innovation, especially the students, the students who get getting what are to come in in various activities, going to be in the space of a set of please activities into the the well that's the big now thanks for watching . i seem to get the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the

hello and welcome to the cross topic where all things are considered on peter live out. we're told us president joe buying does not want to stand off with russia over ukraine to trigger a global war. the evidence suggests just the opposite. nature now uses ukraine to attack russia, have no doubts. russia will respond to the cross talking nato. i'm joined by my guess, dimitri lot scholars in athens. he's a lawyer and the freelance journalist involved we have carlos out. he is a political analyst historian and host of the silk and steel pod cast and invasion . we cross the she, when she is a international affairs commentator as well as a cvt and radio reporter right across top roles. and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate carl, let me go to you 1st and bali a far from the fray and ukraine here. i mean, it's really quite remarkable. we have this new phrase now adapt in

a just that's what nato is doing right now when it comes to arming ukraine, except for now. oh, you can use nato equipment to ship just a little bit into rushes territory, which of course we've been doing for over a year now. but now that's part of their adapt and adjusted me. this is the path to war and it's a nay toe war against russia. they can no longer say they're not part of the conflict. they've been part of the conflict from day one. is there a matter of fact they started this conflict? go ahead karl. well, this nato is losing its proxy war against russia. right now, is our scrambling try to do whatever they can try to salvage the situation. its, um, so is there a certain did not have to be more upfront in about 30 involvement. but, you know, politicians in washington have been very explicit. we say this is a war. this is a proxy, words are fighting russians using the ukranian, they're fighting russia to the last ukrainians. this has always been their policy.

well, it's very interesting. let's go to our guest in beijing. we keep hearing about ukraine has the right to self defense. well, it's a solver and country, of course it has the right to self defense, but nato's approach to this conflict. this proxy war is karl's pointed out. here. russia is not allowed to have the idea of self defense, so you have american weapons in ukraine going into russia. it's killing civilians because it's a primarily what they've done so far. and russia is war not to react with. this is not how it works. russia will obviously react, and it is all russia's already warns the west that it will go ahead and basically you're right here actually as press them to teen. so the risk monthly is the nato. and the also us, let's nato is. this is

a restriction for ukraine to use lessons weapons there. there won't be serious consequence on that. and actually we know that, so just a, as you mentioned, that the beginning that lincoln said that the us position was the hallmark of the by the m. the stations stands on ukraine to adapt and adjust as needed. so we can see that the u. s. policy is foreign policy has been changing time over time, and it's always contradicts itself. and it's also more interesting is that person by then i said he will not attend. the upcoming summit is, was a lens despise the lensky is urging by them to go. but instead of the biden is sending his vice president her us to be the or so i think this is some kind of ironic to see that the us approves you, chris, but ukraine's you solve on the west and supplied weapons. russia,

which was indeed to escalate the conflict in the region. and so, so i'm highly doubtful about the upcoming re, uh, results of the peaceful. yeah, i want to talk about that in the 2nd part of the program. dimitry. i mean, again, you know, i adapt in a chest. i mean, this is a farce. i mean, the goal is always been nothing to do with ukraine. it's about to inflict a stranger to feed on russia. this has been the policy from the get go. now saying, allowing the ukrainians to use these weapons to shoot missiles and drones into russia. it's some ne toe forces that are the command and control of those missiles and drones. these are americans and europeans making the targeting ordinance and everything else related to firing these arms. i mean, this is absolutely a farce. and of course zalinski,

his name is already been mentioned here. he wants this, he wants nato to go to war, to over for his country. and this is something that the united states and nato seemed to be quite willing to go and, and proceed. go ahead, dimitri, as well, the targeting, which is clearly coming from american military personnel because you've trained, doesn't have the capacity to do that. the manufacturer of the web and switch is clearly coming from the united states. and united states doesn't even deny that is only part of the story. in addition, you have us military personnel. they may not be formally designated as active members of the military, although some of them are, if they've been trained by the us military and other western powers, fighting alongside the opinions on the front line. you have the training. again, this is not being denied tens of thousands of ukrainian soldiers trained to native standards, whatever that means by the admission of western governments. you have that as a,

an economic work that was being waged on with asha again, the western powers were not denied this. they were openly bragging about the economic warfare the wage, and it has been a disaster in every conceivable respect. this has been a war binding to against russia and that has been cleared from the outset. and this whole non sense that uh, this is simply a ukrainian war with the support of nato. it's something that we ought to have seen 3 months ago. this phrase, by the way, adapt and the just, it's a relative phrase. it begs the question of, what are they adapting and adjusting to yep. what they ducting and adjusting to is a crushing loss on the printing battlefield. so they're responding bite to this crushing loss which they've now realized. they cannot avoid by taking the fight or trying to in deep into the territory of russia with the for rent this consequences that potentially entails. so people need to wake up and listen to the french anthropologist emmanuel todd who offered a book recently which said,

