these words i will sing to breathe sounds at a minimum, so as not to interfere with these clouds of purple magic of our colors so beautiful. i know better morons yes nobody. i don't remember the word was. it was . it happened. i just wanted to say that for me it was a great experience, very serious, because not every young person. maybe sing my song right? yes, i did sleep. how do you like this experience, this experience is called, if a person is a professional, he is his own , that's all. you know, my favorite show head shook blah blanc to myself about me for love for

mother for a brother, otherwise fate will bend well. very good. we kindly ask you to fulfill your choice. here is your favorite song or what the soul is singing about now. we will listen with pleasure. musicians are our friends my this was an information podcast. today our guest was igor sarukhanov anton tokarev my co-hosts karina cross. valya karnaval gypsy band and anton lavrentiev watch not formats, listen to good music.

all people, like people, woo me alone and not

married, and i'm single and not a wife. i am not a wife. and wife hello schrödinger's cat podcast i'm with you its host grigory tarasevich is the editor -in-chief of a popular science magazine with the same name schrödinger's cat, in fact, this is such a thought experiment related to complex quantum physics, in short, it is an accessible metaphor. a simple metaphor for a very complex science and our podcast is just about

how he sees the complex in the simple and the simple in the complex , and today we will talk about tv shows. and together with me svetlana karlash is a psychologist and someone else, but who i will tell later and we will talk about complex things after enough simple understandable serial container. you have watched this series. yes, and we are navy, can you see the container series as an acute social drama, but in fact, uh, there are a lot of such borderline psychological issues, but in social ones too, uh. i think that it is quite provocative not only from the point of view of the topic of surrogate motherhood, but from the point of view of broader questions of worldview, a couple of words about the plot of the series, someone has not watched it, although we recommend it to everyone. yes, no spoilers, no spoilers young woman. sasha, 28 years old, a surrogate mother

bears a child and then gives birth to him by order of some. rich people are very rich. well , further twisting rich people in difficult relationships the rich also cry. ah, the totalitarian mother. this is the heroine's young man, the heroine's daughter. well, and so on this movement as much as 2 seasons. maybe even the third will be back, after all, the series. it’s generally today that it’s here , does it seem to you that such a form of journalism is quite possible, and it seems to me that this is hmm . in addition, some more mirrors of those questions that arise in society and in this mirror they are presented in such a more grotex version, yes, that is, all, uh , storylines, all the characters are exaggerated and pointed, and, as a psychologist, some things, of course, hurt my ear and eye, because they are excessively convex. yes, it seems that

apart from this phenomenon , there are no other movements in the human psyche of this or that hero, but still, yes, our topic concerns surrogate motherhood. and maybe we'll take a little break from the series and let's move on to it. yes, in general, what is this problem with horned motherhood. this is probably a problem. and someone is nurturing about inequality, for whom it is in the series. it seems to me a lot about freedom and not freedom, about control , about order. and vice versa, well, about the conflict of the generation, because there is no longer every relationship between fathers and children everywhere problematic, you are talking now, first of all, about social phenomena. yes, but they are born from scientific and technological progress, which goes far beyond what we are used to seeing. and more recently, test-tube babies. in in principle, caused such a concern. yes, now this is not a problem, but many people do chi, but surrogate motherhood, by the way.

in many countries it is forbidden, in some it is allowed here, and yet , if you imagine it as a mass phenomenon, it can change quite a lot, and the social picture, yes, and the psychological one, too, you are hinting at some plot of the maid's stories. yes? yes, this topic was raised and the maid's story, it's just a dystopia that is right on this topic, and it's so creepy, actually, in fact, in principle, hmm e science hmm opens new horizons, but a human being is not a very healthy mentally master of his a and e, in this sense we can, of course, betray a monstrous form. if uh someone, yes, there will have access, but to the power of uh in deciding, because or otherwise. and we can , like humanity, and we can

make it out of any idea. an absolutely monstrous scenario, so they are not without fears about this. e meaning. yes, just like uh, these fears do not mean putting an end to science on progress and on some new technologies, which radically change our perception. well, in general, the phenomenon of surrogate motherhood. it's not just someone who reproduced the child, it opens up a lot of different topics. well, for example, here is the relationship of genes and the environment, what is more important genes or the environment that a person is brought up? and there is no single answer grandchildren. yes, there is a lot of data. this is wonderful. you know there on psychogenetics. well, there is, there, increased aggressiveness in humans. he will leave her, where to kill people or become an athlete. as far as the fact that the mother was some kind of the good bad will be passed on to her child. you understand that the truth is in the middle. yes, you

