given, had been given volatile, all the information to conduct the attacks. ukraine is the same state that scrambles will support from the applicant continents and the global sol. so well, all of this time supporting tourism and pay no respect to advocate sovereignty for that as well as some of the stories that quotes our i of, of the last 7 days more details on the stories want to take a look. dotsie dot com and uh, enjoy the rest of your weekend the the the,

the welcome to enter part, training territory, total security or additions for peace, elastic settlement of fingerprint in conflict with required, different given takes from each of the parties. but 1st, that would probably have to parts we have the own sense of righteousness does the historical moment or the nature of this conflict allow for this. or to discuss that . i'm now joined by jessica roberts emeritus professor of history of the university college for professor roberts is always a great pleasure, personal, a pleasure to talk to you. but on top of that, i'm far to in the some academic exchanges. that's in weston and russian scores

continue as this crisis continues to escalate. where do you think we are in a, in this the battle of what stage the conflict has taken? i think um my, my, my car in for you is over and we're in a very dangerous not much of the danger royce, this is the same thing. you said last time we talked the way it's actually afford districts. god bless you have more time just yes because the closer you cry and comes to the fate of the most desperate potentially reckless the west is again about powerful um, extreme. his voice is uh, becoming so it is quite possible that that deal. and then we may see some extreme actions to post up ukraine's defense. and then obviously there will be a, a dining drove escalation arising out those actions. what do you to see as potentially extreme actions from the side of the west?

because it's clear that the ukraine is becoming more liberal in its open use of terrace tactics. but what about the west? well, i mean, talk to all the talking about is the introduction of western troops in some phone. that issue seems to be on the agenda again. there's also talk about no no fly songs. yeah. old kind of stuff is being be discussed at the beginning of the war and which a western lead is you have refused to contemplate of that that time. but that back on the agenda and you know, the but they seem to be, i'd be more i'm, we take about seriously and i'd be more multiple patch of sex. now i don't, i don't think the intention of those kind of actions troops on the boots on the ground or some kind of um, app our intervention. it wont, bates, us a lot precipitated waterboard roster. that won't be the the intention of goals that won't be the danger that they know it, because obviously russia, i don't think, well, what would allow that? does that those actions you, i'd wonder if, if,

if there were some truths on the ground, wherever there are you trying that will be attacked, but by russia and the same goes for for wisdom. ethel's involvement now uh, something like this was contemplated 2 years ago, but as you say, it says to have more precious power. i'm on home. i mean, does it have more purchase power am on people at large and why would that be the case? because i mean, it's pretty clear that whatever a west and thinker is a strategy, a sort of the russian army, 2 years ago, the prison positions were defeated. the to say the least way. it certainly doesn't have in the purchasing public opinion in the west, the old if the older public opinion died. so we have, you know, assistant just, you know, pop popular opinions, moving in the direction of a way from one the direction of peace in simple some kind of compromise based on what the nights. so particular western countries to do, do something recklessly introduced you. it's ok to get more involved, right, and it could still be in a know, most kind of like out this,

the puppy all position, black dress, certainly a restraining factor. so how strong these voice is in favor of direct tensional it's, it's difficult to say, i mean did that, does beside the a lot of them at the moment, i mean, they're out the rock concept, their accounts voices. and, but i, you know, i think, i think it was, we might assist a popup of this conflict from the point of view of the west proxy why russia has been a kind of, you know, assistant escalation, one escalation off to the other. so they've done it so often it's almost become the actual so i think i, i will be, be shocked by will be surprised if they types of escalate research. do you take this escalation as i calculated tactic? in other words, when people uh raise a bit and to do they actually understand, are they conscious of what they're doing and you know, they possible a reply for i, i think is it, it's partly a calculated tactic. but i think it's also an emotional advice. talk to because

they've taught themselves into a position where they basically sounds that are right, right, right. i really believe that if they lose, do you cry new, fresh wins and then you try is going to be the end of the west as low as we now, you know, eventually they'd be to the, it won't know, it won't know, it won't happen. and that's important that we know it can be done actually poly into that, that, that disco. so no, no, do you train, you train what would be a huge blow tonight? so as to west to west 1st page, it will be critical. be cried before highs of prices rise. not but no i, i think the west of all just we know at night so we are the western powers of i think what will remind unless the wall goes on and on. yes. and russia kind of tried saving, multi plan to frank rush, it comes to occupy the whole deep. right. and then the wall, continuation of yeah. in that kind of extreme situation. yeah. that, that then possibly we are looking at the a much more the baptist elliptic outcome. let's discuss something that you and a number of other western schoolers propose to myself. and that is