which was titled, world war 3 has begun. it has folks, yes i, i've done a program on that dimitry. we are in the, in world war 3 right now. and we, we, could you actually talk maybe another program about how the different blocks are lining up. i agree with that completely. you know, car of the, this, this whole a adapt in a just, i mean, is giving the, the green light then this is all the public relations been here for ukraine to do that. of course. so it's nato. that's going to be doing that in ukraine and outside of ukraine, quite possibly. but that doesn't change the conditions of the battlefield in ukraine. you could take out a refinery in russia, but it's not going to change the course of the conflict and ukraine. again, this has nothing to do with ukraine. what it has to do is, is to push russia into a much more aggressive posture. that's what they want. and they'll say, see that guy started it. that's exactly what they're trying to do, carl. and that's exactly what they're trying to do, the, whatever they do,

you know, strike is deeper into rush, or that's not going to have any material of effect on the outcome of the work in ukraine. because right now, russia is having the upper hand on the battlefields, no matter what, whatever this i just adjustment nato is making, is not making a difference. all it does is to make the russian public to rally more solidly behind, present food and in its special uh, military operation, ukraine. so i don't. right, it's, it's really, this is really a lot very desperate. last ditch effort or by the nato alliance to salvage. it's uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a face saving operation now. well, i mean carl, i mean i, i use the metaphor, a face saving, but essentially what they're going to get is a go on their face, which really bothers me here. let's go back to our guest in beijing because the

more nato lose is and the more a deploys and losing strategy, the more aggressive the nato alliance is going to be come, because they do, they do not want to lose face. they are the ones that are saying, if we lose and ukraine, russian tanks were roland to paris or to the, to the english channel, which is absolutely absurd. even american and british intelligence have agreed with that. but that's not the public relations when the problem here is that we're having to contend with a public relations campaign from the west and not in about realities on the ground . go ahead and basing to your right peter, actually if you look at the utah uh about over 99 percent of those supplies, uh, whether the military supply, initial supply were from in many tarion, 8 to ukraine, came from nato and the us. so if they're not peering those weapons to ukraine, this conflicts could have, i mean, see a result and at least have

a back to the negotiation table earlier than what we're seeing today. and you're right. we are seeing that are the mainstream media in the glass to have being not very so i'll say balanced when it comes to is reports on the rush or you create conflict. and i just, i think that's why it's important for us to have this conversation. now, and to talk about like we, we don't, we, we don't, we no longer need, you know, like the east restrictions on the west and make that post to you print. and what's more interesting is that you have um, if you could recall that for many times we hear us officials are saying and washington well finds onto the last of the ukrainian it's right. so that's very, yeah, that's very erotic because is there notes by t on till the last of america or the last off the you for appeals, they're fighting on to the last of the well entry. and so, and plus, you know, they're making a lot of money in the process. okay,

that the profit motive is in play here. you know, demetrius, they keep saying they want to, you know, buy, adapting, and adjusting to improve ukraine's position at the negotiating table. well, number one, there is no negotiating table, no one is invited, rush into it, and the longer they do this, the smaller ukraine get. so what is improving their position? go ahead, dmitri, as well, the so called any any so called peace conference that doesn't include your adversary is not a conference of peace. it's a conference of war. what they're trying to do, obviously, for those of us who are saying and objective is marshall more support to put pressure on russia to capitulate. and the terms that the lensky has articulated from the outset, are precisely that there are complete and utter capitulation, which takes no account of the legitimate grievances of russia. it takes no account of the crew in 2014. it takes no account of the human rights abuses of the russian

speakers in the dawn bass. it takes no account of the assurances that were given at border shop that nato would not expand one inch eastward. it gives no account to russia's legitimate concerns about nato nuclear tipped missiles, just a few 100 miles from moscow on ukrainian territory. this is a demand for capitulation to demand and capitulation. and that's why so many major countries are not going to participate here. we're just going to jump in here, we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break will continue our discussion on nato state without the the i wanted to come here since i was 12. when my grandfather told me that his mom came from russia that we were, i was part russian. i didn't plan on staying this long. i was gonna look around, i was gonna see if it was for me. but then i came. and then i was like, i remember when i go home,

i've never been happier in life than i am here in most of the i've only lived here a few months, but i wanted to tell you what fascinates me about russia and share the stories of other foreigners who lived here like jay, who worked as a chef and now raises gods and makes cheese in the countryside series, like chad who has been granted political asylum because he's being persecuted by the s b. i. us, embassies. and for countries that come after me it's, it's wild like an american family that recently moved to russia with 6 children. i've never felt safe or land tire life then living here the holiday we're looking at. i was in a dream live for dreams come true. we

