ha, it doesn't happen to every series, but three of them are based on rather controversial ideas, uh, not very relevant to modern reality, and only the series about demons, clinical thirteen, seems to be written off from the nature of demons. we all know they are reproduced by the screenwriter, goldsmith and director kozinsky exactly as we saw them with these demons and in general they are an idea. it was a podcast of grief by fire and its host denis gorelov a until the next meetings and until the next series. hi all. is this a podcast pc or console? my name is ilya pelikatsky. and i am a professional esportsman. hello friends. my name is konstantin sakhnov. i am

a game producer, game developer and teacher at the higher school of economics, i am glad to welcome everyone. my name is dmitry, a simple russian surname smith. i head the computer sports federation of russia, which is the president. and today. we wanted to talk about how gaming actually began, what was the chicken or the egg before, a computer or a console? here's what you got ahead, but my story is complicated, because that i had a console. ah, because i have many, many relatives i lived in the same apartment i didn’t have my own computer and when i studied very, very well. my parents decided to arrange such a trimmer for me and gave it to me. i was the happiest kid at the time, so you played alone at first yes, then i started making friends thanks to the console. and what is your story of konstantin, i was very lucky for 7 years. i was given for my birthday. dandy it was something before his first computer. of course, i was looking forward to

for a long time, but thanks to dandy, i just stopped having friends because i sat at home and didn’t go out anywhere. my story is a little different, i'm still born in the seventy-seventh year, and the first computer or console. i don't even fully understand myself, i had z expectrum. it seemed to be a computer, but which used a tv instead of a monitor, so it was something in between, but then, uh, my story still went to the computer, my e friend had a prefix. by the way, he always said never teach your parents to play, then you do not have enough time to play it yourself is generally a disaster. we went to the country and the parents started. go to look closely, what kind of sega that we gave him, and they found a pool table, how they cut themselves in it. this is absolutely true. i generally forgot that i have a sega and went to friends to play in another village, because everything is mine sorry, but if we started talking about the first games, well,

the console or computer, then the first game, what was the first game here, which i remember or which are hearts, so i had the first game. she it was called eagle nest and it was a hardcore game with no saves. i mean, you started it. and until you were killed, you continued, but as soon as you died, you had to start all over again, therefore, when in due time, then already, and left diablo and then diablo ii appeared a hardcore mode for everyone. it was amazing. and for me it was completely normal. i mean, like , yeah, not bad not bad, because, well, i'm so unlucky. and my friends had a simpler 286 computer. do you remember there were more miracles, i didn’t know that there were other games first i saw field of wonders then simcity first. wow, then kings. bounty first. these are just games that i still consider to be masterpieces rather quickly. i discovered football for myself and that's it. i was sucked into the first fifa that i had this fifa 97 and there was

one very cool thing, and then they removed it from the game and, probably, for 25 years, it didn’t exist at all. there you could play not only on the big field on the lawn, but also in the hall uh-huh but you couldn't choose that. it was necessary to click on the match and randomly determined whether or not there will be a hall. i could sit for an hour or two just poke to play in the hall. that's all, that's all fifa well fifan. she stayed like that. and yet, once we have a podcast complex, the console is a computer or a console, then? where? where to go? what to do? well , we can see how it was historically in eh uh, it started. with the help of the massive dandy invasion , dandy squeezed out almost everything else, but the fact is that i really didn’t have computers, but they were used at work and computer games. uh, survived by after work, the employees stayed there to play, i don’t know, the same wolfenstein 3d or

something else. but then such an entity as computer clubs appeared. and there , uh, it was already possible to come, and, in general , play for inexpensively, and you used not only a supercomputer. well, right at times, but you also got access to such a thing as the internet, it was generally a fairy tale. well, that is , i, for example, remember for myself the first feeling when i was on the internet talking with women there, but from brazil. i'm like here i thought it was some kind of ridiculous prank. well, how can it continue. if we look at the statistics, gradually the computer began to come out ahead. they became cheaper more available everywhere appeared. and according to the statistics for last year, uh, about uh, probably 69 percent , uh, of the population use computers and use consoles about four times less, so now, again, if you look at the trend, uh, those masterpieces that have always

come out on the console, and the consoles were precisely tailored for the release of specific games and everyone was waiting for exclusives. only here. now, now the era of inclusiveness is starting to go away, and just as a result of the fact that computers have become more massive and the last one is the same, for example, yes, last year he retired for many e-fans. uh, by the way, i bought a console just for him, caramel yes, now, as it were, why sell? all right, let 's rewind a little bit now, because i thought we 'd started. uh, say- from the dandy console can you fly a portable? console and its developer. well, listen to this, probably, one of the most ancient, uh, incredible, this is a citizen of russia , yes, i remember, and we even at one time, when in 2004 we held the first e-sports competitions on the big site.

