cannot see the time action or time say welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world with you a today mark 62 years. and so you k u s. u, i'm jailing of nelson mandela in prison between 62 and 1990 after c. i a covert operation in south africa mandela and 1997 said we know too well that all freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the palestinians. today is billions of dollars worth of weapons from the european union, the u. k. and principal sponsor of israel, the usa i dropped on gaza to exterminate palestinian superpowers, russia in china, of focusing their intentions on a possible wider us israel. maybe nuclear war targets include 11 and syria,

him and then to run, regardless of who wins november's us electrons joining me now from washington, dc. so well by that, a member of the national policy council of the art of american institute. who am i? thank so much for coming on. i should say we're recording this interview before the events of the weekend. tomorrow's also 79 years of the usa, designated and usually a bowman hiroshima. what do you think? do you think there any missing antic elements in israel? the think that they get results to the nuclear weapons. it demona based will control the demona base a given how much they seem to be possibly losing. and a war and the anymore against lebanon. iran, yemen, syria, russia, china, who knows who else. so i think you put your finger exactly on this are 5 prospects of where this could end. because right now we are set up in a compensation after a series of extremely provocative actions by the israeli government for the

complete and total disregard for international law, complete a total disregard for any possibility or peace talks or temporary down. the situation in the region mean we've seen just a series of assassinations at this point and it's all leading us towards a major confrontation. that is unknown consequences. i mean, certainly, if this thing gets out of hand, it could lead not figuratively, but literally to the desk of millions of people in the region. and the question becomes, if at the end of all this is real, find themself backed into a corner. what is the possibility of them using nuclear weapons? i don't think that's a 3rd question. i mean there is a level of lack of rationality. and these really government so far, just to kind of appreciate where we are and why we're here. israel would rather burn the entire region to the ground that lock how stands basic human rights allow them to live in freedom and dignity. that is why we're here. this has been the case for decades as an apartheid government that is treated policy is like garbage and denied in their most fundamental freedoms and insisted that they live

a life without dignity or their life and be stolen and their water can be taking away. and when there was a natural reaction to that, this is not defending it, but just saying that this is a natural consequence of people being held without freedom for a very long time. and people kind of counter attack then as well, use that as justification to commit massacres and every bit of pressure that was built up towards ending as well as genocide and gaza. israel has responded to with further escalation. so we're not dealing with irrational government. that is assigned to engage in a way where it wants to co exist, an equal the region is relative insisting on regional dominance. and if that means less killing and death in order to maintain that dominance, this is the path of actually gone on for, of course, what you said about israel, there is, is not a view that's shared by any of the correspondents on these circles. mainstream media networks in the united states and nato nation capital is. but do you think there is some kind of growing recognition of what you just said that seem to be

doubts actually cost on the is reading the account of the much al jones attack is if has well low lebanese resistance would attack arabs in the occupied the golan heights, there seems to be doubts about this. these 5 deal that they stand there, the podium of the state department talking about after the, the u. s. u. k. u weapons we used to kill the main negotiator for us. that's the so high that the by the ministrations been trumpeted. yeah, the whole thing is, is kind of a charade. you have a and it's really government that so far has just shown absolute and total in lack of interest in kind of settling the situation, right. we've had a serious, you know, we talked about the attack that took place and the goal and the goal heights occupied going heights, siri and kids who were killed by that rocket, which remains mysterious. we're not sure who lost it. we're not sure if it was an

accident, we're not sure if it's some group that did not know how to unlock it, or if it's an error, it is really aren't doing this so that mis 5 or something. there's just no adequate information. and the one thing that we do know is that these really government lives constantly. we know that they have repeatedly lied about an endless set of issues to try to justify either ongoing occupation or to justify even further atrocity. we all remember with that when post in american, all to 0 during was 3 and a box that was killed initially. these really governments that, that it was, palestinians will killed her. and then finally they said okey fine, we did it, but it was an accident. and thorough investigation so that she was actually targeted by a sniper with me. she was deliberately sought by these really military. and you can go on with a 1000000 examples, including by the way, the events that took place on october 7th. they're a bit uncertain as if what happened on october 7th was not that bad enough. these really government engaged in inflammatory exaggerations as a means of testifying what was going to follow. and i think that this is very similar that we are in

