to a family from life in general from anything . she, of course, can provoke the acquisition of a child at any cost and the offer of such a service as usual, because, if there is a demand to obtain a child, yes, then there will be an offer, and women who are in difficult life situations, and in this sense. yes, there is another line of attitude in society, uh, to surrogate motherhood, in fact, like prostitution, like trafficking in love, uh, in people and trafficking in one's own body. and when the body is literally rented out, even the name serial container. yes, it reflects. in a sense, this point of view, that it is difficult here , just a mother is sitting here screaming to the heroine, you are a prostitute. you are a whore. here, how do you respond? it's so that such a mother can answer, well, in this sense, mother wants to support by the throat, in general, it's fine. it's just a heroine's game. uh, beyond praise,

because you want to, uh, start fighting her at some point, and she plays great. yes, but still you want to ask me what i think, i'm prostitution - is it or not? no, i don't think it is prostitution, but i think that this is a very difficult episode for a woman, but contempt and some kind of uh, the overthrow of these women or not. listen, in many countries, uh, commercial surrogacy for money is prohibited. well, you can almost for free when it's a ministry. yes , i think it makes sense. i'm sorry. well, today i will agree, smart only meaning, which is interrupting the meaning of childbearing. it can help to leave the psyche guard to the same surrogate mother. that is, if she believes in her service, and it is more valuable to her, than a function somewhere birth. actually, where did she give birth to strength, huh? this is the meaning

that came out. he can help her survive. eventually. yes, she didn’t just, uh, she went through the torment and gave it away. well, i got the money. what did she do that was great? and this is generally normal. you know, there is a concept. uh, in some countries now there is social sex social it's like when uh, it's uh, fine line. yes, it is not considered prostitution when for people who cannot get sex, for example, there, but the disabled or there people who face a number of difficulties, they can find a partner and miss it not necessarily disabled, they can seek solace in such uh without uh disinterested uh sex workers who are not for money, but in order to comfort hug stay and return a person to human dignity associated with sex have sex with them. well, such a treatment of the soul through the body, if we talk about danger, well, actually. in my opinion, babel has a story when

the first world war and a young, almost noblewoman girl gets e as a nurse in the hospital and he is kicked out of there because he had sex with a wounded man and i explain to the doctor, even if in his place there was the most snuffed out most vile man, i would still give myself up, because they returned to the front. they are wounded, they can die at any moment, but you are not really alone. there is such a form of service, true well, look how we are talking about extreme points, if the middle ones, well, first of all, let 's not reduce everything to women's ministry. i remember classical literature in my head i received one episode of the strugatsky e. about a young handsome officer who returned from the front in orders. uh, black-haired , broad-shouldered and was seen all the time in the company of very dubious ugly often not young.

they asked women and friends under a glass, what are you, you are an enviable groom , especially when there are few men, he says, i spend some time with them in order to have some kind of male joy, because they don’t have a man for themselves found after the war. here the man turns himself into an object. uh, that happens too, and he turns himself into grisha's object, but this object is illuminated with a meaning for it, anything you can find somewhere, the higher meaning will work. it seems to me that there are such acute topics as surrogate motherhood and poe, there is a social section and other things in general , these ones that are on the verge. yes, on the one hand, they very much break the cultural historical context that has evolved over the centuries. sorry, yes, on the other hand, these facts have been in history for centuries too. yes, here we stand here on a very thin line. i think it's about the size of a large kitchen knife, but you can do not cut meat, but you can kill a person. ah, well, in general, yes. here, probably, the question

is not about the phenomenon. e most surrogate motherhood. and about how we use it in private history or in social history in general, because here you are, after all, today in the role of such a boring lecturer. yes, everything is different at home, dear listeners. we have it the other way around. i'm actually the smartest. she's a fool there, but borscht, it doesn't matter in different ways, but still, if this story went through our lives, how would we sort it out. here are the heroes in full ass. sorry for the existential crisis, of course, responsibility. here, exactly. eh, how would you and i choose here. and depending on what scenario we have. do you mean eco uh, or do you type back motherhood, because we'll give marina i fantasize about that. uh, that i would tell the child everything and maintain relations with the surrogate mother, i fantasize that if we were lucky