a compromise to this war. in fact, you suggested in one of your recent articles that budget reports and could stop this war by negotiating a peace deal that includes ukraine's membership of mater. why do you believe that this proposal, which is the underlying premise for, for this call? so it has any complying power not only in moscow, but 1st and foremost in keys and in washington, if there's going to be a negotiated end to the peace settlement, then you've got this going to be some kind of western security, a guarantee of what's left of the ukraine started off to the war, right? that's the 1st point. i'm forget that the 2nd part is that night. so on the west of the politically it retire this hardly a. what find it very, very difficult. difficult to back away from accepting you, trying into nathan members, even even under conditions dictated by russia. that's the 2nd. and the 3rd thing um

yep. strategically having ukraine in they say what type of advantages from the west and point of view, it would mean that you know, your trade in lights. i was left of it west, a new crime presented like what, what, what, what constitutes some kind of office on, with russia. ok. this beth as own would be the militarize zone that we know when they took by say there's no new to weapons. all kind of restrictions, but nevertheless, you'd have an independence pro western nathan member viewpoint actions above the folks that are real kinds of good reasons for um yeah, the west united states and i talked to it except such a deal. now it kept mentioning, this phrase, ukraine or what's left of it. and i think that's the, you know, the, the crux of the problem and a number of russian analysts indirectly driven there because they claim that the, what's, what is now being decided on the battlefield is where the boundary between russian and what's the security parameter will lie whether it's formal or informal and uh clearly a mosque was interested in pushing it further into your crane. but i'm not sure

it's wants to push it as far as, let's say, western new creative. it's very hostile and add to russian population. now, based on history based on the current sentiments where addressing done boundary equip live organically for, if there is such a term as organic boundary between russia in the west. i think as of now the natural boundary would be um, acceptance by you cried in the west of russia, the corporation of crime and until the default before additional provinces. and that in any way, that's the only option that leads to call and fost rush. why is that this guy rush? those, those territories are part of the part of a problem that's all right in the house you choose your yeah. so that's that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's the minimum. how far you go beyond that. yeah, it depends on, on the, on the war and, okay, some people argue that that may be your use goes far as hawk of as far as

a desa. the problem with that is, yes, that may, will, in a way that may, will be a natural cause historical cultural political badly. but it will be enormously costly for russia to actually occupied stock of and under the desk. okay. but the bottom line is, i, i don't see russia expanding any further into your cry then under the, in the book. now it also suggests that if the criminal have words to contemplate such a concession ukraine and it's western beckers would have to give the quote, cost iron commitments to ukraine's permanent demilitarization based within the framework of nathan membership. and the 1st of all, i, i'm not sure of the russians believe in any degree of firmness, alpha, quote, unquote, the western commitments. but on top of that, you know, demilitarized within the nature of framework, isn't it a bit like, i don't know, it's a writer with wipers, but well behaving. mice, i mean, like, uh,

even if and your question is the militarized and like it, if not, can you claim that is a problem for russia? it's beta. what, what do i do there is of kind of press of this kind of green because it goes when um, east germany was united with west job then became a spell and you have the kinds of talk nights of the agreement was the friend at that point. to where it was treated rush hour, so be a few days with restaurants, but it's always the danger and show up. but the pain was that there will be no nights or expansion into easter nichols have light from nature. nature, then expanded trees. jo, do a close expand it is a boating state suppose to add another country side for all precedents for the conditions on that one on, on the, on the on i chose a nitrogen expansion. yeah. now i think there's also a more recent precedent that's to support your case the case of to our k, a number of fresh leaders including quitters himself said that having trick is a part of nature is not that bad for russian because it contains that culture which