are voicing, two polar radical points of view, of course, neither one nor the other. neither the environment nor genetics in its purest form. and we are talking about some a set of environmental genetic factors that can lie like bones in the lord god in any order, and in this sense , of course, this is an interesting question, but it concerns not only surrogates, mothers, and even e is not so much only adopted children. after all, when you and i start a child, we give birth chigi he inherits genes. eh yes, what will get there from the grandmother? great-grandmothers? from which branch from which line? we don't really know either. although of course, here they believe. higher and calculate it is probably more faith that an adopted child with such genes, the environment, will still have a decisive influence and there will be a person in a good family. yes, maybe he will not become a world champion in running. eh, but if a family has some important ethical standards, then

these standards will reproduce yes no, but with the same set of e genetic makings. yes. uh, maybe a person, uh , different fate uh, with different social. well , for example, if we return to the series and look at how yes played or did not play the genetics of the heroes of the series. now, if you remember one of the heroes, for example, yes, for example, sasha is the main character. i think a very authoritarian mother teacher. yes , she herself is satisfied with the tough sasha and her authoritarianism, uh, isn’t she not devoid of authoritarianism? what is she genetically transmitted to her? or her mother socially brought her up like that, nobody knows, in fact, in science does not have a clear answer to this. well, it's very difficult to explore in a good way, you have to take one egg of your gemini from birth to separate them. at the same time , nadezhda was brought up in families with different social cultures, and then after 20-30 years they were there, but it was always not completely

clear. well, for example, in the middle of the 20th century. uh, wonderful and not completely wonderful american psychologists. i studied gemini and when they started to study it, firstly, a part of it was falsified, and secondly, they took the gemini from the orphanage and separated them, but they turned out to be them with a similar social status, their similarity is the use or the fact that the family is american. uh, you are already talking about the socio-cultural aspect, which also affects the formation of personality. he is also included in this series, yes genetics, well , biology is what was given initially. uh, mental psychology is what a person gets in the family and social cultural is what he gets in a broader context, but look, if we still return to the topic of surrogate surrogacy, which, uh, is the leading one of such series container. and how does this question

of genetics or environment play in the topic of human reproduction with the help of mothers, but here i see, yes, genetic material. it will still be the parent. the customer will still be the mother and father of those who want to bear this child with the help of the mother's service, but genetically he is theirs. eh, here, as a psychologist, i'm interested in a slightly different question. this is a matter of attachment, which is formed during pregnancy, and in a woman formally. the film shows a moment where the main character is in the clinic. sasha yes, they are trying to prevent the child from being discharged quickly, uh, so as not to form a maternal instinct, as if the child were taken away immediately after birth. yes, she immediately signs the application of the child does not see the maternal instinct does not wake up. well, partially, of course, if you pick him up and feed him and so on. there, the machine will be launched, oxytocin and

other psychological things, too, yes more, uh, but in general , uh, the formation of a woman's identity, like a mother begins during pregnancy, from the first three places, at each stage pregnancy, a woman is moving closer and closer to experiencing herself as a mother and at least somehow by the time of childbirth. yes , getting closer to this and this is identification. uh, already uh, to be able to integrate yourself, however, uh, in the film yes, it is shown that these things can be cut off with the help of a medical protocol, yes. there in the clinic is you escape. and i think it's not. and that emotional connection between mother and child during pregnancy. it exists is e, and e will influence in the future. here we turn to the section of perinatal psychology, dear listeners. i promised to reveal one more quality of our guest svetlana and this

quality is my wife. and can i ask you a question already no psychologist. and as a woman, how do you like the series? that's what you feel when you watch, i think the series is very. actual and on the one hand, and a wonderful actor, a deep game, all this cannot impress me a little. it seemed to me too radicalized good and evil. and you do not like it when good is clearly here, evil is clearly here. well, i'm still for the complexity of mental processes. and when the main characters uh, it works, 10 episodes in a row in one is not the main one there, one of yes and we will not be in the spoiler in the same psychological mental status, and it does not change from the series to the series, in principle, it feels like a person is flooded here in that state of mind. so he reproduces it. just in every line in every series without changing anything at all is fine. you don't know, maybe less intelligent than you, but i love it when

you can see it's a scoundrel. it's good, but, in principle, it's very much loved by everyone, because it basic settings. and such a state, when we divide the world into black and white, everything is very clear. everything is very much under control. anxiety is reduced, especially in situations. uh, stress overload, our psyche regresses to the basic settings, that is, to the enemies. that is, i am generally regressive at home, let's talk about this topic. listen and i will console you. we are aggressive all this is not bad. well, wait. now you will come again to the reflexi rope, let's keep it simple. that's what a woman feels, well, imagining herself in the place of this or that heroine, or customer, or a performer. you know, it's very difficult for me to, uh, feel myself as a performer. honestly, i'll tell you, but because , well, here, even there, a kitten or a dog. i am quite attached. eh, probably, i would not be able to do my psyche. yes, i'm so arranged. e give the child after the

