the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 we're not going to talk about kim philby today. his story is well known. he spied for years on behalf of the soviet union, even after rising to be the director of britain's m. i 6 by agency. but lots and lots of people know that story. today we're going to tell you a spice story that you likely have never heard before. it's the story of charles howard. dick ellis, he was m i 6 is top intelligence officer in the united states during world war 2. dick ellis was born in australia, in 1895, and was a self taught and self trained class school cellist. he went to england on a scholarship in 1914 and almost immediately and listed as a private in the british army. he fought in france during world war one and was decorated for his bravery. he returned to england was promoted to the rank of

captain and transferred to south and then central asia. he was eventually promoted to the rank of colonel. he joined the foreign ministry and enrolled in oxford university where he studied russian and german in 1921. ellis joined the m i 6 and was sent on his 1st assignment to constance and opal. the 1st of many, many foreign assignments, spending much of the 19 thirty's in london ellis was put in charge of m. i 6 wire taps on the german embassy there. translating conversations between 8 of hitler and you'll walk in one ribbon truck for the british government. as it was in 1940 that was important, grew dramatically, he was transferred to new york to be the 2nd ranking british intelligence officer there. he helped the f, b. i who and it's counter intelligence techniques and provided american general william wild bill donovan with the blueprint for what became the office of

strategic services. the predecessor organization to the c i a l. us later learned that the japanese were planning to bump pearl harbor. any warren to president franklin roosevelt of the impending attack through his son, jimmy roosevelt, president harry truman, later, awarded ellis with the american legion of merit for his service to the united states during world war 2. ellis even went on to co found the australian secret intelligence service on behalf of in my 6. and he finally returned to england in 1954. ellis was given more metals than we can name here. and he was seen as one of the greatest intelligence professionals in the history of the united kingdom. he retired in the mid 19 fifties, but the story doesn't end there. when kim selby defected to the soviet union in 1963, after slipping out of a dinner party and a route, a joint m i 5 and my 6 investigation headed by the legendary intelligence officer,

peter wright investigated ellis and a number of other retired officials in an interview with rights so called fluency committee eldest allegedly made a confession that he had provided intelligence to the nazis before the war. he denied ever having otherwise engaged and espionage counter to british interest. but authors, including right, have subsequently accused elis posthumously, of course, of having been a triple agent village that not only was he secretly working for the nazis, but that he was also working for the soviet union at the same time, something that his daughter has staunchly and steadfastly denied. well, there is a new book that has just been published that gets to the bottom of these allegations . the ingles in the mirror, the greatest spice story never told, was written by award winning international best selling author jesse think he joins

us today. jesse, thank you so much for being with us. thanks. don't go to the scene. where do we even begin with this complicated story? i guess the, the best place to begin is of course, at the beginning. so give us an overview of dick ellis's career. what made him attractive to in my 6? he had no formal training or education. why did my 6 think he would make a good spy? uh well think it was uh, was born in australia or in 1995. he had a pretty tough charles old raising. his mother died when he was about 2 or 3 years old. and he was shuffled around funds up and down the so these guys with his drive here because his father essentially couldn't take care of him. and um, he sort of came out of the window, the sort of calmly schoolmaster who started educating dick and dick sort of uh, went to not classes at the university in um,

in melbourne to and managed to get a scholarship to, to the guy. and then he went out to the guy and not a 14 sort of planning to become a student. and of course, the 1st of all broke out and he was, you know, quite a dig around, a soldier he made was injured sort of multiple times on the western front. while he was convalescing in sort of military hospitals, he started studying russian and became quite fluent in russian. and obviously this was as much interest to the uh, british intelligence service and, and they want to people who had a great facility for languages and, and gal. this eventually ended up speaking about non language. and so he was, it was very useful to british intelligence between the was because obviously he

could be sort of sent off to friendship. i think countries generally speaking countries um, and he had a great facility for russian. so it was, you know, the main target of british intelligence between the was the soviet union. so he was very useful. ellis was a star in the united states during world war 2. he trains j edgar hoover's f. b. i . in counter intelligence techniques, he showed wild build donovan. how to create an intelligent service from the ground up. he was close to 2 presidents, any forged a friendship with one of the most difficult men in washington. james hayes was angleton, who later became the c. i is 1st deputy director for counter intelligence. there was no indication during those years that he was anything other than a patriotic british intelligence professional. and then we see reports of a so called confession. several authors have written about it, but was, was it in the actual confession?

