francisco historic preservation commission regular meeting this afternoon at 12:30 pm., wednesday, june 5, 2024.) >> historic preservation commission regular meeting this afternoon at 12:30 pm., wednesday, june 5, 2024. >> members of the public we ask i line up on screen side of the room limited to 3 minutes per speaker and when forgotten the responsibilities as the caretakers of this place, as well as for all peoples who reside in their traditional territory. indicating your time is up and now take the next person best practices clearly and slowly and complete include your name for the record and members of the public the commission again tolerate any disruptions. >> president matsuda here. >> vice president nageswaran here. >> commissioner baldauf here. >> commissioner foley present. >> commissioner campbell here

great a full commission and i at this time, members of the public may address the commission on items of interest to the public that are within the subject matter the subject matter of the commission except agenda items. with respect to agenda items, your opportunity to address the commission will be afforded when the. okay. one member of the public. >> feel free to begin. >> good afternoon, commissioners richard for sdrous i work for the city and county of san francisco here and speaking to you as the president of information and in the historic preservation commission last time a meeting i spoke about the development project that is proposed for 1687 market street dwooshd the building and i am here to give you an update and did further update and the developer is um, trying to do

streamline permitting for that project to avoid coming before the demolition and discovered that project is not eligible under ab 2011 the housing is one 5 hundred feet of a freeway and to be sure i found a letter for the state of california to the city of santa ana about the freeway with ab 2011 that freeway entrance right there across from market is considered a freeway i wrolt wrote a letter to the developer labeled of concern and identifying this project was not eligible under ab 2011 so it should be hopefully the same um, finding

that is planning department makes i'm watching the project everyday and to make sure they came up with the same communication and one 1144 the planning code for projects requiring multiple planning approval for hpc should review and act to alter to demolish any other approval of actions should come before this for that demolition permit that's pretty sure the update address i'll continue to give you updates. >> wanted to say appreciate everything that you do for the city and county of san francisco. um, i think we're all lucky and grateful to have a historic preservation commission so tida's thank you for all you

do and appreciate your time (bell ringing) . thank you. >> any other public comment please step up to the podiums seeing none, other additional public comment move on to the next item and make it feet not on sfgovtv this is an as it running long sfgovtv so the historic preservation commission meeting been live on sfgovtv and streaming on the second channel at this time department matters. >> good afternoon, commissioners. with the department staff and um, a couple of items for you today. should have received the 2022, freddie mac via e-mail for your

>> maybe i unloaded the wrong thing but a draft of discussions was k4r5irgd from the planner to the dr c and that um, when i reviewed it had comments that was correct in my mind i don't know if we need to defer approval of those until those are before the full commission or a commission or write and clarification so the questions

or comments is regarding my general matters for the committee as a whole any comments on a specific item is reflected under b-2. >> okay. a a so we have a basically a discussion that was made by the commissions and do you mind as part of this case i saw not were complicated this text didn't reflect all of that. >> so we can do i recommend you defer to a district hearing and when commission um, the director of the commission affairs is back we can follow-up on the comments. >> motion to defer. >> second. >> this is different

(rustling of papers.) so as matter of procedure a motion and successor the adoption of ra c minutes as well as the hpc minutes for point of order, we will probable ask the maker of the minutes for adoption of may 15th. >> i had a question with the ar c-1 of the items on the agenda? >> on the (inaudible). >> um, elizabeth staff yes. the c of a on the item went to ar c. >> so what did that mean.

>> the staff report will reflect any denounces point ar c has at that time and so - if for point of order the case itself so any reflective is occurring on the matter itself so- >> so in the case reporting. >> right. >> i'm amend to adopt the hpc minutes for may 15th. >> second. >> the seconder was commissioner campbell. >> oh. >> so sorry to clarify our motion it is only to adopt the hpc minutes from draft minutes for hpc may 15, 2024. on the matter for the draft minutes for hpc may 15, 2024. commissioner vergara, yes.

>> commissioner campbell, yes. >> commissioner wright, yes. >> vice president nageswaran right and president matsuda that passes 7 to zero. >> so at this time recommend that either the commission continue the adoption of the minutes for the ar c to the next hpc meeting that will be on may 19th. >> i'm sorry june 19th how for the comments on the ar c at the. >> i think i understood that the june 19th meeting it cancelled. >> i'm sorry. >> actually you're correct the next hpc meeting will be july 17th a right. >> so basically. >> (multiple voices.) >> just to clarify the commissioner foley to continue

the ar c minutes from and seconded by commissioner vergara any public comment on the minute from may 1st move on to the vote, commissioner baldauf, yes. >> commissioner vergara, yes. >> commissioner wright, yes. >> vice president nageswaran and president matsuda that motion passes. 7 to zero so the item the draft minutes for the ar c is approved to the hpc meeting on july 17th. >> okay. move on consideration of adoption:• draft minutes for arc may 1, 2024. >> any quiz. >> commissioner vergara request questions regarding san francisco designated landmark to

the register will the resolution or a message from the body be helpful or neutral or - >> commissioners elizabeth planning staff. i certainly can pass to resolution and the staff can forward it to the state. just kind of well clarifying your interest and the matter for the commission. >> i think we need to adjust that. >> is that; correct. >> we can - as a commission questions or comments make sure on the next agenda for the july 17th meeting? >> that. >> if that body thinks it is also be helpful. >> put it on the agenda and then we'll decide great vice

president nageswaran. >> just disclosing i was approached by the ownership of the hotel the sponsor to just to, inc., discuss with them the issues. i i did not take that invitation but suggested they provide responses to the previous questions that came up in the previous hearing. so um, want to mention three and also regarding the mattress building grateful to mr. k for doing that research something on my mind as well. um, and you found something that was relevant to that so we're grateful to you for doing that thank you and i'm i don't know when we would see that project or in front of us but maybe you can. >> uh-huh. >> yes. if you can keep us

informed you yes. exactly. >> we're aware of the issue and keep you advised. thank you. >> you thank you commissioner baldauf. >> yes. i'm also i did receive e-mail and not able to respond to joe i don't anything to report on that but go to the mattress question of and maybe you can send us the apartment what our authority for the issuance or non-issuance of demolition permit not clear what we're asked to do rule on so i would like to do my homework. >> so commissioner baldauf a

point of order we can't discuss if you have questions for the department you're welcome to ask the staff to follow up on specific questions but in terms of having a discussion on the property we can't have that at the hearing not on the agenda. >> i think that i guess what i'm asking for is staff to reach out to me to explain the process by which we will be asked to opine on the demolition permit. >> provide you with information. >> yes. >> that's possible. >> okay. great.. thank you. >> um, i also wanted to thank you, mr. k for doing our research and a very good strong advocate for the historic preservation commission it helps i know that the planning department also appreciates your due diligence and really keeping track of has going on and about

our historic research in the city i would like to see if we can add didn't say to be in the near that future but maybe for a august or september to do another discussion or a rereview on the city survey i think we have two new commissioners who have not received all of the information about what has been done on the city survey where it is today. >> what the future um, areas of the city will be serving and the rational so maybe i don't know maybe august or september? >> i think that would be great. thank you. >> and then um, yeah to make sure that um, it is on the agenda for our july um, hpc commission meeting about a

letter to the ship 0 and should be copied to the state commission? >> any other comments from the commission this is a moving on i think we're ready to do the next agenda item. >> great. we move on to the next agenda item. >> 3. commission comments & questions. disclosures. no items proposed for continuance and we'll move on to the regular calendar 4 ab and d and e for the legacy business. >> specifically we're looking at the legacy business um, applications for 1030 bryant street and 414 mason street and

2024-004141lbr and 2024-004146lbr. >> today 5 legacy business registry and afterwards the members of the public will have a chance to speak i'm to pass it to williams to begin the presentation. thank you. >> good afternoon commissioners williams planning department staff the first legacy business application is the club founded in 1916 in the back of a barber shop the club constructed the building at mariposa today is a hospitality venue as a an essential space

for many groups in san francisco and one of the best dance floors in the city it practices musical and all thursday night queer and line dancing classes and local school congratulations and weddings and church services in san francisco which has lost the social clubs it is the constant for sound engineers and dance teachers and service workers and caterers and more. it continues to be owned and appropriated by one hundred and fifty members and has an entertainment for music and dance and celebrations and this is exempt to preserving the architecture of the building and historic ball rooms with

fire stations and the planting supports this and recommendations a resolution staff for the legacy business registry and now pass to on to luke. >> good afternoon commissioners williams planning department and the second legacy business applications is the roberts a one hundred and 14-year-old whole retailer serving specials in beef and pork and corn is as fifth family owned business the oldest in and famous for the or they're in house beef and always offers products to shops and restauranteurs and others. and among roberts meats the loyal

consumers with the fire department and san francisco police department for corn beef year-round and robert corned meats along with maintaining our giant turkey above the building and the windows for the brands and staff supports this application and recommendations that at at the legacy business. >> good afternoon, commissioners. and norma department staff with the third legacy business. so the legacy business is mp a design a landscape urban design firm that is found in 1969 by michael patient. the first time is looked no the union square as

has three thousand completed projects over the past 5 decades has contributed to the growth and vibrancy of the san francisco bay area to have spinal products and including the boyle drive redesign plan and the state hotel and the great how and ocean beach reduction plan and many other projects and founder michael patient in directed by his wife the department is supportive of this application and this resolution recommending mp a for legacy business register and now pass to on the john. >> planning staff the fourth

