we have one publishing member there called kim cat books and kim cat was started in 2019 by wayne lemonad a passion for reading and wanted to get books out into the world. and in a very short period of time, sue has naged to grow her business into a very successfindependent publishing . so she went from being very small and just starting out and not having a lot of information. she didn't have a background in publishing to our most award winning publisher as part of our awards program. so that's just one example of how when a member enters our ecosystem and they take advantage of the services in education, they can grow their business over time. andrea fleck-nisbet bit at the beginning of this interview, you said that you don't use the term self-publish. why not? we don't use that term because no one can publish aei book on their own, right? so an author can write a book and they can put it out into the market. but we like to say to our author publishers, if no one would pay you to do this active, you shouldn't do it yourself, by which you mean if no one's going to pay youo ver, then yo