place of the customer, for example, hypothetically. i could imagine, there would probably be a lot of anxiety about how the pregnancy is going and uh, if i have and will i have a relationship with a child? and uh probably, i would be very worried that e at the time of appearance. yes, my child was not two of us with my husband, but three with another woman , this is still a sacred moment, u where the couple has. eh, it's kind of a mystery. yes, there is a continuation of the fruit of love, here it turns out to be the fruit of technology, again, i am now talking without negative connotations, and i have no idea that the fruit of technology. this is bad. fu, no, but it's just a phenomenon. yes, i'm talking like phenomenology. what's another option? let's make it more complicated, increase the degree of provocation, for example, there are no father and mother genes that these people bear, and either the genes of the father and

the gene uh-huh or vice versa, when a man is something wrong with his functions attract a man, you mean the now quite popular procedure of donor eggs. who we have a fire here spermatozoa, which we even take to ourselves, in my opinion, somehow discussed. ah. how do you want me to answer, as a woman or as a psychologist, first, as a woman, so that everyone wakes up, and then as a psychologist, so that everyone calms down. and probably, i would be very scared, as a woman, and i would most likely hmm but would fantasize uh, all sorts of disturbing things about uh, scenarios for this kid. and i probably would rather decide on donor flowers. uh, and i think that as a woman, i would have the strength to deal with this anxiety.

ah, but i have questions in this place, to which i have no answer either as a woman or as a psychologist . aha but still it will turn out because of other alien genes. a foreign child or your own child. well, listen, i don’t have dog genes, and our dog will completely devour me compared to not actually not quite joking now, because in addition to genes there is also, uh, a phenomenon described by john balbey and not only by him, but a psychological attachment that is formed between a mother and a child. the point here is that it is an attachment. it is formed on both sides, not only women or men's parents conditionally , yes, it is attached to the object, but also, uh, the child is a dog, a kitten, native or not native, he is also attached in response, and such a two-way connection. she's strong enough and i don't know if she's less or more powerful than genetic, maybe more. well, in fact, this topic is revealed in the series, maybe

even more than. all of us from horned motherhood are like a teenager, anya becomes attached, then, supposedly to her sister, but in fact to her mother, then to one friend, then to another, and that teenager is looking for an adult. this is also a metaphor. actually the child of the searching parent. yes, but ah. i want. uh , you know, remember also that we are talking about technological breakthrough a and about the series, which reflects new technologies that can radically change society, the basic thing in childbearing society. but, uh, the idea of ​​surrogate motherhood did not appear yesterday, and not even in the last century. no, more biblical stories, the wife did not give birth to a slave. yes, a slave gave birth, well, in indian society, by the way, ancient it was quite such a case is described in the bible, there is this story, but in principle, it was not uncommon. this is not only a single, biblical, story

there, but in ancient rome, a husband could. uh, somewhere to sell your own young wife for a while, and so that she can bear someone's child for a fee. yes, she returned home. this it was like working. that is, it, uh, looked like an act, again, well, trading in a certain sense in the human body and as an act of great love and, uh, sacrifice, when a woman, uh, a friend’s sister or just another unfamiliar woman, and the victim was herself for her motherhood. well, there are not only victims, there they don’t particularly ask slavery how the maid’s story is actually in the series, but here it’s important to understand that from the point of view, that of antiquity , that of the middle ages their such local genetics, uh, concentrated on the father’s dna, then there is paternal dna well, defining yes, it can be basta if it is illegal, but in general, if the fallen one offered his genes. so you got along with this dna property

titles, castles, peasants, they believe there is an economic background. uh, actually, it is missing so it is now. for the last time, where is my brother? listen. i 'll take you out of a man's two kidneys. you don't need two kidneys.

with you, a podcast from schrödinger and i am its host grigory tarasevich, editor-in-chief of the popular science magazine schrödinger code and in away. we have svetlana karlash psychologist, psychotherapist. well, and my wife. well, and most importantly, during the preparation of this podcast , not a single kotik was injured, we probably continue. now about the owners of services. that was clear in your middle ages of your antiquity. here is the slave owner. there is his slave, there are servants working there, now it is more and more difficult. that's who the servant is, who's the master, let's say, when i go to the doctor. he is not my servant. rather, on the contrary, he is now leading high. although he does not provide a service, i also pay

a salary there to the butler of the maid, if i i had butler maids, i call the plumber. he seems to be lower in social class, but you can’t look at the plumber. they go far away in a good car, which you and i never dreamed of. this is a person who provides a service, listening and the truth is, uh, there was such orthodoxy in society, yes, the division that was orthodox and uh, clearly defined in the past, and how it fell off. well, in fact , now it hasn’t fallen off in any way, our human nature, built on the dominant. and on the hierarchy of plumbing, a you are dominant, as they were, so they are. thank you thank you and a question. who has more raspberry ass, it remains relevant. and what then what now, yes, society, the social pattern of society is changing, but crimson assholes are a priority

