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is a very bad person. maybe but it won't harm that one. who did yaroslav tell him to take care of? i won't go with him. be ready to hit the road at dawn. good evening on the air is a big game. first of all, i would like to join those words of condolence to the family and friends of mikhail sergeyevich gorbachev, which he expressed today in the corresponding telegram. vladimir putin and in the second part of our program. we will discuss the role of this historical figure in the history of russia and the world. for now, on to other topics. today, russia again pushed back the ukrainian troops

who tried to advance in the south and two days of these attempts. the kiev regime has already lost over 1,700 servicemen and a huge amount of military equipment. at the same time, as cnn reported today, citing a representative of the white house, the united states was directly involved in the preparation of these offensive attempts, and those arms supplies that america transferred to ukraine in recent months were largely intended for this counteroffensive. meanwhile today mission. mgt has already reached zaporozhye and tomorrow she is to start inspecting the nuclear power plant. the closer the start of these inspections, the more the official position of the united states regarding the ukrainian shelling of the zaporozhye nuclear power plant is changing yesterday , deputy state department spokesman whedon patel said yes. in a number of cases, as he put it, shelling was carried out by the ukrainian armed forces. but this according to him, there was allegedly return fire, let me remind you earlier, the united

the states have always said they can't confirm at all. who is leading these attacks? well, now we will discuss the issue of the zaporozhye and the nuclear power plant and the involvement of the united states in the conflict in ukraine as a whole with the president of the center for national interests dmitry simes and the director of the center for strategies and strategy and technology analysis ruslan pukhov, dmitry ruslan nikolaevich good evening. dmitry well, let's start with you, how washington assesses the prospects for the mgt e- mission, which will start work tomorrow at zaporozhye nuclear power plant. and will they support the initiative expressed by rafael gross and the iaea director and which moscow fully supports, that the presence of the iaea at this station should be of a permanent nature, well , honestly, this topic is not very interesting to me, not because it is not the main theme of the day. this is the

agenda that we are discussing, and you are absolutely right. raising this question. but honestly, i'll tell you, after what happened, the features of the international and after, in general, everything international organizations, and found out what happens to them if they give the slightest objective, uh, report, and considering that, in general, the inspectors who arrived, they are not specialists in artillery shelling. they can determine the danger to the station, but telling someone this responsibility will be more difficult. i hope i am wrong. but i'm afraid that this will be the case, so for me, for me, of course, it's interesting whether it allows me to remain an inspector there. if this is allowed, hopefully, and if these inspectors will behave little bit objectively, it will be a pleasant surprise. it seems to me that honestly i 'll tell you how all our

international negotiations now are the main thing - these are not negotiations. the main thing is what happens on the battlefield. and this is what determines the situation. and as you well know, or you yourself have said this more than once, president zelensky and his colleagues have repeatedly announced that there will be a serious counteroffensive in august. moreover, in the united states, officials also said that they support ukraine with weapons and to everyone else for this offensive. who did not expect miracles, but in general they said that this offensive will most likely show that the dynamics of the war. it has changed in favor of ukraine and cnn which you tested quite as my point of view. this is once a liberal, but still an objective tv company. they became

just part of the propaganda machine of the globalists in every possible way created the impression that the ukrainian offensive. if you are destined to be successful in large part as a result of american military assistance. well, there are other voices. let's hear what a prominent military expert, a retired lieutenant colonel, has to say about his weight. ah, in american discussions. he stretches. at least a three-star general and this is the lead commentator. uh fox uh csn he said it on fox let's see. over the past six months, russian troops have taken control of a fairly large area, they are advancing slowly, but methodically and inexorably, whenever they take territory under their control, then don't leave her anymore. however, in recent days, especially in this area, russia has resumed offensive operations and trial attacks, but what

is not happening, although the ukrainians have been talking about this for months. so this is a big counter-offensive to take back kherson but this never happened. i have said many times that they do not have the strength to do so. oh, very welcome to the program. thank you for the invitation. you are not just well-known to the russian express, you are well-known experts of the united states with your views. it counts as your opinions i’m interested in your opinion on what colonel davis said, you know, there are two aspects here, one is the piano aspect of the media, yes, and we perfectly understand that all this information environment is there twitter yes facebook uh, most of the channels they are of course neutral they are about ukrainian therefore everything as for, uh, any hostilities towards the russians, the glass will always be half empty towards the ukrainians. it will always be half full and there is no need to be under any illusions. if we return specifically to situation at the front, we must understand that this is