a moment right now where there's this mysterious rocket secure 12 kids were playing soccer. and i think all is real thought this as a useful justification launched further across. and that's read this more beyond because it feels like such a sympathetic incident that within merits or response. but ultimately, we know that israel does not care about the syrian kids and the goal and highest because a government that has killed 16000 counseling children and gotta get up possibly care about the lives of children. that's not a serious motivation. that's not something that actually comes into the tomorrow. calculus one is real, was about there at us, and they see this just simply as an opportunity to expand their aggressive action. and the question that remains is, what is the us doing for all of this? and it seems to be essentially giving as really green light. does this, terry are pushing the entire region 2 o'clock instead of doing what is just basic minimal, not just moral decency but strategic commonsense, which is the thing that we need more stability in that region. that means reading

in the country that is currently engaged, identified, and that has the we have this, this potential for our regional exposure and beyond anything that we've ever imagined. because this genocide is not, has not been stopped and nobody's doing anything meaningful to actually put it to an end. why do you say seems to be a green light? because that's, it seems to be a speculation by some critics of you here on the circle, mainstream media when to most of the world, rather than blaming israel. and i mean, i'll give you that and you know he's playing a master behind most of really here every move he makes a puts him further and further away from prison where he would go for corruption and it isn't really israel doing this, is it, it is the united states doing this? yes or no in a way, i think the united states, obviously israel, anthony, i would not be able to do anything that he's doing without for us backing. and that

has been fundamentally, but the problem here, the issue is what, what is the motivation on the american side? is it just a default towards deferring to israel, allowing them call the soft waves? the sorry on you saw in congress of 52 of ations for that and you know, it was made clear that the entire congress except with a few hon. exceptions. once to exterminate all the palestinians or yeah, i don't, i mean again, the facts of what you're saying is correct, right. they are standing up and applauding a work criminal who is engaged in just out of the violence and god that they're, they're putting these words. yeah. and he, yes, clearly says more or less that the extermination developed in, in people is what's in school. i think the people that sir and the american congress are operating under an outdated mindset. it is a default that the arabs are the other, including the palestinians, and that israel are the ones who are like us. and there has been extensive influence from these around lobby for many, many years,

and in america. so part of this is about domestic politics is about the financial influence of groups like a pack for spending a $100000000.00 and the selection detroit this way, congressional seats, and in their favor. they successfully asked that demo bowman recently who is a critic of his ready policy by dumping something like $50000000.00 into his race. you know, and support of his opponents in augusta. so there is that aspect of it and there's also the aspect to the fact that a significant portion of the american population is evangelical christians. and for them, there is a masonic view this on, however, a religious duty to support israel right or wrong. and that motivates american politicians, is that makes that who are always more interested in their own political power and maintaining their positions in congress than they are in promoting actually the policy. and i think the best part of the capital is here, is that what we're trying to back effectively, the american political establishment is to stop looking for your own personal narrow interest and think about the fate of the world and what is right and what is

wrong and it's free tens move, sorry, that is what they say. yes, i'm would say they've come all there is doesn't even need the millions of dollars from a pack. because actually these people believe in the phase of the world, which is that the palestinians will be exterminated. what do you make of lincoln immediately saying? yeah, this was definitely lebanon that killed the arabs. of course, a in cnn. they were his riley. somehow it was blinking and lloyd austin immediately saying, well whatever happens in baby, it doesn't really matter and you know, the violating rain, you know, space whatever, at least they imply those things. yeah, this is a subtle difference that i think is, is where i'm heading on. there's a different between having disregard for the lives of how stands and lebanese, and others, and actively wanting them to be exterminated. so i think it would be a stretch to say that people in the american political establishment actively wants to see these termination are promised in here. but there is a level of disregard that they're watching israel do it, and they don't care. and that ought to be infuriating, and it puts, you know,

throws all of the slogan, hearing about the american administration about putting human rights 1st and then international law based order and all of this nonsense. it's just, it's all this rate. these are people who are interested in their own power in spreading the power of united states and right now they feel that between their own domestic political interests in their view, by the way mistakenly i should say that they ought to continue supporting what israel does that is an outdated view based on the way politics used to be. there's a significant shift in american public opinion right now. young people throughout the country oppose what israel is doing. they want to cut off military funding for israel. they want to an end to this genocide and a ceasefire, and god and the political establishment is not responsive to the shift. i think it whenever you have shifts happen in a country. the last part that actually changes is the political establishment. so we're beginning to see the rules of some change and i think it's going to have to be that politicians was a part of a general dentist, not a policy. paying