and then we had the cup of russia at the expocentre, went to krasnaya presnya and pazhitov had his last name, and they invited him just with us, uh, he played show-h in online tetris, we made a specialist where you can play was against each other with e- e minister of communications. so we had such a wonderful show-batch. that's all, of course. listen in general, if we look at it now, our viewers will say, damn, what kind of ufags are they sitting on? where are the mobile phones, where did the topic find the main thing, how do you like this topic? come on, let's go to the market, if you look like that. computers, well, 22-23% for money yes, somewhere around 30 percent, well, smaller consoles and 50% - these are our mobile phones. well, there is still one percent. this is esports vr everything else together. ha ha, how rude, wait for the money. you talk about money, what do you mean in terms of money? $200 billion total gaming market,

and at the same time we are talking about these seemingly small cybersports small ver what it is, just 2-3 billion, and so on there, well, a little more it would seem nonsense. actually , it's not nonsense at all. look at the growth rate there already of esports. how many times it is higher than football is not difficult to see what will be there in five years conditionally for the future. yes, so now is just a great time to invest in all this. this i support. i have been investing in this for more than twenty years . it is very very hot in advance, otherwise no one at all i believed, but now, yes, uh, really . they are simply impressive, but i want to say that , in my own time, there were computer consoles, then mobile phones appeared, and now virtual reality. i'm sure it won't stop there and it will go further. and this is an industry. in general, it attracts people with what is possible in my understanding. eh, relax, you can make friends. and you can actually learn a lot, because a person likes to play. and when he does it

with his friends. it's absolutely wonderful, on this topic always here is how to learn how to make games. how to learn something in games. i remember my students thinking, now i 'll do a quick test. well, i have a mobile phone there for a year, but, of course, it’s easy. let 's make some mobile phones. development costs tens of millions of dollars, and marketing can reach hundreds of millions of dollars for some mobile games. well, everything is apoca arena 1.4 billion dollars a year. you represent a lot of money and a huge audience. how hard it is done i agree, but i will oppose. and for example, i got interested at the time. what kind of beast is such a mobile toy, and we made our own toy in a year. it cost us about half a million rubles. and we ate this money barely recaptured, because others have already been invested in marketing. i had no interest, but to figure out how this thing works in general, but to come up with some new game

mechanics, and the game was called flipstone, and we pushed it onto both platforms. and in principle there was a large number of downloads, but we didn’t really bother with monetization. we were interesting to try. how can you feel it from the inside with your hands, so no. hey guys keep it up. this can be done both cheaply and cheerfully and even qualitatively. but to earn is a separate art of the bone. tell me about the students. you teach how to make games. yes? uh, for the last nine years, somewhere in the thirteenth year, we had an idea in the fourteenth year. we started on the basis of the higher school of economics. there is such a higher school of business a and everything is at hand with alexander ivanovich oleinik gave us the go-ahead and we are like that. yeah wow now we have games right in the state university wow, but here it’s like hse is huge and there are a lot of students and everyone is interested, and moreover, the program itself pays off, that is , we send all the money that students bring to foreign market teachers, and so on and so on . as part of the program, we made our own board game and wrote a book,

that's what i want to call games, and it turned out very cool. about 60 people twice a year we release, that is, two parallel streams and these people will then open your company. how long is the course? ah, 9 months 9 months, and you're rich how much money oh, i don't know that my students earn much more than me education with some kind of super oil now the history and the fact that public universities i emphasized not only hse x look there, yes st. petersburg state university and so on. everyone began to look into this sphere. someone said, well, as it were, about the prospects of this market, it was absolutely correct. ah, in fact, we, as federations, also participated in this project, and just in the seventeenth year, it was from the higher school economy. for the first time, we have launched esports courses. now it is also available in many universities. oh, and uh, i also gave a lecture about how our federation was created, why it was interesting at all,

