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to which john sauer had counter citations.l the politicalization of the prosecution of donald trump, do you feel they asked the requisite questions or that they were fairly satisfied that that's not a thorough legal argument. >> a little bit of both. could they have pressed a little bit more? yes, they could have pointed out, for example, that one of the arguments made by the special counsel in the case wasn't appointed properly is not one that the trump folks have shared or made themselves. so if they really think, for example, that former president biden is pulling the strings, why are they not contesting the appointment of jack smith or not saying something to that effect in their legal arguments. that having been said, i agree with andrew, that james pierce really had a nice response to that. the other thing is, you can't allow trump's threats to become the court's predictions of what the future looks like at large in a world that trump is no longer president in. in other words, the things he's saying he would do if he bec
to which john sauer had counter citations.l the politicalization of the prosecution of donald trump, do you feel they asked the requisite questions or that they were fairly satisfied that that's not a thorough legal argument. >> a little bit of both. could they have pressed a little bit more? yes, they could have pointed out, for example, that one of the arguments made by the special counsel in the case wasn't appointed properly is not one that the trump folks have shared or made...
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so, he nodded very strongly to that argument from john sauer. again, you know, the room was quite focused on the former president and even james pearce, the government attorney for the justice department who was making presentation, his parents were sitting a couple of rows back in the courtroom. apparently, they have come to some of the previous appellant court arguments, including one that pearce argued on the gag order a couple of months ago. so, everybody in the room waited of course until the judges walked out and the former president stood up and walked out slowly outside of the room. obviously, this is a very momentous court proceeding today and obviously the constitutional questions are looming very, very large and not only over this trial, but over future presidents, and so, certainly i think that he seemed to be very animated when pearce was talking about the idea that there would be floodgates and the one sound that you just played a minute ago when pearce said that he does not believe that there would a tit-for-tat, and again, the pr
so, he nodded very strongly to that argument from john sauer. again, you know, the room was quite focused on the former president and even james pearce, the government attorney for the justice department who was making presentation, his parents were sitting a couple of rows back in the courtroom. apparently, they have come to some of the previous appellant court arguments, including one that pearce argued on the gag order a couple of months ago. so, everybody in the room waited of course until...
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here is an exchange between judge and john sauer, trump attorney. he really shows how far they tested this. >> the president order to assassinate a political rival? that is an effectual act? >> you would have to be impeached and convicted before there prosecution. >> if you want, there would be no prosecution or criminal liability for that? >> our constitution and plain language of the impeachment judgment close all principles that with the founders were concerned about. >> i asked you a yes or no question. could a president who ordered to assassinate a political rival who was not impeached? can he be subject to criminal prosecution? >> if you were impeached and convicted first. >> your answer is no? >> my answer is qualified yes. >> that was judge pan . she really cornered john sauer to finally say that there is a possibility for a president to be prosecuted. >> if you are inside that proceeding and you watched it very closely with a good seat inside of the courtroom and you notice how trump was reacting to what was going on. share of it. >> he was
here is an exchange between judge and john sauer, trump attorney. he really shows how far they tested this. >> the president order to assassinate a political rival? that is an effectual act? >> you would have to be impeached and convicted before there prosecution. >> if you want, there would be no prosecution or criminal liability for that? >> our constitution and plain language of the impeachment judgment close all principles that with the founders were concerned about....
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and basically all john sauer said after mumbling a latin phrase, was, i didn't say that. that was another lawyer. >> that was judge pan. she read from the congressional record transcript of the trial with trump's lawyer in the trial saying, no former officeholder is immune from investigation and prosecution, which is a key point there. i want to listen to more of judge pan. this is where she is saying the whole argument, the entire trump argument, comes down to nothing but the impeachment clause. let's listen to this. >> it just seems to me that if once you concede that presidents can be prosecuted under some circumstances, your separation of powers argument falls away, and the issues before us are narrowed to, are you correct in your interpretation of the impeachment judgment clause? does the impeachment judgment clause actually say what you say it says? that's all that we really need to decide. >> andrew, that's the whole case. >> absolutely. she was just laser focused. and to your point about why the defense lawyer is basically like, i need to sit down, is there were n
and basically all john sauer said after mumbling a latin phrase, was, i didn't say that. that was another lawyer. >> that was judge pan. she read from the congressional record transcript of the trial with trump's lawyer in the trial saying, no former officeholder is immune from investigation and prosecution, which is a key point there. i want to listen to more of judge pan. this is where she is saying the whole argument, the entire trump argument, comes down to nothing but the impeachment...
