this enemy stuffed confessed to everything. he not only betrayed the enemy of our motherland to you all understandably, but also dragged other teachers of the school into his counter-revolutionary terrorist organization in connection with this. is it closed indefinitely? are you all going home today? any questions? what will happen to us now?

boy natasha natasha you again only until the morning. all later.

this is that there is no next exam, monday, 8 entrance. where on the lubyanka good evening on the air is a big game, the current conflict in ukraine is part of a global big games of struggle for the future of the international order, and one of the parties in this struggle is the united states, for which the ukrainian conflict is an episode in their struggle to maintain

their global dominance. this is a proxy war against russia, relying on the maximum dragging out of the ukrainian conflict on its organization in the united states, they are trying to wear down russia, inflict as much military and economic damage as possible, and also weaken foreign policy, ideally inflict a geopolitical defeat on russia and already with much more vantage points to tackle china, which the united states sees as the main strategic adversary in the 21st century last week. we have already begun discussing us policy on the ukraine conflict with dmitri simes, director of the national interest center, leading the big game. you know perfectly well the situation in washington from the inside dmitry good evening. it is a great honor for me to continue our conversation with you, and last time dmitry we started discussing, uh, and we talked a little about the topic of russia's red lines which may be misinterpreted in washington. and

this is the picture that we are seeing with the evolution of the supply of american and western weapons in general, and ukraine is doing this topic. it seems to me very, very relevant, because we are seeing not only a quantitative, but also a qualitative increase in supplies. namely, that more and more heavy, more and more offensive and more and more striking weapons are being supplied, and in the latest package approved by president biden for 800 billion dollars, and this package includes deliveries of attack helicopters, and deliveries of ramming switch blade drones, and deliveries of transporters e, and so on, but moreover , information appeared that the united states and ukraine are discussing the supply of even more dangerous, and weapons of reaper drones, a, which can really be interpreted as shock, and armament, and so i

want to emphasize that back in early april, the russian ambassador to the united states, anatoly antonov , his interviewer said that such actions could put the united states and russia on the path of direct military confrontation dmitry in washington understands this. dmitry understands the whole question is where is this invisible line, after which russia will say. for us, this uh is not suitable and will not just say something very significant and specific about this and will do and uh, if you remember, and you probably remember this, uh, i heard from you, you discussed it on this program too and on other years ago, it was about the fact that the united states, uh, thought about whether it is possible to put

anti-tank missiles in the ukrainian army javelins and there was a point view that if you put this it will be a serious provocation against russia in that and when trump lost control of his administration. it was said that my advisers, who actually made such tactical decisions, didn’t trump, they were told that it’s okay. we will give javelins to ukrainians, but there will be very strict conditions for their use. they cannot be in the theater of operations, and they cannot be used without american permission. then somehow they didn’t end up in the theater of operations and it was it is said that not only do they not require american permission, but they do not even require permission. e of the ukrainian high command. that is, such decisions can be made by battalion commanders. and as you know,

they were used in ukraine and the ukrainians, their american cartridges believe that they were used quite effectively against russian tank columns, but they seem to be effective in urban battles, when those who use them, they hide somewhere in houses in yards in some square and so on. but when you go out to the bolshoi, a wide, open field, like in the donbass, then there are already javelins, if you want to use them, and for this you need to get close enough. then the javelins and their carriers can be destroyed tanks. and then gradually they began to speak. let's try on some more powerful weapon and began to widely use drones and

gradually began to give the ukrainians, and artillery of medium range joy. howitzers are already being brought in. and this is the last thing they began to say, and this is said by dmitry openly to me with embarrassment from pride. and we have already gone down this road of escalation escalation. this is my expression. it's not a washington expression that we've gone down this road to provide ukraine with more and more effective weapons and so far nothing has happened. and since nothing happened, then why stop when there is an objective need to stop the new planned russian offensive in the donbass. this is the logic you probably already know better. why

are you in moscow and were in moscow all this a time where the russian red line, i.e. the united states, uh, calling a spade a spade is testing russia, checking where its red line is and ambassador antonov's statement that this could lead to a direct military confrontation between russia and the united states is not enough. yes, that is, the united states is waiting for some kind of response from russia, but dmitri, does washington understand? they say that the situation. has changed. uh-huh this is objectively required on one sides. and russian previous tolerance. he says that the united states can afford it on the other hand. excuse me, i opened it, but er russian tolerance. i think it definitely is. and this is one of the most important features, uh,

of the russian soul, but it seems to me that in this case it is not worth going too far. and that's what i wanted to ask. here, the biden administration constantly says that it is unacceptable, but bringing things to a direct military clash, russia nato russia the united states is real. here is one of red lines, so the united states pulls back on poland when it says that it is necessary to deploy nato contingents, uh, in ukraine and so on, but does the united states understand that if weapons are supplied to ukraine, which, even theoretically, can threaten not only russian troops in donbass and others. uh territories in the war zone, but also russia, then russia will be forced to go to create a military threat to the united states or at least to uh their nato allies i.e. this kind of action the united states is waiting for