what is happening now in ukraine in reality. this was predictable, because already in 1973 in the middle east, then during the iran-iraq war, it became clear that large mechanized columns were being stopped by modern armaments. the fire is already so strong that it is impossible to make these roundabout maneuvers. however, most analysts both in the west and in the soviet union wrote it off. as a matter of fact, there are some inept arabs there, and there, in general, persians with other arabs, that is, it seemed to everyone that this was rather an exception, and then there was a successful storm in the gulf according to a completely different scenario. and now we see what the real nature of war is. and how would the grimace of fate change in this, what we seem to see. such a first world war 2:0 is again what they were talking about, french strategies, artillery, destroys infantry, and so right now the ukrainians follow the same scenario. they tried to work us as far as they could with artillery, and then their infantry, mechanized units. tried

create for us. uh, a small micro-cauldron. however, we see that this did not work. yes, the only thing they managed to bring. uh, pontoon crossings to transfer a certain number of troops, but they were all thrown back. they suffered heavy losses in this sense, again, this vardanization. yes, but it works both ways. we ukrainians experience the same problems. and so, when you see how it is in the west, some super warriors are molded from them. and super successful. no, they are the same living people they have the same problems. e, dmitry e, ruslan the united states is, in principle, deeply involved in the ukraine conflict. they provide assistance to the ukrainian armed forces on an ongoing basis. now, after the cnn statement with which we started, the united states is also indirectly responsible for the success of this ukrainian counter-offensive, since it was said that they supplied weapons to ukraine precisely with an eye on this contour offensive. i fully agree with both

ruslan's analysis and colonel davis's analysis that, apparently, this is an offensive fails. yes. e, apparently, based on davis's assessment and certainly boils through, focusing on the assessment of the russian ministry of defense, respectively, the united states is already experiencing reputational damage. here is dmitry . what do you think that in the situation of ukraine’s inability to really go on a large-scale counteroffensive, the united states will now do it, because many in washington spoke and wrote about this counteroffensive as a milestone stage of the war , a critical, important, decisive stage of the war, which much will determine. now we see that it does not achieve success. it seems to me that there are two options, either to qualitatively build up american military assistance. and here and now, but it threatens to escalate uncontrollably, or still recognize the obvious fact that it is impossible to defeat russia on the battlefield, but then it is necessary to

move on to negotiations, which is also difficult, given the domestic political situation in the united states, the upcoming midterm congressional elections, the need to maintain unity by the allies, including from great britain and poland and the baltic states and so on. here's what to do, in your opinion, dmitry, in preparation for this program , pavel made telephone conversations and asked people who are not currently working in the administration, well, who worked in serious positions and dealt with precisely this kind of problem alone. a civilian expert, and another general. and so, when i asked the general how he assesses the results of the ukrainian offensive, there was clearly some kind of smirk. i couldn't see her on the phone, but here's the tone she clearly was and he said dmitry a. do you remember jimmy carter when he called them a complete ses

when he sent helicopters to rescue, uh, american hostages in the temple, yes, in tehran yes , and like helicopters, uh, landed, but only uh, a lot of people died, the operation had to be canceled. and so jimi carter said, it's near the non-complex. by the way, it was an incomplete success. well, in general, there was a hint that the ukrainians managed to go on the offensive, right? that they had some very, impressive technique? here are the results. they are so far have not achieved. and if you believe not just the official russian statement, but also many assessments that i have seen, including in the new york times. this partial success came at a heavy cost to ukraine and so i don't know what ruslan thinks but it may turn out that this is in general, i'm not just here for

a couple of bad days, but that this will affect the ability of ukraine to go on a really serious offensive, or am i exaggerating? well, it seems to me that this is how events develop. now shows that ukraine has no resources e to spend in a truly massive offensive. rather, these are such political demonstrations. yes, but with the goal that those who are so heavily invested in the ukrainian victory over us, but continue to support, i will say more. and when we look at those arms deliveries , they are by and large divided into equal parts quite a bit europeans and everything that the europeans managed to scrape together and there in pakistan yes , uh, there the british tried to buy kazakhstan somewhere and the americans americans, of course , able to put a lot of americans and on there is storage in the troops, uh, and the haimars and a huge number of howitzers. i'll tell you more, the americans have, again, this experience, when in the seventy- third year a huge number of israeli tanks. uh, the arab armies were packed