legacy business application for the boutique and black/african american between eddy and thank you, your honor at the time it opened was one of the only hair salons with curls have requested services and betty trained with jose what clients is melissa and little richard and others. traernl james brown would stop by before performing at the fillmore or the fairmont hotel and with that itself prime location on fillmore it are support with references to the neighborhood with the elder of the royal senior housing which shares the building with the salon to providing services for

girls for the police league and john an boutique helps with the porn social 5i6789 community and staff supports this and recommendations a resolution to add joanne's to the legacy business and now to michelle. >> hello commissioners michelle planning staff. >> this last legacy business application we have today is for bob pastry a 71 years old doughnut shop in a lower nob hill neighborhood and has products and a gathering space meet me above and the drag icon has helps with the cops to build trust and relationships with the

wanting officers and the business has partnered with nonprofits for free doughnuts and the donations for their fundraiser and bob doughnuts and pastries helps with the offering of fresh doughnuts 24/7 and staff supports this application and recommendations to add bobs doughnuts to the legacy business register this concludes the presentations for today. >> thank you. >> great at that time take public comment on items 4 ab and c and d and e if i library like to special feel free to line up on the screen see of the room. thank you. >> good afternoon commissioners a lovely day outside you're stuck in here get out and . >> but want to

to all three of them my you believe was a member of the club where owe passed away over having years he loved the doughnuts we helped joanne's beauty boutique throughout the application and i'm a member of western edition for 50 years not old yet (laughter) but it is the last like business historical at fillmore street in the neighborhood that is survived the west and the pandemic that happened so - as i say the legacy to put in her shop and hopefully the shop will stay there after she's gone she

turned 8 three she's still doing hair she's not here doing hair so this legacy business is a big deal and, you know, for all three and everybody has a legacy status here to support her and couldn't let her go by without that and have to get her application in and get that going. >> i hope she's listening to you on tv. >> hello commissioners, i time to congratulate anyone with the legacy business program i'll loving this club on the list to be neementsd not only because a beautiful stunning inside kept in excellent repair but sets the service and have been fortunate

to hold our international symposium at the club twice and will be doing that if september and like to invite you and the the other thing is on the list is bob's doughnuts i'm lucky to live two blocks from bob and have been a consumer regularly since 1976 when i moved to san francisco we really appreciate um, you voting yes on all the would you have businesses and thank you, for making this legacy business of such a success. thank you. >> thank you. >> good afternoon. i am with - my family ones bob do of the united states so thank you for with our application and thanks

intro greg for helping out with the application it is yeah my been in my family for three generations my grandmother took over from bob in the 70s so, yeah we've been around and expanded and very happy to be here and thank you for considering. >> thank you for continuing it. >> good afternoon. thank you for this opportunity to um, address the committee today i'm dolores the fact i'm the current president of club and you already heard a wonderful history that took twrirdz of what i was going to say away but i'll point out some things maybe not so obvious if you go through the history social clubs part of

fabric with the first immigrants came into the city and had coaxed and networks for their social benefits and general benefits. the early clubs like this club is oversight nick and i large projects during the mid 20 century like the moose were expanding in the city with similar goals. um, but sadly towards the end of 20 century the ability of social clubs to sustain membership again declined for the numerous reasons. changing landscapers and changing priorities and changing world values while the club opposed to other the nick

groups they participated in their own organizations appropriately called - until 2023 and after 97 years as an all male club the board of directors voted to allow women to merge the club into the main club at that point we enjoyed new enthusiasm and caliber at the club as a result, the leadership and our membership have fully embraced manipulating we have passed a resolution at the club to continue our support for the performing arts in san francisco by parading affordable spies space for artists and professionals three teach the arts and to host all events open to the community. i'm happy to say 5 out of 6 nights have dance

with the country queer line dancing a (bell ringing) tremendous success so we are excited to continue forward with um, this and other types of events and with your help and support in providing us with that um, status we hope to enjoy and have another one years at the club. thank you very much. (bell ringing) >> good afternoon. my name is bonnie and i representing the club. so what marrow can i potential say about the vera did i club you may not know what transpired from 2018 to the present i entered the club in

2018 and fell in love and saw in any parents that is the place for me. um, but it was just kind of a mess. and the membership had declined it was a different kind of state and was in the front of the building extraordinary but someone again in the 1970s had attached an awning and started to raise havoc with the plaster it is really on extraordinary building but you walk inside and at that point hardly any detail that was sad a professional interior

designer people approached me any a 6 year odyssey of a lot of attention to the details that was demand for the club and working on bringing that up to snuff so maybe we would goat 5 or 6 out of every we can do better not one or two and we prevailed the club is up and i'm very proud of the fact we up remain affordable well, here's an example that you'll love live band and 5 course meals and wine on the table, $45 for members and 55 for others amazing in san francisco and so this is were dedicated to be friendly and given back to the firefighters and um, as the event in sonoma

our toys for to the the san francisco brand and ongoing we're a generous generous community partner so thank you for considering us and we're honored to be you. >> thank you. >> (bell ringing) >> very last call for public comment on items 4a through e the legacy business applications. and seeing none, public comment is closed. at this time. >> thank you, councilmember russ i love bob doughnuts and posted on instagram everyone said, "yes, i went and had a second and thank you, bob's

doughnuts. >> thank you commissioner vergara. >> want to thank all 5 businesses for the work you do to apply i know that time consuming. i want to say appreciatively appreciate the sign in the window of um, roberts corn beef corn beef which is - one of the days i'm going to learn what that means to corn something i look forward to all 5 of the businesses being in the past port book and 15 down and 10 to go. >> thank you, commissioner wright >> i want to thank you all for your diligence in working through the applications and for (clearing throat) for your community services really. it is clear that um, all

5 of those businesses super valuable to the culture of san francisco and to the community. and hearing the stories and reading the panthers packets. >> i'm going to join in but say but all the businesses as a san franciscan meant to my life my sons eight grad congratulations congratulations party and i - i don't know what i would do in the turkey disappeared from off the front of the building i think we're going to have it become a real

landmark that is a landmark for me. am i haven't had my hair done but i think i need to make omicron an appointment (laughter) and it matt patient was a really inspirational figure in san francisco? the first design professional landmark business i've gotten to vote on i want to say um, there's no one who i would be more proud to support than matt for this honor so thank you all and you all have made san francisco a special place that it is. >> agree vice president nageswaran. >> i of the intrigued with the vera did i club i think that is

beautiful and glad you support it and the social networking we get back to you appreciate that. >> thank you for that and joanne's we need to just, you know, frequent that place. what a wonderful business and legacy in that area and roam amenity of fillmore and so, so thank you. you can expect all the commissioners to have dinner at the club and the great desert at i want to thank joanne to hear the last business i'm on the

fillmore that represents what the fillmore used to be makes me sad but proud and even though she's 8 three years young what the strength to go on and remember three the fillmore a black business or a just needs business when i walk down the fillmore i see little of that history i'm glad to hear joanne has a supportive clientele we're behind her and will come and visit her a motion to um, support - mr. c rick i don't know if you intentionally made a variety of businesses during our commission hearings i love if we have businesses from all parts of the city and we have um, such

a great unique um, group of people that we all need to honor to thank you for that. >> so moved. >> second. >> great. thank you, commissioners we have a motion to approve items 4a b work c and d and e with an approval for the legacy business on that motion. >> commissioner baldauf, aye. >> commissioner campbell, yes. >> commissioner wright, yes. >> commissioner foley, yes. >> commissioner baldauf, yes. and vice president nageswaran. >> president matsuda. >> that item passes 7 to zero. >> congratulations and thank you for your work. >> we've move on for

>> we've move on for >> we've move on for a. >> >> >> 5. 2024-000929pta, 2 new montgomery street new montgomery street 2025, by a vote of +5 -0 (foley,nageswaran absent).(continued from regular hearing on may 1, 2024) through the chair are we limiting public comment for this item? [off mic.] >> three minutes again. >> okay. >> good afternoon commissioners jonathan department staff the item is a were to a major earliest to rehabilitate the signs from a currently non-functional to a simulated product i can go through the entire script it has been read before and what i'm say only updates the staff has for you since the prior hearing

from my finding the project sponsor met with some of the advocates i believe in attendance here to discuss the project. i believe that president peskin maybe at the meeting but speak to that matter. but from what i understand no chance in the proposal which remains to replace with simulated led and the staff finding for other prior hearings and we are now up to a small change sorry about that early may 2, '00 and 70 letters and in option to the project and in support of the neon and with the rehabilitation from many fellow downtown hotels the original updates but can read to the script or answer any questions. at this time or after. thank you. >> great.