, and in this sense it is still somehow necessary to dominate even if there are no slaves and the lord and there are different social ones, you say different social status. yes? there are different financial status. and again, yes, we define this inequality. as you say serves or does not serve. uh, well, in this case, more crimson ass for someone who has a lot of money, but you can also draw this more crimson ass. a completely different character, for example, make a dominant surrogate mother. ah, well , it’s very simple a woman who can’t give birth herself , she, i’m talking about anti-uto- within the framework of anti-utopia, such uh, anti, humane. things as a thought experiment so that no one, uh, viewer is hurt. uh, you mean hurt feelings? ah, for example, yes , a woman who cannot give birth, she socially hierarchically lower, which, by the way, does not contradict the evolution of biology, because a monkey that cannot give birth

in a hierarchical society, monkeys occupy lower positions, has, uh, fewer bananas and nuts and, accordingly, they beat her much more often eat some on the corner they're in the warm place as soon as she gives birth to her. uh, social growth is in front of our eyes, and this is profitable and the more she gives birth, the more high-ranked male, the higher she rises. yes, imagine a woman who cuts my mother, this is also woman. this is a woman who can give birth, especially in our society , in which, uh, infertility is constantly increasing and the numbers that indicate infertile couples, uh, at every conference at every symposium , listeners are simply amazing, and in this sense, a surrogate mother is in -first, a high -class expert is, uh, an astronaut, in fact, in childbearing, who delivers a child to a couple even then. uh, if we have a dominant, a crimson ass built differently, we

shift it. from one place to another we have a high-ranking navigator and low-ranking uh, lying at his feet, trying to get everyone's attention with money or something , or real lines of women who, due to the fact that they are fruitlessly in a lower specialty. it seems to me that it is possible to invent a whole plot in a beautifully dystopian way. it seems to me that we did it for the creators of the series. i just showed you now that the issue of inequality is solved by where the dominant is. and the dominant can be placed virtually anywhere, but look, we still have it. is such a utopia less realistic than the reverse? why prestigious places, for example, in science are often lost by women, having equal starts due to the fact that they left to give birth, but in our country, the truth is that society is mostly patriarchal and there really is complete equality in high positions, such as science and some kind of managerial, well, there is no truly complete

equality. it's true, after all , the young karl marx wakes up in me. isn't there exploitation in this? well , there is a question, there is a divided degree, and i think that this is also connected with the fact that yes, there is, a certain task and roles for men and women and uh, we have uh historical point of view. just yesterday , the discourse began that a woman has equal rights. uh, man and an equal partner for a man, and not his servants, a uterus on legs, and so on. that is, in this sense consoled, and in this sense there is quite such an unambiguous. the point of view, which is held by representatives of the feminist movement of the third wave , that surrogate motherhood is unacceptable, in principle, just from the point of view of the objectification and use of the female body for such a utilitarian use. yes ah and in in this regard, yes, this is the role from which a woman cannot get out for centuries

, including, because inside her, too , is integrated e, these stories are about the fact that she did not give birth defectively. yes, you will not give birth there , they will throw you out of marriage from the city and family from life in general from anything. she, of course, can provoke the acquisition of a child at any cost and the offer of such a service, as usual, because, if there is a demand to obtain a child, yes, then there will be an offer, and women who are in difficult life situations, and in this sense. yes, i have another line of relations in society. e. only in surrogate motherhood is actually like prostitution, as in the trade of love in people and the trade in one's own body. and when the body is literally rented out, even the name of the series is a container. yes, it reflects. in a sense, this point of view, that some complex is simply sitting, the mother is screaming to the heroine, you are a prostitute. you are a whore. here, how do you

respond? this is what to answer such a mother. well, in this sense, the mother wants to support by the throat, generally fine. this is a heroine game. it's just, uh, beyond praise, because you want to, uh, start fighting her for a moment, and she plays great. yes, but still you want to ask me what i think, i'm prostitution - is it or not? no, i do not think that this is prostitution, but i think that this is a very difficult episode for a woman. and well , contempt and some kind of disobedience of these women, but in other countries commercial surrogacy for money is prohibited. well, you can almost for free when it's service, yes, service to the victim. it seems to me that it only makes sense. i'm sorry but i today it's getting off the abstruse just meaning, which is interrupting the meaning of procreation. it can help to leave the intact psyche to the same surrogate mother. that is, if she