could it has been transcribed misunderstanding or could ellis maybe have been trying to protect somebody? yeah, well this is essentially, is what i'm trying to do, you know, the cold mystery of detail as is, is wanting definitely he supposedly confessed to in 90 and 65. so this time, a couple of years after can still be directed to the survey union and of course, intelligence agencies of great britain in the united states were united, brownly, embarrassed by the defection of silsbee. and i'm convinced that they were other savvy in malls, in the mix. and so they went through um, you know, old files. they went through interrogation reports of nazis and being arrested after the sink of a war engine would be interrogated. and in one of these particular reports, there was a, a nazi office that he mentioned to captain ellis, no 1st 9,

just captain ellis, who had been a source for the, the ever have a, the nazi military intelligence service. and this report had sort of ended up on the desk of none of that. none other than config will be back in not at 46 and someone at austin who is this else and can feel the head responded the he had no idea and that no further action needed to be taken. so or in the context is not in the sixty's in our to use after fuel. we have defected paper. we're looking at this file thinking why did control besides that, he didn't know to tell us when the 2 of the work together and why had the file essentially been buried. so the l. a sort of time on the sort of intense suspicion and was cold into an interrogation in london. and he was grilled by the pay to run

the well then why? $5.00 to of course went on or write the book, spar catcher in the 9090s in which he sort of light out is supposedly damning case against the kill us. and, you know, i went and investigated essentially kind of, you know, what they, what the grounds with for ellis bang and nazi and so i be a spy. and kind of the conclusion that there really wasn't much to suggest that he was his boss or either of those enemies during the war or even before the war. and that it was my head actually being protecting his boss, the day of my 6 essentially my feeling is that and, and the evidence would show that a m, i 6, was in fact sort of cooperating with sort of elements of, of nazi germany before the outbreak. of the 2nd world war and this was a deeply embarrassing thing for, for, for great britain, an accusation that boggles the mind that you just noted is the notion that ellis

was working for the soviet cage, u. b. you write this in the book and i quote, the issue of whether ellis is confession exists. i suspect it does in some form, perhaps more of an inconclusive interview than a full blown admission of guilt obscures what is really the core issue. the whole circumstantial case against ellis is so doubtful that he deserves the benefit of the doubt. he was another victim of the cold war. when hysteria and fear overtook sense and reason. when paranoid intelligence agencies on both sides of the atlantic were utterly convinced that there were other fields to be uncovered in court. you go on to say that even if there was a confession. and of course, we don't know if there was, it has to be backed up with evidence. you've gone more deeply into this issue than pretty much any other author ever has. have you on covered any evidence?

and if you have, what was it, was it anything more than circumstantial? well, that means the other guys is biting, is jealous a absolutely crazy, really. and essentially that he sold, you know, the nazis, um the, the organizational structure of, of them are 6 that, you know, he basically provided the nazis only sort of the intelligence that they did before, the invasion of britain. you know that the ellis has been sort of linked to the depths of, of, you know, an act of leslie how'd um, all sorts of stuff. um and really, i mean what, what else is supposed to have confessed to is accepting money at some point when he was a field agent for for him i succeeded in wishing your, and that he had accepted some money in exchange for some in some intelligence. but the thing that i think i was, was involved in was, in fact,

you know, he was involved in selling intelligence. but you know, they jump as a, as an intelligence officer in the field. this is sometimes to show your enemies false information and or to convince your, your enemy that you can be both. and you know that you can become a double license or for an enemy pallet. so i'm more failing is that the ticket was, was heavily involved in, in working against the soviet union. prior to the 2nd world war, the, you know, the, the common enemy of the germans in the, in the british was, was the side of the union. and side to tell us was involved in basically, you know, gaining context in the, the, the russian community that was against the soviet union or the white russians all

the ukrainians who had sort of been dispossessed after the russian revolution. and she wanted to say in, in to communism. so he was, was involved guessing some sort of horse trading of intelligence and at some point possibly accepted some money, which he then spends on himself or, or his family. and my feeling is that in the context of his entire life and the contribution of the mind to west and intelligence, to the, to the more associated for the 1st world war and the 2nd world war. and so he's contribution to the united states to setting up of the, you know, what became the c i a and he is driving intelligence services that he should be given for this in discretion. guessing, thank you for bringing us these insights into take ellis's life. we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with international best selling author