>> project sponsor have a presentation? >> good afternoon commissioner my name is james tyler the director of engineering 2023 beautiful pole e residential hotel the pass palace hotel as a member of over thirty years of experiences with small high-rise i experienced the led and the signage and worked on both processes and understand what the costs comes from the maintenance scheduling and safety issues and design on top of the buildings and on the side finding buildings and currently facing one confident headquarters budget we have led all let all the chief engineers

go the biggest expense of led is the maintenance cost installed and been up there for a length of time and neon was on both signs currently 200 and 98 plus and the maintenance over 5 years is $502,000 i believe we submitted those numbers in the past. so led both signs three hundred and plus and maintenance over 5 years 200 and 5 thousand is significant savings and the maintenance costs includes i shared with you the estimated of skav for both projects that is how is high and the neon asking excuse me - we're be able to work with the neon folks and appreciate their input and addresses the two concerns we

heard for the may 28th the second meeting with the supervisors and reverse ability our contractor completed the survey of the signs with the neon housing and location from future restorations but the restoration on the attachment added up to it um, error worked with the manufacturer for the led tracks to make sure they can be removed without any disdaining and on the - or is decoration of lighting and other concern is the led is significant dimming on occurs by the 11 point with 50 thousand led hours that runs 24/7 and palace has the signage added to

the 5, 7 year plan or - to evaluate the dimming and errors the signage during that period and not have concerns the led signage and dimming significantly within that time with the led were installed. and right now is so expensive to maintain the neon the only opposite to find a temporary solution or leave the signs up to financially feasible to correct. for now we want to doing everything we can to maintain the lighting of palace hotel. thank you for your time. >> . thank you. >> great at this time take public comment on item number 5 if you like to speak to the commission please feel free to line up on is screen side of the room and good afternoon, commissioners. i'm mark here

speaking on behalf of teamsters joint council 78 among other things the many members we represent throughout the bayview with the hospitality and the teamster bargaining at the palace and he recommended other crafts and take the position to speak for working people in the hotel. it goes without saying the pandemic has quite an um, drag if you will on the hospitality destroy certainly everything in san francisco especially and now just beginning to recover and the are sproifk and we are in in charge and ask for approval of the the hotel needs to have everything in it's favor to look like this is open for business and i'll submit that is true for

the other hospitalities streams in san francisco as well and we ask for your consideration to prioritize um, that need on behalf of the working people men and women in the palace hotel need to have the work available to them and in a much larger way that currently is i thank you for your minutes. >> thank you. >> hello commissioners. i'm randall of san francisco neon i appreciate the opportunity to and meet with the palace hotel staff kevin and james and really i have to say great listeners and appreciate the president peskin fascinated those meetings

so i really of time listened to but the responses that james gave you didn't capture everything i heard in those meetings. and particle particularly the issue of resources ability and left side technology is now in that to the it is a technology commission this is a historic preservation commission so agriculture this is the right technology is not the issue whether or not we stay with the historic material versus a newer stellar in our perspective is not demonstrated yet in particularly the adhesive it hold the aluminum track that holds the led rope when that adhesive is stuck on the incredibly beautiful vintage

porcelain glient felony letters a valuable treasure not only to the city but to the palace hotel brand. when that is called a strong bonds made by t everyone that works in the trade show that stuff will destroy anything when you try to pull it off arrow said it is stronger but wait a minute charley you said it cracks earlier oh, yeah. a cracks easily do we know what the surface will do? the answer we i don't know whatever you decide one of the most important things to do today, i will want you to vote for neon and think i

should but causation if you vote to led many include a test you must include the test otherwise (bell ringing) we can be destroying those beautiful vintage letters that is valuable and we need those patterns of the neon from arrow sign needs to be in the contract and signing he will to if (bell ringing) with w if we lose the patterns we can't put noon back up thank you and vote for noon not for led we're san francisco neon not san francisco led. >> any other members of the public would like to make public

comment? >> seeing none, wanting on this item public comment is closed. >> commissioner foley i will have neon but part of local three 9 and when you're stationary working all the time not only something that is raining and cold and miserable i think at a point we have to recognize that operating san francisco right now is difficult. i have a bunch of businesses into making any money. and i think we have to look at the palace hotel they're trying to keep the signage up and come back in 5 years and like the bandstand let the people go in the bandstand and make reasonable accommodations and help the people i think we have let you remember of them put up the led and come back in 5 years and with the neon we

have people here. thank you. >> at the commissioner vergara. >> i'm undertaking in favor of the proposal in the sign were closer to the street level several times a week i'll go to the castro theatre to see if i can peer through the covering on the plats epa what it is finally complete a beautiful good morning this is on the roof of the 9 story building and grateful when the sheriff and company have an interest in the hotel they are glad it there and working as quickly as possible. >> thank you, commissioner wright. thank you. to the speakers for the background and for the perspective he totally understand. the only both sides

i understand a business operation and they have - hotel workers who are are um, effected but i also think that is our duty to um, think abouts long term preservation of this sign and um, and he dimming 2345rdz to a question i had a previous time it is technically calls depreciation if left side are depreciating in little league years but the sign is much older. and it is difficult to put neon book that ever happen?

the um, the documents if the planning staff says this is being considered because of it's height um, above the sidewalk level but it is not to be construed as any kind of buy off i'm par fraying but buy off for led replacement of neon as a lower level because the quality of the lighting and the longevity and little character of lighting to you agree that is higher but i don't think that um, i think there is a lot of question in terms of was that character that character will be in maintaining that character.

so i have questions in my mind as we go through this discussion. >> thank you, councilmember russ commissioner campbell i support the sign and love neon but that is a sign going to be lit or not going to be lit i think that is symbolic of revision in downtown san francisco. i believe that is great care to this project and there are fantastic examples of led alternatives to the neon that is shared with the commission i think that the height of sign works in our favor of being on the roof and precedence in the city first is the neon signs as ground level and appreciate the housing it kept intact and the solutions and seems the work is reversible if we want to go to neon in the

future and i'm in support of um, this proposal with the conditions made by the department and i will be open to hearing more about the patterns what that entails and that is feasible for the hotel. thank you very much. if someone can speak to that? >> commissioners department staff this is a very helpful but a bit of change from the last time i would suggest and certainly in the material as we speak to exactly how the patterns are addressed and how we do the kind of case study i would recommend as an idea an address condition the defendant staff review a sample studies for the small, small and seeing how it reacts with a for lack of

a better word but a case study what will happen we put that on and adhere it and roach three an added idea of a recommendation it is now new to me i'm not an expert by happy in the project manager or the neon people can to three that we had had work to make sure wearing not going to industry the enamel. >> thank you. >> commissioner baldauf. >> yeah. i have been struggling with um, this whole question because i do certainly sympathize with the businesses in san francisco. i guess i also am a great lover of the neon as an art form. and i think that if we were really looking at this as a short-term get the um, the

sign back for the economy i don't know we're using a full neon product and not lighting the front of the sign many ways to light signs don't are to do them the way, you know, in a full neon way light this if the front and could be red and could be red with dark neon if you wanted to keep that in place and then after the time passed and the hotel can afford to replace the neon replace the neon i think we're putting ourselves in a very dicey position with the stoirs and happen to light the sign of the obligation of the

hotel to light their sign but not excited about the approval a false neon. and so right now i would be requesting that they look at other options for lighting the sign not necessarily using a full neon would be my suggestion. >> thank you, councilmember russ >> have the project sponsor come up. >> seems we're just going on do illuminate that is easier we can revisit if we like the neon. >> good afternoon kevin manager so kind of the idea to

the neon is up at the top of the street you see the sign as it was 10 year ago and flood lit it as i think everybody has - that is when we started this project led and that's it and now saying coming back in 5 years and spoken with neon san francisco and we met with them twice and great meetings and educational

>> i'm in agreement with the staff suggesting the test is a good idea i'm in favor. thank you for your time. >> . thank you. >> thank you. vice president nageswaran. >> yeah. this is a tough one we're looking at preservation we're in a limited to the skoirs a guidelines to look at individual projects and individual um, situations so it is always case by case thing we look at this in some cases we use different materials that represent the same appearance.

um, and, you know, in looking at this sign and it is tough because neon is a um, a very unique class beyond just the department of technology to those craft people also need to be supported in a way that we don't lose that specialized um, workmanship that comes with that. um, and i'm the deliberating all the commissioners comments here and i think there, you know, we're trying to meet in the middle and understand the costs implications and what commissioner baldauf was offering is intricking the

initial costs it seems to me would be could be something that happens in the future without impacting the signs and - you know, the other thoughts i had were if we were to do neon the cost is much higher than for overall maintenance over time why wouldn't it be reducing the hours it was turned on and work with timing in that respect and other aspects of this maintenance? um, i'm still thinking about that so i'd like to to hear more. >> thank you. >> commissioner wright. >> thank you um, i'm also

intrigued by the idea that commissioner baldauf put forward as something that maybe worth considering to get the sign illuminated for the hotel it is completely reversible and totally assessable if have a huge up front costs i know we don't often go into the realm of the costs. um, because our purview, you know, you're purview is a procession by preserving the character and so the question i think the commissioner vice president nageswaran was mentioning when we're thinking about the secretary of state standards and the ability to use alternative or substitute material is a preserve brief other than that, on that and it is possible not

specific to neon. i would say but um, i think that is possible. um, and in perhaps the original character of the sign um, would be better maintained by alternate material and a projected up lighting of sorts, however, i have a hard time this in my own head that if a led project is moves forward now that any kind of reconsideration in 5 years will actually um, result in much reconsideration and i think that - it feels like it is easy to say well it is fine as it is and the the sign

is dimming over time and we're seeing depreciation it is gradual and not notice being an a day to day but over time if you look at the installation of a sign versus the, you know, as the some point in the future it compare that would be noticeable so i think that, you know, i would support the um, projected lighting and because it maintains the existing sign and it would maintain the neon tubes in place even and that would be a much better in my mind (laughter) at that point of discussion at least temporary um, consideration and if you're really, really serious about row