is an actual competitor, original competitor for russia. and i can see that the logic being applied to your brain. but i struggled to understand why i would need to want uh, you know, drive aged, highly traumatized, uh, very limply angry country or whatever left with as part of its notre long as you're actually pulling point the, you know, i think for the russian polite view, it's not ukraine's membership, the site back to don't have a match out. it was, it was a nighttime military built up in the use of ukraine as a tool, of course. absolutely. so if you pray that was left, it becomes part of a night of the other different conditions, then it's not such a it's not such a frightening development. we asked a question about, you know, why should this issue of trust? you're looking at the trust best buy for i see this is trust issues about the size . and the only way to, to work through the issue is to actually might make, make agreements and see what happens and try to make those agreements like the,

you know, as the rest of the like to say, yeah, yeah, trust, but very flock. but i ask you about the slightly different aspect of it. why would may to want, i mean, i had the sounds made of logic of having ukraine as you know, sort of send me affiliated member of its alliance and using it as a sort of battering ram again special. but if they actually have to take responsibility for your cranes, you know, angry and time since for rebuilding it for even providing it with some infrastructure, why would they need? and because they're losing all the benefits of that policy, i'm assuming all the cost high. i, i think for political reasons, i mean that that's why i'm not 50 thought. yeah. my i well, why do i could come forward with this suggestion that you, craig could become a member of nato honda. so in conditions that could be part of to the i was trying to think of a lie to police equally given the, what the west, the way out politically to back off from for the, for of the war with russia forever. brook brooks about that,

but that was my time kind of reasoning. so i think, you know, yeah, what paid i know most kind of challenges and all of us from all kinds of dysfunction. i'm sure that we play the voices, it would make us, i know we shouldn't, we shouldn't do this, but i think for political reasons, nights i would find it very different, very difficult to actually to august back on your crime completely and refused to, to allow in inter membership, you quote professor over so i hope you are right on that. but even though i'm, you know, to some extent it's uh, you know, facing the consequences of, of your own polio. you're saying it's no, i'm not making a prediction error or prophecy. i'm not sure what's gonna happen if i gets i'm likely. well i, i know what's gonna happen right now because we're going to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments extension. the

extra one is the parts best. geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history of university college park. now professor roberts, before the break, we talked about the russian rationale and they just logic. let's talk about the brain right now. and i think that's a very interesting case study because it's hard to find another country, the size of your brain. that's what so eagerly assumed the role of a client stage without the goal shading any developmental security guarantees for itself. and i mean, even israel, for example, and other clients they is very showed about um, you know, ensuring its own base. but the a frame sort of threw himself into the western embrace completely

without the, you know, asking actually from watch how do you understand the calculus of kids here? yeah, i did. it is, this is the most difficult. at 6 most difficult for me. i mean for you to once, that is why you crime shows because it did add on what still chooses to fight to, to fight on. it obviously is to do with the power of ukrainian nations and we did the emotional power as well as the political 5. you print the district. that'd be one thing. i think secondly, that was this. cuz faith belief in the west, in west sensible. i mean, i mean, western power says i persuaded themselves that they could, they could, they could win this war in some, uh, its in some form. okay. and now having tried that actually effectively last last the wall that just um, they're just playing on and waiting for something, something, something, something happened something to, to turn up. but look,

um yeah, i could probably pick them up public opinion or probably opinion and you're trying to shift as well. well, the opinion dice i've seen is that there's a gradual shift, some of the majority of the ukrainians leaving in the, the areas coverage occupied by you guys who want a compromise space. i think secondly, you know, you know, d u training and the police establish normally 5, i yeah. that they're out there. all kind of elements we've been established, or maybe on the fringes of it, who would be prepared to actually that the negotiated please me. a for see piece of this is the basis is made the best solution for me right now, i'm not, i'm just like giving 9 to perspective to will be introduced aside. let's just have a personal question that have ukranian votes and your credit is a very interesting collective psych you to me because i think it's has both very large entitlement and a very large material order to complex. you mentioned the, you know, the power of its national is meant to me is a little bit like me there was already to kill. it's on her own children because

she didn't get some things. and historically, i think this, you are a, was channeled very conveniently on to russia. but once you clean becomes part of the west, aren't you concerned that they so the of the target of its blames will shift of what you described is actually quite a typical phenomenon of small state nationalism. now, i know that ukraine is not particularly small side based as the most i associate getting smaller. okay, so why is this most i've associated with a, a big state and quite often. well, you know what, you, what you described, his sense of in combination of in type since we talked about and inferior article back. very, very typical of the nationalism um, oh, although of a small size. so anyway that, that's not the same. that's not unusual, but many outer space, a sort of middle space like turkey is,