, american tanks were urgently transferred just from germany yes, which were supposed to hold back the uh hermetic soviet offensive there, therefore, if the americans want, of course they can easily add, uh, gasoline to this fire or oil and, of course, in this sense. uh, very uh, so it is tragicomic to observe that on the one hand, and in america there are sound voices, well, here is professor misheimer, yes, whom they are trying to polish in every possible way. so i brought to our air the book of the great american political scientist, now deceased. bertha jorlis, who wrote his time, was personally known. yes, i had the privilege of knowing him. perceptions of misperceptions of international politics. so just before his death last december . in november, he sent out, to a close circle of his friends, a certain meme that, enough e to sham putin and russia that they want to create some kind of great empire , which in fact, according to jorvis, and russia is defending russia sees a threat in this spiral system. maybe she exaggerates this threat,

but she really feels it. and we must empathize and stand, so to speak, in the shoes of the russians, so the americans are hesitating on one side. no one wants escalation from sane people. yes, especially since russia is a nuclear power, but on the other hand. well, the temptations are so great to click these russians completely. yes, and in this i mean, if the ukrainians, and at the front, seem to win, then, of course, the russians. gotta wait. we need to put more weapons. you need to push them harder . they won't allow it, so this is unfortunate. e. the offensive is ukrainian and successful , you clearly think that it was unsuccessfully correct. do you know fog of war? uh, a thing that is unpredictable at the moment, we see that on the third day they did not manage to achieve any but tactical success. yes, therefore, tactical successes are accompanied by a colossal number of victims. you you know tactical successes must be translated into operational successes. otherwise, any tactical success is just a waste

of resources, so defeat is de facto. yes, so i really hope that, uh, when this offensive is final. uh, more voices will choke in america, realists in every sense of the word and sensible statesmen, such as the late joyce's mixer, and not some critical living kissinger, who, by the way, are also constantly trying to polish, can speak. it's just such a lump that much developed. yes, they put this man, 90. 9 years old, on the site peacemaker dmitry i have the most important question for you what to do in washington it seems to me that there is some kind of paradox in the perception of russia and personally vladimir putin on the one hand. this is how he is portrayed, one gets the impression that he is a fiend, that there is no such atrocity that he would not commit. on the other

hand, not to be afraid, or at least not very afraid lost respect, which was during the cold war, maybe there was hatred, maybe there was fear, but there was respect, and now no one respects anyone. for some reason, everyone thinks that for the sake of some kind of selfie. well, i'll give you an example, when the americans in the open several times lily information that they were inciting the ukrainians. uh, ukrainian guns and ukrainian snipers to kill our generals. well , imagine if during some visit of the american director of the cia to ukraine we would have taken him and killed and we would have been proud. here, it just needs to be hidden. this must be hidden. it a covert operation, and people are proud of it, they are killing russians. uh. as the special operation began, the united states withdrew all its diplomatic personnel from kiev, recommended that zelensky leave. so, not to be afraid at all and even more so, you don’t

know, i wouldn’t say, but due to the fact that i see that you are afraid of something, i don’t understand another. i sincerely don't understand. now , if they see putin the way they say. then why? and they think that if the united states escalates, this is the same putin, his advisers and russian society as a whole, that their reaction to the american escalation will be to admit defeat and sit down at the negotiating table from a position of weakness, and not do what putin did launched a special operation, that is, at an unexpected moment, take unexpected actions and show that russia is not afraid, but resolutely defend their interests. how do you explain this situation and the right to fly those who think that it is possible to escalate without risking