, the surrogate mother would turn out to be a fairly adequate person. she would be kindred in some sense, who would be in leather in family, and out of jealousy, i would not have plucked him out of hearing. and i know that skeletons are like a psychologist. yes, i know that the skeletons in the closet, and such complicated stories. they have very uh, big consequences for the family system as a whole and for the fate of a particular person. in particular. i have seen such things many times. i could turn off my cover to turn off my psychologist by turning off my jealous mother. uh, you know, uh, theoretically. yes, but practically. i understand that, uh, a lot depends on whether we can get along with her, yes, here, like two people. well, here, not only i built a contact, let's say, i could, maybe i couldn't. well, by the way, another variant of the situation with two mothers, the so-called mitochondrial, has now appeared. mom, let me remind you that we have genes in the nucleus and a little bit of genes are in the mitochondria

of our cells and some hereditary diseases are associated specifically with mitochondria. and scientists, and not in america. although the couple is american, but the americans did not allow it, in my opinion, in mexico they still have a clinic, in my opinion, it has not been disclosed. a child who has in the core the genes of one woman. well, naturally, along with the genes of men, and the mitochondria of another woman, the concept of mitochondrial appeared a little in parallel with the mother. there is also a nuclear one, yes, but in fact, if it already seems to me, you get involved in something or something more complex. e technology. if you decide to do this, then it seems to me that you must accept the consequences, they try to cut them off and throw them out the window. and this is my opinion. like a psychologist. first of all. yes, as a person, too . you and i also had an experience of trying, but acquiring a child there on their own clinic

. unfortunately, both experiments were crowned. success. yes, but at some point we decided not to try again. come on, my position, if you want my opinion, that, of course, genes are wonderful, but it is so important how a person grows, with whom he grows. and here it is obsession with genes to me until the end. it's not clear and there is an episode in the series a little spoiler a little bit at all, when one of the heroines finds out that her sister. actually her mother. uh-huh and the girl is in shock the girl is in a panic. here i am i was sure that the girls would have a completely different reaction at the age of 14, don't forget, but they still have brains. and that's what they will reaction was the sister became. mom, what's the difference? we lived together, lived together, understood each other, and it often happens that a child lives with an aunt, they understand each other better. they understand better, look, i

wanted to finish than and we stopped, in part, because these technologies. uh, how would they be about no matter how much they give hope, it's true, they are progressive give hope and they still, well, there are enough costly to health, and at some point. e, if a woman uses a couple, a man together with a woman makes this decision with such technologies. ah, at some point there comes a line beyond which, uh. it is too costly in terms of health in anticipation of some kind of mental costs. and here's what you're talking about the influence of the environment. i'm using the possibilities of adopted children here. well, and i, therefore, am not afraid of foster children. i'm ready for this because i certainly believe in genetics in a way, but in general i understand that the stratal influence is much stronger, and in the

end he considered me his father. although how old he was when we met nine, in my opinion, eight eight, that is, he is biologically. the son of another man of another man and you, but at the same time he has my habits, my gestures. it seems to me, and partially mimimiko, my political views are my views on life, and then we come to everything with you in the end. yes, to what i already said, three meters earlier about the fact that the formation of attachment, and not just environmental ones. ah, the factors. yes, but basically the formation of attachment often determines, including the psychological status of a person, and including this genetic connection, mine is not mine, when i look at the facial features, they are not mine. yes, but something comes to me through attachment. that is, i make mine, and then we facial features begin to change in your direction. agree. you look like me. yes? i think that if we ever decide

to adopt a child, he will be like us. i'm sure of that too, even if it's genetic, and if it's established, it will not be genetically there, it seems to me with you, yes, any genetics will win. uh no, the task of fighting people is genetics. i'd rather join this. that's good. i think it's time to end our podcast on this note. this is a schlödinger code podcast hosted by grigory tarasevich , a popular science journalist. the editor-in-chief of the magazine code schetingery and our today's guest svetlana karlovich psychologist psychotherapist and my wife. this is a podcast of the psyche. my name is natalya loseva, a journalist at my co-host of the clinical psychologist candidate of psychological sciences mikhail