considering in 5 years. thank you. commissioner foley. >> i like about it commission we agree to disagree. >> commissioner wright sometimes, we agree and and go didn't and go on the bandstand i know i was intrigued by commissioner baldauf idea if you think about the hotel people thought about that a lot and the staff knows about that they beaten this thing up i think the led is great for 11.2 years or anything like that and more importantly do you think the palace hotel wants the led up there forever they have to make money to survive. so i think i'm totally in support of the current proposal which is one addition put this up and take it

off and it will be beautiful. thank you. >> thank you. commissioner baldauf. >> i guess what i don't understand what is on the floor is if there are a commitment to come back before the commission in 5 years and re-up the list the led or replace with - i mean what is the 5 years commitment here? i can't whether i'll be here in 5 years i'll say we've had prior instances most notable the ferris twleel for recertification for i think initially was one year and three and something like that but there is precedent to require the projects come back years after the fact. for consideration and so that has

certainly something can be included my final comment is i'll recommend another commission approvals that the mapping i - i don't like being on rooftops but make sure it is rehabbed it is done as correctly and happy to do that and that's the another presentation. thank you. >> commissioner campbell. >> actually may be the question maybe you might want to come back up my understanding there is precedent for led permanent replacement to neon can you to that? >> certainly has happened i'm not sure not that i'm aware of in article 10 or 11 district but occurred and have built examples about for the city and regionally and have seen those and again, it is all the specifics of this case about how the sign is locate and where it

is situated, etc. b with the previous works have seen of not in article 10 or 11 it is pretty successful product as commissioner wright highlighted we still done that is there when it comes to hear levels neon has a specific native and quality of life by the on this product predictions and for the convinced it is there when it comes to closer up that's our position. >> thank you. >> thank you, commissioner vergara. >> something like that was led sign replacement was that what it was. >> rebecca that project and it was replacing willed led bowls not neon but a large rooftop in

earlier 10. >> i was wondering if i can ask staff to be share earlier were two hundred and 70 people or individuals community members who are opposed to the change of neon to led? i mean, that's a lot of people. and you said were 20 people were in support of led that's to me says something can you further elaborate on that and trellis about the comments. >> i think those things have to be taken into consideration. >> there is a lot of correspondence and e-mails were pleasant and charming to reading people that love san francisco and that of them were locally and some where else where and

from around the country and internationally. not - again, i think i appreciate all of them read them i'm trying for broad i guess. they were calling for restoration and the department staff is for the if analyzing restoration that is we would and use is standards for restoration other than rehabilitation and analyzing this project and our analysis complies with the provisions of planning code and the secretary of state for rehabilitation that's what we're reacting to the flood lighting or restoration until that is put before us have to stick to the project. um, in front of us and can't act but can ask and have to make a final so - that's kind of i think the boast i can do. >> is that motion.

>> i'm going and make a motion. >> so sure and try to incapsulate and i think that staff does a great job and think they have been working with that and beat it to death my motion to approve korean and make sure there is solvent and staff worked with the project manager to come back in 5 years and review the project and deal with that. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> i second that. >> are there another commissioned like to make a counter motion? >> commissioner wright i'm sorry vice president nageswaran. >> oh, i was going to comment further. >> weigh like to go ahead

commissioner? >> um, so i was pulling up the secretary of state standards to reconsider um, so these are the standards for rehabilitation not restoration. and when and - i've been a historic preservation commission tech for 28 years we look at projects trying to look at them were there traerlts and replace them with something compatible where evidence of original materials the usual approach is to replace them in kind so even the rehabilitation standards talk about that. so -

distinctive features are works that characters the property should be preserved and historic features are recording rather than replaced and a very doe ration the new feature shall match the texture and were possible materials. the replacement of missing places by documenty physical and documenty physical and editorial evidence and a.d., you know, a new edition adjacent are related to the construction had been undertaken for the future and essential form and integrity and in it's environment with with so

i'm learning towards the idea of under restoration under our purview. you know, and also just reading the standards and understanding them and having done a multiplied of project and who the character is maintained and how it has changed and especially the construction part of it. i'm which some modes of depresents are lost and such a particular type of construction that i'm, you know, i'm hesitant

in having it restored in neon and i wanted to initial request that in the motion um. >> if there is a requirement to revisit um, or review in 5 years like more detail should be provided in terms of what that expectation would be and as we been continuing to talk i was looking at there is a presentation brief 25 and the historic signs the last time updated in 1991 way before led so not up to speed on brief 25 as a a applied or infers updates to current um, technology. um, but might be nothing worth

reviewing further at the park service level. >> commissioner foley. >> i was done with one of my partners and the worked on the st joseph church we couldn't have deny that in that moment in time we were working on the economies were tough. my concern is the palace hotel throws up their hands and leaves it dark we have to start letting people let businesses in san francisco businesses everywhere operator to survive and actually have to do that not about what he or she or they wanted but how to keep the people going. looking at the

legacy business one is 8 three years old and voting out her my motion stands i have a second we have a vote. >> again are there any commissioners would like to make an traeflt to the motion. >> we'll call the question on the motion to approve the projection and suicide a condition of approval um, material as well as the cul-de-sacks for staff and the project manager to come back in 5 years and commissioner baldauf, no. >> commissioner campbell, yes. commissioner wright, no. >> commissioner foley, yes. >> vice president nageswaran,

no. >> president matsuda, no. >> that motion fails three to four. >> i think the motion has failed. >> do we have an alternate motion? >> commissioner foley i [off mic.] >> i respect everyone on the commission and respect their knowledge and what they care about and respected people's votes. i'm dismayed tonight the hotel industry crushed people

are struggling in san francisco towards them and we're trying to put more costs on a hotel operator i think they're going do throw up their hands and leave it dark that is a bad solution. >> vice president nageswaran. >> so this project came bruce us to led or not to do led. so the motion was needed can't be an altercate motion with left side with conditions um, and so - want to make sure that um, people understand that. and, you know, there was a suggestion commissioner baldauf had made as

a alternative approach to make make that more financially feasible for them to have the sign lit at that point. um, and i think that is where we left it. >> yes. [off mic.] >> would you we consider other options. >> i do not know that the mic is working? >> didn't touch anything so 0 i'm back altercates to condition with the direction to reconsider a different option and um, like

i said if we not 4 votes to practice you have and no continuous it is disapproved by default we'll need to see revised plans for that alternative and to guarantee that is project manager is interested if pursuing that altercate and from a broad perspective vote "yes." we have to come back with an whole altercate but effectively a new project. >> thank you commissioner baldauf. >> i just want to say i appreciate commissioner foley admonition to be conscious of the real world impacts i addressed the palace hotel

directing and very aware and this is not an issue that um, i'm taking frifly to make our life miserable i do want to do that i would very much love he creative thinking on that. i think that i think that staff is not in the conversations and made be benefit for staff to actually be involved in conversations that you will have i one of the things it challenging that i think to put up an 11 year lifespan solution and say urging to revisit it in 5 years doesn't the think many commissioner wright said pass the sort sniff test why would i

buy and car and get rid of is in the goal is to celebrate the unique aesthetics impact of that time and it is sign worth celebrating and the neon was part in my america and to the republic for which it stands, one mind of that aesthetic impact if there was a way to wipe the sign until the economies will allow you to do the restoration will be reversible in two years and really condominium to that i don't know and cost seems not logical i don't know what to suggest magical creative thinking but that if you guys get together and you could come

up with something, you know, i'm supportive of being creative here so thank you for listening. thank you. commissioner foley. >> yeah. >> so i believe that the project sponsor um, actually met with the neon people and met with the board president peskin. why as much as 200 and 70 people love neon owe love neon. but that is not about neon it is do we trust the pat list operator to put up the sign to make economic sense but long term they want me own it. they're not - if there are in a boom they're doing really well in 5 years they want that neon just like

anyone they don't have the money right now is it brutal. >> so staff how long have they have been working on this? (clearing throat). >> i'm not certain this is the first time i've covered anything like this in my years. >> lounge. >> having how soon. >> 6 months. >> thank you three different motions. >> we really have to stop. we really do we actually have to move forward with the city we really do this is all bad. >> thank you vice president nageswaran. >> so um, knowing having works

on those projects for years there are off types projects and, of course, we are not the people to tell you how to fund it or the economic vail of that that's not what we're here for. and, you know, i think commissioner foley knows this berths any of us so i remember or respect that and grants for holistic materials and happy to suggest some of the other motion we can convene to allow for the conditions that were previously suggested the test. the glue on

alternative products and also to mandate that is neon be able to restated in the number of years 5 years or 10 years but i don't know what the ownership of the palace will want to suggest motion like that would be doing something that we don't know if they want. and the discussion, of course, is kind of awkward and complicated only because it is not an easy answer. because you are purview is the historic preservation commission and we don't deal with economies. and we understand them and if they will answer - in line with the economic part but it is difficult if that respect. and,

you know, everyone e even if any of us have a feeling of that hard to make that because it is slippery slope a preerp for those projects we try to follow the secretary of state standards and understand them and do what we can in situations where we can use other alternatives or regulations i'm not thinking of anything at the moment but i do feel like maybe a possibility on the side we don't know economic parts can be grants available for us for doing that work it is what it is. >> commissioner >> thank you. >> (clearing throat) . thank you. >> i also want to follow that by saying i appreciate the

