that they clearly understand that their time is wayne and final point. as they talk about, they have to have victory in ukraine. the premise that they're using is because if russia wins, they will take over europe take over the world and then move on to the mon. no. what that demonstrates is that nato itself will collapse, and i don't know how that they can expand geographically, but they don't have any poets. they're out of weaponry. so who are they going to fight and what are they gonna fight with?

well, you know, david, the whole point, i mean, if you look at the origins of nato, which kind of makes sense, that was the cold war of the soviet union, had its own military block, the warsaw pact, and came into existence after the establishment of nato. it was an ideological struggle and of primarily for the soviet union was to maintain its gains and the 2nd world war and to have security against a revenge as west germany, weak cetera, etc. but then the nato of today doesn't think in terms of security at all, because because if you had a security architecture in europe, you wouldn't need nato because it wouldn't be a new architecture would include russia. and they were with russia that we have, it's against russia without russia. that's nato is afraid of that, because then it would risk its own existence. david, a absolutely right, yeah. so nato was a lot of the best of the lions up until the end of the soviet union. when the war

soft act was disbanded, nato should have thought well, the biggest span shortly thereafter as well. 1994, when all russian troops were withdrawn from eastern europe. um, at this point uh, you know, natal began to be in advance of the alliance with uh, its uh, brutal bomb you know, uh of serbia yugoslavia and 1999. and uh, is this been mentioned its continued in with, uh, live use syria, um and to now in the pre and uh, there's uh, you know, the only the only path to choose security for nato never states is by having some kind of mutual security braver notice of the event i with the, with russia, right, as there's really no other path. and so, like, but david, we, we had that with the soviet union with the helsinki process. we had that, okay, the indivisibility of security. we had that, okay. and, and, and re now the us as a noun, so they will deploy previously band,

new killer capable missiles to germany. we're going backwards re, we had the i n f treaty. we're going backwards re yeah, peter, you know, i go back to the abm treaty, which gave a strategic stability for 30 years, 3 decades. count them. i was instrumental in that treaty. i was so chief of the soviet foreign policy bridge. and we told kissinger and x and the russians are really serious about those. they didn't want to spend themselves into oblivion and they were afraid to try and it was good to see a little march on them. we provided the a problem where i they had the trust but verify. we provided the verification stuff and and that was in it in scott ritter as word sort of my my life's work. no stays. okay. now you have scott ritter is life's work. the neutral,

the immediate range, nuclear forces created. come put that last that 30 till years. probably get out of that. and now as you say, there's a special arrangement where new medium range, ballistic missiles are going to go with the german or just like the pershing two's way back in the eighty's for god's sake were destroyed them in the eighty's. it surprised the hell out of me that we could agree with the rushers to destroy a whole class of nuclear missile, but we didn't. now we're back to square one or even worse. so i have some words to say about the f sixteens as well, but perhaps go ahead and go ahead and go ahead, go ahead, right, go ahead as well. you know, i was thinking back to when f sixteens or got came to the for a bite, who was in japan, but most fell after losing hundreds of thousands of ukrainian troops. right. i zalinski goes off to tokyo to the g. 7 we're biting is, is that where your last fight in turn? so sullivan says what we're gonna do? i'm the how about?

yeah, let's give eps exchange and that's when biden's in house here. so he's going to let our allies give them metric state. now that's the kind of decision making. i mean, did they check with the pedagogy, the checklist? no, no, no. that's we need those up right away. now what's gonna happen when the f? 16 is good shot down. yep. and the, the other stuff puter is out. all these same people, there's a well missed the present. yeah, we have this a low you blow your mind. you look player weapon. so maybe that's the only day we have now. well, i really was ready to, i'll tell it says, well, i'm ready that i mean, the, the only the only way forward for nato visa, the ukraine, is escalation and which really puts it stakes the very existence of ukraine. and as, as ray is pointed out, they entering into the realm of thinking about a new killer war. i mean, this is going into the realm of insanity. go ahead and watch it as it is already in

