and of the nation and the alliance with russia, which acted as a united front with turkish patriots. at the end of august 1922, the third's army won a decisive victory over the invaders in the battle of doom. libby not, and within a month liberated all asia minor from them, the impressive success of the circus army force the west to make concessions. in 1923, the loss on these treaty was signed. turkey. one of the 1st countries in asia manage to defeat the colonial empires and defend its independence, becoming an example for in the millions of, via press on the planet the 34 years ago. i happened to be at a dinner party in riyadh saudi arabia. when i was introduced to a man with an unusual name of stella, filthy,

i commented that he had the same surname as one of the most famous spies in history . kim fell. the umbrella responded unexpectedly that kim was his hacked brother. he told me that their father had been the personal physician, the king of disease in so the founder of saudi arabia, and that for a lifetime of medication, the king had given their father's saudi citizenship. the elders still be converted to islam. marietta saw the woman had a 2nd family and lived out his remaining days and comfort and re quote. but we don't talk about him. he said, that's an ongoing theme, john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 we're not going to talk about tim philby today. the story is well known, he spied for years on behalf of the soviet union,

even after rising to be the director of britain's m. i 6 by agency. but lots and lots of people know that story. today we're going to tell you a spice story that you likely have never heard before. it's the story of charles howard. dick ellis. he was my 6 is top intelligence officer in the united states during world war 2. dick ellis was born in australia, in 1895, and was a self taught and self trained classical cellist. he went to england on a scholarship in 1914, and almost immediately enlisted as a private in the british army. he fought in france during world war one and was decorated for his bravery. he returned to england was promoted to the rank of captain and transferred to south and then central asia. he was eventually promoted to the rank of colonel. he joined the foreign ministry and enrolled in oxford university where he studied russian and german in 1921 ellis joined

a m i 6 and was sent on his 1st assignment to constance and opal. the 1st of many, many, 4 and assignments. spending much of the 19 thirty's in london ellis was put in charge of m. i 6 wire taps on the german embassy there. translating conversations between 8 of hitler and you'll walk in one ribbon truck for the british government. as it was in 1940 that was important, grew dramatically, he was transferred to new york to be the 2nd ranking british intelligence officer. there. he helped the f. b. i who and it's counter intelligence techniques and provided american general william wild bill donovan with the blueprint for what became the office of strategic services. the predecessor organization to the c i a l. us later learned that the japanese were planning to bump pearl harbor any warranted president franklin roosevelt of the impending attack. through his son, jimmy roosevelt, president harry truman,

later awarded ellis with the american legion of merit for his service to the united states during world war 2. ellis even went on to co found the australian secret intelligence service on behalf of in my 6. and he finally returned to england in 1954. ellis was given more metals than we can name here. and he was seen as one of the greatest intelligence professionals in the history of the united kingdom. he retired in the mid 19 fifties, but the story doesn't end there. when kim selby affected to the soviet union in 1963, after slipping out of a dinner party and a route, a joint m i 5 m i 6 investigation headed by the legendary intelligence officer, peter wright investigated ellis and a number of other retired officials in an interview with rights so called fluency committee. ellis allegedly made a confession that he had provided intelligence to the nazis before the war. he

denied ever having otherwise engaged and espionage counter to british interest. but authors, including right, have subsequently accused elis posthumously, of course, of having been a triple agent village that not only was he secretly working for the nazis, but that he was also working for the soviet union at the same time, something that his daughter has staunchly and steadfastly denied. well, there is a new book that has just been published, that gets to the bottom of these allegations. the eagle in the mirror, the greatest spice story never told, was written by award winning international best selling author jesse think he joins us today. jesse, thank you so much for being with us. thanks. don't go to the scene. where do we even begin with this complicated story? i guess the, the best place to begin is of course,

at the beginning. so give us an overview of dick ellis's career. what made him attractive to in my 6? he had no formal training or education. why did my 6 think he would make a good spy? well together, so i was born in australia and 1995. he had a pretty tough charles old. he's and his mother died when he was about 2 or 3 years old and he was shuffled around funds up and down the so these kinds of estrada because his father essentially couldn't take care of him. and um, he sort of came out of the window, the sort of a commonly school master who started educating dick and dick sort of uh, went to not classes at the university in um, in melbourne to and managed to get a scholarship to, to the guy. and then he went out to the guy and not