khors hello and our today's guest anastasia anastasia tell us what brought us to you. i came to you with such a problem that i started having panic attacks and they diagnosed me. i am now striving for this in order to find out exactly with the professionals what is happening with me, but according to the descriptions and self-feelings , this is exactly what happened at the beginning of this year, but the peak came when i realized that something had to be done. it is necessary to change something when i was just filling out the documents for a visa. well, it would seem that some ordinary documents that are constantly filled out. i saw a list of uh documents, there were a lot of things to prepare. and my body just froze. i couldn’t breathe, and i slammed the laptop shut, just threw it away, and for about an hour i tried to breathe and meditate.

that is, i just didn’t know what could help me, so i’ll think meditation immediately dialed on the phone, listened and tried to breathe through this. and after that, for several months, i didn’t have such moments right now. well, just a month and a half it started back, but on an ongoing basis, the most, probably, terrible thing is when i’m lying down and i can’t get up, as if my body is just, but paralyzed, and everything inside is like that, that is, well, a very terrible feeling. eh, it's not lazy. when you're just i don't want to get up. and you want. you have everything right here, like this, uh, it boils exactly, as if in the soul in the region of the lungs. i don’t know how to explain the nerves, but there are also a lot of thoughts in my head, and they are just at each other there are ideas and experiences, that is. very big flow thoughts that i seem to be unable to cope with, well, that is, you are in such a slightly disassembled state, all the time excitedly

worried about something. what else is going on in your life? how does it reflect. this is your state of communication with your loved ones with yours , i don’t know your work almost a year ago, i was in brazil, uh, i have a brazilian ex-husband, a son and a translator from portuguese. yes, i'm a translator and uh, i went there to pick up my son and decided to stay longer to work. i just can’t get you to be your husband yes ex a child was born you are there in married so in moscow and he is there and you took him away. he is not here. dad just took it. meet the family for 3 months. two and a half months later, i went to pick him up and thought to work somehow. i have a block in portuguese to shoot. well, in general, i had such emotions. uh, the expectations are very high, such brazil itself and and i didn’t succeed. but i didn’t have

that i couldn’t find a job, and the brazilians have a different rhythm of life. they are like that. well, they are slow, they can negotiate 3 months. that is, i came from russia where everything is clear there. we are filming there in a week, they can call for tomorrow, but you have arrived. i mean stay. yes, no, not to stay, but i just wanted to do it, yes, and at that time in moscow you didn’t have any kind of work. well, no. i just somehow planned all this in advance, that i usually work. well, yes, yes it is unstable. and yes, i didn’t succeed, but i didn’t have the strength. here is such a lowering of the hands. ah, that is, if you compare it with my state now, that is, i have lost it, as if the connection with myself says that you need just give thanks. what is around there are all sorts of diaries where it is written. write down five pieces of gratitude, i can do it without any problems. and there i am grateful for my son , i am grateful for my family. and i'm grateful for the sun there. well, that is, for what you had to be grateful. but the meaning, but inside i

either know that they don’t understand, i don’t understand, i lost mine inside now, as i don’t know how to wash my anal emotionally. yes, i have , uh, young man, but he is from europe and no matter how hard, it turns out the distance in the distance hard, it turns out clear to support. that is, you seem to be stuck at some time. yes, you know between heaven and earth. i didn't even hang up. and i'm like, well, i'm in such a simple state. all right, down below. look, michael, someone will listen. maybe now the strange story of our heroine. well, what are you more interesting to yourself than yes, what are you fantasizing about? well, you think it's hung somewhere there somewhere, right? well, aunt is good to eat, that there are relatives there is a child? well, what are you actually telling us here. this. it seems to me very