here, but in fact the story is very simple . hmm, i myself was a gamer. yes, and i really liked it. eh, this world is a wonderful internet. uh, warcraft is the second one. i played appeared starkavto. we decided to create a team created a team and realized that this team lacks competition, but since they are not enough. let's hold jealousy, and then, uh, it turned out that this idea is like a virus. yes, it’s worth a person, but immerse himself, and he is infected with this idea. and then people, for example. much we decided to create a federation because it became clear that this movement will need the support of the state and moreover, in my understanding, but games and cybersports. in particular. it's a great tool for getting your point across. you feel that the games are conveying something. or maybe positive morality, maybe point of view, maybe culture, uh, of course, yes, but for starters, i would probably

like to discuss the topic of gaming essence. that 's pretty much what people think when they hear about video games in general. that is , after work, tanchiki came and yes, this is gaming. this is when you play for the sake of the game, just spend it, so the time is up to a day, and e-sports is essentially a sport, in general, in all its components, and e-sports are not built only on the fact that you train in that discipline in that kind of program, well, in which you play counter-strike dota and so on and so forth. and you also have to adhere to the correct daily routine. you have to stop being the best version of yourself in order to get better at the sport you play, that's why esports. it's not as easy and not as easy as many people think that you can play dota for 10 hours every day and you will become an international fan and win 18 million to your friends

in the gym. you know i missed the hall because he was into esports. let 's not put any traditional dispute into opposition. it is absolutely. uh, necessary in conjunction, that is, uh words in a healthy body, a healthy mind. these are not just beautiful phrases. this is an axiom. well, that is, if you look at the majority of professional cybersportsmen, uh, who are on the same internet, other things, uh, mostly guys. they have e not only fitness instructors, as in general, this is already the norm. they are seriously engaged in some direction. here's someone out there master of sports fencing, someone there is engaged in basketball. and i can say by myself, well, uh, i used to do a lot of athletics there, and i won many different prizes there in my youth. there, running at

different distances, then sports rowing. and this is what helped me. uh, when i came to esports, and it was just emerging, and there, but the ability to move oneself, the ability to concentrate, the ability. that's what gives the traditional sport. the most discipline. she categorically helps, but the main thing is even not in this physically, if a person feels bad, he cannot betray. ah, maximum results. and this sorry loss of money opportunities prospects for the audience of fans - this is a collapse. well, if we call this topic, for example, a young people. it’s clear that athletes are esportsmen, i’m already 36. i’m kind of thinking, maybe i ’m still into esports, or it’s too late, but too late, but there is, uh, a direction, for example, ah, a puzzle competitor. here, for example, is also the hearthstone. you can still play. we once had a man, in my opinion, 56 years old he was in third place,

of course, 200-250 million dollars. that is, when you say the word game, i immediately have price tags in my head. listen, well, since interest rates, and why games are so expensive, you know a terrible topic, it just breaks the heads of our players. so they come and see 3,000 rubles. for the game or some other 3.000. and now it's coming out. yes, let's say you're talking about how it will cost 10,000 rubles. these are catastrophic things. let's look at these numbers 3.000 10.000 5.000. it would seem obvious players, say the greedy developers. well, when are you already eating? well, how much can our money actually, everything is very simple let's look at the platform that fits the playstation xbox console, that is, what is not for microsoft let's see the appstore google play yes, that is google apple or even steam computer game know what commission they

are in the mouth, this minimum well took this one with 10.030%, they took a commission, then the publisher appears and says. well, you know for accessing the audience so that i can tell the players about your game. well let me with you i will take at least 50-60%, which means that from the remaining 70% we have left, and from 70 we take a person. yeah, 35% left. it would seem okay at 35%.500 left. i think it's simple, then we start watching taxes not to worry. and we need to pay taxes. yes, we work officially, all bank transactions are money transfers, but the team had to be supported for something. do you know how much it cost to develop such games. well, let's say the most expensive game in history. god bless the memory. that star wars was roughly $250 million, that is the average game tripols, they can cost 50 million and more , and in this regard, it turns out to be greedy developments,