have approximately 10000000 people in california that are risk of becoming on house looks good. and then somebody for working to pretty jobs and still not enough because of the cost of living also has increased co bags and still buying shift last year long. the amount of of homeless rose by 12 percent in california. the the welcome back across stock where all things are considered. i'm curious about your mind, you were discussing nato, the . okay, let's go back to carl involved. you know, we've already mentioned this ridiculous a peace conference, so called peace conference that will be held this month from the 15th. they think

they're in switzerland. it's with the oddity of it all is that we have a, a piece proposal from the chinese. we have one from africa. i think the, even the pope's, even the prophecy weighed in there's, there's a lot of piece plans out there. if you look at the, the, the demands that the russians sent out in december of 2021, to nato, into the united states about, um, securing a new security architecture in europe. those that is actually part of the process. but they're all ignored. that's a long introduction, carl, the saying, the west has no idea about how to bring peace. all they do is know how to keep the war going on. that's. that's obviously true from their policies over 2 years. go ahead. that has been in the west has so much hubris that you did. it denies the rush that you've been have legitimate security interest, present putting the has made it very clear call back in 2000 no 7 unix security

conference or the award the west that it could no longer make a mockery of russian security interest and re neck owns or promises for ever, and now we have witness. what happened? well, but what, what we're witnessing right now is the, the nato establishment itself is inc, still in denial, in our total failure to degrade russia's capability on the, on the battlefield. the ukrainian manpower is being depleted. russia has the issue, russia has the upper hand, and this is why they have to act. they have to, there's a natal forces have to be more upfront about 30 involvement because then ukrainians are not holding up the. ready uh, holding up their, their line against russian offensive right now. well, you know, it is um, when and in beijing the chinese proposal is probably the most balanced of them all. okay. it,

it taught it talks about in terms of how to get to an end game. every country should have secure borders. there are so sovereignty should be respected. those are the details, but that's a good way to start. that's how you start the negotiation process. and what we have with this is a landscape piece plan, so called, which was probably drafted in london or in a, in washington d. c is basically say russia, you must admit defeat. okay. you, you should a surrender to, to, to the 1st ukrainian tank. you say, i mean that's not how it works. it's, this is like, there's no imagination when it comes to diplomacy in the west anymore. of your rights peter actually, you know, the past us are aligned to the, uh, the assignments in singapore. so let's be, he was so choosing, trying out for now, taking his sides, actually, i'm trying to, there's no such a thing as trying to is pressuring other nations now to attend the p summit in

space, atlanta, north. it is helping russia to disrupt the summit. in fact, as your motion to turn his position on the rush, how you create conflict has been very consistent and it does not target any specific party. and searchlight does not have post assignments. in fact, as the motions turn to us position on those, i would say a counselor to remain the house of 2 or 3 important elements in china's perspective. that a successful piece um it should have the 1st as that recommendation of a from both russia and ukraine. the 2nd does that equal participation of both parties. and the last is that a fair discussion all possible peaceful tense. however, if we look at the situation now, obviously the upcoming summit in space of land has not met these 3 important

criterias on 1st, the summit was not recognized by russia. the 2nd on this time it did not invite russia. and 3rd, law of the most important players in this conflict was not invited to the table. how can we guarantee the are going to be an open dialogue to ensure a possible peaceful, you know, a plan coming all the help this i met? so i think that's those 6. the most important reason why china is now participating because china believes that so a peaceful conference, i mean the carmen's, the upcoming peace conference, individual loans kind of sharply plague a substantive role to resolve the issue. me over. i think it's important to point out that so not participating into the assignment does not mean china does not support peace and for search. and they shows or participate into the assignment. does not mean they are genuinely supporting piece. because, i mean,

trying to just does not want to see that the upcoming summit to become a platform, to support, you know, confrontation among cans or, you know, all it's going to be is a p r son for nato. that, that's it. and, and their academy, and they're going to have their, i, a list, or out as a lensky who's legitimacy is quite dubious at this point in time and violating the, the constitution of ukraine. you know, dimitri, what i worry about. and i've worried about since the 1st day of this conflict and i, i, i know i cited on this program eventually we will get to an article 5 crisis. i believe that now more than ever your thoughts. yes, i think we are typically heading that direction because russia will be left as the alternative. yes, already. so there that it's going to have to strike military assets in western in, in central or western europe. i think that's quite clear. for example. ready

there's a large staging area in poland from which a number of these weapons, a lot of training and a lot of intelligence has gathered. this is under international law. clearly a legitimate target in russia has refrained from striking it for months. but it's very clear that it will have no alternative, they keep attacking military targets deeper and deeper interruption to create the key question, of course, is going to be, as russia has said explicitly, how will the united states respond when russia inevitably attacks one of these european legitimate military targets, if the people of the united states have their way, the united states will stay out of it. but the product, but the problem here and those of us who live, you know, have a front row view of what goes on united states as i do because i spend a lot of time in canada, is that the united states political lead doesn't care what the people want, it couldn't care less about the interest of americans if the americans had their way. uh, there would be a lot less military spending, and these wars of aggression would never have happened. so this is the real danger