a 14 sort of planning to become a student. and of course, the 1st of the war broke out and he was, you know, quite a dig around, a soldier he made was injured sort of multiple times on the western front. while he was convalescing in sort of military hospitals, he started studying russian and became quite fluent in russian. and obviously this was as much interest to the uh, british intelligence service and, and they want to people who had a great facility for languages and, and they gave us eventually ended up speaking about non language. and so he was, it was very useful to british intelligence between the was because obviously he could be sort of sent off to french speaking countries, generally speaking, countries, um, and he had a great, a facility for russian. so it would be, you know, the main target of british intelligence between that was,

was the soviet union. so he was very useful. ellis was a star in the united states during world war 2. he trains j edgar hoover's f. b. i in counter intelligence techniques. he showed wild build donovan, how to create an intelligent service from the ground up. he was close to 2 presidents. any forged a friendship with one of the most difficult men in washington. james hayes was angleton, who later became the c. i is 1st deputy director for counter intelligence. there was no indication during those years that he was anything other than a patriotic british intelligence professional. and then we see reports of a so called confession. several authors have written about it, but was, was it in the actual confession? could it has been transcribed misunderstanding or could ellis maybe have been trying to protect somebody? yeah, well this is essentially, instead of trying to, you know, the cold mystery of detail as is, is wanting definitely he supposedly confessed to,

in 1965. so this time a couple of years have to consider will be directed to the survey union. and of course, intelligence agencies of great britain in the united states were non brownly, embarrassed by the defection of silsbee. and i'm convinced that they were other savvy in malls, in the mix. and so that way through, um, you know, old files. they went through interrogation reports of nazis, a vein arrested after the sake of a war, and who would be interrogated. and in one of these particular reports, there was a, a nazi officer who mentioned to captain ellis no 1st 9, just captain ellis, who had been a source for the, the ever have a, the nazi military intelligence service. and this report had sort of ended up

on the desk of none of it, none other than can fill it back in. not at 46 and someone at austin, who is this else and can fill the head, responded that he had no idea and that no further action needed to be taken. so in the context of the not in the sixty's in our to use of to do, we have defected paper. we're looking at this file thinking, why did control we say that he didn't know to tell us when the 2 of the work together and why had the file essentially been buried so that it was sort of came on to sort of intakes suspicion and was cold into an interrogation in london, and he was grilled by the pay to run the well they my 5 who of course went on to write the book spark accurate in the 9090s in which he sort of light out is supposedly damning case against the kill us. and, you know,

i went and investigated essentially kind of, you know, what they, what the grounds with for l. a staying and nazi and so i be a spy. and kind of the conclusion that there really wasn't much to suggest that he was a spot for either of those enemies during the war or even before the war. and that, that was my head actually being protecting his boss, the day of my 6 essentially my feeling is that, uh and, and the evidence would show that uh, in my 6 was in fact sort of cooperating with some sort of elements of nazi germany before the outbreak of the 2nd world war and this was a deeply embarrassing thing for, for, for great britain. an accusation that boggles the mind that you just noted is the notion that ellis was working for the soviet k g b. you write this in the book and i quote, the issue of whether ellis is confession exists. i suspect it does in some form,

perhaps more of an inconclusive interview than a full blown admission of guilt obscures what is really the court issue. the whole circumstantial case against ellis is so doubtful that he deserves the benefit of the doubt. he was another victim of the cold war. when hysteria and fear overtook sense and reason. when paranoid intelligence agencies on both sides of the atlantic were utterly convinced that there were other fields to be uncovered in court. you go on to say that even if there was a confession. and of course, we don't know if there was, it has to be backed up with evidence. you've gone more deeply into this issue than pretty much any other author ever has. have you on covered any evidence? and if you have, what was it, was it anything more than circumstantial? well, that means the allegations made against zillow said, an absolutely crazy, really, and essentially that he solved, you know, denazi's um the,

the, the organizational structure of, of november 6th. and, you know, he basically provided the nazis only sort of the intelligence that i needed before the invasion of britain, you know, they take ellis has been sort of linked to the distance of, you know, an act of leslie, how'd, all sorts of stuff and really i mean what, what else is supposed to have confessed to is accepting money at some point when he was a field agent for or am i succeeded in western europe and that he had accepted some money in exchange for some in some intelligence. but the thing that i think i was, was involved in was, in fact, you know, he was involved in selling intelligence. but, you know, they jump as a, as a, as an intelligence officer in the field. this is sometimes to say on your enemies,