a serious radical response from russia dmitry did not accidentally robert jervis, but emphasized. eh what do not tease the russian bear and that russia's reaction today is a response to the actions of nato and the collective west why because robert jervis was one of the classics and theorists of containment, he is one of the co-authors of the theory, there is another such moment, he says, everything they want to be churchills terribly and no one wants to be branded as a chamberlain, because, uh, no one now remembers what chamberlain's so-called appeasement of hitler was connected with. yes, although this is not very fashionable now. was due to the fact that everyone understood that the first world war was largely the fault of the uk and that the first world war was such a massacre of people, so chamberlain wanted to just give a chance to peace. yes, it turned out not quite successfully, by the way, exactly, then

the europeans, including the british, invaded the canal zone, yes, they actually tried to attack egypt, because they all in their some kind of these terrible dreams saw shit by the new hitler, yes, that is absolutely crooked mirror so here people go ah-ah about their own stereotypes, instead of stopping, yes, and let's say kennedy in some sense of the word, he gave up the slack. yes, he is so handsome with such a beautiful wife succumbed to some dork. yes, he agreed not to crush cuba, but he saved and withdraw the missiles, and he saved the world. yes, now we know that this is a great statesman. now there are practically no great statesmen left. everyone thinks only about the next elections, but still, well, dmitry well, why doesn't anyone think so. and what do you think? the main thing would be russia's response if this escalation from the collective west would continue i

honestly don't think the united states would consciously and deliberately want it to escalate because containment is still working and so i started talking from gervis. he was one of the first theorists who substantiated the necessity of using nuclei. in weapons to deter not only a nuclear strike, but also a non-nuclear attack , this is exactly what is happening today in russian american and russian nato relations and russia has made clear many times what could happen if the united states creates an unbearable situation for russia in ukraine and also if russia's very existence is threatened even without a nuclear strike against russia russia will use nuclear weapons on decision-making centers . that is, including in uh, the united states. so, and the biden administration, of course, would like to avoid this moment. i don't think the biden administration will dramatically escalate and qualitatively increase character

of its military assistance to ukraine, even in the conditions of the defeat of the ukrainian ukrainian armed forces in the kherson nikolaev and kryvyi rih directions , precisely in order to escape from the escalation, i think in washington this is my opinion, my perception that the united states is not betting on the victory of ukraine in the theater of military operations , but for the long-term prolongation of this conflict, and in order to exhaust russia as much as possible without inflicting some kind of military defeat on the battlefield, and there they hope that in the end the cumulative effect sanctions and this is the long-term exhaustion of russia during hostilities for 3-5 years. i don't know what they are counting on in washington after all. yes, this quantity will grow into quality and the balance of power will change, and russia will then not now. and then he can go for, uh, some

concessions. this is evidenced by the intention of the united states to continue ukrainian military supplies to ukraine without transferring these supplies. qualitatively new level. here is ruslan, and i have such a question, when i think about the possibilities of russia not theoretical, but quite practical. if, let's say, there will be a threat of the loss of crimea until such a threat is visible. uh, well, ukraine, its patrons, is clearly the first thing that comes to my mind is guided by the creation of such a threat. this is that russia still has a wide range of opportunities, and which, for various reasons, it did not use. well, for example, it costs nothing, but to paralyze the ukrainian

electrical system with artillery, and most importantly, air strikes with rocket strikes. i am telling you now not on the basis of the secrets that were revealed to me in moscow. based on what the experts are talking about, especially the washington second times experts. just expressed surprise, and how well ukrainian railways work, and how russia practically does not touch ukrainian trains, let alone. as for passenger trains, you said about the command and control centers in washington, but there is a command and control center in kiev, which are clearly very vulnerable to ukraine, there is the possibility of full or partial russian mobilization and finally. i really doubt. at least i hope not to live to see the moment when strategic nuclear weapons will be used, but there is ruslan, you know, better than me, tactical adren limited-

use weapons that russia has that ukraine does not have and that could dramatically change the course of the war. i don't want to give the impression that i 'm trying to create a horror picture, and i do n't want to give the impression that i myself recommended all these things, because they are the decision maker. and i understand that those who make decisions should. to find out that action gives rise to reaction and think about the price that would have to be paid. that's for those, uh, military capabilities that i just described. well, i want to ask you if these opportunities that i mentioned are real, if there are any other things that moscow could use to quickly prove, if necessary, that escalation is a road to nowhere, you know, uh, a special military operation, but carried out with all its outward openness, but hmm with