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and so i believe it was judge pan who highlighted the inconsistency between that and what john sauer was arguing that only if he were impeached and convicted in the senate trial would doj be permitted to prosecute him for the crimes he committed in office and basically all john sauer said after mumbling or latin phrase, was i didn't say that. that was another lawyer. >> that was judge pan. she read from the congressional record transcript of the trial with trump's lawyer in the trial saying no former officeholders immune from investigation and prosecution, which is a key point there. i want to listen to more of judge pan. this is where she is saying the whole argument, the entire trump argument comes down to nothing but the impeachment clause. let's listen to this. >> it just seems to me that if once you concede that presidents can be prosecuted, under some circumstances, your separation of powers argument falls away, and the issues before us our narrative to, are you correct in your interpretation of the impeachment judgment clause? does the impeachment judgment clause actually say
and so i believe it was judge pan who highlighted the inconsistency between that and what john sauer was arguing that only if he were impeached and convicted in the senate trial would doj be permitted to prosecute him for the crimes he committed in office and basically all john sauer said after mumbling or latin phrase, was i didn't say that. that was another lawyer. >> that was judge pan. she read from the congressional record transcript of the trial with trump's lawyer in the trial...
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sauer, to try to test his argument, which is that the former president cannot be prosecuted because of the acts he was accused of doing while in office. and the crux of that argument turns on this idea that because the former president was impeached by the house and was acquitted by the senate, that means that there cannot be a prosecution of the former president for those very same actions. here's judge florence pan trying to stretch out this argument that the former president's legal team is making. listen. >> could a predorder seal team 6 to assassinate a political rival? that's an official act in order to seal team 6. >> he would have to be and would speedily be impeached and convicted. >> but if he weren't, there would be more criminal prosecution, no criminal liability for that? >> the opinion of our constitution and the plain language of the impeachment judgment clause, all three suppose what the founders were concerned about -- >> i asked you a yes or no question. could a president who ordered seal team 6 to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, could he be s
sauer, to try to test his argument, which is that the former president cannot be prosecuted because of the acts he was accused of doing while in office. and the crux of that argument turns on this idea that because the former president was impeached by the house and was acquitted by the senate, that means that there cannot be a prosecution of the former president for those very same actions. here's judge florence pan trying to stretch out this argument that the former president's legal team is...
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i just want to remind -- allow our audience to know more about john sauer. he's a lawyer based in st. louis. he once served as a solicitor general for that state. he joined trump's legal team recently and as mississippi's solicitor general, he took part in a last ditch effort to keep trump in power by adding himself on to a texas fight to try to get the supreme court to toss out the votes in several swing states. just so we understand him. i want to play for you one of the arguments here. because judge henderson, one of the three judges, asked whether or not the oath the president takes to insure the laws are faithfully executed applies to this president. >> i think it's paradoxical to say that his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed allows him to violate criminal laws. now, we're at the motion to dismiss stage. the government has charged the specific criminal laws. we have to assume they're true. >> my response to that i think would be to emphasis what they said in marbury. >> this gentleman also clerked for antonin scalia.
i just want to remind -- allow our audience to know more about john sauer. he's a lawyer based in st. louis. he once served as a solicitor general for that state. he joined trump's legal team recently and as mississippi's solicitor general, he took part in a last ditch effort to keep trump in power by adding himself on to a texas fight to try to get the supreme court to toss out the votes in several swing states. just so we understand him. i want to play for you one of the arguments here....