such. maybe this is a philistine view, very popular. what happens to our heroine, and our heroine has a crisis, just a crisis, you understand, a crisis of self-determination, a crisis of some kind of personal inner. yes, you change and grow. become more mature there are some expectations that you had there a few years ago partially, maybe not realized or completely yes, a crisis, but our heroine, for some reason, decided that in her life the only wonderful anastasia in the world would not have a crisis must. what if anastasia i decided that to get out of the crisis right away, so everything needs to come out at once. here she is 28 years old. this is probably the first crisis in your life, no. i had, uh, a crisis, uh, it started before

pregnancy. i had a rather difficult relationship with my ex-husband, emotionally difficult, and then i had such a difficult, unhappy state of some kind, which, in principle, well, depression would now tell , and that’s it, then a child was born, and i’m happy, i never it was not that i blame my son, on the contrary. he somehow betrayed me, and the same was brazilian. yes, yes, this same brazilian, and we broke up after the pandemic. i started going to a psychologist. i began to sort out my injuries. and that is, i had some kind of crisis, but i somehow freed myself very quickly. after that, i was somehow insanely happy, somehow like this. here is the natural way. they just came to the conclusion that it's time to leave or something happened in your relationship. e. my ex-husband broke up every six months. hmm temperament for such a yes, and how did they build it like that? every bullshit on

some everyday moments that this time it’s already impossible to put up with them, and i’m such a person who keeps everything in himself, and everything inside me is seething, and i have a feeling that it’s not worth wasting time happened. well, what everyday moments, that he didn’t die with his brazilian socks, there or i’m going. you are ready not in this plan. here, oddly enough. we got along very well, i mean, we help. this was the reason for his impulses to get away from this, the last thing was that he did not have enough space, we lived in my one-room apartment, but he did not have enough space to work. my son and i left in the morning and returned at night. that is, i walked with a stroller all this time , but he still had enough time to work, it was crowded, stuffy, and so on, and then after that he worked at home. yes, we worked with him. he mounted. and i was filming there. and you also earned. it turns out together. yes? that is, he did not have any separate income of his own, but was somehow discussed. uh, such

an idea, for example, that he will go to work somewhere else, but he will give, for example , now a bad native speaker will go to portuguese lessons, and you will rent a bigger apartment. you will rent, for example, and there will be a lot of space for him or such a decision. yes, adult male. let me make more money, if i don't have enough places it came to him, well, ahead of the future, like, yes, and right now i'm better at that moment as a wife and uh , we have because i don't have enough space. we just, uh, at some point i was already tired and i had more strength to understand, thanks to my son, what i need to be happy, i didn’t have a goal to part with them, initially, of course, i told him, they tried to save their families with their teeth. yes, yes, i told him. look, we have two options. we either part with you, or let's go anyway. at least to the psychologist we will try to figure out what to do? he agreed to go to a psychologist. he said that's the problem. only i have problems with him. no.

so we somehow calmly without a quarrel, then after uh, a couple of weeks uh, we decided to leave, well, we are in normal relations, that is, as a friend, he and he is a great person in the distant brazil a. he was still here for a year and a half , he helped me with us, he or the dog. here is the child. he helped me with a dog, he lived with 5 minutes from home. well, normally civilized. yes, a divorce, but, apparently, you still didn’t get out of this divorce. and to put it mildly , happy. yes, that is, there are some worked out things. it seems to me from the relationship itself. i left. normal, it looks like yes, it seems to me, yes, right now i have, if there are any injuries, then they are. hey, here are the triggers. yes, they say, they are, but they are also connected with my childhood, because i had a rather difficult relationship with my stepfather, and i also traced many things, that is, what

my ex-husband did, for example, did very well. dropped it many times. yes, it was in the look. ah, there is such a look, a little cold and mad. i remembered the look. e your stepfather. that is, it’s just emptiness and not love, yes, such emptiness, and you suddenly saw a reflection. here from the abyss she breathed those. it's scary, but childhood trauma. yes, i just worked out the moments with a psychologist. and like my dad too. dear dad tell us dad died when i was 16 years old, that was a long time ago. not me. now, you won't cry anything. can you cry? i just understand that this was the only person who understood me emotionally