false information. and or to convince your, your enemy that you can be both and you know that you can become a double license or for an enemy pallet size. and i'm more failing. is that the big ellis it was heavily involved in, in working against the soviet union prior to the 2nd move all the, you know, the, the common enemy of the germans in the, in the british was, was the side of the union and size. the colors was involved in basically, you know, gaining context in the, the, the russian community that was against the soviet union. you know, the white russians all the ukrainians who had sort of been dispossessed after the russian revolution. and she wanted to say in, in to communism. so he was, was involved guessing some sort of horse trading of intelligence and at some point

possibly accepted some money, which he then spends on himself or his family. and my feeling is that in the context of his entire life and the contribution that he made to west and intelligence to the, to the more assertive in 1st, the 1st world war and the 2nd world war. and always contribution to the united states or the setting up of the, you know, what became the c i a and he is driving intelligence services. that's um, he should be given some for this in discretion, guessing thank you for bringing us these insights into take ellis's life. we're going to take a short break and when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with international best selling author jesse. think about british by master dick ellis state to the. 2 2 2 the

russian states never as tight as i'm one of the most sense community most i'll send some of the same assistance as being the one else calls question about this, even though we will fan in the european union, the kremlin move. yep. mission, the state on russia cruising and supports the r t spoke back, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say steven twist, which is the

the the. 2 2 welcome back to the

whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with a claimed international best selling author jessie fink, who has recently published the absolutely outstanding book, the eagle in the mirror. the greatest spice story never told. jessie, welcome back. thanks again for being with us. thanks very jessie. as i said at the start of the program, dick ellis was given more honors awards and metals. then we even have time to list on the show. how is it that somebody so important, so integral to the allied victory in the 2nd world war, so critical to the creation of american spy agencies to be so largely forgotten? how is that possible? why is he not among the pansy on of great intelligence officers? well, i guess sooner what a great diligence almost does is inside court in spite of the job is not to reveal too much about what it is that you do. and a managed, or donnelly, you know,

when these declarations and awards buddy a ride to books including a very important book on the latest fashions. he was a scholar and summer of houston that central asia and he was a poly got a classical musician. he served as the deputy to william savings, and it's pretty security coordination in, in the united states. and of course, status and, you know, i'd like to publicizing zone exports. but i think it was, was, you know, quite the opposite things. someone who really sort of adhered to the the official secrets act and didn't want to get in trouble for kind of some rocking too much of bad things that he was involved with. so investigating his loss and trying to sort of put together a picture and exactly who he was was extremely difficult. but he was always in the

background as you know, these major events that he was kind of like, you know, this elegant british intelligence. and that he, he was connected to so many important people went to so many and you know, massive organizations and made such a huge contribution to, to, you know, the victory of the allies in the 2nd world war. that i was just astonished that no one had ever attempted to really kind of for his life together in books and but from what i quickly discovered was that, you know, there was a reason for that because it was very hard to find anything about i want to get back to these unfounded allegations that was spied for the soviet cage, u. b. where to these allegations originate, you make a point of saying in the book that there was never any proof that this happened. that ellis adamantly denied it, and that he was allowed to retire quickly,

keep his pension and live happily ever after. where did this rumor come from and what do you think the motivation was in spreading it? well, i mean like i said before, you know, this is nancy offices interrogation or for past uh, was passed on to, you know, i can still be an in came to a lease, and he didn't have any audio detail as was even the she had office spies in london at that time. so you know, they guys later when this particular report service was produced, when in my 6 and the say i was, you know, scrambling to find if there were any of a savvy of malls in the intelligence sentences of the time. and us side, this report was looked at on a very suspicious and it was, was bice, we thought that, you know, toby was protecting else. and, you know, what was,