expertise and thoughts of all the fellow commissioners here and certainly um, you all have probably said it more elegantly than i can but appreciate that and i appreciate that, you know, what vice president nageswaran was saying this is there are a lot of issues here and commissioner foley said not about neon and part it is about materiality and character so, you know, it is not an easy decision. i would like to also comment commissioner baldauf was speaking about initiative ideas and thoughts. something came to mind just a suggestion. for um, all involved to think about and

in anyone has been to the neon museum in las vegas an amazing place have restored a lot of the their signs on display and many, many are not and i can that is not really the same situation but they do also do some sort of a light projection on to the dark sign that they have not been able to restore. and it is kind of a magical thing i don't know the suggestions of just up lighting or flood lighting the existing sign is a limitation if somebody were to think about some oat creative ideas of, you know, it almost also looks like

a neon deck. so just a thought. >> thank you. >> um, wasn't sure which and yes two things wondering if it is more (unintelligible) to come back up and wondering along with vice president nageswaran more stricken detergents or detailed conditions allowed - the in the project sponsor likes to comment. >> can i ask a question to the project sponsor and we i have lots of three conventions in december and coming for several years and two other conventions

in the years this week and how many rooms do you think would that meant for our hotel do you have any idea. >> we're looking at right now this year the conventions not come back meant to come back in 2024, 60 percent down. >> in jobs including do banquet staff with one hundred and 25 staff now down to 4 hundred. >> you're job is so operate hotels; right? >> i one thing i keep on telling the owners in 2345ir japanese and one thing about the palace is the passion with the normal hotel no one will care we appreciate the passion with the

palace that means brings other things just checking poet in and out. >> so i i don't know the owner and have to think - >> in or 6 years or seven years. >> the family has owned there since 1973 or 74, i'll tell you i was floored they approved we had a capital plan every year and a 10-year plan and had this was left - we tried to pit in and got approved last year for this year and last year approved for last year and going for about two years. >> in the - in the current situation of covid i was the hotel 5 or 4 days a week during covid with two other employees

and never want to see that happen again and keep the hotel going by long term plan is keep the hotel and keep the palace and this was not just one - we have several projects and go outside the hotel doing a facade project that is multiple multiple millions of million dollars and before the christmas has approved and homeless people are drunk and throwing stuff they normally did that on saturday night but pg&e were off on sunday morning. so- >> if i make a motion it requires you to come back in 5 years will that be okay? >> we'll look at coming back tonight if you're asking me we

have other projects and don't have our expected revenues are way down from last year and we, you know - other projects are ongoing we have like swing stage to clean the windows that is coming in at 50 percent more than the costs posted. >> can i amend my motion? >> you have to make a new motion. >> anyone have any other questions. >> i appreciate your time and we on behalf of the hotel we appreciate- as we said before, we appreciate the feedback and appreciate what the city does and what you do one thing i'll tell you one of the big highlights of my life coming to america was didn't effect me i

remember when the same sex marriage was approved and the lighthouse changed our lives the rainbow colors that taught me about america and with modern lighting they did that and the passion and in the city i appreciated and we appreciate your work very much. >> commissioner vergara. >> i've been preying this bottom off and on but i'll be disappointed i can't avoid the feeling we have the perfect poem a sign i remember as a kid.

being driven around the city by my patients and hate it it would go away and the challenges of it all buildings obtaining securing the buildings that to me sounds like a much easier guess that's all i have to say. >> thank you vice president nageswaran. >> so, you know, in any career had managed projects and priorities and, you know, your explanation you're prioritizing good priorities i want to save that money and dots proposed lighting which can be different lighting and through the capital budget afford it in a way is

difficult - i don't know that the sign itself will phase the hotels. there has to be other measures not stand alone things we're facing i want to make sure that if there is an additional motion that the project sponsor will be comfortable with um, you know, if led was suggested for an interim period and then the team and - then they had the plan to make neon happen to say whether that is 5 years or seven years or 10 years that is they agreed that public school part of possession rather than saying come back to us and in 5 years and face it again, the the thing it is it preserve and trying to

roar it i heard it, you know - i've heard, you know - i'd like to hear from the projector sponsor they want to bring back felony i don't know i've heard that um, or if i remember what councilmember russ was saying do you want to come back? and would you be amenable to a period of time in which you can use neon and then revert to it i'm sorry use the led and revert back to neon? >> i don't want motions to be made without you're consultation and that's the feeling of any of the commissioners. >> let the project experience responders to that and

commissioner baldauf to make your comment. >> i think we from the beginning when we started this we were can he change the sign to led and learned one of the things we said the plan if 5 years the - you know, to the city will - seeing we're willing to look and need to go back to neon is there a big different of difference the sign will be up in 5 years time been hey we feed to replace with modern led or go back to neon the odds we have look forward in the long term is moving bigger signs that turn to the corner of montgomery we know in the project. and - but we would look that at the time tonight i can't give a commitment to ownership our

capital projects we cannot give a commitment and go neon and led and turn to led because that has to go to the financial aermsz with the lessons. >> my hesitation to make a motion in that direction we managed property. >> we has agreed to look at review the interpreters 5 years time get the led up and review it in 5 years time and whatever the commission says in 5 years at that stage, you know, one at least we'll have some of the answers constitute questions out there right now. you know, a does it glow or reflectiveness how good or bad. >> is 5 years enough time and

would be want to do it in 10 years? i'm suggesting that because of the dimming quality that um, commissioner wright mentioned so i'm not saying 5 years but think what would be a reasonable amount of time for that to be - you know, in the motion was made i think we are comfort level in my mind would be that it would be a temporary condition to do led and then revisit of would then have a different perspective on, inc., as you're saying as councilmember russ was saying how it is done and maybe 5 years is sufficient? i'd like to hear from other commissioners. >> can i come, you to real quick we talk about the capital

taeflsz to the finance committee board and um, it is not our job to determine out how the palace allocated. >> that's the reason- >> (multiple voices). >> i don't know to make a specific motion. >> i let commissioner baldauf. >> yes. commissioner baldauf. >> i'd like to make a motion to continue this item um, we have actually urging shaking i can't do that i make a motion our next meeting is in july. i think that there is plenty of time to have um, the palace if it they have another idea come down with other idea i want to be as supportive as i can of the hotel

and i think by giving for time we mightable to - provide a way to move forward. so i guess that is my suggestion. >> can i make a motion that um. >> i make a motion. >> my motion that the palace comes in seven years to revisit the neon and do the solvent test and they work with staff to execute the led plan and we trust staff we all trust staff. >> did you you have -

>> um, my only suggestion was on that condition is that one just if not replaced with neon would be removed. >> the led will be removed after that timeframe. >> so no lights. >> i second commissioner foleys motion. >> um, commissioners just to commissioner foley just to be clear. >> commissioner baldauf other comments? >> you're. okay. >> yes. just to be clear, commissioner baldauf you're continuing motion never received a second right now motion on the floor um, with three conditions to come back in seven years with

regards to - to discuss is neon at the time to conclude a condition regarding test and the third one for staff to work with the projector sponsor to make sure they have all the patterns and the documents (unintelligible). >> a normal housekeeping. >> and vice president nageswaran did you want to and i'll amend that to say neon be installed temporary until it is - comes back to the commission. >> led. >> i'm sorry led at the led would be temporary until the palace returns to the hpc and to the maker of the possession. >> to the 7 years. >> commissioner foley are you

in agreement. >> i'm totally in agreement. >> planner you'll thinks the understand the four conditions we discussed recently seven years at that time if - restored to neon or the led product is removed. >> all right. >> (multiple voices.) >> and i actually didn't put the left side. >> okay. okay. so the clarity that the led is considered temporary; is that correct? during that seven years. >> great. and want to come back earlier they are welcome to come back earlier. >> thank you very much. clarify that one more time the 7 year led coming off or not. >> we didn't make that motion we said the led is temporary and come back in 7 years. >> and come back- >> (multiple voices). >> the authorization for seven

years. >> the authorization for led is good for 7 years and at that time come back to the historic preservation commission and just to be clear, a temporary measure? >> right and i believe, i believe in the palace hotel and the ownership i believe though not neon to survive. >> we want clarification with you okay with that commissioner wright? >> yeah. yeah. i was trying to. >> (multiple voices.) >> the clarifying the back and forth and what i understand about the motion and commissioner baldauf did you have [off mic.] >> i don't think your mic is on and commissioner foley your eloquent i say something i've never heard the palace say they want neon. i think and i um, i'm going to take you at the their

word and expect that an, an idea and what i would like to suggest is that the palace has the palace garage has a glorious neon sign as i remember and this demonstration project we're creating of temporary measure that um, is allowing this sign to be relit for the seven years with neon - with led would be very nice the palace will actually gave me the visitors of san francisco in this exercise and explain that and explain the difference between is neon sign across the street and in this time of duress to make that sign

possible i think that your asserting a notable side of their gesture i'd like it no built expressed in the project. commissioner foley. >> i don't know. >> i give you a suggestion. >> that would be lovely. >> i would like in the palace he'll in their long corridor linking market street to the moving to to others alleyways that opens on the guardian court many delay cases and they could work with the friends of neon to celebrate their garage signs and celebrate these signs and celebrate this in a small the

delay that talked about the majesty and the complexity of our modern life. >> with the project sponsor can i ask a quick question? >> would that condition be acceptable? >> can i ask you to to speak into the microphone. >> most people don't want me to talk (laughter). >> too hearing ago i brought that up and created a landmark museum for the hotel and we poke to the neon san francisco folks we would be happy to put the history of neon signs as well as