jesse. think about british spine master dick alice say to the. 2 2 2 the more to personalities been the decision you must always displayed the moon on the on the 2nd, but to totally out of me and you have them done by the most value of but we have done most scale. it will. but he really is. he's been looking, we have one of the we like, but the issue the most the i will give you like what the she a little guy enough. are you the diagnosis? you go and people throw both of them good for you saw the number of, again, the subsidies, the guys that she to go into it that was saying was, when will be, i mean, invented with nearly money visits your needs based solely on tv down could have

been yet a lot of money and i think on this could you guys could do that? you want to give us a community dock, a but it gives you a lot to want to people. she's to go mean he goes empty and the i mean the must have gone through. yeah, we a more thing danielle, it's your dad. oh, yeah. one of the guns. yeah. i'm on the internet soon on. but get goes it, give a go down because it will be the, the position, the deep sort of the west on the west on was that the is the septic not to be brought the books to be the only did it gates of good on just the the they are probably her my little story. okay. the model girl to i got you. no

problem. seeing it all out of the know nothing 30 minutes us out in the drive i showed my brother through he was sudden to help people for a lo so now i never looked at searches as being the same. well i guess i lost my list. that's the outcome of the chicago police. it'd be gang chicago is like, could you be a photo of the police? you really think your life as another crap thing. another could have been a doctor or nurse could have been the next president. we can't keep losing people out here the . 2 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with

a claimed international best selling author jesse fink, who has recently published the absolutely outstanding book, the eagle in the mirror. the greatest spice story never told. i definitely welcome back. thanks again for being with us. thanks for jessie. as i said at the start of the program, dick ellis was given more honors awards and metals. then we even have time to list on this show. how is it that somebody so important, so integral to the allied victory in the 2nd world war, so critical to the creation of american spy agencies be so largely forgotten? how is that possible? why is he not among the pantheon of great intelligence officers? well, i guess sooner what a great intelligence officer does is it psych ward in spite of the job is not to reveal too much about what it is that you do. and a managed, or donnelly, you know, when these declarations and awards but e, right, 2 books including

a very important book on the latest versions. and he was a scholar, some refuse to that central asia. and he was a poly got a classical musician. he served as the deputy to william savings, and it's pretty security, coordination in, in the united states and of course, status and, you know, i'd like to publicizing these on exports. but i think alice was, you know, quite the opposite things. someone who really sort of adhered to that, the officials, lakers act and didn't want to get in trouble for colors and they're writing too much of bad things that he was involved with. so investigating his last and trying to sort of put together a picture and exactly who he was. he was extremely difficult, but he was always in the background as you know, these major events. so he was kind of like, you know,

this elegant british intelligence and that he, he was connected to so many important people went to so many and you know, massive organizations and made such a huge contribution to, to, you know, the victory of the allies and the 2nd one that i was just astonished that no one had ever attempted to really kind of for his life together in books. and what i'm, what i quickly discovered was that, you know, there was a reason for that because it was very hard to find anything about i want to get back to these unfounded allegations that was spied for the soviet cage. you be where to these allegations originate. you make a point of saying in the book that there was never any proof that this happened. that ellis adamantly denied it, and that he was allowed to retire quickly, keep his pension and live happily ever after. where did this rumor come from and

what do you think the motivation was in spreading it? well, i mean like i said before, you know, this is nancy offices interrogation, or for past uh, was passed on to, you know, can still be an in came to a lease. and he didn't have any audio detail as was even the she had office spies in london at that time. so you know, they guys later when this particular reports are, was produced, when am i 6? and they say i was, you know, scrambling to find it. there were any of a savvy of malls in the intelligence services. this is the time and us side this report is looked at on a very suspicious. and it was, was bice, we thought that you know, toby was protecting else. and you know, what was, what was the reason bay for the solely to protect it was you know,

would i working in because it's, there was ellis, is the russian soup as far that hadn't been to texas it seemed to be a very sort of simpler in explanation for more, you know, so we had written on this particular report, i would also want to revisit this notion that was, may have fallen on his sort to protect the superior. he may have made perhaps, let's call it a partial confession only in order to protect someone above him. perhaps even the head of in my 6th at the time. who would that have been? and what would have been the motivation in protecting this person? well, there was a guy called the steward, me as you know, which is spelled means is that i pronounce it minutes. so he was the head of m, i 6. at the time it was working. thank him. may us was actually in close contact with admiral mirrors of the, of the, it was one of the main conspirators against it. so you know, the actual, you know,