a political call comes election day in order for them to realize that they have to correct force. and until that happens, at this point, they're just sticking their heads in. the sam young people get their information through social media. they don't rely on legacy appropriate media, and that's why they get information that is actually accurate. and it leads to the obvious conclusion. israel is that a part time state is engaging in genocide and there should not be another penny spent on a country that behaves that way. we should be, have complete and total cut off of weapons and money to israel and tell israel starts behaving like a normal country rather than a real estate. we have to stop saying that israel gets to be a country that is above the law and above any rules and does what it wants. and once that change happens, then we can actually see a problem clicked for a better future for both israelis and palestinians. and that would then hold us policy in line with a rhetoric that we're constantly proud of about talking about freedom and democracy and human rights and all that nonsense. that just has not really effectively looked uh, you know,

like it has that he's almost to the reality of american policy. the contradiction has to be resolved. a lot of other, i'll stop you that more from the member of the national policy council of the are of american institute. after this break the the, the, what happened on october. the 2nd was a deal breaker for it was the slaves revolting against the master. when slaves revolt against the legitimate masters, that is not going to be peaceful and it is going to be violent terrorist here and

that will take care, right. and there is, there is there, there in just surrounding the entire area of the body became ready for us. you know, they knew we're gonna scatter like ship terrible tragedy and terrible revenge. as i saw him, i know who they mean come off the the on us know, especially the place will be the cause of being prevented from top one. but it seems to be that we don't want these ladies to be what he wants to do. peoples of the land to leave in peace and prosperity. is it possible to have peace in this region ever again?

the, the welcome back to going undergrad. i was still here, would be out of american is to do national policy council member omar bother. while you were talking about the cognitive dissonance, i suppose, between the those who govern and the government in the united states, k of the polls show that the american people want to seize 5 regardless of the applause war netanyahu. but then, what will the elite class do in your country? will they crack down even harder than they already have done? nice. will the pep a spray at the demonstrations against netanyahu's visit when he gave a is speech to both houses of congress we saw across the campus protests and the heavy ended police violence. some people invoking can stage and we have no yeah it's, it's a really simple chapter in american history right now that i have no doubt that future generations will look back in the same way that we look back at many

previous sample chapters of american history in which the concepts of this country has stood up to say no to existing policy and they've been faced with repression. and this is a repeat of that. you know, we have this fantasy that we're past that period whenever you talk about historical atrocities. whenever you talk about slavery and the genocide of native americans and segregation of the internment of japanese americans and the vietnam war and the list goes on and on, there's always the sense that these are things that certainly we know better now. and if they were to happen again, we would not react to them the same way. and yet, here we are once again, in a particularly ugly and distasteful phase, in which we are watching. the palestinians get starved to death and murder in the 10s of thousands and gossip. all of it funded by american money and supported with american policy and diplomatic protection for israel and the people who are standing up to that young people on college campuses who are raising their voices and saying no to this are indeed the boys are. other boys have confidence in this

country, and yes, we are stuck in this really bizarre reality where the political leave. i mean, it, you, you may have even seen it when they were applying this in the, out a form, you know, terminal was attacking american college students about their protests and you had american lawmakers applauding a board work criminal who is attacking their own students. it's such a ugly and the states were reality that exists right now. and if you would want to shape these people and wake them up now to say, don't just see what is happening. i don't just see how history is going to look back at this moment. but unfortunately, it looks like the, the way we evolve is not as seamless as we would like to imagine. and it really, it's, unfortunately will be a lot more depth incarnate before this country comes to a census and realize that we are heading down the wrong path. and that a corrective is need it's, but it's always been about people rising up and demanding that change. people have never changed their policies from the top down. it is always see from the bottom up

