and we have on this account. and with us in the studio, dmitry simes, president of the center for national interest in washington and the co-host of our program, is a big game. e, dmitry but we have already talked many times about what, but in the west they do not quite clearly understand the russian red lines in ukraine that many in the west began to draw conclusions, at least to say that russia allegedly showed weakness er, lately, and that she's not as strong as she seemed a couple of months ago. what do you think after today vladimir putin’s statements will washington hear that, paraphrasing mark twain, the rumors about russian weakness are too much exaggerated and how , in your opinion, will washington in the biden administration react to this statement? dmitry the statement that putin made is very powerful and

very dramatic it is not so specific that it is clear to everyone what he means and what kind of counter-attacks from the west would be, uh, enough to cause such a sharp, and i i would say a very sharp reaction from russia and to unfortunately, we already have a tradition that when people talk in moscow, they don't really listen, because well, how can i tell you? we in the west know that we are right. here you are wrong. we are right by definition, by definition we know that we are telling the truth. and you are not telling the truth. why you? in general, especially listening with one very important

exception or rather two of you are pleasant to listen to when you speak pleasantly. and even then, of course, i would like to hear and even quote and emphasize that this is the result, but a wise policy and the power of the collective west and the second option, when something understandable and concrete happens and it would seem. in general, russia has already demonstrated several times. that putin's words are usually followed by action, but here, nevertheless, is it really to realize what it means and what consequences it can have? it seems to me that something is not working out very well, and since this is a statement that allows for different interpretations, different voices are heard both in washington and in europe, but there is something else within the administration itself. uh, biden is, it seems to me,

well, i would not say different points of view on how to deal with russia, but somewhat different and quite seriously different shades. let's hear what the united states secretary of defense just said in germany yesterday we want russia to be weakened to the point where it can no longer repeat what it did during the invasion of ukraine but this is a serious statement. at least, as far as i know, for the first time at such a high official level it is voiced that the task is not even easy defeat russia in ukraine but if you want to weaken it in the long run, but there is another point of view, or at least sounds like another point of view and this point of view is a bit much, but secretary of state

anthony blinkan. let's listen. to date , we have seen no sign that president putin is serious about meaningful negotiations. if this happens, and if the ukrainians accept, we will support them. uh, you know dmitrievich serious words to the extent that which in moscow these words will be believed, this opens up opportunities for dialogue, i emphasize not an agreement. yes , not harmony, definitely, but i must tell you of some kind of dialogue that, before leaving for moscow, i spoke with american officials to be sure that i correctly understand the official position, and in the light of recent events, i once again spoke with officials this time by phone, as we ourselves understand telephone conversations of this kind, but they are

quite general and, uh, we have to deal with many be considered, however. i asked a very simple question. whether the readiness for a dialogue with moscow remains, whether the readiness to negotiate with moscow remains, whether there is a concrete readiness to deal with president putin, whether this is still the position of the white house, i was told all these three questions. yes, again, it’s not for me to tell you that the devil is in the details, of course, and we live in an environment where no one is in anyone’s house. in moscow, no one trusts each other, but nonetheless. here i want to share that, at least least, despite all the loud statements. despite all this pumping up weapons to ukraine, at least, she continues to say something at a very high official level in washington, he is here with moscow, an agreement that meant the

lifting of sanctions, which is, at least theoretically, possible, dmitry a well, first of all, i'm very happy, if really. there are people in the biden administration who express and sincerely believe in this point of view and share it, but from the russian point of view, such statements diverge from the affairs of the united states and even with the words, those very senior representatives of the biden administration, who called them both lloyd austin and anthony blinskin, and tony blinkin declared in his dialogue senator rand paul, who, by the way, just stands for policy of diplomatic agreement, but he is in the vast minority. i would say is in american politics in the majority of one yes in the minority of even one yes rand gender is a very specific representative, and the political system of the united states, which adheres to isolationist views and

believes that, uh, the united states should, and weaken its global presence , focus primarily on itself, yes, but on promoting democracy and transforming the outside world and so on, but nevertheless, in conversation, and even in this quote that you cited, and blinkin said that he did not really believe in sincerity. u russian intentions is in america, you know, like in the soviet union in the time of brezhnev well, if you are talking about imperialism, then you should have said about its aggressive nature. today, if you want someone to perceive you as a respectable representative of the patriotic, well, not to say about russian aggression. simply impossible dmitry when you compare the current united states with the brezhnev soviet union, it seems to me that it is very much true. yes, and

not only by some external manifestations, but by the essence of the crisis of that system, but i will return, but to expression of skepticism, unfortunately. to date , a albeit with hope. yes, in relation to what you were told, but by the representatives of the administration. this was said publicly by the secretary of state. yes, but, at the same time, we see that the united states is not only increasing arms supplies to ukraine, but also institutionalizing, let’s say, its involvement, uh, in this ukrainian conflict, because if so far the coordination of these military supplies has occurred in the regime of somehow the main decision, just a meeting at the stein e airbase, which was held by the minister austin's defense was the creation of an already bureaucratic structure, the creation of a special coordinating council for the supply of weapons.

