and sarah longwell, these were comments that were made behind closed doors.e've reported yesterday at this meeting where he said this is a horrible city here was let's, let's take a look at what the milwaukee mayor had to say back to him on local news. >> just yesterday, watch don't from was talking about things that he thinks are horrible all of us lived through his presidency. so my back at your buddy to insult the state. that's hosted finger convincing, i think is kinda kind of bizarre. actually it kind of unhinged in a way right back at you. >> well, we heard your previous guests, the congressmen say that of course, you know, this wasn't, this isn't true and we don't have it on tape, so i don't know, but it sounds like something donald trump would say. i don't know. i've heard him say a lot of these things. in fact, just going back to mitch mcconnell and the ritual humiliation he suffering donald trump calls him and old crow regularly. he's made racist smears against mitch mcconnell's wife. and so i don't know, it doesn't sound off base for donald trump t

ays t joining our conversation is the executive director for republican voters against trump, sarah longwell you are the first person i wanted to talk to once this news ended up on the front page with huge banner headlines. my question is who he hopes is this? who is still open to news? >> the persuadable voters or the swing voters in the 2024 election voters who sort of don't like either candidate very much. sometimes we call them the double haters. they are center-right voters, many are trump voters, but don't want to vote for trump again. just before i came on here i was listening to a focus group that we are convening of two- time trump voters who rate trump is doing a very bad job and view him unfavorably. those are the people who we are trying to persuade to not vote for trump in the 2024 election. we asked the impact of how they were thinking about voting for trump? five of the nine said it made them less likely to be willing to vote for trump. one said it made them more likely and 3 said that it made no difference. i haven't done enough focus groups to know how it will impact people

sarah longwell, i want to talk to you. snapped in 2020, just didn't feel -- it feels strategic. i wonder how you hear it. >> 100%. when i saw this, i said this is smart. this is joe biden saying, hey, look, maybe you voted for this guy in '16, maybe you voted for him in '20, but you have new information now. right? you have new information since then. you didn't know when you voted for him the second time that he was going to incite an insurrection. you didn't know he was going to deny the election results and try to overturn them. you didn't know he said he was going to be a dictator. you want to welcome people into saying, look, i have new information so i have permission to change my mind. i also just want to say one of the things joe biden is doing here that i'm so glad to see, i heard some murmurs from democrats that was sort of like, should joe biden call him a convict? should he go after him for these things? i was sitting there saying, if this was reversed, if this was republicans making this choice, they would go hammer and tong at their opponent who had been convicted

let's bring and cnn political director david chaldean, republican strategist sarah longwell here anduse in your policy adviser ashley allison. good morning to all of you laying this out this way really underscores to me just how much sarah, the republican party has changed since that time, since it was ronald reagan and now joe biden sounds almost exactly like him as a democrat in this moment. i think i've spent some time over the last 24, 36 hours watching these men who were there on d-day kind of reflecting on what a turning point moment this feels like for the country yeah, you know man, watching clips of ronald reagan, right? >> i was like a reagan baby. i was born in 1980 he had a tremendous impact me as i moved into sort of more conservative politics and he was an inspiration and watching him today and thinking about how little the republican party today looks like. the republican party that i was interested in becoming part of 20 years ago. >> it just, it's always a little bit of a gut punch still. >> and i then, then this upside down world where joe biden, he wants to reflect

. >> i want to bring in republican strategist, sarah longwell.he's the publisher of the bulwark host of the focus group podcast and executive director of the republican accountability project. in addition to all of those jobs, sarah, you have a lot of jobs you were also a never-trumper. so i have to ask were you on the phone with tim scott, anyone you know in the never trump world getting on the bandwagon for trump yeah, i don't know who he's talking to. i don't think there are a whole lot of never-trumper is i mean, it is in the name when we say never, we mean never because donald trump has been on fit from the beginning. >> but look i don't know who he's talking to you, but i will say for me, i do focus groups all the time and i did want on friday with two times trump voters, many of whom rate trump is doing a very bad job. this is a specific category of voter who's they voted for trump because they're republicans, but they do not like it. they do not want to vote for him again, in that group of nine voters, five of them said that this made the

. >> joining us now, sarah longwell, the publisher of the bulwark and like tonkin qizan, leading anti-trump republican sarah, it's wonderful to see you. i just want to start with your feelings about last night's debate. your reaction to what geoff duncan said right now and what our conversations among republicans who really don't want to see trump get re-elected about what happened last night. well, obviously i agree with geoff duncan. look, i'm in the business of defeating donald trump and last night made that harder. there's just no, no two ways about it. but obviously the other thing that i do, what i'm trying to understand and make sense of politics as i immediately do a focus group and so we did a focus group this morning with two time trump voters who are out on trump, people who did not want to vote for him again and some of them had been leading biden prior to last night's debate but after the debate, this morning, they told us that they just didn't think they could get there on biden and again, i will say though they were very clear about trump still one of the things you heard fro