when people have confidence, it'd be the compatible for governments. it continued on with policies that are completely monsters and indefensible that we've achieved. change to that. yes. and then yeah, who said that the demonstrations were somehow involved with the iranian government resident of how a trump campaign was a no russian except the time is all you'd be running out doing all of this, isn't it? yeah, i mean, what do you think? do you think uh, nothing you know was got the green light when he met with kamala harris and joe biden on that visit to congress. he also went to see trump and murray logo about the green light from him. and then there was just before the space of assassinations, there was the head of the c. i a meeting in room with the head of most that, i mean, is this a concerted an attempt at whitening the war even as the is it blinking? who knows? it runs the white house, it's moving actually a denies it to the circle manager media. yeah, there is a, i think what it's in yahoo is doing here is calling the american administrations

bluff. he understands that the bottom administration would rather calm things down . they're not interested in a regional conflict, but he also knows that the bottom ministration is never going to do anything meaningful to hold his row back. so basically they have meetings and they have by an administration says we would rather you not escalate and maybe don't want, why do you think that's the case when we buy the ministration is in the receipt or so much money from a pack? i mean they, i mean, surely show you before and before november. be quite good for the buy the ministration to c, k us warfare and catastrophe here and somehow make them come out of harrison some kind of war time leader is. would it be good for the v? what if you listen to the contrast and speeches of a sort of the way trump has been talking? trump has insisted that the reason why there is all this chaos is because he's not private because bindings is, is the one who's president and if it were him, you can achieve call. and i think that instigated, i mean you can see it in the shifting the way the by that was talking about what is happening and,

and gaza from the beginning until later on when it was clear that there was significant public discontent with it. at 1st he did what every american politician does is realize the right to defend itself with related doors, what they're doing. and then as the opposition sort of building. and we saw that this thing was not actually resonating with the american public, that public opinion, especially on the democratic side, is breaking with this policy by that sort of talking about how is real engaging and the discriminant in bombing and gaza. the some people said that was a gas and all that was stopped as 12000 pound bottom shipment. it's the thing i don't know j can be a got. it cannot be a gap because it's not a one off. there's been a repeated powder of bite and raising objections, which means that at least rhetorically, he's uncomfortable with the fact that the us to see it as fully endorsing everything that as well as doing communion 6 wiley's skill funds. the janice precisely, i guess as we're not disagreeing here, did he's uncomfortable with it but not willing to go as far as to actually who has just what he wrote to cancel it. i don't understand or lopez about his rhetoric and

so on, while the heads are being dismembered of children and guns are by his bones which, which tells you what the current, which is what i'm trying to allude to here. the dynamic is, is that nothing yahoo is able to disregard the objections from united states about his policies, because he knows that to buy the ministration, likes the backbone to stand up and if any help in any meaningful sense. so who cares to your point? well cares if they're telling him that he's the top things down and not bump a route to not look for us to waste with the wrong. if at the end of the day, the us is going to keep handing out the money and the weapons for his role to do whatever it was, that's why we're here. and the call is it's, it's an appeal to the american political establishment to understand the folly of their approach. this idea that you can see regional peace and stability through just giving israel whatever it wants to never questioning it and never challenging it. that has not work, that has been a recipe for amulets, regional conflict, and that, and frankly, one that puts even us interested in the region in harm's way. and if we are serious

about being interested in a more stable region in the region in which the us could have better relations with, with the region and saw you have to have towards the escalation. that means reading nothing yahoo and renamed about apartheid genocidal government. and putting a stop to their behavior by saying not another penny, as long as you behaved that way. and in the long term like an assault terminate that these fire and the lot are you cannot achieve regional piece without addressing the issue of palestinians being denied freedom. okay, well i don't, i don't think there's going to be any of that happening because neither the 2 bodies are going to do that. so how will the american, the leads and how will the american people respond when us assets are now targeted? because obviously under international law, lebanon and iran can now respond, what happens to all these u. s. bases dosage around west asia when they start getting attacked, and us service in men and women who stop getting killed on a scale much larger than that by on. so allow from human that is

a horrifying prospect that is effectively what we're looking at is the possibility of a major regional war that your rod is engaged in directly with the us as the gate has been directly ad. who knows what the consequences of that will be? it has nothing but death and destruction was completely on certain long term future before it really means that the political class has doubled down. just saying what, what will the reaction be? will they double down then on their zionism, is it well we've, we've seen this happen time and time again. we've seen it in the, the, the history of vietnam is very tight. i think initially in the face of something like that, there is an incentive to double down and rally around the flag and push even harder and stronger. it is only in the water when this ends up being costly enough for attracted way does the us realize that things maybe have been done the wrong way? it's a 20 years for us to realize that we've made a mistake and our gas down to pull out only from the top to bottom to come back and say power again. unfortunately, if, if histories that teaches us any less than it is that people don't react well to

