and saudi arabia, when i was introduced to a man with an unusual name of the last filthy, i commented that he had the same surname as one of the most famous spies in history . kim, filthy of zillow, responded unexpectedly, that kim was his half brother. he told me that their father had been the personal physician to king of the disease. and so the founder of saudi arabia and that for a lifetime of medication, the king had given their father's saudi citizenship. the elder he'll be converted to islam. married a saudi woman had a 2nd family and lived out his remaining days in comfort and re quote. but we don't talk about him. he said, that's an ongoing theme, john curiosity, welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 we're not going to talk about kim feel be today. his story is

well known. he spied for years on behalf of the soviet union, even after rising to be the director of britain's m. i 6 by agency. but lots and lots of people know that story. today we're going to tell you a spice story that you likely have never heard before. it's the story of charles howard. dick ellis. he was m i 6 is top intelligence officer in the united states during world war 2. dick ellis was born in australia, in 1895, and was a self taught and self trained classical cellist. he went to england on a scholarship in 1914, and almost immediately enlisted as a private in the british army. he fought in france during world war one and was decorated for his bravery. he returned to england was promoted to the rank of captain and transferred to south and then central asia. he was eventually promoted to the rank of colonel. he joined the foreign ministry and enrolled in oxford

university where he studied russian and german in 1921. ellis joined m i 6 and was sent on his 1st assignment to constance and opal. the 1st of many, many for an assignments. spending much of the 19 thirty's in london ellis was put in charge of m. i 6 wire taps on the german embassy there. translating conversations between 8 of hitler and you'll walk in one ribbon truck for the british government. as it was in 1940 that was important, grew dramatically, he was transferred to new york to be the 2nd ranking british intelligence officer. there. he helped the f. b. i who and it's counter intelligence techniques and provided american general william wild bill donovan with the blueprint for what became the office of strategic services. the predecessor organization to the c i a l. us later learned that the japanese were planning to bump pearl harbor any warranted president franklin roosevelt of the impending attack. through his son,

jimmy roosevelt, president harry truman, later awarded ellis with the american legion of merit for his service to the united states during world war 2. ellis even went on to co found the australian secret intelligence service on behalf of in my 6. and he finally returned to england in 1954. ellis was given more metals than we can name here. and he was seen as one of the greatest intelligence professionals in the history of the united kingdom. he retired in the mid 19 fifties, but the story doesn't end there. when kim selby affected to the soviet union in 1963, after slipping out of a dinner party and a route, a joint m i 5 m i 6 investigation headed by the legendary intelligence officer, peter wright investigated ellis and a number of other retired officials in an interview with rights, so called fluency,

committee eldest, allegedly made a concession that he had provided intelligence to the nazis before the war. he denied ever having otherwise engaged and espionage counter to british interest. but authors, including right, have subsequently accused elis posthumously, of course, of having been a triple agent. they allege that not only was he secretly working for the nazis, but that he was also working for the soviet union at the same time, something that his daughter has staunchly and steadfastly denied. well, there is a new book that has just been published. that gets to the bottom of these allegations . the eagle in the mirror, the greatest spice story never told, was written by award winning international best selling author. jesse think he joins us today. jesse, thank you so much for being with us. thanks. don't go to the scene, where do we even begin with this complicated story?

i guess the, the best place to begin is of course, at the beginning. so give us an overview of dick ellis's career. what made him attractive to m, i? 6, he had no formal training or education. why did my 6 think he would make a good spy? well together, so i was born in australia and i say 95, he had a pretty tough charles. old he's and his mother died when he was about 2 or 3 years old and he was shuffled around funds up and down the so these kinds of estrada because his father essentially couldn't take care of him. and um, he sort of came out of the window, the sort of the calmly schoolmaster who started educating dick and dick sort of uh, went to not classes at the university in um, in melbourne to and managed to get a scholarship to,

to the guy. and then he went out to the guy and not a 14 sort of planning to become a student. and of course, the 1st of all broke out and he was, you know, quite a dig around his shoulder he made was injured sort of multiple times on the western front. while he was convalescing in sort of military hospitals, he started studying russian and became quite fluent in russian. and obviously this was as much interest to the uh, british intelligence service and, and they want to people who had a great facility for languages and, and they gave us eventually ended up speaking about non language. and so he was, it was very useful to british intelligence between the was because obviously he could be sort of sent off to french speaking countries, german speaking countries. um, and he had a great facility for russia. and so it was, you know,