nothing worked out perfectly. here, they have now begun to create their ethical plans. yes, they will all be lower. i think, i think that for domestic there should definitely be premium terms. can i come, just to the developers directly to get to the point that we generally somehow know each other? well , unfortunately, that doesn't really work, dear. i know the game hits very hard, including the one that went. overwatch in his time came out already there was a huge potential in russia, a lot of people wanted to play it, but it just cut off the price. i don’t know 70% of the audience there, that is, many people couldn’t because of the price. and this, of course, is a disaster. but then you need to immediately say about the fact that, in principle, the release format of video games. he, too, has changed over the past year. that is before, as it happened. here they came to the store to buy a disc version of the game and went home at the moment. there are so

many free-to-play games that survive for account of transactions within the game. yes, but this topic, which is even worse, if there is a rich person throwing money away, if there are greedy platforms, then there are greedy platforms and very greedy advertisers. let's see how much it costs. well, here is the game balls simple balls a4 yes three balls. they say that the favorite game of many people from the youngest adore too to people over 60, everything is practically with you. farms are preferred. yes, this is a farmer, so these are the simplest balls. here one player has such a parameter called cpi cospringstal cost per player, here in these balls. it happens there a dollar, two somewhere there, sometimes even more, but it depends on the regions. what is it, let's even take 1 dollar, only 1 dollar per player, on average, according to statistics, it pays a few percent there. let our game be so

cool that it pays i don’t even know five percent. so 20 times more numbers should be yes, why 20 times, because you need one paying, and bought another 20 not paying, multiply by 20 it turns out 20 bucks, it turns out you have to bring in a person at least $ 20 just to buy traffic. and now you put it on all the commissions that i listed earlier, that is, the feeling that i'm sitting remember, the meme was, where a greek actor sits in his formula. here i am trying to calculate. i realized that i am someone i must not understand, yet. whom did you go to the wallet, but there is not enough, right? channel one is launching a new project in every corner of our vast country there are innovators master engineer or designer and not only

are you going to launch your startup. do you have a ready-made production business or an advanced technology project. we came up with a miracle bearing a unique computer program or a non-standard restaurant concept. and your earthquakes will be recognized by millions of people. and we need you to make your dreams come true men. write to us write to us write to us subscribe. this is a podcast on a computer or console, and we continue before yes, when a person just bought a game, everything was simple and clear to use it, and everyone was on an equal footing, and for e-sports, this is very important now, when games start with relatively speaking in on gaming broadcast transactions. yes a a lot of people sin with the system on the basis of the results, that is, when a person, uh, buys such

a gaming habit, as if he bought a firebox of everyone to kill everything for esports. this is absolutely critical. this is not it. this is my understanding for gamein. this is critical. well, that is, i don’t know when, at one time, the browser game fight club came out there and i was still surprised. well , i thought. well, the time is now, then it will not be like this. it turns out that there are, and for some reason there are people who continue to be interested in remaining in wallet competitions. that is, who more and so on. but once again, and i am pleased with something else, that now, in general, here is the same pillbox, for example. yes, she showed that there is a possibility of intra-world transactions without affecting the balance. and you can buy yourself a look. yes, we call it how your character looks, and pay money for it to support your beloved, if you can afford it. but at the same time , this does not affect the game balance. you have a character. good games would be more such esports, only such a place. sorry, but

i've been through a lot with my fifa esports because here's the fact. unfortunately, with all its advantages. uh, this is the game that has become a game over the past few years, so because all tournaments are played in the ultimate team game mode, uh, this is the mode where you build your own team from cards. each card has its own characteristics. and each card has its own price inside the game currency, and there are loot boxes, that is, packs that you can open. these can be opened for in-game currency. can i open for like real cars something? why did they come up with loot boxes in order to earn more, because when a person plays the lottery, he obviously pays more than he would buy, of course, there is a simple mathematics of the game - this is mathematics. that's all i have about mathematics. i have now put together a narrative plot. yes, and mathematics. here's one that works well. and there is such a parameter as mathematical expectation. it allows you to calculate the cost of a box, if everything