the manifestation of the red lines of russia here, and you wrote the situation very well dmitry and i agree from your writing and with your analysis. but now look at it from an american point of view, and the ukrainians have already launched some strikes on russian territory. and, of course, the answer was increased russian bombing. and how can one say that the russian retribution not only took place, but obviously it was visible. now, if this happened on nato territory, not to mention american territory. at therefore, i do not recommend this at all. i just want to make it obvious that the answer is on the territory of ukraine. but this is not what washington is most afraid of, but, as for ambassador antonov, whom i greatly respect about him today, an article in the politician's newspaper. and you need to post

an article without any raids and tell how they are very pleasant with him, the journalist, the politician drank tea and says absolutely nothing bad about him. but , uh, it is said that, in general, the ambassador, like many other russian diplomats, is not directly connected with the top russian leadership and the ambassador does not deny this in his interview, so when they say. and so, ambassador antonov, about whom i can’t only say nothing bad, i can say a lot of good things, and i personally know him, but in washington there is such a perception, but he has to say this, you will expect the ambassador to such things will react, yes, and that's why when the ambassador speaks, i don't mean to say that it ignores everything. but this does not sound like such a powerful argument to revise american plans and

priorities and i want to recall how american diplomacy, how it reacted to information about possible russian military actions against ukraine, whoever called anyone, but i’m not talking about the very, biden truth to putin, the united states secretary of defense called shoigu and, and blinkin called, of course, uh his colleague lavrov, and uh, assistant to the president for national security called even i know two russian advisers to president putin and the warning was both public and private . no, it still seemed to be american. uh, warnings that they were less effective

because they were public and created the impression that they were being done not only to impress russia, but to achieve some advantage in the information war. well, if you want to show that the united states is, as it were, the master of the situation, but i think it will take more than one warning, and the russian ambassador in the magazine is not evil for the american leadership to come, but to understand that we are talking about real russian red line. i think that there is no doubt that ambassador antonov in this case did not reflect his personal point of view. the conscious real position of russia, uh and uh, well, i don’t have the slightest doubt about this either, dmitry. we say that he is not the kind of person who is

absolutely engaged in amateur activities, how to make the right impression on the american leadership. well , here i agree with you. indeed, when vladimir putin said that if the west tries to somehow influence the a special operation that russia is conducting in ukraine, let alone intervene directly, the west may face consequences that it has never seen in its history. yes, this statement really produced the necessary resonance. and i just see and read. it is cited literally in every american article and scientific and academic and journalistic and so on. yes, maybe something similar is really needed for that. maybe even more dmitry e, not only words, but also some deeds, but so i'm afraid that if russia starts to do business. yes, although i personally am deeply convinced. that in order for the

united states to change its policy both towards ukraine and regarding the buildup of weapons in the eastern european countries of nato and regarding the possible deployment of military bases and weapons in sweden in finland, which may apply for nato membership this year, but it is necessary to create a military threat to the united states, that is, until the united states is confronted with military threats precisely by itself themselves, and they are unlikely to change. uh, uh, your politics. this is unfortunate, because it may actually lead to a loss of control over the confrontation at some stage. you are absolutely right here. uh, here's your expression is very accurate loss of control. the fronts and i know that they also dealt with this issue. and so i want to ask you a question dmitry but how to find the right balance? now, if you do too little with your words, they may not

count. well, if you do too much, then you provoke the worst. and here it is necessary understand too. here, in moscow, from your point of view, they understand this delicate balance and whether they are looking for formulas to make a strong impression on america, but not so strong that it is, as it were, what is called in america turned out to be a self-filling professional prediction that justifies itself. well , it seems to me that, firstly, in order to find this balance, dialogue is necessary, normal interaction is necessary, let it be confrontational between opponents, but dialogue between russia and the united states, which is today. there is, of course, russia is interested in being properly understood in the united states because yes, russia is also not interested in a third world war, but at the

same time, russia is of course implementing a policy of containment towards the united states and that quote vladimir putin, which i defeated you, but confirms russia's intention to further strengthen this deterrence. yes, and your question about balance, it's a very valid question. ah, but it seems to me that we will get an answer to this question only if we build a normal dialogue, but dmitry i would like to return, but to the topic of negotiations, which i think is really key to the settlement and, uh, just managing this confrontation, uh, which we are witnessing and participating in, and today , as i already said negotiations between russia and the united states. not at all. and the mechanism that exists is a mechanism before conflicting, all interruptions for negotiations on strategic stability on cybersecurity, but nonetheless. we see with you, even our conversation with you dmitry shows that even to clarify the red

