dick ellis was born in australia, in 1895, and was a self taught and self trained classical cellist. he went to england on a scholarship in 1914, and almost immediately enlisted as a private in the british army. he fought in france during world war one and was decorated for his bravery. he returned to england was promoted to the rank of captain and transferred to south and then central asia. he was eventually promoted to the rank of colonel. he joined the foreign ministry and enrolled in oxford university where he studied russian and german in 1921. ellis joined the m i 6 and was sent on his 1st assignment to constance and opal. the 1st of many, many foreign assignments, spending much of the 1930s in london ellis was put in charge of m. i 6 wire taps on the german embassy there. translating conversations between 8 of hitler and you'll walk in one ribbon truck for the british government. as it was in 1940 that was

important, grew dramatically, he was transferred to new york to be the 2nd ranking british intelligence officer. there. he helped the f. b. i who and it's counter intelligence techniques and provided american general william wild build donovan with the blueprint for what became the office of strategic services. the predecessor organization to the c i a l. us later learned that the japanese were planning to bump pearl harbor. any warrant president franklin roosevelt of the impending attack through his son, jimmy roosevelt, president harry truman, later, awarded ellis with the american legion of merit for his service to the united states during world war 2. ellis even went on to co found the australian secret intelligence service on behalf of in my 6. and he finally returned to england in 1954. ellis was given more metals than we can name here. and he was seen as one of the greatest intelligence professionals in the history of the united kingdom. he

retired in the mid 19 fifties, but the story doesn't end there. when kim selby affected to the soviet union in 1963, after slipping out of a dinner party and a route, a joint m i 5 m i 6 investigation headed by the legendary intelligence officer, peter wright investigated ellis and a number of other retired officials in an interview with rights so called fluency committee. ellis allegedly made a confession that he had provided intelligence to the nazis before the war. he denied ever having otherwise engaged in espionage counter to british interest. but authors, including right, have subsequently accused elis posthumously, of course, of having been a triple agent. they allege that not only was he secretly working for the nazis, but that he was also working for the soviet union at the same time,

something that his daughter has staunchly and steadfastly denied. well, there is a new book that has just been published. that gets to the bottom of these allegations, the ingle and the mirror, the greatest spice story never told, was written by award winning international best selling author jesse think he joins us today. jesse, thank you so much for being with us. thanks john. good to be seen. where do we even begin with this complicated story? i guess the, the best place to begin is of course, at the beginning. so give us an overview of dick ellis's career. what made him attractive to m? i? 6, he had no formal training or education. why did my 6 think he would make a good spy? uh well think it was uh, was born in australia or a nice, a 95. he had a pretty tough charles old raising his mother dog when he was about 2 or 3 years old. and he was shuffled around funds up and down the so these kinds of estrada

because his father essentially couldn't take care of him. and um, he sort of time out of the wing of the sort of economy schoolmaster who started educating and dick and dick sort of uh, went to not classes at the university in, in melbourne to and managed to get a scholarship to, to the guy. and then he went out to the guy and not a 14 sort of planning to become a student. and of course, the 1st of all broke out and he was, you know, quite a dig around his shoulder he made was injured sort of multiple times on the western front. while he was convalescing in sort of military hospitals, he started studying russian and became quite fluent in russian. and obviously this was as much interest to the uh,

british intelligence service and, and they want to people who had a great facility for languages and, and gave us eventually ended up speaking about non language. and so he was, it was very useful to british intelligence between the was because obviously he could be sort of st. often french speaking countries, generally speaking, countries, um, and he had a great facility for russian. so do you know, the main target of british intelligence between the was, was the savvy engine. so he was very useful. ellis was a star in the united states during world war 2. he trains j edgar hoover's f. b. i . in counter intelligence techniques. he showed wild build donovan, how to create an intelligent service from the ground up. he was close to 2 presidents. any forged a friendship with one of the most difficult men in washington. james hayes was angleton, who later became the c. i is 1st deputy director for counter intelligence. there

was no indication during those years that he was anything other than a patriotic british intelligence professional. and then we see reports of a so called confession. several authors have written about it, but was, was it in the actual confession? could it has been a transcribed misunderstanding or could ellis maybe have been trying to protect somebody? yeah, well this is essentially, is what i'm trying to do. you know, the co mystery of detail is, is, is wanting definitely, he's supposedly confessed to in 90 and 65. so this time, a couple of years after can still be directed to the survey union. and of course, intelligence agencies of great britain in the united states were united, brownly, embarrassed by the defection of silsbee. and i'm convinced that they were either savvy in malls, in the mix. and so they went through um,

you know, old files. they went through interrogation reports of nazis, the main arrested after the sake of a war engine would be interrogated. and in one of these particular reports, there was a, a nazi officer who mentioned to captain ellis no 1st 9, just captain ellis, who had been a source for the, the ever have a, the nazi military intelligence service. and this report had sort of ended up on the desk of none of that. none other than can surely back in not and 46 and someone at austin who is this else and can feel the head responded the he had no idea and that no further action needed to be taken. so is in the context is not in the sixty's in our to use after fuel. we have defected paper. we're looking at this file thinking, why did control beside that. he didn't know details when the 2 of the work together