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also joining us, tim havey and the executive director of republican voters against trump, sarah longwell. sarah, i start with you because your pain matches or maybe exceeds mine and what all these men and women have become, because i was never on board. i never thought trump was a good idea. it has divided circles of former friends, divided family and friends and neighbors. i mean, i have always thought it was a bet with the devil but i guess the point that is, so did they. so did ted cruz. so did marco rubio. so did mitch mcconnell, but they did something very different today. do you understand why? >> do i understand why they're doing it? i mean, no. i can't, because i'm like you, right? i both thought trump was unfit from the beginning, and took people like marco rubio and so many of the other candidates in 2016 -- ted cruz, doesn't matter, everybody was on our side back then. jd vance. they'll thought the exact same way we did. some of them called their selves never trumpers, like us and then we watch them for political expediency, for their own professional growth, not only do they

i'm a student of sarah longwell's efforts to create permission structures for republican voters who sawnnsylvania. how do you assess the politics in pennsylvania today? >> well, look, i can tell you, here in pennsylvania, we're actually focused on three letters. gsd. get stuff done. every single day. i'm the only governor in the entire country with a divided legislature. senate led by republicans, house led by democrats. yet we've been able to make historic investments in education, public safety. economic development. we've protected our freedoms and by the way, we've cut taxes three times. we're actually showing people that you can govern together. you can bring republicans and democrats together. here in pennsylvania, i think people appreciate the fact we put points on the board for them every day and focus on common sense things. what i think a lot of folks here are concerned about is the chaos that donald trump would bring back if he's given the keys to the white house again. think about it. donald trump has pledged to do away with obama care. that means 1.2 million pennsylvanians

sarah longwell.r and host of the focus group podcast. thank you so much for joining us. to tell us more about this campaign and what you're hearing from republican voters. >> question after the conviction, the political question is will voters care? and from our perspective you have to help make them care. the republicans are out there right now and they are building their own narrative. building their own echo chamber. they are all singing from the same song sheet that this was rigged, that we have a two tier justice system. we have to go on offense right now and make sure voters understand how unique, how historically unique in a desperately dark way it is to have a convicted felon running for president. so our program republican voters against trump, it hick hinges on a key theory which is you need credible messengers to speak to these vote percent. we have hundreds of people who voted for trump in the past, many voted for him twice who are explaining and there's testimonials all over our website

it was conducted by a group run by republican strategist sarah longwell.fter this verdict, they said about six of those voters said that the fact that these were felony -- were felonies that trump was convicted of carried more weight for them than if they had been misdemeanors. out of those nine voters, five of them said it made them less likely to support donald trump, including 52-year-old michelle from florida. >> i am tired of the lies and the nonsense. i believed the testimony. that is why i am happy that the jury found him guilty. i think now that he is a convicted felon, he is unfit. he cannot pass a basic security clearance at this point. i am not sure if you can vote in florida. -- if he can vote in florida. he may not be allowed to go to different countries as a felon. this is not appropriate. knock, republicans. find somebody else. amna: that voter had voted for republicans her entire life. voted for trump twice. but this verdict carried a lot of weight with her and a number of the other voters. some of them raised january 6 as something that ha

we talk a lot about sarah longwell who is running republican voters against trump, permission structures the spouses of two of the justices create around the kinds of things you are talking about. >> i'm very worried about it because the fact is that people who engage in election ■çto nihilism, they don't come to this naturally. they come to it because they are first told lies and they are sold that these lies are true. but then they have to look at the elites in their party and their movement for validation and certainly there is no bigger validator of the lies than donald trump. let's be clear. that responsibility begins and ends with him but they also look at the validation being given to them by others. what are republican senators and house members, but when it comes to legal matters, when it comes to whether you are breaking the law or not, there is no more prominent validator than the u.s. supreme court and we have seen the supreme court undermine its legitimacy in so manq ■ways. one of the ways unfortunately building up its legitimacy is on this very far right wing that wants to

longwell, publisher of the bulwark longtime republican strategists, a critic or the former president. what is your reaction to maggie's reporting that trump is apparently doing more of these policies sessions while biden is sticking to more traditional debate prep with your old boss, former white house chief of staff, ron klain i'm actually not surprised to hear this from maggie because i think donald trump recognizes that she said that the first debate in 2020, which was essentially a free for all where kind of his worst characteristics were on display. >> his most chaotic energy was on display. i think he knows and his team knew that wasn't good for him. and i think there's every reason to expect that a more disciplined version of donald trump may show up at this debate. mean think about it. the format is actually i would argue probably to trump's benefit no. audience, that mike's being cut off, it means he's not going to have the sort of rambling ram. the rambling rally, donald trump, that we get at his rallies and it will potentially be an opportunity for him to be a lot more dis