or even poland. well pulling to a lesser extent that they've been quite skilful in playing, you know, big powers against one another. and this is what i want to ask you about. because i think leadership or the cultivation of belief is a very interesting subject because it takes time, it takes such a national hardship to produce the kinds of leaves cool, understand the deep dynamic, psychological and developmental dynamics of that population, but also worldly enough to position the country within the regional and global context to produce benefits for, for that people. yep. but that's, that's what happened for you. cried was thoughtful. so for uh, you know, for the 1st up to 25 years of independence of crime. that's exactly the gaming ukraine. like really yes, absolutely. until until 2014, when you get this definitive kind of split upon a few crime oaks definitively for the west. and that's when we don't hear back. professor roberts, i think you're going to have some of the best conditions, post soviet flaps. they had some of the best economies. they had pretty wide

industrial base. they have a, you know, woodland, they have a lot of people. uh, they have the good graces of the west. they also have the good have the good, the basis of pressure because russian was eager to keep them within the if not within the, within, it's all the done it within its economic environment. and yeah, they seem to waste it all on the some, you know, done something that, that, that, the, them, that those i'd love corruption and also that they also kind of fide, if the divisions, if the political divisions been di. what that meant was to be cried, never transitioned out of the ninety's, the kind of coyote politics, the 9th is continued or the what all the way for the articles to go see the new crime that i never had a breach. and tracy come of some stability is the power, all the sites that you know, some old and control and some and some direct is a very unfortunate effect. so, so concisely. right?

but going back to the point where i think the once to will if was i was to, was out of the, if you have was left of your train, comes part of the west is up for, it's already about the west. and that's the kind of judge i see the crime is a kind of a gonna sell it on the west of that point. that they're going to have a very, very different view and feeding tools to west when they see what has happened to the country. that they have the full, this proxy war on be around the office on the off was and i've suffered issued kind of trauma shoes. the damage issues lost a lot. i'm actually, i don't think they're going to play rush or, and the russians like that that is begging to blame the so called western allies in order to be a self sufficient country. they have to accept the, you know, for me was blame on, on you for me twice, blame on me. i mean they, sooner or later they will have to extend our own responsibility for that whole investigate destiny. and, you know, also develop some acumen and shrewdness in dealing with the nature of that. but do

you see developing i, i'm, i may be maybe not, i'm not sure i pull up to be a self sufficient country of any kind of life. some of the people in the western alliance. yeah. but, but they oh, shoot for it's really dependent cut. they need, they need very at least they need to keep a desk or at least access to a desk. they probably know. so i need to get the symbolic reasons they need to keep hawk on this. well, the most go now in the distance they, i think that we know that they're not there yet, but the prospect of a major military display for all your training metrics. labs, which get a fraction, a russian taken of a desperate hawk. i was, was all part of the rest of some of these new friends that actually might shop to mean to actually come into this senses and to enter in a make, i'm making the data right. i give gail, can you just give me up on this more, right. i'm making the necessary concessions a to the restaurant we are very, are very good. and i think historical argument, because historically russians have,

i said, have had the foresight of how you should treat your enemies in order to create, you know, conditions for lasting piece. it was the case both with the french and the, you know, with a gentleman says, well, i seen that's something that the, i think that's another very important part to modify the kind of argument behind. but i'm putting that, you know, that russia should make this very choose concession of allowing ukraine or poppy trying to become, become a member of my time to certain conditions is because i, i still russia want, has, and wants to have been having an attitude told you you probably know ukrainians as, as, as a, as a people. and if that attitude holds, fletcher wants to reconstruct his relations with you cried new style with the pricing of people on collaborative friends friendship. i re recreate, sometimes, even richard neighborhood, the anything, any progress,

anything. got you though like that, that didn't that, that, that then i need to, they need to give something to you crying. i love nation publicly. yes. he is quite a different thing. i remember hear you say they need to give something to credit and like made a membership on what i'm arguing for is that they have to consciously or recognize ukrainian dignity. and that's if the ukrainian state is to exist as a space, not just as a some fragment of made it, but as a stain that has some potential for self sufficiency down. if it needs searching and geographical by says, i have the impression that the list, the majority of russian public opinion and political repeatedly available, it would be on that page at okay. the minority of the russian nationalist suits the world wants to go. thoughts of, of that? but i think that's with that, that's where the sentiment is. michael's essential, that's one thing, strategy and politics. it is another und russia puts in the paper, russian people really,