is that the us politically will respond to the article 5 call from europe that will inevitably come despite the demands of the populace to refrain from world war 3 in its hottest phase. we're already in a low intensity world where 3 is we talked about peter, but we're heading to the heart is night. i suspect we're going to end up in a full blown conflagration and i hope very much that i'm wrong. well, i hope you're wrong, and i hope i'm wrong. but it, carl, there's a certain logic of this. one of the, the biggest problems that we've faced in this conflict is the idea of deterrence has been so degraded by the west. see if, if you want to have the idea of a mutual assured destruction deterrence, both parties have to believe in that theory. that's how we got through the cold war . but we have one party now that is throwing that to the side, rushes saying we will have to deter this type of a salt on this. but the west doesn't speaking that idiom anymore. and that's why

everything is becoming extremely unstable. because if you have long range missiles or f sixteens, okay, and they leave a, a, a base in poland and they're on a mission. rush is not going to know if they have nucular tip the missile or not. you don't take those kinds of chances. what you do is say, if we say a plane like that, it's going to be destroyed and they're going to say it upfront. and then you know what they're going to say carl. the russians are bluffing. russians don't bluff, they act carl. so western politicians are playing a very dangerous game of chickens right now, and i very much hope dimitry is wrong, even though i very much respect his analysis. you know, during the cold war nixon have pioneered the so called madman theory, where east to west acts likes a complete cycle. the other side will back down this. this was work we, sylvia union by today's russia,

is quite different. political entity fung soviet union of yesteryear, mr. putting has shown that he will not risk. he will not spend dollars from thread for nato. and so we're going to see we're going to see user a. nato will be called always on bluff or we'll have room worst to base for the sake of everyone here. i hope demetrius wrong, and i hope that those the natal blocks will be call and they will back down. and i think i alternately, people work in the military industrial complex in, in washington they, they're altima game is to lining their own pocket. well, i mean, what i think call you're on to something what, what they, what like, like is threats. they need a threat, inflation they, but if you go to the wall, then you lose your business model. okay. i mean that, that's kind of, you know, that's kind of the logic of it all here. when in, in, in beijing,

i suppose china is watching all of this very, very closely. because the, the, what the americans would like is a nato in, in asia, in the pacific. and we know what targets they have. it is tie one here. so i hope that the, the folks in beijing are learning from the dirty tricks from the west. you know, you're right where, you know, many times people will compare like the case happened, the crane with taiwan. but the thing is, taiwan is totally different because it's now the country is not like ukraine type was part of china and, and that's been great by most of the countries in the world. and also by the us us, the greece was the one china principal. but the, but without i, i agree with you dear, but they don't act that way. they don't act is a big part of the same kind of difficult you guys for him. policy is this one thing, but apps another setting trying to is fully throughout that and trying to well, i mean,

the remaining is consistent foreign policy on ty one. and so i think the world agree was even the un like in the past. the world health or event, the un recognize china is the only legal country in the u. n. so i think that the, the global and community support stats. yeah. but you know, and unfortunately we've seen the united states and it's relationship with china throwaway. just about every important bilateral agreement going from the, the point of breaking diplomatic relations. and so we see a templates in europe and we see a template in asia. and what it's called is the rules based order. and when you hear the rules base order, you should be afraid as all the time we have. i want to thank my guess in athens while we and of course in beijing. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us

here are tc and next time. and remember crossed off the line. scott bennett, i'm former united states army psychological warfare officer, really served in the state department counterterrorism office under investor del daily the, the so i wanted to come here to russia in the dawn bass area and to gather the facts, to take back to the american people the

hold on bass of the front lines and the square, the bombs and the bullets are raging. this is where people are dying. this is where the buildings are exploding the law. i wanted to see 1st hand the scars of war. the . it's almost like almost a cliche in the west, but this whole idea of with my, to the last your brain in that some truth behind it. i mean, think about it for the americans. $60000000000.00 for the reason. a package. small, lots of money. a lot of money stays within the united states in terms of the defense contracts and the like and pulled out money that, you know, they fight side like prolonged a wall to keep russia busy. you know, this is the, ultimately, this, what the west is doing is on a file, you know,

try for the west to take him and the, the breaking news that disturbing images from the south of russia at uprising at the gym and the bulk of dr. region is suppressed by special forces, also for inmate space to revolt and to cost it is of moscow says p f as lost more than $5000.00 soldiers and it's ongoing in cost. in a to russia are 2 visits, one area which became a bottle brand. the ukrainians, they have been using little about 5 hours to hits a strictly civilian area. this is