and to ukraine, which this council is integrated into the united states joint command in europe, yes, but there will be this council in stuttgart. bird, where is the american europe actually located? yes, the american command in europe that is, this is already institutionalization, and dmitry agree that such coordinating headquarters or councils are not created for a couple of weeks or months? ah, that is, it is a long-term reflection politicians. also, you again talked about red lines, ah, but we see that the united states continues to ignore the most obvious and at the same time the most fundamental red lines of russia. they are about the approach of nato and infrastructure. nato close. uh, directly to the russian borders, and even an open door policy towards ukraine, after all, before the start of this russian special operation. russia has

said many, many times that this is the red line for it. russia asked nato to stop expanding. and to finalize the promise that was given to ukraine and georgia in april 2008. at the nato summit that they will someday join the ranks of alliances , nothing and even after russia a has already demonstrated its readiness to fight for its red lines, to defend them by force of arms, even after russia a has already demonstrated its readiness to fight for its red lines, to defend them by force of arms, the united states still a continues to ignore these red lines. yes , the biden administration is just talking, and this, by the way, was said by tony blinkan in the same dialogue only in another part of it by senator paul. and that the open door policy towards ukraine should be maintained, that nato expansion is a blessing that russia used military force against ukraine only because ukraine is not a

member of nato, but if it were a member of nato, this would be impossible. and, accordingly, the nato expansion policy continues, that is, on the one hand, you are talking about the fact that the administration does not exclude and even shows readiness for some kind of agreement with russia on the other hand. they institutionalize their involvement in a military conflict and continue to ignore russian red lines. that is, it turns out they are ready to negotiate, only with russia on the terms of russian capitulation on the terms, just the weakening of russia fundamentally right, there is nothing more permanent than temporary bureaucratic structures. this is accurate and this must be treated, unfortunately, in this case, uh, quite. seriously, it's the first of the second. well, let's see, uh, no, from the point of view of moscow, but from the point of view of their who and the american allies in in europe, 40 countries are going to

discuss military coordination against russia at a very high political level. you have seen this in europe at least after the second world war. you did n't see it before world war ii, there were fewer countries in europe. so you didn't see it either . there is truth. e, of course, e hitler managed to unite europe on a very specific basis , and with the exception of england, this is the guy of the neutral countries of europe in the story. well, in general, under all conditions. uh, here's the first existence modern relative to the modern world, and after the second world war. this is an exceptionally successful mobilization of the entire collective west against one country against russia. they themselves did not expect that they would be able to organize and

unite in this way and naturally cause them great satisfaction, secondly, with regard to the situation on the battlefield in ukraine, kiev, russia decided not to talk, that from the very beginning she was not going to take it, but nevertheless, one way or another, russian troops were withdrawn from kiev, the task of a military operation today they are, but narrower. well, then listen, ukrainians, impressive fight. we now know why they fight spectacularly. i don't want to refuse some ukrainian soldiers. in personal courage. the main thing is different. of course, we have now found out that already after the fourteenth year, eight years, this army was trained and trained by nato instructors much more than who else? it was imagined, but even now look at the scale of military supplies to ukraine and of course, this is

usually not the most modern weapon. and of course, some of these weapons, which are more modern ukrainians. they still don’t know how to use it, but i think, no one doubts that the balance of power in ukraine would be greater without this massive infusion of weapons and ammunition that is taking place today, and this inevitably creates, but you know, appetites come with food. this inevitably creates a desire, and in washington and more widely in the collective west, to take advantage of this situation to give russia a bloody lesson. and indeed, as e said generolostin to discourage russia from the desire and even the ability to go on this kind of special operations of the future. and now i have a

question for you. after all, the people who plan it are in the west. you have many of these personally about others you know, they were followed by their career- minded intelligent people informed people, really. this is what they are counting on, that putin will be afraid that russia will hide under the table, or they are counting on russia not to surrender, but it will slowly bleed. and how would it be possible, maybe even cause a regime change in russia, as they say, it is quite possible to do this, say your radical oppositionists, who mostly fled from russia, or is there some other option. and what, from your point of view, they don’t know that russia is still carrying out this operation with one hand behind its back

voluntarily placed behind its back. and right right. and what, when russia says a special operation? this is not a play on words, of course, this is not how the war is presented in russia. and this is not how the americans fought in iraq, but how they fought against yugoslavia, you know about how they would bombard and destroy iraq and then baghdad , uh, before that, of course, belgrade in yugoslavia, and you know how it started by destroying the decision-making center or hitting those palaces where we could to be the presidents of these countries russia has not done anything yet. here’s how you think they don’t imagine that russia has the possibility of expanding the operation, or have you convinced yourself that russia will not agree to this, that russia will not dare

dmitry, firstly, i can’t help but comment what you said at the beginning of your question, yes , there was an unprecedented consolidation of the collective west, but firstly at the cost, but the standard of living of europeans and americans. secondly, how long-term strategic sustainable this consolidation is is also a big question. because, most likely in the twenty-fifth year in january, the next president of the united states will be an american. uh, republican, uh. a lot will change then, and of course, because he is a populist and he himself is an atlanticist for sure absolutely yes e can maybe it'll be donald trump, maybe it'll be him desantis, maybe it'll be someone else. but in any case, here is such a mutual admiration at the level of rhetoric that exists between the united states today. yes, there will be no western european countries, and the united states will