believes in her ministry, and it is more valuable to her than the function of childbearing. actually, where she wore it forcibly gave birth, and here is the meaning that came out. he can help her survive. eventually. yes, she didn’t just , uh, she passed, she gave away the torment. well, i got the money. and what is she wearing the great, and this is generally normal, you know, there is a concept. uh, social sex is now emerging in some countries. what social is it? how is it when it's uh, fine line. yes, it does not count, prostitution, when people who cannot get sex, for example, are there, and people with disabilities or people who face a number of difficulties cannot find a partner and miss it are not necessarily disabled. they can seek consolation in such uh, without uh disinterested u sex workers, who are not for money, but in order to console, hug, stay and return

to a person the human dignity associated having sex have sex with them. well, such a treatment of the soul through the body. speaking with pathos, well, in fact, in my opinion, there is a story for a woman when the first world war and a young, almost noblewoman, girl gets into the hospital as a nurse and kicks him out because he had sex with a wounded man and i explain to the doctor. even if in his place there was the most scruffy, most vile man, i would still give myself up, because they returned from the front. they are wounded, they can die at any moment, but here you are, in fact, not alone, really. there is such a form of service, true well , look how we are talking about extreme points, if there are middle points, well, first of all, let's not reduce everything to women's ministry. i remember classical literature , one episode of the strugatsky era came to my mind.

about a handsome young officer who returned from the front in orders, uh, black-haired, broad-shouldered, and he was always seen in the company of very dubious ugly people, they often asked young women and friends under a glass, what are you, you are an enviable groom, especially when there are few men. he says i spend with them for some time, to be some kind of male joy, they had, because no one will find a peasant for himself after the war. here the man turns himself into objects. this is normal too, but he forgives himself in grisha's object, but, and this object is illuminated with meaning for him, anything, somewhere you will find a higher meaning will work. it seems to me that there are such acute topics as surrogate motherhood and co., there is a social section and other things in general , these ones that are on the verge. yes, on the one hand they break very strongly. cultural and historical context that has evolved over the centuries. sorry, yes, on the other hand, these facts have been in history for centuries too. yes, we are standing on a very thin line. i think it's

about like a big kitchen knife, but you can not cut meat, but you can slaughter a person. ah, energy, well, in general, yes. here, probably, the question is not about the phenomenon. e most surrogate motherhood. and about how we use it in private history or in social history in general, because here you are, after all , today in the role of such a boring lecturer. yes , everything is different at home, dear listeners. at us the opposite. in general, i'm the smartest . she's a fool there, but borscht well, it doesn't matter in different ways, but still, if this story went through our lives, how would we razrulili it. here are the heroes of the complete ass. sorry for the existential crisis, of course, responsibility. here, exactly. eh, how would you and i choose here. and depending on what scenario we have, you mean eko e that it was in reverse motherhood, because we will give marina i, fantasize about

what i would tell the child everything and maintain relationships. no, surrogate matter, i fantasize that if we were lucky, a surrogate mother would turn out to be a fairly adequate person. she would be in a sense, kindred, which would be in the skin in the family, and i would be out of jealousy, she would not have been especially plucked by hearing. and i know that skeletons are like a psychologist. yes, i know there are skeletons in the closet. oh, and such complicated stories. they have very uh, big consequences for the family system as a whole and for the fate of a particular person. in particular. i have seen such things many times. i could turn off my psychologist, on the contrary turn on a psychologist, turning off a jealous mother. uh, you know, uh, theoretically, yes, but practically. i understand that here a lot depends on whether we could get along with her, yes, like two people. well, here i'm not the only one building contact, let's say i could, maybe she couldn't. well, by the way,

another variant of the situation with two mothers, the so-called mitochondrial mothers, has now appeared. let me remind you that we have genes in the nucleus and a little bit of genes are in the mitochondria of our cells and some hereditary diseases are associated specifically with the mitochondria. and scientists, and not in america. although the couple is american, but the americans did not allow it, in my opinion, in mexico they still have a clinic, in my opinion, some kind of clinic has not been opened. they made a child who has the genes of one woman in the core, well, of course along with the genes of men, and the mitochondria, the gene of another woman, and the concept of mitochondrial appeared a little in parallel with the mother. there is also a nuclear one, yes, but in fact, if it already seems to me, you get involved in something or something more complex. e technology. if to decide on this, then, it seems to me, it is necessary to accept the consequences, they try to

cut them off and throw them out the window. and this is my opinion. like a psychologist. first of all. yes, as a person, too. after all, you and i also had the experience of trying, but getting a child. there is a time of strength through the clinic. unfortunately, both experiences were crowned. success. yes, but at some point we decided not to try again. come on, my position, if you want my opinion, that, of course, genes are wonderful, but it is so important how a person grows, with whom he grows. and this is the obsession with genes. we are through. it's not clear and there is an episode in the series a little spoiler a little bit at all, when one of the heroines finds out that her sister. actually her mother. uh-huh and the girl is in shock the girl is in a panic. so i was sure that girls would have a completely different reaction at 14 years old. i still have brains. and that's what his reaction would be was the sister became. mom,