lines, interaction between states is necessary, moreover, russian-american interaction is necessary to end even the ukrainian conflict in one form or another here without the united states, agree that the united states will have to at least recognize those agreements that can be and which moscow and kiev can achieve at least. the united states may, uh, have to recognize the new ukrainian borders, which is what we are talking about now. and perhaps the united states is also being discussed. as part of the package to lift part of the sanctions against russia, this also requires dialogue. are the biden administration ready, in your opinion, for this dialogue. but including already in the course of the military. conflict, because i'm not even emphasizing a post-war conflict, but to end the military conflict, dialogue and participation in the united states is necessary, you know, uh, dmitry that's who i was asked in washington, uh. uh,

about what they think and are going to do in moscow, i kept saying, i left 3 months ago. and this is another era. i left washington a week ago. and now i can tell you what i heard then. that's when i talked to some officials. i've talked to people in congress. i have a clear impression. a lot has happened this week as well. and this is the flushing of the red, uh, lines towards more permissiveness. this took place only after my departure. and to what extent should it be taken? seriously. i don't know, i think you have to take it seriously. yes, that's what mine is for instinct, and then i’ll tell you that from what i heard, the administration, of course, completely denies the russian explanation of why the

special operation began, how the special operation is going on, and who has advantages in this special operation now, the administration simultaneously says that she does not want this conflict to drag on endlessly, which the administration would rather start looking for, but some negotiated solutions, that the administration will insist that these negotiated solutions are acceptable to zelensky so that it is not for zelensky's back, but the administration will make it clear to ukraine that if ukraine is ready to negotiate and is willing to show flexibility, washington will not be disappointed and it was said that depending on the progress of these negotiations, of course. at some stage, there will be a question of lifting most of the sanctions, i emphasize. i am trying to be very careful with my weapons, not that they promise to lift sanctions, but the question will be seriously raised and

it is expected that this will also be done without zelensky’s protests that he will also agree to such a turn in american politics. and thank you very much dmitry, i also want to ask you about another aspect of american foreign policy, but very honestly connected with the ukrainian conflict. the fact is that in parallel with the pressure on russia, the united states continues and even increases pressure on china, and i have already said what exactly they consider china as the main strategic adversary. you dmitry belong to the realist external political school. and as a realist, you and your colleagues, but always argued that it was not in the interests of the united states and to create prerequisites for an even greater rapprochement between russia and china, but now we see this is exactly what the united states is delaying, at least creating the preconditions for prolonging the ukrainian conflict supplying increasingly heavy strike

weapons at the same time the united states is fomenting a conflict in taiwan how can you explain this? you know, i was recently at, uh, one meeting in washington, uh, where there were informal people like me and quite serious officials, and uh, how should i say one important bureaucratic lady. uh began to explain how much agents of putin in washington and even made it clear that there are such agents in the administration in the white house. even now, even now, uh, right here in her administration, i told her. that i absolutely agree with her that there is a strong faction of putin agents in the administration because no one other than putin's agents would suggest that the united states seek confrontations with china and

russia at the same time, which from a strategic point of view is complete madness. and they said to remind napoleon that at the same time to have a conflict with russia and with england this is crazy. it didn't stop him. hitler's generals repeatedly told him that you could not, without having finished with england, start a war with the soviet union, and now, unfortunately, the lessons of history they impress people. well, as a rule, experts or historians, but those who should make decisions are not always impressed. i even heard dmitry like that. seems like a crazy idea to me. what needs to be done by russia, the allies of the united states, for this it is necessary to inflict a crushing blow on russia in such a way that so that russia completely loses the ability

to fight and that it is well taught and then a weakened russia will be ready to support, the united states against china, there are even such crazy ideas, it seems to me, at least that the president is his national security adviser his secretary of state and especially his defense minister. still, they have enough understanding, strategy and cia director william byrne and cia director to the question of what, and not what they understand, what they are doing and under congressional pressure to do something to do more and more against russia then, of course, very often people have one thing in mind. and here's what they do. actively leads to contradictory and even opposite results dmitry you predicted the united states. a very unenviable fate, but also from the russian point of view. it is clear

that the united states cannot win in a simultaneous confrontation. e with russia and china, and they are just consolidating the very eurasian monolith united, the resources of which, as henry kisonger wrote, obviously exceed resources of the united states and even the collective west dmitry thank you very much. we definitely say. i didn't screw up anything. i said that the united states could enter this dangerous road, but did not begin to enter. of course, they didn't go that far for her. uh, uh, hitler or napoleon for sure, and my hope is that this will not be done, and we also hope that there is still enough strategic in the united states. thinking dmitry thank you very much, my will definitely continue a very interesting conversation with you in next times. thank you so much great game will be back in the studio in a few moments.

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