the realm of insanity in what re points out very, very clearly is there is no strategy here. there is when you just say we were losing, what do we do now? oh, let's give them f sixteens. there's what is the desired outcome in results and if the desired outcome end result is the, the do dissolving the russian federation. that's just not going but right, but we all know that's the goal. we all know that that's, that's just and i want to walk to the moon, but i don't think that that's going to happen anytime soon. and what they're willing to do is risk nuclear annihilation in pursuit of a fantasy. so that the military industrial complex or the mickey met as re,

likes to refer to it can generate more revenue. yeah. ok, david, that's a good point in lieu of a strategy which just got and keep enriching the arms producers. okay. inside the beltway, so they can buy another house in the hamptons. go ahead. yeah, i mean, the strategy a big guy is for the us to maintain its uh, its iron grip on, on data, which is really just uh, you know, it's part of the americas liberal empire and consist of, uh, imperial dependencies are united states. what we need to do here in the us is to transform us back to republic from empire and, and i think president trump is moving, you know, forward in that direction. with the plan to restructure nato. hold us troops out of the eastern europe. perhaps even a hand over the david we're getting, we're approaching the bank here, but it took trumpets elected on that platform. don't you think they'll in peach him before and all your ration? well, it depends on whether there's, it's a, you know, it's

a democrat control house. i mean, if he wins, we're going to, you know, republicans will keep the house. so i okay. okay, well i, i think i'm honest, i'm being kind of facetious. but i think that they would have someone, lindsey graham would lead, read me the charge, right, gentleman, i have to jump in here. we're gonna go to a hard break amounts about hard breaks. we'll continue our discussion on nato at 75 years old. stay with our the, at the end of the 19th century, africa was divided between european empires, which mercilessly oppressed the indigenous population. modern day tends and he used to be a german colony. the germans levied heavy taxes on local drives,

and use them as free labor on cotton and plantations. so pheasants protest turned into an uprising against the colonial list. under the banner of the religious movement of the magazine, margie, it was led by a man named kinsey, the of the rebels use guerrilla tactics because they did not have the power to rush the german army in head on confrontation. but the germans were not able to suppress the resistance of the guerrillas either. so the invaders decided to start that population to day. one of the commanders of the german troops, captain wagon time, wrote only anger and one can lead to final submission. military actions alone will remain more or less a drop in the ocean. the blasphemous plan works. the invaders burned villages and fields. in 2 years, germany deliberately starved up to 300000 people did that later. the monstrous

experience of the 2nd right in tanzania was copied by the 3rd right lead by the nazis in order to extra pay the be both of europe. the on march, the 22nd 1943. during the great petrie, i'll take all the shirts and munch fatality and 118 run down the belly, mercy and village of cutting ship of the new wish in luxury. is that or yes or no? this one, most of the rooms 240 you to you. $149.00 people died, including $75.00 children of age was practically wiped off the face of the la new blue loves of the orchard and couldn't charlie was noisy and will you put it as follows? oh shoot. was i really, i really usually its own you feeling yourselves the infamous battalion responsible for the atrocity included over $100.00 ukranian nationalists from west to new,

right? from the tall split the price of the simple garden. so far as the new e phone, that's a long list the you just pursue and you know, i'm with them. you as customers declassified criminal cases from the central archive of the k g, b, a better rules shut the light on the atrocity. and on so numerous questions that have remained an onset so many is watch on see the welcome back across stock were all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you, we're discussing nato at 75 years old. the ok, let's go back to re, obviously,

nato is not in the mood. maybe it's incapable of compromise, even if in its own best interest, it's unwilling to compromise. but you know, as they're celebrating in washington, what comes to mind for me or broken promises and let me enumerate here, not one step in east we met, that's 1st one, ukrainian neutrality, another lie, indivisibility of security. i've already mentioned that on this program here. and of course we all remember the mens process here. so um even if there were miraculously a piece feler, why would the russians believe anything coming out of the current administration, particularly considering who is in the, in the oval office? right. those are russian words, new for me. uh, those are the initials this most lovely. okay. incapable of reaching an agreement. okay. that's what they use now for the us. and in addition to the 3 you mentioned,