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. >> reporter: the republican front-runner watching on in court as his lawyer john sauer urged the three-judge panel to break new legal ground and find the former president immune from prosecution, emphasizing everything he's been charged for took place when he was still in the white house. >> we have the prosecution of the chief political opponent who is winning in every poll and is being prosecuted by the administration that he is seeking to replace. >> reporter: while the justice department argues nothing in the constitution supports shielding mr. trump from prosecution now >> never before has there been allegations that a sitting president has with private individuals and using the levers of power sought to fundamentally subvert the democratic republic and the electoral system it would be awfully scary if there weren't some sort of mechanism by which to reach that criminally. >> reporter: judge florence pan, a biden appointee, posing stark hypotheticals on what a future president could do if mr. trump's view prevailed. >> could a president order s.e.a.l. team six to assassinate a political
. >> reporter: the republican front-runner watching on in court as his lawyer john sauer urged the three-judge panel to break new legal ground and find the former president immune from prosecution, emphasizing everything he's been charged for took place when he was still in the white house. >> we have the prosecution of the chief political opponent who is winning in every poll and is being prosecuted by the administration that he is seeking to replace. >> reporter: while the...
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. >> on that front, i want to listen to what one of trump's attorneys, john sauer, argue today. >> could w. bush be prosecuted for obstruction of official president for allegedly giving false information to congress, to induce that nation to go to war under those prices? could president obama be charged with murder for allegedly approving drone strikes to top it so doesn't abroad? >> both of those examples are actions that were pretty clearly part of bush and a bomb's presidential duties. is that not a bit of average hearing here in this argument? >> i think that what he's doing there, to a certain degree, is countering jack smith's argument that there is no immunity at all for a former president. and so those types of things that he listed that should have immunity attached to them, if you accept checks myths argument, when the white house changes hands, that next administration could theoretically prosecute somebody for those things. >> wouldn't they only be able to prosecute them if they were actually illegal? i think that's the point i'm making. those actions that were described ther
. >> on that front, i want to listen to what one of trump's attorneys, john sauer, argue today. >> could w. bush be prosecuted for obstruction of official president for allegedly giving false information to congress, to induce that nation to go to war under those prices? could president obama be charged with murder for allegedly approving drone strikes to top it so doesn't abroad? >> both of those examples are actions that were pretty clearly part of bush and a bomb's...
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john sauer says yes, he is and made the case the donald trump was acting in his capacity as president are immune from legal consequences but impeachment and conviction process laid out in the constitution sets the stage for that. blanket immunity for presidents is dangerous if exploited. >> what world are we living in, i understood my friend on the other side to say the president orders seal team to assassinate a political rival and resigns before in impeachment, not a connell act, president resigns or is not impeached, not a crime. that is extraordinarily frightening future. >> reporter: donald trump is in the courtroom and so was jack smith. they gotta taste of the case to case showdown that happened in march if the doj guests it's way. trump today says this is all political and an effort to influence the 2024 election. >> it is very unfair when an opponent, political opponent, by biden's doj, is a sad thing that happened in this situation, when you talk about threat to democracy. that's your threat to democracy. >> reporter: the court will come out with its decision, could be days
john sauer says yes, he is and made the case the donald trump was acting in his capacity as president are immune from legal consequences but impeachment and conviction process laid out in the constitution sets the stage for that. blanket immunity for presidents is dangerous if exploited. >> what world are we living in, i understood my friend on the other side to say the president orders seal team to assassinate a political rival and resigns before in impeachment, not a connell act,...
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. >> we heard trump's attorney making the argument, john sauer, say at the end, in closing after his rebuttal, we want to make sure that if we don't prevail here, that this is heard meaning at all the appellate judges or the supreme court. >> the supreme court does not have to take it, and i'm -- i'm getting to believe that they won't take it. >> tell us why. >> it's not the right case to take for this important issue. it's too obvious here. they need a closer case, i think, to make important law like this. this one is so open and shut. i mean, these weren't even part offist his official duties. i don't think it's the right case for the supreme court to take and they might not do it. with respect to enbank if he that it's for delay. if he moves for enbank reconsideration, it's simply to run the clock. it's not going to change the outcome here >> judge, thank you. >> as always. >>> overnight the u.s. navy shot down 21 houthi missiles and drones launched from yemen in one of the largest houthi attacks in the red sea in months. >>> also defense secretary lloyd austin revealing he has be
. >> we heard trump's attorney making the argument, john sauer, say at the end, in closing after his rebuttal, we want to make sure that if we don't prevail here, that this is heard meaning at all the appellate judges or the supreme court. >> the supreme court does not have to take it, and i'm -- i'm getting to believe that they won't take it. >> tell us why. >> it's not the right case to take for this important issue. it's too obvious here. they need a closer case, i...