the garden sign in there maintained on the promenade but the museum i'd like to know if it was vandalized roll call we're restoring but the proposal for seven years makes a lot of sense because at the stage we led will have been to probably either replaced at led or neon and we can do the financial capital planning makes a lot of sense and can't commit to saying i can guarantee what is but happy to look back and get back to the commission. >> thank you very much. i accept commissioner baldaufs. >> amendment >> amendment. >> and as do i. >> thank you very much. commissioner wright. >> i would like to ask if if -

the motion with consider a measure of the lou man's and is quality of life at the beginning of the installation and at the 7 year plan? >> for comparison. >> commissioner foley sure. >> commissioner campbell. >> okay. okay. great so dmishgz on the question to approve the project with the following conditions for basically being clear the authorization is temporary for seven years, and tends of the seven years would be required to come back to us, we will include a condition including testing and adhesives

and other condition to work with staff and um, on the patterns and the um, the neon patterns on the outside and additional condition on the interpreter exhibit and finally to test the lou man and light quality is that clear? >> great. commissioner baldauf, aye. >> commissioner campbell, yes. >> commissioner vergara, yes. >> commissioner wright, yes. and commissioner foley, yes. and vice president nageswaran, yes. >> president matsuda and item passed 7 to zero and next item for below grade stories. the scope also involves interior remodel, addition of an elevator, addition of windows and doors at the basement - request for certificate of appropriateness and good afternoon elizabeth

with the department staff presenting on behalf of the mission matter the project before you a request for the certificate of appropriateness to the 1027 hayes street and the existing property is a clean and three story building built if 19 hundred do proposed project is he is vacation for the side entry doors and retaining wall and the respect the foundation walls and a 5 new windows on the elevation east of the level and some additional rear scope in the packet and on april 3rd after hearing this certificate of appropriateness the hpc requests that the ar c talked about the visible scope that meeting was held on may 1st in

response to comments at arc it was modified to provide a setback from the door at the fabricated walls and the panels above the door laborer matching the existing color and texture and materiality not historic panels and determine to be non-historic and arc asked about the brick pattern foundation wall with the concrete wall clad a brick pattern. i believe in the packet were photos of textures as well as arc the sponsor the arc suggested the sponsor salvage the brick in the venture on the concrete wail and the project sponsor addressed that item in the presentation.

staff hospital no public comment in the appellate court and the departments recommends approval with conditions. these conditions are that prior to issuance of first instruction the projector sponsor should show the brick and stucco with the concrete foundation wall and prior to the issuance of building permit the sponsor shall confirm the drawing that concludes my presentation. and is projector sponsor is here. >> thank you. >> i don't have the presentation loaded but speak to the brick texture we have prepared is a applied venture as

opposed to stucco that is staged on the brick foundation. to show the brick is compatible with the existing brick conditions and have a packet of photos shows the existing brick and the challenges that might be associated with refusing it recommending deteriorates and the act, you know, demolishing it to replace it with a concrete foundation may renders kwiept quite a bit of that brick unusable we hope the venture option will be soapable for the brick foundation exposed and i

don't know if you guys have that presentation that was put into the that is /*. >> i believe it was in our packet with the sample of stamps. >> understood the nuts are rust texture you approved as a precedent in other projects as i think so it. so i don't know if the image you guys are looking at is acceptable or not. >> um, i believe our commission secretary staff has a

presentation. >> okay. great. >> project sponsor feel free. >> oh. next slide, please. the existing conditions not a 26 inch foundation has been painted probably multiple he means over the period of foundation and here shows the um, the propositions of existing brick and also some deterioration to base. condition - more - context just general deterioration and cracking so part of why we're really interested in replacing this foundation. so here's a thin brick venture and. next slide, please. is more and more zoomed in the shape and profile of that um,

brick venture one more slide. one more. there we go it's a 8 and 8 by 2 1/2 about and inside that is one inch thick similar to the existing brick shape. yeah. >> that's kind of was it looks like and the question for the commission is whether we would - the idea we would paint this venture to match the existing conditions but ask submit and sample of a unpainted venture venture the next slide is a

process of 24 installation and the next slide, please.. next slide, please. please. that's last slide and that's the last that's the way it is but the texture based on the precedent inc. not something you'll approve. >> thank you. >> okay. projector sponsor we'll take public comment on item number 6 or the certificate of appropriateness for st. louis any members of the public come

up to the podium and seeing none, commissioners. >> commissioners? >> vice president nageswaran. >> am i have a kind of want to hear what other commissioners have to say about that ventura you are we have we have the brick itself i understand that is fragile but using 2 as a whole brick rather than a vin newer i'd like to hear any comments on that and whether stamped concrete or plan

concrete is appropriate. i'd like to see image of the (coughing) the drawing on the screen if that is possible? (coughing) >> josie can you share your screen again? >> it would be in the drawing set of package. >> was a part of question and part of presentation i said? >> no, it's not part of the packet. >> so would be page a-3.2 (coughing). >> of the drawing sheet which they might have to scroll through and find

(coughing). >> you can put the drawings up on the overhead. >> there we go. >> (laughter.) >> perfect, thank you. very much. >> um, yeah. i wanted to see what other commissioners would like to comment on that. if we were to use a venture the pattern and the three points should match the original. um, and as far as paints um, i would

be okay with painting the brick and with the original brick but curious on the venture itself. thank you. commissioner wright. >> thank you i guess i don't have a preference personally whether or not it is painted or exposed. um, i would be fine with either one i think was originally unpainted but, you know, even though it is painted now and the main thing for me was that the - the respect material the have you known have you known our stamped stucco pattern or with the

reinstallation of a whole white brick whether or not it is new or reused um, salvaged material represents the correct texture and appearance of the because of the um, the house. and i didn't think that that a stucco would get there. i see um, i know the project sponsor was mentioning something about a photo of um, stamped brick i don't know what a i have in the package now or whether or not something has been prepared, you know, on site as a comparison to the existing but those one six 7 scott streets are examples the

department has approved before and those to be look to be um, kind of replicating a - what we see a lot of times in retaining walls and i can starched concrete that sustained and have seen that kind of replicated before. bum i don't think what we're seeing as 67 scott street example represents i'm a brick texture so nothing i have seen in the package that represents kind of the texture and scale of brick. um, so in my mind that is not compatible. i--i don't know in the department has other examples just for future reference. but as to the question and discussion i think that the venire is proposed does

a better job than i imagine in the 67 scott street replicating the texture, etc. of um, and the character of the because of building so i would support that i think. as opposed to to what i think the only stucco 156r78d stucco examples are what we're seeing on the screen now. >> any other comments into the commission? >> the projector sponsor have any comments. >> i'm showing the last slide didn't come through in the presentation. >> thank you. >> that's brick. >> that's a venture.

>> commissioner baldauf. >> yes. um, all right. >> um, i happy with the have you known either bricks liaison is corners are used for the a wire brick and i don't care if it is painted or not paid-up but conditions of approval in my mind. >> thank you, councilmember russ >> this is a crazy project you guys are done a lot of gymnastics to make this a function multi generation home i appreciate the work you've done in response to our comments with our hearing and i also don't have a strong opinion necessarily about the venture i

actually venire loose better but curious about it is just smooth stucco is an option over stamped stucco as an alternative; right? clearly different had an than the brick and i want to put that out there for the fellow commissioners to weigh in on the general support with the conditions is outlined by the department as well as is patient for the to paint and approve that as well. >> thank you, commissioner wright >> yeah. thank you. i think that um, the project sponsor has fwlashd up an example of what on the screen what the um, the mock of an stamped brick was at the site. so different we saw in the package but not convincing um,

to me in terms of a brick pattern and so i appreciate commissioner baldaufs question and comments and commissioner campbell comment i think that the - the photos that we saw on the screen appears to have a kind of wleefrndz and texture you know what that we need to have a conditions of approval but i mean had was presented so something a matching size and that the texture looks close. and i would i guess a question is would the plain the face of the vin either be with the same

face as brick? >> yeah we can detail it as such considering on 5 combraktsz eights of an inch not a challenge. >> i would i think that it would be important to have the face of this read in the same location as is face i agree with commissioner baldauf comment about the corner condition reflecting as corner. >> thank you. >> vice president nageswaran. >> so this is all very helpful i think we are all leaning towards the um, vin either brick i understand commissioner baldauf between wire cut and i think that is a good distinction because sometimes, people will do a wire cut and it looks like

a something stuck is out there and it looks temporary and people wonders why we are focused on, you know, the lower part of building foundation and sort of think that goes away this is what the eye goes and we want to make sure when we're doing a rehabilitation that that is respectfully the historic and eye should go to so historic and be thoughtful about the details on the facades that convoys of historic landmark building arrest landmark district. so, so here showing us on the screen the corner brick the vin either there is i appreciate that make

a motion with conditions. >> i think we have. >> oh, sorry. >> commissioner baldauf comment first and after that make your motion and i'll make that quick bus commissioner campbell asked about the stucco as an alternative i'll be willing to entertain in the condition a modern concrete foundation expressed as modern concrete foundation um, as an alternative to the brick vin you are i like the i don't think if you're going to be different - even such stucco to me wouldn't read as a conservatory solution i'm in the choice between you asked question just to be clear, i'm happy for the brick as the