what's the difference? we lived together , lived together, understood each other, and it often happens that a child lives with an aunt, they understand each other better than flushing. they are better understand, look, i wanted to finish what and we stopped, in part, because these technologies. eh, how would they be prog. no matter how much they give hope, it 's true, they are progressive. hope and they are, well, quite costly for health, and at some point. uh, if a woman uses a couple, a man together with a woman makes this decision with what technologies? ah, at some point , there comes a line beyond which, uh, it's too expensive in terms of health, waiting for some kind of mental cost. a and that's about what are you talking about the influence of the environment. i'm using the possibilities of adopted children here. well, and i,

therefore, am not afraid of foster children. i'm ready for this, because of course i believe in genetics. in a sense, but in general, i understand that the influence of light is much stronger and in the end igor considers uh me his father. although how old he was when we met nine, in my opinion, eight eight, that is, he is biologically. the son of another man of another man and you, but at the same time he has my habits, my gestures. i think the name mika is partially in my political views my views on life and then we uh, all of us come with you. eventually. yes, to the fact that i already said 3 m earlier about the fact that the formation of attachment, and not just environmental ones. ah, the factors. yes, but in principle, the formation of attachment often determines, including the psychological status of a person, and including this genetic connection, mine is not mine, when i look at the facial features, they are not mine. yes

, but something comes to me through attachment. that is, i make mine, and then we have facial features start to change in your direction. agree. you gorev look like me. yes? i think that if we decide to ever adopt a child, he will be like us. i'm sure of that too, even if it's genetic, and if it 's stopped, it won't genetically have anything to do with it. it seems to me that genetics will always win with you. no, the task of fighting people is genetics. i would rather unite. this is good. it seems to me that on this note it's time to end our prompt, let me remind you. this is a schlötdinger code podcast hosted by gregory russia hiv popular science journalist. the chief editor of kotodinger's magazine and our today's guest svetlana karlovich is a psychologist, psychotherapist and my wife.

hello this is a must- read podcast we talk about literature of interesting people with interesting people. today my guest is vladislav and troshenko. writer screenwriter and author of a book about the playwright. there is no dry mare about him. we'll talk today vlad many have heard about the play krichinsky's wedding, in fact, sukhovo kobylin alexander vasilievich is the author of the trilogy. uh, plays the wedding of the krichinsky case and the death of tarelkin. well, and here is the first play and, probably, the most popular and successful - this is the krichinsky wedding. it is still staged, but few people know that it was written in prison. why was the author in jail? tell me the most famous, probably the play of the russian theater, there were three trump cards. this is woe from the wit

of the inspector general and the wedding screams. e, which was always brought to all theaters, was always made at the box office and krichinsky's wedding. uh, it premiered in 1855 at the maly theater in november, it was really written in prison. uh, at, uh, the resurrection gate, she is a bail for noble officers in a prison cell. uh, because 5 years before this event in 1850, again on november 7.08 , the mistress of alexander vasilyevich, a dry mare, louise simon demanche, a frenchwoman, disappeared again. yes, which came to him evaporation. they've lived in the world together for uh, 8 years in a kind of, well, illegitimate relationship. uh, and now, uh, different relationships were very serious , they had a relationship and she, he would be madly in

love with her, but alexander vasya sukhova mare was a very handsome person. he's demonic he had power over women, and besides this frenchwoman, he had a lot of mistresses in moscow, uh, louise endured all this for a very long time. yes, it endured everything until they appeared. he has a new passion. eh, such nadezhda ivanovnaryshkina, innate to noring. uh, the woman was not a nymphomaniac at all. i read memoirs they are and french russians. it just was and she fell madly in love with alexander vasilyevich began. here, uh, so to speak, a pick of reality. yes, such a female duel, the real one, and then suddenly she disappears. uh, two days later. uh, they find her brutally murdered with her throat slit and wrapped in a scythe. yes, it's terrible , because she was proudly beaten,

indeed, as her throat was wrapped up, which set the bleeding, but most importantly, when the corpse was raised behind presnenskaya zastava. he was thrown out on the street. just somewhere in the snow, but on the side of a small road and most importantly, so the version of the robbery by cab drivers was immediately ruled out, because it was found in jewelry, yes, and just there for a whole the state was there diamond rings, sapphire emerald earrings and a frenchwoman simonavli lived on her leg. yes, she was serving for her rented apartments in the house of count gudovich. it's right next to the house. he survived. by the way , this house is right next to the governor general's house. this is bryusov lane. uh, now that's what the pluses of moscow are called servants of diamonds. yes, she had a yard cook, that's all. and uh, not only the version of the robbery was ruled out, but also the version of rape, because there was