. and why had the file essentially been buried? so the l a sort of the time on the sort of intense suspicion and was cold into an interrogation in london. and he was grilled by the pay to run the well they my $5.00 is of course went on to write the book spark accurate in the 9090s in which he sort of light out is supposedly damning case against the kill us. and, you know, i went and investigated essentially kind of, you know, what they, what the grounds with for ela staying and nazi. and so i be a spy. and kind of the conclusion that there really wasn't much to suggest that he was as 5 or either of those enemies during the war or even before the war. and that it was my head actually being protecting his boss, the day of my 6 essentially my feeling is that uh and,

and the evidence would show that uh, in my 6 was in fact sort of cooperating with some sort of elements of, of nazi germany before the outbreak of the 2nd world war and this was a deeply embarrassing thing for, for, for great britain. an accusation that boggles the mind that you just noted is the notion that ellis was working for the soviet cage. you be, you write this in the book and i quote, the issue of whether ellis is confession exists. i suspect it does in some form, perhaps more of an inconclusive interview than a full blown admission of guilt obscures what is really the core issue. the whole circumstantial case against ellis is so doubtful that he deserves the benefit of the doubt. he was another victim of the cold war. when hysteria and fear overtook sense and reason. when paranoid intelligence agencies on both sides of the atlantic were utterly convinced that there were other fields to be uncovered in court.

you go on to say that even if there was a confession. and of course, we don't know if there was, it has to be backed up with evidence. you've gone more deeply into this issue than pretty much any other author ever has. have you on covered any evidence? and if you have, what was it, was it anything more than circumstantial? well, that means the guy has made it is jealous. a absolutely crazy, really. and essentially that he solved, you know, denazi's the, the organizational structure of, of them on 6 that, you know, he basically provided the nazis all the sort of the intelligence that they did before the invasion of britain. you know, that the ellis has been sort of linked to the depths of, of, you know, an active listening how'd all sorts of stuff and

really, i mean what, what else is supposed to have confessed to is accepting money at some point when he was a field agent, for, for him i succeeded in wasting your and that he had accepted some money in exchange for some, in some intelligence. but the thing that i think i was, was involved in was, in fact, you know, he was involved in selling intelligence. but, you know, they jump as a, as a, as an intelligence officer in the field. this is sometimes to say on your enemies, false information and, or to convince your, your enemy that you can be both. and you know that you can become a double license or for an enemy pallet. so um, i'm more failing is that the gallows was heavily involved in, in working against the soviet union. prior to the 2nd move all the, you know,

the, the common enemy of the germans in the, in the british was, was the side of the union. and side to tell us was involved in basically, you know, gaining context in the, the, the russian community that was against the soviet union or the white russians all the ukrainians who had sort of been dispossessed after the russian revolution. and she wanted to say in, in to communism. so he was, was involved guessing some sort of horse trading of intelligence and at some point possibly accepted some money, which he then spends on himself or, or his family. and my feeling is that in the context of his entire life and the contribution of the mind to west and intelligence to the, to the more assertive in 1st, the 1st world war and the 2nd world war. i always contribution to the united states or the setting up of the, you know,

what became the c i a and he is driving intelligence services. that's um, he should be given some for this in discretion, guessing thank you for bringing us these insights and to take alice's life, we're going to take a short break. and when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with international best selling author jesse thing about british spine master dick ellis. state to the. 2 2 2 the release of the russian states never as, as tight as one of the most sense community was all sense and the same assistance must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will fan in the european union,

the kremlin machine, the state on the russians cruising and split the r t smooth neck, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say a request for check the position, the d swords of the west on the west almost death is deceptive. not to because the books to be the only did it gave most good. i'm just the

the. 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with a claimed international best selling author jesse fink, who has recently published the absolutely outstanding book, the eagle in the mirror. the greatest spice story never told. jesse, welcome back. thanks again for being with us. thanks by jesse. as i said at the start of the program, dick ellis was given more honors awards and metals. then we even have time to list on this show. how is it that somebody so important, so integral to the allied victory in the 2nd world war, so critical to the creation of american spy agencies to be so largely for god. how is that possible? why is he not among the pansy on of great intelligence officers?