historic solution. and i would be happy with a very concrete beautifully detailed i'm modern solution. >> so i just because you asked. thank you, vice president nageswaran. >> and just to respond to both commissioner baldauf and commissioner campbell on the idea of concrete thinking about that i feel that will draw your eye because it didn't look like the rest of facade. but i understand not creating false history is something that is interesting but i will make my motion and please feel free to amend. motion to approve with

the condition to use applied brick veneer as presented. owe match the existing. >> second. >> any additional discussion? >> okay. >> on the motion um, to approve with the conditions to use is applied brick veneer and match the same pattern cart

before the horse and paint and - thank you and use the sand cast and match the plain of the brick commissioner baldauf, aye. >> commissioner campbell, yes. >> commissioner vergara, yes. >> commissioner wright, yes. >> xhaufrdz, yes. >> president matsuda. >> passes 7 to zero >> passes 7 to zero and item and asphalt shingled roof,fenestration changes on side and rear elevations, infill at rear, and interior remodel. the subject property is an - (rustling of papers). >> good afternoon. >> my name is. >> hold on. >> staff presentation first. >> sorry about that. >> i'm hello again commissioners elizabeth gordon's with the department staff and

again, presenting on behalf of the - the project before you a request for certificate of appropriateness for 109 liberty street. >> the existing property is a front to two-story over-basement and the building constructed in 1969 the subject property a letter emigrating the approval in the packet. the proposed project is 0 one story garage with a roof-deck and respect the front stake beyond repair and accommodate the changes as well as in-kind replacement of concrete stairs and additional of two skylights and other changes. um, a certificate of

appropriateness was granted in 2007 by the former landmark preparation advisory committee e councilman cabrera with a scope of work to add a garage at the front it was not invested as required. and with the assessment of structural that was included in the packet and the department recommendations approval with conditions. specifically um, the conditions are prior to issuance of perspires construction document the project porn shall demonstrate it is compliant with article tone and also the sponsor sunshine shall condition to work the staff to sure comparability with the landmark district and the project sponsor is here for a presentation.

>> great. project sponsor. >> my apologies good afternoon my name is a amy and we're requesting approval for the renovation for the 5 unit at 109 liberty street and the property was due to delays in the previous owners and by the timeline we're seeking a new certificate of appropriateness. >> we worked alcohol with sf heritage and a letter of support and agreement in our packet and as was for the historic was and exterior strarlz and the report provided a detailed assessment of of historic and evaluates historic preservation commission will monitor the construction and repair of historic windows

and stair railings once the project begins. >> the proposed modification includes the garage including the garage addition were approved in 2007 and the project is similar to where was approved back then with certain modifications and replacement and repairs of additional was and interior changes for at attic they have been to be minimal and no impacts on the facade of the building we believe that complies with the secretary of state and respectfully ask the approval i have p jay and other for the architects and they'll go over some of the features of renovation and (captioning is ending at this point due to the time limit provided for captioning)

nageswaran. yeah, it is interesting, you know, i think, if, if we can bring up the picture of the, of the new facade, that would be very helpful, i don't know if. yeah if you still have that on the computer, if that could be turned back on. perfect. thank

you, one. oh, go back to the one that you just had. thank you. yeah, so compared to the elevated, appearance of the property with the wall, that's, the original wall and the way that it's sloped with the street, there is sort of something about that. and then the railing itself kind of distracts me. so and because, you know, the visual along the street is something that people perceive, i do want to minimize the appearance of what this is

along the street, my inclination is to think that the, the, the wall be maintained to the height that it is currently and be more solid, as well as sloped on the top and then the garage doors, not be panelized, but solid, or banding that doesn't have penalization and they'd be painted the same, because what you're doing here is calling attention to those garage doors and away from the historic building, and what you want to do is to make it comply stable and recede to and defer to the historic building. so those are my comments. thank you. thank you, commissioner wright. yeah. thank you, this is actually a couple of blocks from where where i reside. and i took a walk over there and, you know,

one of the questions, that i was going to ask and commissioner nageswaran touched on this a little is, you know, well, the slope of the retaining wall and kind of what how this reads from the street, existing versus how it reads from, you know, after the proposed, with the proposed project and, and so there there is a slope to, to that retaining wall. but i also question on, the, the height, the elevation of the top of the wall, relative to the sidewalk, because as, i was able to reach like my fingertips were like the top of the wall above sidewalk, both at, at the, the west corner and at the east corner. and i have a hard time imagining that a garage door could fit, could fit. so, so i, i don't know if

the heights of the, of, the existing have been verified, and if, you know how that relates to the proposed sizes and locations of the garage doors, that's one question. oh, yeah. please go ahead. we have survey plan, has all the numbers here. i forgot to measure my arm last night. so . it's probably about eight feet. wide walk is, says the bottom of the wall. 15. and while you're setting that up, i'll just make

i'll just continue to comment that this is one of the few. two, this is one of the few, street edifices on the block left, that do not have fenestration or garage doors introduced, so that's just really for the rest of the commissions, not college, you know, most other buildings on both sides of the streets, that have a similar condition, have had garage doors added. yes. i'll basically the both buildings on the left and right, they had this situation and now they have garage door added. so, and the value right is about seven feet. so you probably able to reach on the top. yeah. and if you're, if you're adding a patio, kind of above or behind this wall, and then a railing on top of that. i was also curious kind of how if you consider the thickness of, i'm sure you have the thickness of like the, the

patio floor slash garage ceiling, how does that all kind of fit in? and is it high enough for a garage? but without raising the height of the wall, it we have to raise it a little bit to fit the garage door for sure. but if the railings are problem, we can set it back a little bit, so it would, would, would not be visible from the sidewalk, i guess raising the height, of the concrete portion of the wall. i'm not i'm not addressing the railing right now , but. oh, yeah, the concrete, the garage door is going to go to the wood wall, but the side walls are going to be concrete because the front wall is not going to be retaining wall anymore. so we don't have to make that concrete, but we can make it look like concrete, like it was before. but, yeah, yeah, this is the picture for the. i also think this, package provided a lot of good photo

documentation to understand, very well. yeah. and as, i mean, i don't know if you notice, the wall is leaning a little bit toward the street and definitely needs to be replaced soon. if we don't do the garage door. but yeah, so, it's not a really good condition structurally, for sure, but, yeah, we try to just cut the garage door as much as we can and make it with the concrete, you know, to the size and just, on on top of the concrete, just, make it looks like, similar to what, what it is right now and then. but the garage door, as we can find, follow the suggestion. she already had, you know, make it like a get rid of those panels and, you know, make it more solid. so would the would the garage doors fit into the existing configuration? no i

mean, we have to. how much taller do you have to make the concrete, the concrete wall, which you're saying is now wood, but, this, this kind of rusticated, wall. how much taller would that have to be? i think the center portion of the wall. reflects kind of an original kind of rustication. and it looks like at the rounded corner, maybe it's, it's been, changed. and, yes, the center of it basically. well, we have a section, i think we have the section so that, to me, this thing i. i know, yeah. that's okay. let me try. to. if you download. oh, here it go. and then i can go to the section. oh

my god. hold on. yeah. section we have the elevation. this one we have we have the elevation here. so basically we do the sidewalk. yeah so the top of the wall is gonna raise about. 83 and we have the construction of 91. so i'm. i'm having a hard time hearing what you're saying. you could. i think you can adjust the mic over to the projector. yeah. so just make

sure you talk in the mic, please. all right, so the finished grade existing on top of the wall is one 2383. and the proposal, the finished grade on the deck is going to be one 2461. so about ten inches is going to raise. and the i guess the existing is taken at the high end of the wall or the low end of the wall at the east. the east section is right at the center. yeah so i, i'm going to suggest that, that there's enough questions here that and, and clarity that we need to gain that this might, be better to, to be finessed at the architectural review committee, motion to send to the architectural review committee, second, second.

commissioner. so it seems like your next architectural review committee would be july 17th. so, the motion was made by commissioner wright and seconded by by commissioner vergara. yes. okay. all right. and, mr. craig, i we already have there's something else on the agenda for that arc, right? yes. but we could likely take two items if we're able to make sure that so that usually two is the max that we usually have on that. okay. on the motion to continue this item to the architectural review committee on july 17th. commissioner baldauf, yes. commissioner. campbell. no. commissioner vergara. yes. commissioner. right. yes, commissioner. foley i. commissioner. nageswaran yes.

and commissioner. matsuda. yes. that motion passes 6 to 1. this item has been continued to the architectural review committee on july 17th, 20, 2024. is it possible to get some of the questions in advance so we could prepare? it's been it's kind of hard to get answers right away without, i think that sort of preparation, i mean, i'll try to be prepared, but it was some of the question. yeah, i guess the questions that i have are related to, kind of the changes of the site wall and like being very clear about what the changes are and including spot elevations. on both ends of the existing and how that relates to the proposed, how it, how new garage doors fit into that, how the, the patio slab works behind that in order to allow for a workable, the work the proposed posed to be workable. and then i

also was also having some questions that i didn't get into that maybe could be reviewed further, but technically, the report suggests that that, certain portions of the stair are recommended to be retained and restored and reused. and it sounds like the proposal right now is to, to fully replace everything at the stair. no, that's. no. so the architectural review committee is a is a time when, the members of that particular committee review and ask questions and go into detail . and then usually at that time we'll make some recommendations to the project, to see if that is, is something that you would want to review or, or suggest alternates. and so it's more of a discussion. and then after that, that process has been completed, it usually comes back

to our full commission and we will take the comments that the architectural review committee has provided and the suggestions and review it once again, because at this stage, i think there are too many questions for us to feel confident to make a motion understood, and i respect that completely. we did work very closely with the planner as well as as heritage, and just that this building has been vacant for some time now since the owners purchased it. and because we've had to work numerous times with s.f. heritage to spend. so now it looks like if we get but this is the first time it's coming before our commission. so we just want to make sure that we have clarity in our answers. understood okay, great. okay. moving to our next item, last item on our agenda, we are moving on to item number eight for a request for certificate of appropriateness for nine. 1948 sutter street.