evidence and uh, of course, suspicion immediately fell, but alexander vasilyevich's sukhauk epic, and they came to him in the friegel, uh, with a search, and soon. after the frenchwoman's body was discovered, this search took place and bloodstains were found in his wing. moreover, some of the plasters washed out were there on the plinth cleaning, so to speak, after cleaning, and alexander vasilyevich from him. e, of course, was immediately arrested, along with his chamberlain, was arrested during interrogation, when they began to ask him questions about these fifth works. he said it's not like that absurd about the fact that here is a chamber gamer, maybe there was splashed wear and tear blood flowing energy bleeding from the nose by a sudden coincidence. and vlad let's talk separately. actually, who was alexander vasilievich sukhova kobylin. what place he occupied in society, because it seems to me that

this is important, perhaps he felt unpunished. before this situation, and can be very free, because he is the godson of emperor alexander i, a very rich man. hey landowner. well, brilliantly, educated with a huge fortune and a huge influence in society. we can say that, this is very important. this is very important, because this, uh, you have to imagine. yes, whoever is arrested is arrested e person, that is, there were e six names of the most noble e of the russian nobility. this is, uh, kolycheva, yakovlevs. e, babarykin and sheremetyevo romanova and sukhovo mare, this is the honor of the most just at the top of the pyramid of you nobility. well, dryly were fantastically rich. this is an estate in the five-hills of the russian empire, that is, by modern standards. i was just an oligarch but at the same time, it is also a very important point for its characterization, so it is important for me that we touch on this. yes, uh, because uh is on the one

hand. such an educated brilliant uh, european educated person who was familiar with gogol. there he fenced, which means with the leftist nikolaevich tolstoy and, at the same time, at the same time. eh, of course, uh, he had e not without it. here is such despotism. he was a man with a very strong character and a very cruel need for these peasants, as far as i understand, and with his own hands somehow they said he was from his own hands, and barin weaved from own. yes, yes, of course, and yes , everyone was talking about him. eh, contemporaries, that the servants trembled before him and were afraid. why are you such a degree? that there i read the memoirs of his maid, that she once went into his office and there was a portrait painted by tropin's artist, and she fainted when she saw him with fear, because they think a fool. she went into the office when he was there, it just

came in at the wrong time, yes, these are his characteristics. and this person must be imagined arrests, and he, uh, it must be said that here is the governor general. e of moscow, the military governor-general arseniy andreevich zakrevsky, of course, he hated him, because he was the only person. in moscow , who allowed himself. uh, joking about arseniy andreevich zakrevsky here. i wanted to ask you, but this is the frenchwoman simon divanche. why are they so caught up in this ? why did we carry with her, i understand the brutal murders, but on the other hand, we understand that, probably, in the 19th century in russia, this could get away with influential person. is not the case. it could even come to naught quietly, because a person. eh, yes, such a person was taken. uh, got arrested. immediately , all connections were put into play, of course, and the money was dryly used for bribes for their own business. yes, therefore, the case that he was a huge bribe there was a question. well, less so. pledged in

the board of trustees, uh, and uh, paid bribes, but uh , french, it was a magistrate. she was just such a partner. yes, now there was a designer in modern times, but she was i must say that the girl is of rather high quality in terms of moral qualities. she didn't. it's just that such a kept woman, yes, which the guy bought himself, is not there. she was, uh, quite delicate. and when she came to moscow to alexander vasilyevich yes, they are in paris they just fit. they immediately wanted to earn their money there, to come to him with money. petersburg, where he did not succeed with these hats. there, it means trading and so on. here she is, uh, in general, in the family of dry epic played very important role. she handled their business ventures. they had champagne

snakes cared for there. yes, yes, groceries are many, many, many , they had everything. she was engaged in non-clay were shops. and here she is there, which means that these stores were supervised. well, or how everything was the manager of these stores, but uh the fact is that why, uh, why this business was not, it’s immediately closed in the bud, because uh, there were uh, it ’s not easy to quarrel with all the influential people in moscow, namely with officials former officials arseniy andrey zakrevsky governor-general of moscow, the military governor-general of moscow , had in his hands blank forms signed by the sovereign and with the permission of the sovereign emperor nicholas to enter into these forms whatever he deems. well, the tsar was afraid of the revolution, so he put in moscow just such a cerberus simply, which arseniy zakrevsky really kept in his fist. everything in moscow was intertwined in front of him and they were only dry, but this is how he was yes, he