and morally. he never pressured me. i'm the kind of person that you can't yell at me. he loved me very much. i don’t know that he is my own, dad, but what, i think that he is very much i perceived him as just a man for some reason, who i love very much. that is , you thought that your stepfather is your very. i know we are very simple. my mother had one husband, then there was another husband. and i thought that this is another husband of this very little for me , he turned out to be my own dad, and i always have why my mother in me said that you didn’t say these are your relatives. and how did you know that he was your real dad after he was the number they told me that, well, he is your dad the real one and i never understood, like what why does he treat me like that? well , that is, i am a child, i did not understand that people understood what you felt with your whole body, that he loves you very much. yes, they did not understand him. here is my god. that is, it seems to me, now the most painful thing for you is that you can no longer say. look, i know it's my

dad. yes, i can. maybe well, tell me, but tell me, please, tell me. tell dad, i miss you very much. sorry, i didn't know when he died. i didn't know he was going to die either. well, for 16 years you don’t take it seriously. he asked me to come to his hospital. i thought we are now i have a lot of business here. i have a band there, i bought myself guitars. i've arrived, of course, but i have a lot of guilt. and i understand that he is the only one who really understood me. i want to talk to him so much, i don't. well, nastya, well, you are mistaken. if he understood you, he would tell you that he is your dad. you see, he spoke, papa, he spoke, he spoke, but we don’t know that papa is next to him and thinks

that it’s very, so this man didn’t understand you to the extent that you think now. what did he understand about you? well, i'm probably talking more about creative moments, because it was the only human. it supported me in my work. well, they, of course, we know this situation is strange, but it seems to me that you have found a very important thread. yes, that e thread, which possibly holds our heroine. between heaven and earth, or there is a feeling that she is drowning, this is not a spoken, unlived relationship with dad and this discovery. yes, this mystery may be in this matter, perhaps, here already to rummage, the matter is not in the discovery. the point of guilt is that you have piled on the responsibility for these relationship. even though you were a child. he was your adult, you know, dad, but he didn’t say dad, dad, like he did, dad didn’t

hear him. don't talk like that. he wanted to be my boyfriend, this question to my mother, of course, my mother somehow explained. mom why didn't she know about it? well, somehow i don’t remember any specific explanation once again you were a child then, i understand this, no, you don’t understand. do you think that you were adults then and should have been? yes, all this is to understand to bear, this one. no, once again you were a child then. say it's me now was a child, right? i did not know much and could not know, tell me, i did not know much. i couldn't know, i'm not to blame. it's my fault. dad, it's not my fault. that means you still feel guilty. you see, in words , say it’s not your fault, but then you feel like an adult. yes, as if you were supposed to do his job for dad. i'm not saying he's

bad. i understand this with my head, she is not here, not here. this is where we begin to understand when we begin to pronounce the words. it's a way to manage your emotions. here come home, right in the bath. lock yourself from crying and right here a few times dad i didn't know, i'm not to blame. maybe our heroine has some kind of michael, a barrier of such a quality that there are unworked ones. this story of the relationship of love for dad and dad's love for her, maybe subconsciously goes , it seems that no one else will love her like that, really. nastya , no one will love you like that, as dad loves you. it's just not bad. they will simply love differently. why is this tragedy? this is not a tragedy. all clear. we are all in this situation, we dads love you there, yes, then it means they leave

our parents and no one loves us like that anymore. but it doesn't matter if your child loves you. he will love you differently, but he already loves you. yes, well, this is also a great love in which men can bathe. maybe not one else will also love you in their own way. but where is the trouble that no one will love you? as a dad, i have more trouble that i understand myself? yes, but here, let's you and i now e, as if now here now it seems like it doesn't. now it's like i 'm going straight down on, but it scares me too. i understand that i am a son, yes, everything you want, but he is the only mother. well, i love him madly too. why don't you love yourself, as if i expect from myself , that is, dissatisfied - not good enough to be myself. what scares me