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is the question that was raised by john sauer or george w. the intelligence that is provided to congress. that be something that he could be prosecuted for obama and drone strikes raising that question. i mean, does what trump's attorney warned about here -- is that a real warning about this idea? if this ruling here, denying trump's claim for presidential minutes. does that open the door to other prosecutions like that? >> well, the way to think about it is that you might think the door has always been open. the presidents are asking us to shut. it that is to say, i don't think there was any sense prior to this filing at the president was immune to prosecution for his official acts. and that there would be a trial in a defense that it was legal. and therefore, he cannot be prosecuted for it. so, you can describe it as a pandora's box or as we didn't believe prior to this at the present will be prosecuted for that city took one office. lincoln fought a civil war, presumably there was damage done to various sorts. people were killed, obviously
is the question that was raised by john sauer or george w. the intelligence that is provided to congress. that be something that he could be prosecuted for obama and drone strikes raising that question. i mean, does what trump's attorney warned about here -- is that a real warning about this idea? if this ruling here, denying trump's claim for presidential minutes. does that open the door to other prosecutions like that? >> well, the way to think about it is that you might think the door...
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john sauer as trump looked on. >> can president order seal team six to assassinate a political rival as an official act? >> he would have to be impeached and convicted before -- >> there would be no criminal liability for that? >> [indiscernible] all clearly what the founders were concerned about -- >> it is a yes or no question. could a president order seal team six to assassinate a political rival when not impeached, would he be subject to criminal persecution? >> if you were impeached and convicted first. amy: following the hearing, trump warned of bedlam if the justice department's case against him damages his chances at re-election. trump also warned he'd go after biden if re-elected. pres. trump: he has to be careful because that can happen to him also. the next president, whoever that may become has a statute of limitations that goes back six years. that is a long time, joe. you have to be very careful. amy: ecuador's president daniel noboa on tuesday declared a state of internal armed conflict as drug trafficking violence continues to soar. the move prompted a wave of attacks
john sauer as trump looked on. >> can president order seal team six to assassinate a political rival as an official act? >> he would have to be impeached and convicted before -- >> there would be no criminal liability for that? >> [indiscernible] all clearly what the founders were concerned about -- >> it is a yes or no question. could a president order seal team six to assassinate a political rival when not impeached, would he be subject to criminal persecution?...
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sauer told a three judge panel of the d. c. circuit court of appeals today. and what's more, in a remarkable exchange with one of them, judge florence pan he conceded that the principle would apply even if a president ordered a hit on a political opponent. >> i asked you, yes or no, a yes or no question. could a president who ordered seal team six to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, could he be subject to criminal prosecution? >> if he were impeached and convicted first, hands down. >> so your answer is? >> yes. -- >> well that's the kind of thought experiment judges often pose to probe the limits of an argument before them. rarely do they get such a breathtaking answer. according to our elie honig, who we will hear from in a minute. the exchange prompted james pierce, the attorney representing special counsel jack smith to ask, quote, what kind of world are we living in? if that hypothetical holds true. for his part, the former president suggested that losing his case would create, quote, bedlam in the
sauer told a three judge panel of the d. c. circuit court of appeals today. and what's more, in a remarkable exchange with one of them, judge florence pan he conceded that the principle would apply even if a president ordered a hit on a political opponent. >> i asked you, yes or no, a yes or no question. could a president who ordered seal team six to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, could he be subject to criminal prosecution? >> if he were impeached and...
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. >> the republican front runner running or watching on as court as his lawyer john sauer in courage the judge to break new legal ground, emphasizing everything he did was took place while he was still in the white house. >> winning in every poems being prosecuted by the administration that you seem to. replace >> one justice department argues nothing in the constitution supports shielding mr. trump from prosecution now. >> never before has there been allegations that a sitting president has, with private individuals, and using the levers of power, sought to fundamentally subvert the democratic republic and the electoral system. it would be awfully scary if there weren't some sort of mechanism by which to reach that criminally. >> judge florence pan, a biden appointee, posing stark hypotheticals on what a future president could do if mr. trump's view prevailed. >> can the president order seal team six to assassinated political rival? >> the answer, in sauer's view, is rest, as long as the president wasn't indicted impeached first. -- a position doj cast as frightening. >> what kind o
. >> the republican front runner running or watching on as court as his lawyer john sauer in courage the judge to break new legal ground, emphasizing everything he did was took place while he was still in the white house. >> winning in every poems being prosecuted by the administration that you seem to. replace >> one justice department argues nothing in the constitution supports shielding mr. trump from prosecution now. >> never before has there been allegations that a...