kate betting field, also sarah longwell, publisher of the bulwark longtime republican strategists are critical. the former president, what is your reaction to maggie's reporting that trump is apparently doing more of these policies sessions while biden sticking to more traditional debate prep with your old boss, former white house chief of staff, ron klain actually not surprised to hear this from maggie because i think donald trump recognizes that she said that the first debate in 2020, which was essentially a free for all where kind of his his worst characteristics were on display. >> his most chaotic energy was on display. i think he knows and his team knew that wasn't good for him. and i think there's every reason to expect that a more disciplined version, of donald trump makes you up at this debate. mean think about it. the format is actually, i would argue probably to trump's benefit no. audience, the mic it's being cut off. it means he's not going to have the sort of rambling rafah, the rambling rally. donald trump, that we get at as rally isn't it? >> it will potentially be an

. >> sarah longwell, who runs the voters against trump, it's an a-ha. largest voting coalition available to president biden is an anti-trump coalition. so politically to move all those people to biden voters in november activating them, reaching them, animating them with their anti-trump energies that exist, it's the largest the pool of voters available. with that in mind unless you disagree with the premise, but how do you make sure people know everything trump has done that trump now celebrates the insurrection, trump launched his campaign in waco. he's a convicted felon. in a sworn deposition, he restated his position when you're tams you can grab them in between the legs. all the most awful things about trump are things he has doubled down on the last four years. >> a couple things. we did hire adam kinzinger to run our efforts. . he's making sure that all the republicans who did not support trump in 2020 are number one with us. number two, the people who have been outspoken, the people who used to work for donald trump are also in our corner and us

sarah longwell said something so clarifying and liberating.ump belief system. >> joe biden needs to do two things. remind americans he has made the country better. there are elements of his record he can stand on. yes flaws. yes short comings. you know this better than i do nicole. elections are about contrast. when the debate comes along, i think joe biden as to go on to the stage. he has to not be lured into a shouting match with trump. he has to show what he showed in the 2020 primaries which is why he won the nomination over other qualified democrats running against him. he has to show he wants to unite us. i think there is a real hunger for that our politicians are not taking advantage of because they are so busy dividing us for short-term gain. >> that is interesting to go back to the democratic primary. i think he won and owes a lot of that to jim cliburn and his unique gift of rallying support in south carolina. what do you make of one party's leader is a perceived moderate, and the other is the most extreme version of a conservative r

but we talk about sarah longwell who is running this republican voters against trump effort about permissionand i wonder what sort of symbolically and by association the permission structure of the supreme court itself and the spouses of two of the justices create around the kinds of things you're talking about. >> yeah, i'm very worried about it. because the fact is that people who engage in election denialism, that are not -- they don't come to this naturally. they come to it because they are first told lies. and they are sold that these lies are true. but then they have to look at the elites in their party, in their movement and for validation. and certainly there is no bigger validators of the lies than donald trump. let's be clear. that responsibility sort of begins and ends with him. but they loose look at the validation gyp by other elites. what are republican party leaders do. what are republican senators and house members do. but when it comes to legal matters, whether you're breaking the law or not, there is no more, you know, prominent validator than the u.s. supreme court. and we

let's bring in the executive director of republican voters against trump, sarah longwell, he's also acus group podcast. sara, thank you so much for joining us. so tell us more about this campaign and what you're hearing from republican voters. >> well, the question after the conviction, the political question, is will voters care? and from our perspective, you have to help make them care, right? the republicans are out there right now, and they are building their own narrative, building their own echo chamber. they are all singing from the same song cheat, that this was rigged, that we have a two-tier justice system, but we have to go on offense right now and make sure that voters understand how unique, how historically unique in a desperately dark way it is to have a convicted felony running for president. and so our program republican voters against trump, it hinges on a key theory around permission structures, which is, you need credible messengers to speak to these swing voters. and so, we have hundreds of people who have voted for trump in the past, many of them have voted for hi

. >> are you calling the never trump republicans, the people who might create what sarah longwell callssaid she would support donald trump was still pulling in 18 to 30% of the republican vote in closed republican primaries. who's in charge of reaching out to the never trump republicans who might help bring those folks into the biden coalition? >> well, i won't give you all of our strategy, but i'll tell you, the day that nikki hailey got out of the race i was on tv making an appeal to haley voters that there's room over here. and that there's reason to vote for joe biden. and all of the things you mentioned before in terms of our standing in the world, democracy, freedoms, our reproductive rights, voting rights, all of those things are on the ballot. the affordable health -- i mean, affordable care act. all of those things. and so we're going to continue to make our case to persuade those persuadable voters, go after independents and shore up our coalition that elected joe biden the first time and that is making sure that minority voters know exactly what they got out of the three or f