most now is that i can't escape, as i said. from this state, that paralysis and seething, and these very panic attacks, which are probably all biologically like that. uh, max. expression of this emotional disorder. so, it means that you said such a phrase. i'm there son. all i want, don't give me, why? well, because it’s impossible to give everything, but in terms of love, i said that i have sincere ones. well, it's just not necessary. here you have these characteristics almost certainly present in speech. everything is not there. this is our unconscious, our psyche hears us and when we send these messages there. yes, everything is always, it means that it completely unconsciously begins to rise in price for us. how so? everything is everything, i can’t mean, and i have to do this, something must be done to change. go to wording. you can do something. and you can not do it. and

you can do it, but to some extent. and you can do it, but not now, but later with my son, since i don’t have myself. here, study, study, i speak directly to myself. i can later i can not do. i may be wrong. that is, wait, the first mouth. nasty your school people to yourself. she allows herself not to be perfect enough. and yes, and nastya thinks perfect, uh, then how i didn’t fantasize about myself, but in fact i’m ideal, since it’s a fact, you know now, uh, for example, what’s in my head is that almost a year has passed since i left for brazil oh, and i didn’t choke on anything, see, no one else here it's nothing and everything. these are the words that go along. you see, when you want everything from yourself. it turns out that

you didn’t do everything, which means nothing and you directly told yourself. here are the planks. i owe brazil a year, well, yes, to achieve that, you, i painted something, it’s clear that i didn’t write, i should have a million dollars in the account there. well, let me, but i just don’t remember now that i had some indicators of millions of subscribers and half a million dollars, well, adequate in this regard. you have written performance indicators for yourself. no one came to you, no there is an evil person so adequate nastya and you did not fulfill them. i'm just what i am. although, when i say that i don’t observe any relative at all. now i also understand that i was wrong, because i have grown a lot in the experience of fortitude. eat this year, of course i learned a lot from him it's nothing. no, i understand that this is

a lot, and now it is important for you to get used to this thought. how do we get used to something? repeating this many times, of course, the main thing is to repeat the truth.

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khors. today we are analyzing the problem of panic attacks nastya knows four languages, and quite difficult. this is what it says, well , except for the fact that she has achieved at least this already, yes. come on, let's go out now on the streets of moscow and ask who knows at least one foreigners says that nastya taught four foreign languages ​​that she knows how to achieve goals, that she is hardworking and hardworking. we know that languages ​​are taken, including, so to speak, uh, our muscles say about the soul, that nastya knew how to achieve goals and that she was efficient. it seems to me, but, in addition to the skill, you need more resources, you know, and this is how to buy yourself a beautiful one there. car gasoline yes and gasoline is a resource that the motor will require in

the engine, so a crisis is that it's always not what you wanted, yes, i got something for that, no, it doesn’t correspond to it itself - this is the norm. and the assessment of what, uh, when it doesn't match? this badly creates a crisis. and this crisis, er, there, some long-term chronic experiences. here you are with him now. what is better in this situation? if nastya writes an action plan with someone or someone for her once, if she changes her relationship, in no case, no action plans. no, you don't need everything. so what to do? i allow you to live for free at all, please, i live now now i live now just with my grandmother and my relatives yes they are very loved by relatives and , accordingly, they live with them, however, it’s cool. but this is a completely different work of the brain. we have completely different relationships.

absolutely do not understand. well, the first thing my grandmother said to me when i arrived was, like, i thought you had changed, you haven't changed, like, you're the same. like this, like this, that is , there is some set of class claims from the older generation. also, the older generation doesn’t like you nastya, but hmm , first of all, that i didn’t go to my diploma. by specialty, yes, although, in principle, yes, although, in principle, i have a university. it's not just a diploma. it is also a social circle. it is also skills and languages. and i use all this that i received at the university, but i don’t work there, i didn’t marry diplomats, and so on, and yes, here are some of them. that is, if i say that i feel bad for my grandparents or, in principle, the family, then they will most likely tell me that you are fine , yes, like natalya at the beginning. i didn't say you, but you gave an example, what did they say? yes, i'm always guilty in this place.