military, congregations quickly wiser and calmer minds don't always rain in those moments people who are calling for retaliation, that response of violence and strength. those tend to be the people who write to the top and take a range of things. but as this becomes a protracted problem, that's where we might see the potential version of the policy. and it would be incredibly tragic not to learn that lesson sooner to say before things escalate to that point before things get completely out of hand. we also have the foresight to see where this is heading into, put a stop to it before it ends there. and to look for, for me to put the escalation movie is view as well. note that you mentioned vietnam, which of course, the united states last obviously off to huge amounts of college in the indo china, what sort of television is there in washington? and do they even know that there was a badging declaration uniting a mouse with a pillow and fata and the p f l b. and all the other fellows did in groups that all these people were in moscow that there, there were

a huge to configure active changes going on in the global south as regard support for the palestinian struggle. i'm sure they're aware of the fact of how this is changing on the global front of that particular gear. and there's a question of how meaningful that specific our agreement is when it comes to company infections. because ultimately the policy and authority that exists in the west bank exists because the us and israel allow it to exist. it, is it at any point that the us in israel cut off support for it? i think that authority with lots so it's to, you know, to say that there's going to be made meaningful. we're going to take to come up. there are limits to that because they have patriots who are on the opposite sides of, of this really. but at least we saw at least we saw the head of floss a more and the dad there is about 70, which is how long would never normally have ever expected. anyone who's followed what's been happening in this region? yeah, that's, i think some of that is, is about domestic domestic consumption more than anything else. they feel that they

have to make certain statements, but unfortunately, i think we're stuck between um, you know, a rock and a hard place of policy and leadership is not looking particularly optimistic anywhere at this point. and certainly with the policy and authority, there is a sense of evidence that what is the point of an authority who has only function right now is effectively to make the occupation easier for his route to run administrative tasks and the policy in areas to run schools and collect garbage, but not really being part of any meaningful effort towards liberating palestine from his really occupations. that's not on the table. all the fall for it is, you know, piece talks and whatever like that. it's all in the sense that somehow we can just talk our way out of the situation that rent when it clearly requires a more cohesive strategy. and that authority is beholden to the, you know, if, if, if they were to challenge is real meaningful. they got housing authority would instantly cease to exist because of israel cuts off and the support. and if they treat the current housing authority, the way they treated it when it was under yes or our thoughts. and remember that

the statement of our compounds in the killing of, you know, they actually embedded his compound on multiple occasions. that's when you put yourself in that situation under occupation. and your existence depends on the occupier, is allowing you to exist and live and have the privilege that you do. that is not a recipe for a meaningful leadership that can actually lead the palestinians out of the situation. there is of utility reflected by old polls in palestinian territories, occupied and unoccupied. so do you think it will be though, through badging or moscow that this is solved now that washington is so clearly part of the war, the why the war that all these other countries are now arranged against? yeah, again, it's very, very difficult to imagine what the future holds right now. it's, i don't know what that popular looks like. what does it mean when you have israel as a regional power in the middle east? that is backed by the world superpower in the united states, giving an unlimited military weapons to do whatever it wants and is really the

nuclear on state. i don't know how this ends. well, i don't know what a solution even looks like at this point, unless either the us reins is real and in some way. and since that's not on the table in the short term, then we are headed towards almost immune and complex. and we have to see what that sticks up on the other side of just until that and carnage that i just wish we had the foresight to work our way out. but it's, well, i guess we'll have to wait and see how other powers react. and what kind of constraints they may be able to introduce in order to pull us back from the break about or thank you a thank you. and that sort of the show of continued condolences to those very, very you k u. s. u armed genocide and gaza will be back on saturday with a senior u. s. officer john whistle the who held 2 of the highest interested leadership positions in the us air force in pentagon. the claims and names of the legend is rarely spy of the highest levels of u. s. government still then even touch, why will i social media if it's not sensitive in your country?

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