the main target of british intelligence between the was, was the savvy engine. so he was very useful. ellis was a star in the united states during world war 2. he trained j edgar hoover's f. b. i . in counter intelligence techniques. he showed wild build donovan, how to create an intelligent service from the ground up. he was close to 2 presidents. any forged a friendship with one of the most difficult men in washington. james hazel's angleton, who later became the c. i is 1st deputy director for counter intelligence. there was no indication during those years that he was anything other than a patriotic british intelligence professional. and then we see reports of a so called confession. several authors have written about it, but was, was it in the actual confession? could it has been transcribed misunderstanding or could ellis maybe have been trying to protect somebody? yeah, well this is essentially, is that i'm trying to, you know,

the co mystery as of detail as is, is wanting gently. he supposedly confessed to in 1965. so this time a couple of years have to cancel the defected to the soviet union and of course, intelligence agencies of great britain in the united states were, you know, brownly, embarrassed by the defection of silsbee. and they were convinced that they were other savvy and malls in the mix. and so that way through um, you know, old files. they went through interrogation reports of nazis, the main arrested after the sake of a war and who would be interrogated. and in one of these particular reports, there was a nazi officer who mentioned to captain ellis no 1st 9, just captain ellison, who had been a source for the, the ever have a, the nazi military intelligence service. and this report had sort of ended up

on the desk of none of that. none other than config will be back in northern 46 and someone at austin who was this ellis and kimberly had responded that they had no idea and that no further action needed to be taken. so or in the context is not in the sixty's in our to use, i have to feel we have defected paper. we're looking at this file thinking, why did control we side of the didn't know to tell us when the 2 of the work together and why had the file essentially been buried. so the l a sort of came on to sort of in case suspicion and was cold into an interrogation in london. and he was grilled by the pay to run the call. they, my 5 to of course, went on to write the book spark accurate in the 9090s in which a sort of light app is supposedly damaged case against the kill us. and, you know,

i went and investigated essentially kind of, you know, what they, what the grounds with for ela staying and nazi. and so i be a spy. and came to the conclusion that there really wasn't much to suggest that he was a sponsor, a to revise the enemies during the war or even before the war. and that tell us my have actually been projecting he's both of them on 6 essentially my feeling is that uh and, and the evidence would show that a m, i 6, was in fact sort of cooperating with some sort of elements of nazi germany before the outbreak of the 2nd world war and this was a deeply embarrassing thing for, for, for great britain. an accusation that boggles the mind that you just noted is the notion that ellis was working for the soviet k g b. you write this in the book and i quote, the issue of whether ellis is confession exists. i suspect it does in some form,

perhaps more of an inconclusive interview than a full blown admission of guilt obscures what is really the core issue. the whole circumstantial case against ellis is so doubtful that he deserves the benefit of the doubt. he was another victim of the cold war. when hysteria and fear overtook sense and reason. when paranoid intelligence agencies on both sides of the atlantic were utterly convinced that there were other fields to be uncovered in court. you go on to say that even if there was a confession. and of course, we don't know if there was, it has to be backed up with evidence. you've gone more deeply into this issue than pretty much any other author ever has. have you on covered any evidence? and if you have, what was it, was it anything more than circumstantial? well, that means the guy has made it in zillow said, absolutely crazy,

really. and essentially that he sold, you know, denazi's the, the organizational structure of, of november 6th. and, you know, he basically provided the nazi's only sort of the intelligence that i needed before the invasion of britain. you know that the ellis has bains, are linked to the decks of, of, you know, an act of leslie, how'd all sorts of stuff and really, i mean what, what else is supposed to have confessed to is accepting money at some point when he was a field agent for, for him i succeeded in western europe and that he had accepted some money in exchange for some, in some intelligence. but the thing that it did tell us was involved in was, in fact, you know, he was involved in selling intelligence. but, you know, they jump as a, as a,

as an intelligence officer in the field. this is sometimes to assume your enemies false information and, or to convince your, your enemy that you can be both. and you know that you can become a double license or for an enemy pallet size. and i'm more feeling is that the big ellis was heavily involved in, in working against the soviet union. prior to the 2nd move was that, you know, the, the, the common enemy of the germans in the, in the british was, was the side of the union and side to tell us was involved in basically, you know, gaining context in the, the, the russian community that was against the soviet union, you know, the white russians all the ukrainians who had sort of been dispossessed after the russian revolution. and he wanted to say in, in to communism. so, he was,