i would simply say that not many people know the biden told to change directly in person on the telephone, on the 30th of december. yes, that the us for not deployed offensive strike muscles and ukraine 3 weeks later and geneva loved with us approach blinker nation. what about that? we're talking about that now. i'm like, yeah, that's that. but forget about that. we have the right to put the opposite side process and you agree. it maybe we're talking about how many would put it in, but so there was another one. and last but not least, of course, most as there's a lot of the agreement that was made out there in the, in the east stumble. and march april of 2022, where the initials were on those agreements and bodies. johnson came and took the u . k. and so now and no agreement where none of these damn russians, we're gonna bite on bite on and we'll give you everything i need to provide a while. so then, so you made a very poor choice, but now we see the results of all that. well, i mean i'm,

but i'm sure his bank account is a benefit enormously and the people around him. i mean, he's not even the legal president. okay. he's head of the cube regime. well, and one of the interesting things that i've been watching over the years is, you know, we, even at this summit and watching them, they're talking about expansion. okay. of continuing to do so in the balkans a and then going into central asia. i, if i'm not mistaken, an official from armenia was invited to the, to the conference so, but it seems to me that ne toes emissions are not just as we see it right now. but they want to replace the united nations. we have, there's a rules based order. they have their own sense of, of legality is against international law. it's against international institutions. and this is, this is kind of nato's a, it's

a vehicle for the united states maintain, had gemini, go ahead and washington. and as we know with the rise of the shanghai cooperation organization and the operative word, there is cooperation with the rise of of bricks with the rise of the organization of the state health states. the time for this imperialist expansion has ended the folks at nato. they just haven't gotten the memo yet. and because now the ship nato is a militaristic organization. and when you look at the seo, when you look at bricks, when you look at the shanghai, when you look at the health states, they are operating collectively from an economic perspective. and this takes me quickly back to what i'm one of my favorite films, the godfather, when, when, when virgil, the turks, the lots on says tom, he says look, i don't like violence, i'm

a business man. blood is expensive. and the united states wants to and especially things to lindsey graham spread all the ukrainian blood he can get his hands on while these other countries are moving beyond that, starting their own currencies so that they can engage in trade. which leads to development. yeah, uh and development and gender security as well. david, you know, also kind of parting shot from the, the nato conferences targeting china. be a, it's claims of dual use technology. it's selling to the russians. they've never been really clear about that. but, you know, a china is enabling russian ukraine, but as a nato is enabling other, more as well in ukraine they, they never seem to get the balance. they are go ahead david. yeah, it's extremely hypocritical for the us and data to argue that china is not allowed to aid aid to russia militarily or strategically. well, you know, the us is providing

a long range missiles with which she hit the russian targets deep inside rush and even, you know, potentially missile defense radar. so to take out a, you know, chuck, sort of a, a for us is a nuclear command control system. so uh, yeah it's, it's, uh, its time that, uh, we establish kind of a, a revised international order which uh, reflects your national order is it currently exists with russia. china, us is a, is the only degree super powers been without this empire of the u. s. is established in, in europe, it re, you know, the ins and outs of government and decision making. who is making this a nato policy in washington, who is making ukraine policy in washington, who's making russia policy in washington. as fellow solid name sullivan. i don't

know the name lincoln, and so a supporting actor or austin and victoria nolan, the hiding in the shadows for the ladies from still in the worst wing there. and they're in control. and you know, maybe the best evidence of that is that on the way out of that is just this should ministration is on the way out. and they decide that they'll pick china now is the bit know why, as the enable are, as they say a and as the you know, as the blame for all this stuff. and if you look at china and they've already, as david said, call it out as hypocritical. but if you also look very closely at how the world is divided now, and india just having come from a hot summer with food chain. and you looked at the nato folks, so did anyone notice anything this? think about all those nato poke. so $32.00 of them. you're all white. you're old. but like the rest of us, ok, they're all white right?