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john sauer sthad a president could be prosecuted under certain circumstances, and not a k case of absolute immunity, but the condition for you at home, if that president were impeached and if that president were convicted, that would be a singular way for the president to be prosecute and that is a huge "if." >> and also, they argued that a sitting is president could order his political opponents to be killed or to be murdered and they could not be prosecuted for that unless they were impeached and convicted by the senate. i mean, elie, what did you make of the three-panel judge in a fascinating back and forth. >> we have that clip. >> and a real twist. donald trump's changed the brief, and the doj said that they have evolved, and donald trump's team made it harder than they needed to, and quote, what a different federal judge said that you climbed out on the limb than you need not have, and now you are in the process of sawing it out, and now an awkward difficult to reconcile that the only way they have argued that a president or former president could be criminally prosecuted is if he is
john sauer sthad a president could be prosecuted under certain circumstances, and not a k case of absolute immunity, but the condition for you at home, if that president were impeached and if that president were convicted, that would be a singular way for the president to be prosecute and that is a huge "if." >> and also, they argued that a sitting is president could order his political opponents to be killed or to be murdered and they could not be prosecuted for that unless...
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but the question that was raise bid john sauer, this idea of george w. bush and the i intelligence that was provided to congress before the iraq war, is that something he could be prosecuted for, obama and drone strikes, raising that question? does what trump's attorney warned about here, is that a real warning, this idea that if this ruling here denying trump's claim of presidential immunity, does that open the door to other prosecutions like that? >> well, the way to think about it, kate lan, is you might think the door's always been open and the president's lawyers are asking us to shut it, that is to say i don't think there was any sense prior to this filing that the president was immune from prosecution for his official acts and that there would be a trial and he would have a defense that my act was legal and therefore i can't be prosecuted for it. so you know, you can describe it as a pandora's box or you could describe it as we didn't believe prior to this that presidents ought to be prosecuted for the acts that they took while in office. you can
but the question that was raise bid john sauer, this idea of george w. bush and the i intelligence that was provided to congress before the iraq war, is that something he could be prosecuted for, obama and drone strikes, raising that question? does what trump's attorney warned about here, is that a real warning, this idea that if this ruling here denying trump's claim of presidential immunity, does that open the door to other prosecutions like that? >> well, the way to think about it,...
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trump's attorney, john sauer says trump does have immunity and that the behave in question by the specialounsel were official acts, not private conducts and president trump was acting in his capacity as president. he also said it's not that presidents are immune from any legal consequences or above the law bah that impeachment and conviction, the process laid out in the constitution, sets the stage for that if appropriate. the assistant special counsel countered the argument that blanket immunity for presidents saying it's dangerous if it's exploited. >> i mean what kind of world are we living in if, as i understood my friend on the other side to say here, a president orders his seal team to assassinate a political rival and resigns, for example, before an impeachment, not a criminal act. president sell as pardon, resigns, resigns or not impeached, not a crime. i think that is extraordinarily frightening future. >> reporter: president trump was in the courtroom today and so was special counsel jack smith. so the two got a taste of the face-to-face showdown that could happen first week in
trump's attorney, john sauer says trump does have immunity and that the behave in question by the specialounsel were official acts, not private conducts and president trump was acting in his capacity as president. he also said it's not that presidents are immune from any legal consequences or above the law bah that impeachment and conviction, the process laid out in the constitution, sets the stage for that if appropriate. the assistant special counsel countered the argument that blanket...