what was the reason base for us. so we to protect it was, you know, we're that working in cuz it's, you know, it was ellis is a russian soup his father had and take this as, um, it seemed to be a very sort of simpler in explanation for more, you know, so they had written on this particular report, i would also want to revisit this notion that ellis may have fallen on his sort to protect a superior. he may have made perhaps, let's call it a partial confession only in order to protect someone above him. perhaps even the head of in my 6th, at the time, who would that have been, and what would have been the motivation in protecting this person? well, there was a guy called the steward, me as you know, which is spelled means is that i pronounce it minutes. so he was the head of him on 6 at the time. elizabeth was working, thank the him, me, us was actually in close contact with admiral mirrors of the, of the,

it was one of the main conspirators against it. so, you know, the actual, you know, the not to the office in the mentions is kept and it was when he was being interrogated insane the deputy of 10 years. so, you know, ellis, being in contact with this nazi, also called foster and making a spring contract in years, i would suggest that there was some sort of level of cooperation with collaboration between mazda and in bright britain. prior to the outbreak of the 2nd level. and of course, after the 2nd breaking the signal and not to germany, right, britain were modal enemies. so i think that is hardly embarrassing for raymar 6 and, and,

and they gave us, i'm a student that it is a headset in the service meeting to. however, i'm with, again, this was acting under the orders of steward maintenance to essentially work very closely with not and probably the 2nd will, will decide that the home can't once which to needs. and he died the fees out the ellis's position. and you know, maintenance was it was a supporter of ellis. what happened to me is this, it says promoter in the sort of entire stable if continue working at ellis, he never stopped support again. as long as it was, it ellison analysis loyalty was always with links. and that is, i think the most wonderful explanation of what else was involved with that involving when it came says this contract with washington that she didn't want to.

so they give up names for it and get him to explain something that one of the things you explained to day guys after the in the signal after ellis died, his family attempt to declare his name. prime minister margaret satcher, however, refused at the time to either confirm or deny the accusations against the eldest, that pincher had made that caused ellis's daughter and sally to return the metals that her father had been given to the british government, was elis ever formally exonerated, and if not, why not? now it wasn't in full range already leaving those doors and had written to the, from this or, you know, i came to my dispatcher, so that's my site. is that you refuse? are essentially now by saying, you know, that if she were to make this exceptions,

ellis, that she would have to come in on the cases. and she was with the size of the the ellis family never got the resolution and exoneration. they were seeking this things to find it and i know that and whose daughter was sort discussed with the british government. she actually return metals and she left u. k. went to live in the non sites. bill us as a teacher who was a canadian intelligence officer. he also wouldn't accept that that he started was going to get to, you know, spin news news trying to clear his night in only this link. i was contacted by someone who actually knew peter ellison and said that, you know, figure out, sustain dates. we discussed it by the fact that inside of it's the tri,

essentially by americans and the british and the heats is 9, but they sell it in the why that is great. so um, so it says it's pretty sad tile really. and i think it's sort of symptomatic, it's kind of how, how the media works, the sizes that, you know, people like allegations then people will pay the allegations and gets performed somewhere else. and no one ever actually follows to actually trying to figure out whether it's true. so you know, that's what i thought of. so that's what i'm trying to do is present the, say eric, on his account of you know, what else was that was involved into? he was and so the last ratings that mike up there on, on to that it is go to is. thank you, jesse, you were fantastic. and so was the story of dick ellis. everybody loves it. goods

by story. i know i do, i always have. but what makes by stories so great is that they're either true for their based on truth. this story is different. dick ellis was a patriot. that's what the evidence shows. he was not a spy. he was not a traitor. and rather than having highly paid writers make their money by denigrating the memory of the man who should be celebrated. i'd like to thank our guest. jesse, thanks for being with us today, and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the width of loaners. i'm john kerry. aku, please follow me on some stack at john q reactive. we'll see you next time the. 2 2 the

the old wanted to come here since i was 121. my grandfather told me that his mom came from russia that we were, i was part russian. i didn't plan on staying this long. i was gonna look around. i was gonna see if it was for me, but then i came and then i was like, i don't remember when i go home. i've never been happier in life than i am here in russell. the i've only lived here a few months, but i wanted to tell you what fascinates me about russia and share the stories of other foreigners who lived here. like jay, who worked as a chef and now raises gods and makes cheese in the countryside, can like chat, who's been granted political asylum because he's being persecuted by the f. b. i. us, embassies. and for countries that come after me it's, it's wild like an american family that recently moved to russia with 6 children. i've never felt safer at land tire life than living here.

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