was involved guessing some sort of horse trading of intelligence. and at some point, possibly accepted some money, which he then spends on himself or his family. and my feeling is that in the context of these entire life and the contribution of the mind to west and intelligence to the, to the more assertive in 1st, the 1st world war and the 2nd world war. and so he's contribution to the united states to the setting up of the, you know, what became the c i a and he is driving intelligence services that he should be given some for this in discretion. guessing, thank you for bringing us these insights into take ellis's life. we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with international best selling author jesse. think about british by master dick ellis. states in the. 2 2 2

forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. we're such orders at conflict with the 1st law show your mind, anticipation. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. the point obviously, is to create a trust rather than fit the various jobs. i mean with the artificial intelligence we have so many with the in the a robot must protect this phone. existence was alexis, the position, the deep sort of the west of the west on was death. there is the septic

not to be brought the books to be the only delegates of good. i'm just the the. 2 2 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with a claimed international best selling author jessie fink, who has recently published the absolutely outstanding book, the eagle in the mirror. the greatest spice story never told. jesse, welcome back. thanks again for being with us. thanks by jesse. as i said at the start of the program, dick ellis was given more honors awards and metals. then we even have time to list on this show. how is it that somebody so important, so integral to the allied victory in the 2nd world war, so critical to the creation of american spy agencies be so largely forgotten?

how is that possible? why is he not among the pantheon of great intelligence officers? well, i guess in or what a great diligence officer does is inside court in front of the job is not to reveal too much about what it is that you do. and a managed, or donnelly, you know, when these declarations and it was very easy right? to books including a very important book under regulations. and he was a scholar, a summer of shoes in that central asia. and he was a poly got a classical musician. he served as the deputy to william savings and it's pretty security code nation in, in the united states. and of course, status and, you know, like publicizing zone exports. but i think it was, was, you know, quite the opposite things. someone who really sort of and he had to, they,

the officials, thinkers act and didn't want to get in trouble for colors and they're walking too much of bad things that he was involved with. so investigating his last and trying to sort of put together a picture and exactly who he was. he was extremely difficult, but he was always in the background as you know, these major events. so he was kind of like, you know, like the british intelligence that he, he was connected to so many important people went to so many and, you know, massive organizations and made such a huge contribution to, to, you know, the victory of the allies. and the 2nd one that i was just astonished that no one had ever attempted to really kind of put his life together in books. and so what i quickly discovered was, you know, there was a reason for that because it was very hard to find anything about i want to get

back to these unfounded allegations that i was spied for the soviet cagey. be weird of these allegations originate, you make a point of saying in the book that there was never any proof that this happened, that ellis adamantly denied it, and that he was allowed to retire quickly, keep his pension and live happily ever after. where did this rumor come from and what do you think the motivation was in spreading it? well, i mean like i said before, you know, this is nancy offices, interrogation report past uh, was passed on to, you know, consuming and, and came to a lease. and he didn't have any audio detail, this was even the she had office spies in london at that time. so, you know, they guys, later, when this particular reports are, was produced when a m r 6 and the c, i was, you know, scrambling to find if there were any of a savvy of malls in the intelligence sentences of the time and us side.

this report is looked at on very suspicious. and it was, was bice, we thought that, you know, toby was protecting else and you know, what was, what was the reason based solely to protect it was you know, what i working in cuz it's, there was ellis, is the russian soup as far that hadn't been to texas and it seemed to be a very sort of simple explanation for more, you know, somebody had written on this particular report. i would also want to revisit this notion that i was, may have fallen on his or to protect the superior. he may have made perhaps, let's call it a partial confession only in order to protect someone above him. perhaps even the head of in my 6 at the time. who would that have been?