is calculated correctly, it turns out that we are selling what the player wants to buy for a high price, then there is, you know, it's just pulling out money, yes, but on the other hand. this has another implication. that is, it began with what everything is the same ifa online, for example, yes, you could buy there, but a subscription hmm for his friend. that is, relatively speaking, one person bought a subscription for himself and paid more, let's say for 10 subscribers, and then he distributed these subscriptions to his friends and thus he could pay for quite good, of course, friends. somehow they compensated within the game currency in this way a little more controlled the black market. so a, it gave an understanding that there are people who are ready to pay for me. hmm, but on the other hand, then the evolution went further. they said, listen a. if there are people who are willing to pay for a lot, maybe we can make it so that we sell expensive things to those who are willing to pay just a little. so we will

sell me a thing, and the probability of buying it. that's what we got from the lootbox. and it's still sorry play internal demons. uh, people, when there is excitement when there is faith what the hell, today i'm definitely lucky today is my day and that's when a man, yes, if you count, then each of these uh players who did not want to pay penny by penny by penny for water, and they paid much more than they could afford allow. really scary. in fact. it is interesting to combine with statistics. that's what you 're talking about, but imagine. in almost all markets of the world, if we look at mobile casual games, three in a row hidanoobject firms in the usa germany games are in the lead casual - this is for a fairly wide audience. we divide games into hyper- casual, met-core, hard-core , hyper-eco-zole, everything is easy. everything is great. you never lose. no, resistance is a casual game, it can be difficult, it can be very difficult, but the malformations are easy

one mechanics. all clear. all clear. what makes a mitcore game lets you explore. here are the same games related to esports. they are mostly mid-core why because a person should have something to learn from? that's where the skill is manifested, yes, but hardcore you suffer suffer and suffer again i explain the threshold of entry. if so, how long does it take you to figure out what to do in this game? we moved a little with the topic of donations, and i realized that here you are, while discussing i already had time to ask. that's the worst thing now, as if our anonymous donators club is opening, because the first thing that i realized was that i had a lot of my money, i honestly threw fifa and i'm ashamed to name this figure, but i'm ready to name the biggest donat that i did in one part in fifa comes out every year. that is, there now the revelation began in

september every year a new version of fifa is released. so i made money on fifa competed on the air and unfortunately, i supported the not very good story of spawn uh, the biggest one was more than half a million rubles. here is one version. wow for a year, but not immediately not a single application. but the second thing is that i have not been playing at fifa for several years and have already moved a little away from esports, but you were talking about donations. i i realized that, in principle, i would have thrown something beautiful somewhere , my friends would have received it. this is a podcast. is it a combo console? my name is konstantin sakhnov, and my colleagues want to donate. hello, i've been missing for 3 days now. this is what he knows. well, because the truth is, in fact, this is, uh, i don’t know how it works, it’s probably really social psychology, what happens to a person in life. here in life we ​​want to buy some beautiful thing that will, uh, attract attention

others, it turns out, they all seem to run the same way. and you have a golden hat. how many different versions of fifi have you bought, but played at least the ninety-seventh of all the parts that came out, that is, roughly speaking, came out every year. we can now the last 23. yeah, plus, there was also a special edition , such as the world championship of the european championship, that is, there are still games, six to eight. well, that is , all of you paid attention to the announcements of the twenty-third. year 20 new assassins , one there is a bunch, yes, and the metavers, it seems, as assassin. that is, i mean that a lot is going on. the trend in the remake remaster. i, too, to continue the old brands. why do you think? well , in my understanding, this is the release of another diablo there, it will not hook the audience that will not play it, but they will buy it because they bought all

the previous ones, because it is a great apple. how did the great blizzard do it many decades ago, and already this will give an additional profile. what do you think? it seems to me that at first i agree easier selling an old brand than creating a new one. well, in principle, especially very popular, and games that are re-released. these are really games that were insanely popular now , residents and four are coming out, but at that time it was not cut, but everyone played. ah, dead space just came out. dead space broke the market at one time, but there are just more consoles, because then it was, if i'm not mistaken , an exclusive for consoles, and later it came out , in my opinion, on the pc but the point is not that , the point is that and these are games in which we all that's who played them, we thought that now the playstation 5, and there 40-90 ti xbox video cameras are new. but if those games are again graphics, well, this is generally a gap. it's just mega cool and here we