the not in the office in the mention is kept and it was when he was being interrogated and saying the deputy of 10 years. so, you know, ellis, being in contact with this not to be all circled foster and making a spring contract in years. i would suggest that there was some sort of level of cooperation with collaboration between nazi and in great britain. prior to the outbreak of the 2nd level, and of course, after the 2nd breaking, the signal was not to germany. right? britain were mortal enemies. so i think that it was hardly embarrassing for 3 am on 6 and, and, and take. ellis understood that it is a headset in the service amazing to collaborate and with the gym as was acting

under the orders of student maintenance to essentially work very closely with nancy janet and probably the 2nd one is i've been home can once which to me and he died a few years after ellis's position and you know, make us was, it was a supporter or that was brought up until this is this. it says promoter in the set of entire staples. if continue working at ellis, he never stopped support again. as long as he was elected ellison analysis, loyalty was always with links. and that is, i think the most logical explanation for what else was involved with that involving when it kind says is context was not doing that. she didn't want to give up names

for it and get him to explain something that one of the things you explain to you to day guys. after the end of the signal. after ellis died, his family attempted to clear his name. prime minister margaret satcher, however, refused at the time to either confirm or deny the accusations against elizabeth pincher had made that caused ellis's daughter and sally to return the metals that her father had been given to the british government. was elis ever formally exonerated? and if not, why not? now, it wasn't in full money's on right. it even those whose daughter and had written to the from is are, you know, i can live with satcher as soon as my site is that you refuse essentially. now, by saying, you know that if she were to make this exceptions, ellis, that she would have to call me on other cases and she wants it. so the

b l is family never got the resolution and he's on a license. i was thinking that this is fine and i know that and his daughter was sort discussed with the british government. she actually returned metals and she left u. k. went to live in the non sites bill us as a teacher, he was a canadian intelligence officer. and he also wouldn't accept that, that his father was going to get that, you know, spend news news trying to clear his night. and finally this link, i was contacted by someone who actually knew peter ellison and said that, you know, figure out, sustain date was disgusted. by the fact that installed it, it's the tri,

essentially the americans and the british and the heats is 9 to be solid in the why that is great. so um, so it says it's pretty sad tile really and i think it's sort of symptomatic, it's kind of how, how the media works, the sizes that, you know, people like allegations then people will pay the allegations and gets for phone somewhere else. and no one ever actually follows to actually trying to figure out whether it's turn says so you know, that's what i thought of. so that's what i'm trying to do is present the eric on his account of no one else was that was involved in who he was and so the last ratings the mike up there on on did that it is go to is thank you, jesse, you were fantastic, and so was the story of dick ellis. everybody loves the goods by story. i know i do,

i always have. but what makes by stories so great is that they're either true for their based on truth. this story is different. dick ellis was a patriot. that's what the evidence shows. he was not a spy. he was not a traitor, and rather than having highly paid writers make their money by denigrating the memory of the man who should be celebrated. i'd like to thank our guest. jesse, thanks for being with us today. and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the width of flowers. i'm john here. yahoo, please follow me on some stack at john kerry, uncle. we'll see you next time the . 2 2 the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just

a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really once a better wills and is it just because it shows you fractured images, presented to this, but can you see through their illusions, going underground can only 41 percent of us adults have enough savings to cover a 1000 dollar emergency, if we have record numbers of americans who are on the verge of having their cars repossess more than a 137000000 americans are facing financial hardship because of medical that in america we do have a welfare system in place to help people who are struggling financially, but it's a conditional system you have to prove to the government that you truly need help.

the simplest way, like explain the basic income, is that is like social security. for the rest of us, a basic income would be a monthly payments that would go to everyone. just a $1000.00 a month, no strings attached. use i have, i would like them maybe. i don't know. i just won't go crazy. the reason that i am a fan of guaranteed income because it is this idea that everybody is deserve. and that's just that virtue of your being here. the water is a part of the, the, is it the poly would pose good? isn't the deepest you of us and that in the word part, is it something deeper, more complex might be present there. let's stop without collision. let's go

products or the the do i mean like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. so well, well, more 2 possibilities when you are pressing the little boat, jasmine to the heart, alice almost on the street. well i think the one, the it was just on the doors, the whole affinity of the info said sunday of this. but i've been here in lawrenceville middle east on a couple 100, but off a 104 who. yep. on the inside. on the so.