strategically reorient itself to the techno-ocean region anyway, and perceive europe as an important, but peripheral direction, therefore trade economic issues have not been resolved and will not be resolved. for the foreseeable future, therefore, i i would not say that this is the current consolidation. she's for decades. yes, i would not even begin to say that she absolutely did not mean the year, i tried to describe how people imagine it, yes, and why and why it seems to me, they have such a feeling of the real possibilities of those plans that, in russia, it seems to me doesn't take it seriously. explain yes dmitry so you are right, the united states is making a fundamental mistake. ah, when they think that a russian special operation is the maximum that russia can do, uh, what russia can do produce in ukraine and and i do not rule out two

things? firstly, i do not rule out that russia , if such a need arises, will turn this special operation into a real war, and you conducted absolutely correct examples of what a real war is, and can be, and secondly, russia can cause very serious reputational and political damage to the collective west by winning a decisive military victory in this war, but because bloomberg has already stated, for example, that even the united the states are depleting their resources in the field of armaments of military equipment, substituting them for ukraine, and russia is already grinding up to a quarter of the american stingers delivered to ukraine. that is , it turns out that the west cannot even military even the combined resources of the collective west cannot inflict. russia is defeated, but russia is winning. this is a very serious reputational damage, and thirdly, and here is the importance of, uh, the visit of blinkin

austin to kiev a and the further holding of the event in ramstein. thing is the united states has indeed changed its rhetoric. and more clearly formulated strategic goals. that is, we are really dealing with a hybrid war, the united states is already openly saying that the conflict in ukraine is not about ukraine, that it is about their leadership, it is on the international order about the place and role of both russia and the united states in this world order. and somehow they believe that if they are a party to this hybrid war, they will remain completely safe. this is a very big illusion, because in this war two are involved, and russia also has a lot of resources, not necessarily those that vladimir putin spoke today, but including those with which russia can inflict on the united states. very serious damage. thank you

dmitry for our today's conversation. oh to the remark. uh, both countries have room for further escalation. and uh, italy is another country eligible. to think that their opportunities are greater, but it seems to me that if you objectively look at the risks for the collective west, for in this situation there is nothing national for the collective west, e is not involved here, and therefore, it seems to me, e that what he was talking about says the possibility of some kind of compromise agreement, which he spoke about, just on sergey lavrov's first channel. it seems to me that this is an opportunity. it should be checked as much as possible. i don't want to say that it is a guaranteed opportunity. eh, but trying very , very worth it here dmitry, i agree with you. moreover

, and it seems to me that the whole story. international relations shows that the more pressure is put on russia, the more russia consolidates, the stronger it becomes, the greater the internal support, and the foreign policy course that russia is pursuing . thank you very much for a very interesting conversation. we will definitely continue next time, and the big game will be back in the studio in uh, in a few moments. on victory day on the first no, in russia there is such a family, wherever their hero is not remembered and the eyes of young soldiers with a photograph of those who have died look at

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draws a picture that we have such a monolith in terms of anti-russian policy and more than ever in history, and the collective smell has united into opposition to russia, but in fact, if we look in detail, we will see that according to the key instruments of the anti-russian policy of the west, these are sanctions and arms supplies to ukraine, and there are serious splits, both interstate and within the state. well , for example, while the european union continues to discuss, uh, the sixth package, the so-called anti-russian sanctions, and we see that some countries of the european union are against the oil empark in relation to russia, some are for and even there are also serious differences inside government coalitions the same for the supply of arms. some countries of the european union, like the united states , are in favor of the supply of ever heavier and more strategic weapons,

while others are against ukraine. yes, and the same splits exist within government coalitions. and so, for example, in germany, chancellor scholz and the social democratic party, at the very last moment, opposed the supply of german heavy weapons to ukraine, while the greens, and with the minister of foreign affairs. anna lena berg and uh, liberal democrats with christian lindr, but they supported yes, but in the end, scholz was broken by bulgaria, uh, the same example, and today, uh, the prime minister of bulgaria went to kiev to discuss just the supply of weapons to ukraine and the president of bulgaria spoke out categorically against these deliveries and did. it seems to me a very important statement, listen . categorical no military assistance to ukraine. unfortunately, we see that calls for peace.

to end the conflict as soon as possible are fading away, and they are replaced by militant rhetoric calls for victory, but it is necessary to understand what the word victory means, if it means self-destruction and the economic liquidation of europe, then i do not think that our side should move in this direction, but it seems to me that the president bulgaria is absolutely right, and we said it in this studio, that europe is being used as second cannon fodder. uh, the united states in the fight, uh, against russia. i want to ask oleg nikolaevich barabanov a. firstly, is it fair to believe that each next step a to increase pressure on russia , sanctions on the supply of weapons to ukraine will lead to a more serious deep split, and in the european union and secondly, how likely is it that this is the point of view that expressed the president bo?