some very large concealment measures our plans, but what is quite obvious in contrast to the ukrainians, so to speak, but scorching from the arteries to the right and left, at least at the initial stage of the special operation of the first few months. we actually entered this ring. uh, with one hand tied, our troops were given de facto orders, and how can we reduce the collateral damage, but when the intensity of uh hostilities is so great, and this damage will be, uh, anyway, unfortunately, this is how war works. and here. i would like to remember dr. kissinger, who at one time, uh, talking to the israeli military when they were discussing war and peace, said you know, it's better you hit 15% harder than 15% weaker. yes, that's why i think that sooner or later, and already now, our military will abandon this tactic of conditional warfare in white gloves. i

understand how it sounds in the background. e dead people, but on my part, but this is a kind of convention, because the ukrainians do not limit themselves. nothing to say one more moment, which, uh, i am after 25 years studying the arms trade, of course. uh, they just lose their minds when i see how the americans irresponsibly supply weapons at the time there was a huge debate. is it necessary to supply stingers to afghanistan for jahed or not? and when they began to deliver in the eighty-fifth year, there was a special procedure, when one mujahid launched the stinger, the second had to be filmed and the americans wanted to get this video and know that it had been shot, it had not gone somewhere already in 8 years. uh so called, well antiterrorist operations in the donbass, a huge amount of weapons from ukraine has spread, all over europe, murder , robberies, and occur mainly with these weapons, if in the early nineties and in the zero years

yugoslavia and the balkans were the main center for the distribution of black weapons, now it’s scary to imagine ukraine, how this weapon will spread. maybe, of course, the americans believe that these are all anti-tank. uh, complexes of various kinds, the most powerful small arms manpads will not hit them. but what is european. uh, there will be banks criminals will be hiding on armored cars. it's only a matter of time before it starts. and yes, it will start very soon. why is everyone so mad? yes, they don’t calculate, this is what is called back fire in english . i just don’t understand where those great thinkers and all the great analysts who always calculated the consequences have gone, they themselves said, uh, and dmitry spoke about this more than once, uh, it’s degradation on the program. yes, degradation. uh, here is a foreign policy institution not only in

america in the collective west, and you know, i 'm trying to catch myself thinking all the time. or maybe it's just that i'm already at the age when everything is rolling. uh, here, uh, it’s completely different, that it is necessarily worse, but when i look at the insignificance of the argument or dmitry, we said the absence of arguments, just the absence. and we said so, so it is. and if you tell us that this is wrong, then you are putin's agent, yes. and if you are agent putin, i will finish the conversation, right culture, cancellation, and in fact the totalitarian atmosphere that i now prevail in the american expert community. i want to ask you, just to ask you a question about the decision-making system in washington, well, uh, i completely agree with ruslan that the united states has even larger reserves of those weapons that they can and will substitute for the kiev regime, but

how we know perfectly well with you dmitry in here, and one of the advantages of the american political system is that the decision to allocation of money passes congress early next year, most likely, either one or both houses of congress will come under the control of the republican party. and now, if ukraine is now really failing in its attempt. the counteroffensive in kherson how will this affect the political will of the congressional republicans, especially the republican-controlled one, to allocate biden administration money to support ukraine early next year because again i return to what i already mentioned many in washington considered this the notorious counteroffensive as a critical turning point that will show. should i continue down this path or not? e, dmitry, as you

well know, i know that you know what you yourself said about it at the program. we are now on the eve of the midterm elections and the republicans are already saying, e that biden is an incompetent weakling, he lost catastrophically, afghanistan and on the eve of the midterm elections. republicans want to show that biden is a weakling and therefore they are ready to show that biden is a hawk, and they are super hawks. uh, such a need after the midterms. i don't want to say it won't, but it will change significantly. second, if the republicans do seize control of the house of representatives, which seems likely by now. yeah, i don't think they will. let's stop supporting ukraine , they said otherwise. let's investigate the byte administration, how and what they spend their money on, and the congressional committees will start looking at