are back to the money. yes, i agree with you here. just very simple. that's how much development costs. how much does marketing cost? we said to these gigantic commissions that this is all to recapture. they? naturally, when you have a game cost of not one million dollars, and there you don’t want to take risks anymore, so there are proven schemes where there really is an audience. well , in general, to be honest, there is a feeling that there are fewer cool ones. new release every year. yes? here i just remember before even there years even, probably, 5-6 ago. you open some yandex or google e, in the search waiting for the main expected games there. ugh next year. and there is just darkness, and you are scrolling through and you understand. oh, i want this , i want this, but this is what we will also play with a friend. a. well, that's where i already typed it in my head there 20 25. now i even, let's say. uh, there just a couple of days ago looked, i understand that well, well, five. well, maybe

six just got old. well, i can’t understand, i’ve grown old and my environment or the actual game has become a little different there. of course, we are all older, but the fact is that the market is changing, and the market is not changing by itself. it changes after our world, as we know the world has come to us in a completely unique phase. and it can be called differently. it is definitely interesting and will lead to colossal changes. and that's what we are now is an attempt to rebuild, because now a huge number of connections are beginning to break, and because nature does not tolerate emptiness. they appear in another place , perestroika is underway, and just at that moment no one wants to take risks, so now everyone will play on the gameva market, in my understanding, either as much as possible, or vice versa, as adventurous as possible. here's someone who's probably going to try to make something really cheap right now, so, uh, well, good luck, and it

can shoot. you see, if we look at the game mechanics that are used, they are all beaten. yes, new mechanic may appear, either with the advent of a new tool. here is the same virtual to full reality, or something fundamentally new from the point of view of the approach, but here virtual reality has already presented a lot of things to us. but, by the way, hmm, i'm young, but i still remember. it's clear. yes, there were games, but there were no mice. oh yes, there were simply no mice and played. i'm the same wolfenstein on the keyboard and played mortal kombat. yes, yes, yes, yes, and then there was a mouse. and you know, this was the feeling, when i had you, as if the wings spread out behind him. i realized that there are huge opportunities in front of me , this small simple tool allows you to do something that was previously impossible. in principle, therefore, it is quite possible that now

there will be some kind of breakthrough technological moment. let's take one more moment. uh, so, as we have, uh, the first issue, we only introduce our audience. possibly with computer games. and who it is the audience that really plays everything, there is some age. here is the one we can highlight. ah, there is the popularity of the man who plays in mostly young people. in fact , this is really a delusion, and if in russia we can talk about the average age of a dimmer , very different estimates from the higher school of economics give 36 37 years, and some polls give 31 33 years. this is due to the fact that you are 36. how is it connected that the higher school of economics and you are 36. i did not say this. i didn't confirm anything. and in the usa it's a little older, and in china it's a little younger, well, more or less all over the world there is a general trend that it's not the children who play , moreover, the most important thing is not the children who pay. we are like

developers, whatever we want, we want to earn a day. we don't want to just make free games that we pay for ourselves, so we want to make games for adults. we want to make games smarter. we want to make games with a big story, so that you yourself would be interested in making these games, as i understand it, right? well , including, that is, it is not very interesting to make simple games, as it seems to me, that is, first you do it, you did it. it's insanely hard to make a simple game much harder in my opinion. and like i said games. this uh, huge popularity, this is culture, and this is a conductor, and in my understanding now all over the world, and the state will make state orders for the creation of the right games for the youngest population. here's a look at china is the same. it has already started there. you can then say something already new media is already. stitched fact or is it the future? it's something more than media it's something more. than entertainment. this is a new kind of culture in my understanding. it's a crossroads of art culture

- it's something that wasn't there before. well sounds really ambitious. this is true, but as they say, do not put everything will lead. well, this is very interesting, and indeed, according to statistics, people now play games more than go to the cinema, for example, the pandemic has already helped us here. let's be honest 19.6% of the point for the pandemic is not experienced, growth. what's the matter this twentieth year we usually grow there, well, 8% a year here almost 20 at once. naturally, all investors broke down to give money for games. naturally, and this is gosh investors and private investors and funds. all in russia , such a number of investment funds have appeared that i have never seen exactly at the end of this twentieth year. well, okay. this is the kind of growth rate you want. put money there. why is it for us for gamers ordinary developer leaders even more vacancies more products.