well, i guess you know what a great intelligence officer does is inside core. and part of the job is not to reveal too much about what it is that you do. and a managed, or donnelly, you know, when these declarations and awards buddy, he ride to books including a very important book on the range of nations. and he was a scholar of summer producing that central asia. and he was a poly got a classical musician. he served as the deputy to william savings, and it's pretty security, coordination in the united states and of course, status and, you know, i'd like to publicizing these on exports. but i think i was, was, you know, quite the opposite things. someone who really sort of adhered to the the official secrets act and didn't want to get in trouble for kind of some rocking too

much of bad things that he was involved with. so investigating his last and trying to sort of put together a picture and exactly who he was. he was extremely difficult. but he was always in the background as you know, these major events that he was kind of like, you know, like the british intelligence that he, he was connected to so many important people went to so many and you know, massive organizations and made such a huge contribution to to you know, the victory of the allies in the 2nd world war that i was just astonished that no one had ever attempted to really kind of for his life together in books. and, but what i quickly discovered was, you know, there was a reason for that because it was very hard to find anything about. i want to get back to these unfounded allegations that was spied for the soviet k g b. where to these allegations originate, you make

a point of saying in the book that there was never any proof that this happened, that elis adamantly denied it, and that he was allowed to retire quickly, keep his pension and live happily ever after. where did this rumor come from and what do you think the motivation was in spreading it? well, i mean like i said before, you know, this is nancy offices, interrogation report passed. uh, was passed on to, you know, can still be and, and can fill these and he didn't have any audio detail. this was even the she had office spies in london at that time. so, you know, they guys later when this particular reports are, was produced, when am i 6? and they say i was, you know, scrambling to find if there were any of a savvy of malls in the intelligence services. this is the time of us. this report is looked at on very suspicious and it was, was basically thought that,

you know, toby was protecting else and you know, what was, what was the raising base for solely to protect. there was no way that working in cuz it's, there was ellis, is the russian soup as far that hadn't been to take this it seemed to be a very sort of simpler in explanation for more, you know, certainly had written on this particular report. i would also want to revisit this notion that ellis may have fallen on his sort to protect the superior. he may have made perhaps, let's call it a partial confession only in order to protect someone above him. perhaps even the head of in my 6th at the time, who would that have been, and what would have been the motivation in protecting this person? well, there was a guy called the steward, me as you know, just spelled menzies,

that i pronounce it minutes. so he was the head of him on 6 at the time, elizabeth was working saying the him, me, us was actually in close contact with the admiral snares of the, of the, it was one of the main conspirators against it. so you know, the actual, you know, the not to the office in the mentions as captain nellis when he was being interrogated insane. the deputy was 10 years. so you know, ellis, being in contact with this nazi, also called foster and mega spring contract 10 years. i would suggest that there was some sort of level of cooperation with collaboration between nazi and in bright britain prior to the outbreak of the 2nd level. and of course after the 2nd braking signal and not to germany,

great britain were mortal enemies. so i think that it was hardly embarrassing um for raymar 6 and and, and they gave us understood that a is a headset in the service. the vision to collaborating with janice was acting under the orders of student maintenance to essentially work very closely with nancy. janet and fraud and say what, what if i've been home can once which to these? and he died a few years after ellis's position. and, you know, make us was, it was a supporter of ellis right up until the 5th. it says, promoter in the set of entire staples is continue working at ellis, he never stopped support again. as long as he was elected ellison analysis, loyalty was always with links. and that is,

i think the most logical explanation for what else was involved with that involving when it came. so he's context with lots of them that she didn't want to. so it's the give up names for it and getting to explain something that wouldn't have been easily explained to day guys. after the in the signal, after ellis died, his family attempted to clear his name. prime minister margaret satcher, however, refused at the time to either confirm or deny the accusations against elizabeth pincher had made that caused ellis's daughter and sally to return the metals that her father had been given to the british government. was elis ever formally exonerated? and if not, why not? now, it wasn't in full range on ladies, even those doors and had written to the, from this or, you know,

i came to live with satcher. as soon as my site is that you refuse. it's essentially now by saying that if she were to make this exceptions ellis, that she would have to come in on all the cases. and she was so the, the ellis family never got the resolution and exoneration. i was thinking that this is to 5 and i know that and whose daughter was sort of discussed with the british government. she actually returned metals. and she left you guy went to live in the non sites. villas has some feature. he was a canadian intelligence officer, and he also wouldn't accept that his father was gazing at her. you know,

spin news news trying to clear his night in only this link i was contacted by someone who actually knew tater ellison and said that, you know, figure out, sustain date was disgusted by the fact that inside of the tri, essentially the americans and the british and if he's is 9, the thing solid in the why that is great. so um, so it says it's pretty sad tile really. and i think it certainly seems medical kind of how, how the media works, the sizes that, you know, people like allegations then people will pay the allegations, it gets for phone somewhere else. and no one ever actually follows to actually trying to figure out whether it's true. so you know, that's what our product. so that's what i'm trying to do is present the fair on his account of you know, what else,

what was involved into. he was and sort of lost ratings to mike, up there on, on to that, you know, he's go to is. thank you, jesse, you were fantastic. and so is the story of dick ellis or everybody loves it. goods by story. i know i do, i always have. but what makes by stories so great is that they're either true for their based on truth. this story is different. dick ellis was a patriot. that's what the evidence shows. he was not a spy. he was not a traitor. and rather than having highly paid writers make their money by denigrating the memory of the man who should be celebrated. i'd like to thank our guest. jesse, thanks for being with us today, and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the list of loaners. i'm john kerry. aku, please follow me on some stack at john q reactive. we'll see you next time the

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