all these things that i just talked about. ruslan where is the help going? what control over how this aid is distributed. what results this help brings, that is, he will not say. let's leave ukraine tell. let's stop throwing away americans. money and that, of course, already as they say, in washington it would be a game-cha. this would change the nature of the game, the nature of the discussion, it is quite possible, especially since the allocation or throwing away of american money does not change the situation qualitatively better for the united states in the theater of operations. dmitry ruslan nikolaevich thanks a lot for this conversation. we will return to this studio in a few moments and we will talk about the role of mikhail sergeevich gorbachev in the end of the cold war and in the history of russia and the world. well, thank you very much. zaporizhzhya npp is completely

switched off ukrainian power engineers hastened to make such statements. but when they learned the truth, they immediately changed their fake publications. we are not just dealing with terrorists, we are dealing with nuclear terrorists and another fake about a nuclear power plant. on the eve of the visit of the iaea, the fox around with supposedly sets it on fire on purpose and blames, as always, russia is in my hands with a fragment of an m-77 shell, as well as a motor rally in athens, which made a lot of noise, which the greeks demand from the zelensky operation and its success is for the benefit of all european peoples. we'll tell you soon antifreak tomorrow at the first cream has a complex effect penetrating into the focus of inflammation and helping to relieve pain and reduce swelling

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discussing this role played by the personality of mikhail sergeyevich gorbachev, who yesterday from us he left both at the end of the cold war and in the development of the history of russia, europe and the whole world, and professor mgimon, andronik joins us for this discussion as a mosessant granyan, who even then during the years of perestroika had a great influence on soviet a. then, of course, russian foreign policy. well, here's the first question. i want to ask dmitry a website dmitry, in the west, the end of the cold war and the collapse of the soviet union are very often presented as two parts of a single whole and, moreover, the end of the cold war on west. many even date the collapse of the soviet union. and that is why they often began to talk in the west and now it is a matter of consensus about the victory of the

west in the cold war, because they are chastising. with the cold war, just the collapse of the soviet union and this tradition was established after the famous speech of president george w. cold war. here. listen, the biggest thing that happened in my entire life in our lifetime was that with the help of god, america won the cold war. dmitry but this is a fundamental mistake , and gorbachev himself and, uh, the united states ambassador to the soviet union under gorbachev, jack metluck, emphasizes in his book on the superpower illusion that this is not so, that it is impossible to

equate the end of the cold war with the collapse of the soviet union and even more so to draw a causal relationship between them soviet the union collapsed for domestic political reasons, the cold war had nothing to do with it. and this is extremely important for understanding heritage. gorbachev's historical heritage. gorbachev 's cold war ended in 1989 . the soviet union collapsed in the ninety-first. you agree with this dmitry and analytical dmitry you are absolutely right. if we talk about what the politicians said, and president bush sr., he, of course, was not only the head of state, but also a politician who was very worried about i want to remind you of my e reputation in the ninety- second year. he was going to run again for the presidency and he, of course, wanted to have

such a truly historic victory on his account in the future. i also want to tell you that of course, uh, if we talk about the tasks of the united states a in uh rivalry with the soviet union, then here is to completely separate what happened in the eighty-nine year, when the cold war ended, and what followed almost immediately after this collapse of the soviet union analytical it could be it’s very difficult to talk about politics correctly, but i agree with you, as i understand it, the main postulate that the collapse of the soviet union was primarily the result of internal processes, of course, that the united states was happy about this process, encouraged it, but played in it . in general, a very minor role. and in

general, here it is necessary to ask a question about the role of gorbachev, her role as yeltsin of many, and the mood in russia at the moment when, uh, the russian parliament voted for sovereignty, the overwhelming majority of the communists also voted for it. and after all, you remember it was the vote in moscow that marked the beginning of this wave of sovereignties, which then spread to other republics. ukraine in this company of sovereignties was the second, not the first, but for me, for me, in this matter, when we talk about mikhail sergeyevich gorbachev. the most important thing is different. firstly, i want to say that he was a really decent person, as a politician, as a person who started very much like a story.