i'm not going to consider any signature which kind of compromise the russian secure, but it's not going to pretend to them because it's not just about to ukraine. i mean, before i say either in a rush, i kind of have a ukrainian sensibilities at the top of its had bigger. at the end of the day, we're all talking about a tiny or a p and secure just structure is out of here written about as you said, that is the last thing someone them discussed with, with require crating a system that would contain rather than incubate conflicts. and i think the russians and did that best trying to negotiate some way out of the predicament was made or they weren't successful. washington said no. is there anything possibly that's good. the 1st way to change is perspective. i thought i don't want to was. yeah, but you, you, crane and the west, the feet in the war, this get my effects are trying to and that perspective on the basis of the ukraine could become part of nights on certain conditions. but that would need to be an overarching framework of common european security to act as

a consignment with that. and as a 1st, i thought of guarantee. definitely, you know, football sized. yeah. i mean, you know, the russians actually not russian, but the, somebody's before the, i think actually been fine since the 19th to strategy to create collective therapy . and the security structures, including the soviet union include, including in russia. but i've always kind of like stumbled against the fundamental fact that the in the west roster is the same as a rival in that. and when the apartment and a fresh and is quite track of it is tight and it may actually take this. will this tragic war to watch? you arrive a situation where there can be some kind of sensible negotiation about career creation, comics, comments, securities spread, professor robinson. this is going to be my last question for that to happen. what the west will have to part with is the idea of that. you know, it controls evolves into world economics, idea, logical, cultural, everything else. and there is an opinion in russia,

that's what russians are fighting against here. it is not just the, you know, part of europe and secure destructor that fighting and goes 500 years of western dominance, which is 1st and foremost based on the western military and dominance and the regions in both the soviet union in the 20th century. and i think russian more recently has managed to not necessarily arrival, but at least undermine if the west degrees to any sort of negotiations with russia. what does that affected? we mean that it's in here over the world. the shutter is, i mean, like, uh, it will have to you right off i, i, that's a lot to me. so that's what you, that's what the point you just make. and it brings us back to the plan. you're beginning of the, the discussion. why when you also, we are those of the situation to take the most and it's, it's dangerous is, gets even more multi just let me fund a bunch of guess the both actors because in the west or at least a substantial since 6 of the west is not prepared to give up on that self image of

it itself on western new jermel. it's not always the self image it say we, i know you know, it's turn the superiority. it's a constructive less guide on you crying just being there any existence you bye bye to the if the, if you cry loses the night to lose, you knew right then that going to lose that on the nation. the dad, germany on the west, a place of the world. and that's why the advertising, the most extreme measures to above a good outcome. so, so that's when it comes down to it, you know, the fundamental obstacle that you know to any, the swell of thousands line. and we've rochelle, with booty the, what it might do it lies with, with the west. and what is it actually capable of of trying to use fundamental well, if you, any sceptics accepting it a different, a different set of relationships with the prime refresher and in europe as a whole movement. and i would add to that, that ultimately what the west as the finding a gas is not the russian, it's fighting history and history. it has certain objective trends saying that even

the west can know it's and again, but the, let's leave it for some other time. it's been great talking to you again. thank you . thanks very much. thank you for watching cope to sir again on was a part of the a beautiful sun soaked, the vineyards nestled among some rest, taking the rolling hills as a gentle breeze comes off of the surrounding sea comic the imagery of french one country. but this is not france. we are in

a coupon at russia on the black sea where recently they've got a serious about making some world class one the conflicts it in the cracks down on believe of an archbishop of wonderful is that all today is the oldest charges, the kansas, the west over the factory in the past succession of christians, in ukraine, tons of kids that the to out to the nation. the most guy who owns the premium preparation for an attack on the cost. and you should have how plausible on the way to find supports the cube is timing a dot people publication on as in denice or celebrate 79 years old. independence from dodge roles as people pull on to the streets and part of our to with palestine. knowledge in the world to run out forms of.