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his attorney, john sauer, argued for nearly 45 minutes the presidents in their official act have total immunity from criminal prosecution. if not they would face endless partisan prosecutions. the three judges hearing the issue, one a george h.w. bush pointy and the two others biden appointees expressed skepticism. >> it's paradoxical to say his constitutional duty that the laws be faithefully executed allows him to violate criminal laws. >> though judge henderson she also worried about opening the floodgates of prosecuting former presidents. special counsel jack smith east office argued there has never been a case from weather a president conspired with private individuals to stay in office after losing an election. james pierce argued for the special counsel's office saying that type of sweeping immunity would lead to a very frightening future. >> what kind of world are we living in if as i understood my friend on the other side to say here a president orders his seal team assassinate a political rival and resigns, for example, before an impeachment? not a criminal act. >> now the ju
his attorney, john sauer, argued for nearly 45 minutes the presidents in their official act have total immunity from criminal prosecution. if not they would face endless partisan prosecutions. the three judges hearing the issue, one a george h.w. bush pointy and the two others biden appointees expressed skepticism. >> it's paradoxical to say his constitutional duty that the laws be faithefully executed allows him to violate criminal laws. >> though judge henderson she also worried...
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today, trump lawyer john sauer the court that as president, driving new headlines shall shock anyone with a sense of shock left. a former president would have immunity for the assassination of rivals and that immunity covers having rivals assassinated in america according to trump's lawyer in court today. that is what he affirmed. this is not a drill. this is now asserted in court, a very public, very damming, very dangerous part of this former president's defense. in arguments that are designed to try to cancel, to prevent what is currently the planned federal trial of defendant trump for alleged criminal acts to overthrow an election which of course drew on violence on january 6th. you're going to hear it all. we're going to play it for you. if this sounds extreme or farfetched, first of all, it is as a legal claim. at the same time, and i want to be very clear as i speak to you, news viewers, people watching television, people watching this online wherever you find it now or later, i want to be very clear with you in plain english tonight, this license to murder is what trump's te
today, trump lawyer john sauer the court that as president, driving new headlines shall shock anyone with a sense of shock left. a former president would have immunity for the assassination of rivals and that immunity covers having rivals assassinated in america according to trump's lawyer in court today. that is what he affirmed. this is not a drill. this is now asserted in court, a very public, very damming, very dangerous part of this former president's defense. in arguments that are...
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we heard from his lawyer there, john sauer, who began and ended today's hearing. we also heard from the special counsel team in the middle. and those were questions directly from this appeals court to those two sides. i want to bring in our legal experts here with me, and it is chuck rosenberg and lisa rubin joining me to discuss what we just heard. i'll start with you, lisa, ladies first. >> oh, wow. >> what stands out? >> i think what stands out to me, ana, two things. one, there is an argument that was made by some friends of the court, what we call amici, an organization called american oversight that said the court didn't even have jurisdiction to hear this appeal. why? because in the ordinary course you are to go through an entire prosecution before you appeal it, the number of instances or types of situations in which you can bring amid case appeal should be limited to particular kinds of cases. and their argument was there is no appeal in the middle of the case unless there is an ambiguous right to that appeal. that argument was much more appealing to thes
we heard from his lawyer there, john sauer, who began and ended today's hearing. we also heard from the special counsel team in the middle. and those were questions directly from this appeals court to those two sides. i want to bring in our legal experts here with me, and it is chuck rosenberg and lisa rubin joining me to discuss what we just heard. i'll start with you, lisa, ladies first. >> oh, wow. >> what stands out? >> i think what stands out to me, ana, two things. one,...
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whatever johns d, i think it was the very same statute fraud against the united states, that is before us today. mr. sauer: the distinction in those cases ibeeen in the judicial case, jns -- legislative- 's between legislative acts and nonlegislative acts. the distinction in ex parte virginia is between judicial ac and nonjudicial acts. that phrase is used. here it's presidential acts and nonpresidential acts. and everything in the indictment is a presidential act. >> may i. there are aumber of precedents or cases in which the supreme court has reviewed actions by the president the case of youngstown, where the supreme court reviewed hair are you truman's seizure of the steel mills during the korn war. there's the case of little bahrain, where chief justice marshall reviewed thections of president adams when he seized certain vessels. trump vs hawaii was president trump's order restrictingnt of the united states of nationals from certain foreign unies. judge pan: how does that square with your position that the judiciary can never review executive action? mr. sauer: all those cases fal
whatever johns d, i think it was the very same statute fraud against the united states, that is before us today. mr. sauer: the distinction in those cases ibeeen in the judicial case, jns -- legislative- 's between legislative acts and nonlegislative acts. the distinction in ex parte virginia is between judicial ac and nonjudicial acts. that phrase is used. here it's presidential acts and nonpresidential acts. and everything in the indictment is a presidential act. >> may i. there are...