good afternoon, commissioners michele taylor, department staff. the item before you is a request for certificate of appropriateness for the property at 1948 sutter street, which is located in the bush street cottage row historic district, locally designated under article ten, appendix k, the building is an italianate style, two story, over partial basement, single family residence that was built by the real estate associates in the 1870s. the wood frame building features a canted bay at the first and second story horizontal wood siding. formal entry porch with bracketed portico, arch windows, and a deep bracketed cornice, a concrete driveway fronts the property and terminates at a blank wall clad in horizontal siding beneath that bay window. it's worth noting that 1948

sutter street is located within the boundaries of the western addition a2 redevelopment area, which was managed by the redevelopment agency from 1964 to 2009. in 2005, the redevelopment agency approved a building permit. in 1948, sutter street, which included excavation of the front yard to accommodate insertion of a driveway, along with construction of the concrete stairs at the front, which provides access to the site and rear yard excavation to accommodate the driveway resulted in the creation of a blank wall beneath the existing bay window. the proposed project involves modest alterations at the front of the property, including inserm, including the insertion of a garage door in that blank wall beneath the first floor bay window, replacement of those non-historic concrete stairs at the side yard, and adding a wrought iron gate at the driveway. additional work not visible from the public right of

way includes excavation to accommodate additional living space at the basement level, a modest horizontal side addition, changes to window openings at the side and rear elevations, and modification to the rear facade. the insertion of the garage will also be reviewed by the planning commission for condition conditional use, authorization request required for a garage on a transit preferential street. staff finds that the proposal overall is appropriate for and consistent with, the purposes of article ten, and complies with the secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation, and that the proposal respects the character defining features of the subject. building new features are compatible and appropriate in style, materials and scale. previously altered features, including the location of the proposed garage and the side stairs, have not gained significance over time and will be altered in a manner that is

compatible with historic features. the proposed site addition is modest in size and will not be visible from the public right of way. therefore staff has determined that the proposed work as outlined in your case report is in conformance with the requirements outlined in article ten of the planning code and the secretary of the interior standards. the department has not received public comments regarding the proposed project, and based on our historic preservation analysis, staff recommends approval. this concludes my presentation. i'm available to answer any questions. i'll now turn it over to the project sponsor. thank you. hi there, karl savitz, that was a great presentation. i don't really have a lot to add. i think it's pretty clear in the in the material, what we're doing. so happy to answer any questions. thank you. thank you. at this time, the plant, the historic preservation commission

will take public comment on item number eight for the certificate of appropriateness for 1948 sutter street. if any members of the public, want to provide public comment, please step up to the podium. seeing none, commissioners. thank you. commissioners. commissioner warren, my question would be, whether again, the garage doors could be not panelized so that they don't look like they're trying to be fancy, and they kind of recede back so that they don't visually change the facade or focus of the facade, and then, i wondered if there's any examples of gates, on any of their facade in that neighborhood at the garage level , so those are my two questions, i would say regarding the first

question about the garage door, that that is our intention to not make it look fancy. and i think we worked with michelle, to do that. so, i think it has, like something like nine panels on it. yeah, i think it's. yeah, it's a ten foot wide garage door. so i think it's, you know, three foot right ish. it doesn't it doesn't need the little boxes on it, i think is what i'm saying because it makes it look like it's trying to be, be like fancier than it is. but maybe maybe you intended it to be a little bit fancy. well, no. yeah. we didn't kind of the opposite. we didn't, you know, we weren't intending to have you know, it does have panels, but we weren't intending to put any sort of, you know, you know, trim detail or any sort of right . it looks fancier. even so. right then it would look even fancier. but yeah, we would, you know, we're we're we're happy. if you wanted to put a condition

on there to, to modify the garage door in that way, we'd be happy with that. and as far as the, the gate goes, there are some examples, but but in working with michelle, we, we thought it was better to, you know, in, in order to not try to impersonate a historic detail. we didn't really want to match. i just want to know if there are gates at the garage, like driveway, in on other on other houses in that neighborhood are along that that particular block front there. i don't believe there are any. you know, immediately adjacent to it. i do believe there are some in the neighborhood, but i don't have any examples handy, unfortunately. okay. thank you. thanks commissioner baldauf. yeah, i'm just going to go to the gate question because i did go by the site and, i think this is a really a little bit of a tricky situation because this whole parking stall that was in

a sense, created off street was created under the auspices of the redevelopment agency. and the house next door and the garden that is the memorial garden to the east of it are actually part of a continuous slope that i wish there was some way that you could give some land scaping indication of that existing slope that exists across to the east on your property, because i'm sure it existed there before. before they carved it all away. and if there was some way, i feel like better than a metal gate solution would be a landscape solution, that would be my suggestion for how you might think about this. so again, i

i'm, i you're going to put the garage in and i think that's fine. i would agree with simplifying the door, but i think that the whole presentation of the house, the, the, the challenge is that the house to your east immediately is in a complete state of disrepair right now, but you have this beautiful garden that you could sort of ultimately hope that they follow and leverage off of, but you don't you're not seeing you're seeing the, the dilapidated house to the west of the, the japanese garden and, and the real joy of that block is that your part? and that's why you're historically here is you're part of this historic district. and i would double down on being part of your historic district. commissioner campbell, so i'm just looking at google street view here, and it looks like there are a few neighboring

houses that have wrought iron fencing integrated into their landscape, so it doesn't seem like a foreign solution to me in terms of a way to terminate the driveway. otherwise, i this seems to be a modest intervention, and i tend to lean towards, aligning with the staff's recommendation to approve. are there any other comments from the commission? commissioner. right yeah, i would just i would just, say that the, at least in the drawing form, the gate does seem to be kind of stark and draw attention to the, to the front of the property. so i, i think i would be in favor of, of a

different solution, but i don't, at this time have any other comments? no. gotta get this thing done, commissioner foley. you know, i did the whole internet google thing to commissioner campbell, and i saw the same. the same kind of conditions. i'm in align with you or you. are you making a motion? motion to adopt the recommendation. is that right? for the certificate of appropriateness, you're making the motion to. approve the c of a. i'm making a motion to approve the c of a. is there any

conditions, commissioner? maybe the condition that seems to be agreed upon by the sponsor, as well as the commission around the simplification of the paneling of the door of the garage doors? no embellishments as minimal embellishments. and did you want to make a an amendment to that? i would just say that, you know, it's difficult to make an amendment for the gate. the gate is not quite what i would have imagined would go in this neighborhood, and i don't know if there's a different way to approach this. commissioners, if you are concerned about the design of the gate, you could add a condition to direct staff on what your intent is and then have us work with the project

sponsor on a gate design. that better fits. but you have to provide some parameters for us. i mean, does it have to be five feet tall or does it say 5 or 6? it's six feet tall. does it have to be six feet tall? that would probably help. no taller than six feet and must be 75% transparent. it must be 75% transparent and no taller than six feet. may i ask a question, is it allowed to swing that amount over the public right of way? any swing into the public right of way would require, an encroachment permit with the public works if it were to swing inward to the driveway, it would not. and under the planning code, they are not allowed to park in the driveway. if there's a garage, if there's no garage, they can park in the driveway.

so right now, commissioners, there's a motion, but there's no seconder. all second okay. so motion made by commissioner foley i mean sorry. motion made by commissioner campbell, seconded by commissioner foley. currently, the only condition that's added onto the motion is a condition to simplify the garage door. commissioner warren, did you have another i just wanted to make a comment, i mean, i'm debating whether there should be a gate or not, and, you know, based on what commissioner baldauf had mentioned as well as, the appearance of it. so that's, that's it's hard to put, you know, we haven't come up with any conditions for that, and, i don't know, it's not quite there

for me. commissioner baldauf, did you have, no. okay. i'll how about if, i amend commissioner campbell's original motion to simplify the garage door staff works with on simplifying the garage door, and staff works with project sponsor on the gate. i think the gate is appropriate, but working with staff to maybe make the gate five foot tall versus six foot tall and keep the same transparency is that, commissioner campbell, would you accept that amendment, i think there's another comment by commissioner. right i was i was just going to say maybe even to simplify rather than providing a dimension, but to work to reduce the, the, the, height, the size and the, the, the visual impact

of the gate, less bulky, less bulky. yeah so maybe so. so yeah. so we'll so staff will work with project sponsor to make the gate slightly less bulky and more elegant. does that make sense? i agree, i accept that thank you. alteration amendment okay. the current motion on the floor is one a condition to simplify the garage door. two for department staff to work with the sponsor on the redesign of the gate to reduce its size and visual impact and make it less bulky. right. calling the question commissioner baldauf. yes, commissioner. campbell. yes, commissioner. vergara. yes. commissioner. wright. yes, commissioner. foley i. commissioner. nageswaran. yes. and commissioner matsuda. yes. great. that motion passes 7 to 0. and this concludes your hearing. we're adjourned. thank

you.