well, in and many of them are from countries that were the great colonial powers. same thing that's exactly right. so the whole world sees that and how we have isolated russia, give me a break with isolated ourselves. and that's is very clear by moti shows that the mosque was very clear by, by this last gash. now as far as data is concerned, and nothing is going to happen in ukraine until after november, when in the us election it takes place. but then data, it's got a really worry about, it's not in jeopardy and whether it's so has any useful usefulness at all, it might be quite well more. i mean that this is the thing, this is a craving choice that they, that nato is made. you know, it's almost like do or die. it's like, as ex, essential, but it's a choice. they don't have to make this choice. they can say, well, you know, we should have a new security arrangement that's, that's what needs to be done. that's what russia offered before. this all happened, but they can't do it or, well,

you put it in the context of do or die. i would put it in the context of do or suicide. because the, the united states via nato started the conflict with russia via ukraine. the united states is trying, it's best to start a fight with china. the tie one there, you know, there's an adage on the corner. don't start, nothing won't be met. and they don't seem to understand that. so if you just stop trying to punch the, the, the adversary and the i in sit down and have some conversations. maybe we can find them avenue to piece. but as gills got here and says, ask them why they're fighting for, and they'll never tell you the economics of war. it was a david, even though there's a lot of bluster, you know, when you think about what, what military capacity to be. don't we take uh, off the table on nuclear capacity,

the military's in, in, in nato. we're not that particularly strong, but they're not really well funded. turkey has the biggest army, they're not getting involved in this at all here. i mean, it's a lot of a bureaucrats in my mind that have really pushed jobs and you know, they're threatening the global war, but this, but they, they don't really have capacity other than a new killer capacity. go ahead david. yeah, this is absolutely true. i mean, uh, the, uh, britain, france and germany each can pro, deploy up to one brigade in eastern europe. whereas, you know, the u. s. can provide more than that. of course, maybe a couple $100000.00 troops if we, if we were to search. but, you know, russia has, uh, 12 combined arms arbys. uh, they might have more now that's, that's how much they start out with. and a by triple the size of their, of their ground forces double this. you know, they increase their military by 50 percent. they increase the military spending by,

by a double in their, their now it's a cold war level. so a spinning in the sizes of their armed forces. so, you know, the us and nato are, are much weaker than it than have been presented in, in a, in a conventional or even just the conventional. and i had a cyber war. i think russian would be victoria is i wouldn't, you know, wouldn't think that they, you know, russian troops would drive to the, to the looks channel, but certainly they could take all of eastern europe without a whole lot of difficulty. right. we got one minute left here. how will history remember this guy and con, tab and washington this week? well, hopefully they'll get paid up below the headlines. hopefully, they'll know that there's adequate proof that russia does not intend to go beyond ukraine, so to speak. the accords in each sample. in march, april 2022 showed that quote, team did stop and then it was double cross their case stopped before it took all

right or ukraine. so why is it going to go to fall into the english channel? so seldom has there been a case where some, some serious as so been adequately debunk beforehand. for god's sake, russia did stop. it's not going to stop now. well, the problem is the domain we're brought out of time. nato doesn't want to stop. that's the problem. i want to take my guess in raleigh, washington and in salt lake city. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r d. so you next time remember prospect, the

car acceptance. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do you have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way you them means legit do when it comes to getting more when defend donasia back to just to counter russia. and i think these innovations going to that are very,

very aware of the fact and they try to use that notion. but they're on the, some of the countries and you'll see people supporting body. what kind of intellect to process is behind these kind of packaging. but you, you stop deep, somebody is crying foul, less las go out, plays the blogs getting off. ok. he's, as people on the confident would need to be quote reprogrammed if we take it for granted from the indian side towards america and from outside, a lot of defense and 1000. trying to help this relationship, washington sends a mixed message saying it's ready for