and what would have been the motivation in protecting this person? well, there was a guy called stuart me is, you know, just spelled means that i pronounce it minutes. so he was the head of him on 6 at the time, you know, elizabeth was working saying the him, me, us was actually in close contact with admiral snares. of the, of the, it was one of the main conspirators against it. so, you know, the actual, you know, the not in the office in the mention is kept and it was when he was being interrogated and saying the deputy of 10 years. so, you know, tell us being in contact with this not the also called foster and meanness being contract 10 years. i would suggest that there was some sort of level, a corporation collaboration between mazda and in bright britain. prior to the

outbreak of the 2nd level. and of course, after the 2nd breaking the signal and not to germany, great britain will go to adams. and so i think that it was hardly embarrassing for raymar 6 and, and, and think it was understood that if he had some sort of admission to collaborating with, again, this was acting under the orders of stuart maintenance to essentially work very closely with not and probably the 2nd will, will decide that the home can't, once a student needs, and he died a few years out. the ellis has position. and you know, maintenance was, it was a supporter of ellis. what happened to me this is this, it says, promoter thing that sort of entire staples is continue working at ellis, he never stop support again. as long as he is always ellison analysis,

loyalty was always a good mix. and that is, i think, the most wonderful explanation, what else was involved with that involving when it came, says this contract with them that she didn't want to. so they give up names as well, and getting to explain something that one of the thing easily explain to you to day guys after the end. it's a little after ellis died, his family attempted to clear his name. prime minister margaret satcher, however, refused at the time to either confirm or deny the accusations against elizabeth pincher had made that caused ellis's daughter and sally to return the metals that her father had been given to the british government. was elis ever formally exonerated? and if not, why not?

now he wasn't living formerly, don't write it even those doors and had written to them from mister norton to live with satcher. ah, so that's my site. i satcher refuse essentially now by saying, you know that if she were to make this exceptions ellis, that she would have to call me on other cases. and she was with the size the, the ellis family never got the resolution and exoneration. i was thinking that the things to find and i know that and whose daughter was sorry, discussed with the british government, she actually return metals. and she left, you guy went to live in the non size bill, us as a teacher, he was a canadian intelligence officer and he also wouldn't accept the 2nd side of the

school thing that you know, has been using he's drawn to clear his night and only this link i was contacted by someone who actually knew peter ellison and said that, you know, figure out, sustain, disgusted by the fact that installed it. it's the tri, essentially the americans and the british and the heats is 9, but they sell it in the white of this page. so um, so it says it's pretty sad tile really and i think it's sort of symptomatic. it's kind of how, how the media works, the sizes that, you know, people like allegations then people will pay the allegations, it gets for phone somewhere else. and no one ever actually follows to actually trying to figure out whether it's true. so you know, that's what our product. so that's what i'm trying to do is present the,

at the fed, eric on his account of, you know, what else was that was involved in who he was. and so the last ratings that mike up there on, on to that it is go to is. thank you, jesse, you were fantastic. and so was the story of dick ellis. everybody loves the goods by story. i know i do. i always have. but what makes spies stories so great is that they're either true for their based on truth. this story is different. dick ellis was a patriot. that's what the evidence shows. he was not a spy. he was not a traitor. and rather than having highly paid writers make their money by denigrating the memory of the man who should be celebrated. i'd like to thank our guest. jessie, thanks for being with us today. and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the width of lowers. i'm john curiosity. please follow me on some stack at john kerry. i will see you next time

the. 2 2 2 2 the hi, i'm actually i have to have and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please do the have the state department, the c i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way and say

the, the on this monday. that's it. let me see if it's that then. yes ma'am. so facade, indeed to him. he would do it assuming that the good for them to look into intermedia keitel is the most of the i'm seen send the most of the to the the

motion of the young 41 percent of us adults have enough savings to cover a 1000 dollar emergency if we have record numbers of americans who are on the verge of having their cars repossess more than a 137000000 americans are facing financial hardship because of medical then in america, we do have a welfare system in place to help people who are struggling financially, but it's a conditional system you have to prove to the government that you truly need help. the simplest way to like explain the basic income is that it's like social security for the rest of us. a basic income would be a monthly payments that would go to everyone. just a $1000.00 a month. no strings attached. use i have, i would like them maybe. i don't know. i just won't go crazy. the reason that i am a fan of guaranteed income because it is this idea that everybody is deserve. and then

just by virtue of your being here, the 24 people are killed. and the idea strikes on a refugee camp in thought that with babies and of pregnant women among the reported victim, i call them says don't, does sound villamore the israel's use of highly controversial. so called struck when i have seen countless children with their bodies riddled instructional injuries. they have shrapnel all over their body in their head and neck, and that's or x and the abdomen. the bandwidth asked employees the all me and oppose as a nationwide to talk to you in a bit to quote student protests of brittany. the 100 people are.