allowed himself a daring joke, but about do arseny andreevich and moreover, to joke on a very painful topic with arseny andreevich zakrevsky, his wife was the great -aunt of leo nikolayevich tolstoy, agrofin fedorovna fat forgotten zakrevskaya, but it was such a moscow missolina, and in the english club he allowed himself to joke very impudently and call him crowned cuckold. well, of course, all this was reported to zakrevsky ; i had such a special green book. of course, there was a green book. he wrote everything down there and when this all happened. here imagine. yes, and suddenly the governor-general comes with a report, the opera polis together in moscow and says, so and so they found it, which means that she was a subject of france brutally murdered. uh, here are the strange circumstances of the circumstances. and they find out what and how africa or dry milk was for blood, and, of course, the governor-general of moscow immediately

takes this investigation under his own control, as they say now. it’s just that he appoints such a secret investigation and, of course, dry mares, but he is threatened with hard labor for 20 years, 20 he ends up in prison. yes, he gets more. let's let's say that he did not write anything before this event, that is, his literary talent woke up already in prison. after all those events, however, absolutely sukhovo mare. i think that if not for all these events, as he said, a terrible turning point in his life had come to pass. if not for all this then, most likely, no writer would have come out of him. it was by weight. he played the player, don juan played. and so, in the village, the patrimonials won the village at the card, a backwater. there, then, at count anton's next door. so, here, that is, it was a man who in in general, he would not have made literature out of him. and here he is, it turns out to be a great grief and yes, yes, they made him look, maybe

in the depths of himself. and to find something there is actually a tragedy, yes, a turning point in his life, and this turning point e he made a completely different person out of him, of course, when he was arrested and the first few days. he was terrified, he wrote. they put him against the wall with thieves with immoral mob. that is, they didn’t just put him in jail, he was humiliated , in fact, he was put in jail. now, uh, back then it was called the secret cop room part. and now it's called space, but uh , it's happening. here is what some time after alexander is in prison, those serfs who were in the servants of simonem suddenly confess to the murder. dimash is the cook kucher and two maids. so they say that we killed her, because his lawsuit was so evil. she also beat us, just like barin lay on the master bar for us , he also punished us for this, and so they decided

to take her out with the light and they, uh, gave evidence of how they did they supposedly went to her at night in bedroom. here in her apartment. first they beat her and strangled her, then the cook and the coachman took her out of the presnenskaya outpost. well, it's you who tells their version of which their version is yes, yes, and then after they thought she was wheezing. they figured she'd, uh, come to life. suddenly they cut their throats, but you understand this version, here, yes, it is implausible, exactly why? because, first of all, he had two dogs in her bedroom. these are the kind of king charlie dogs that would just bark there. it would be noise, she would resist, but at the very the main thing, of course. most. the main thing is that this version destroys. uh, she was found with severed arteries. yes, there is a lot of blood. that's a lot of blood. and when they lifted the body, there were a few drops of blood, the whole dress was covered in blood, it didn’t come out of the snow

when somewhere else in another place. in another place, it was e that the minister of justice count panin, insisted on this, that this is it, as if to refute the version of the serfs, but the serfs confessed and were dryly released from prison for a while, and then, when it came to before trial the serfs refused these testimonies and said that they beat out these testimonies from us with force and forced them there, well, they actually tortured us. so here is the bailiff sterling. here they were hung up there for spending the night, they were beaten in the kidneys there, that is, they simply knocked out testimonies and when the serfs refused to refuse dry, damn it, again became the main suspect in the murder. and then he ended up in prison already, when a new investigation was appointed. and in prison, uh, he writes. that is, of course, it's incredible, can you imagine, here he is in prison. here he is threatened with 20 years behind the scenes

the evidence is all against him. here he sits writing a comedy good afternoon madam. albert first floor to the left. well, i came to talk no, positively in the back seat. she fired three balls already, right? help me change simple, i'm the chauffeur of all good things. to get joint custody, i need a job. you have the compositions of all the perfumes, because i created them, they offered her a fortune to create it will help me, than i will help on

saturday on the first this is a must-read podcast. i am aglaya on batnikova, director writer, visiting me vladislav atroshenko. writer, screenwriter, connoisseur of the mysterious case of the playwright alexander sukhoi kobylin, what was the main thing for you in this topic, what fascinated you, because you wrote the script and studied the book, this huge matter. tell me, what drove you to waste so many years. uh, energy for that. you. you know what i still do. uh, that's it, how it's my lifelong torment. it's his fate that haunts me, because here is this simple

pushkin question. is genius compatible with villainy? yes he is, here there is no other such fate. e, for example, only characteristic, yes, and so much characteristic on the example, which can put this question. that's what is called a rib. yes, a man writes a brilliant play that simply turns the history of the russian theater in general. yes, and at the same time, he is a suspect in the murder, this is the question. eh, he haunts me and the fate of the dry mare. she, uh, makes it possible to figure it out. why is this the case? left undiscovered? why did this question become? yes? here, let's open the case. that would be no problem. there would be no question here stood, that is, they would have established, for example, e he does not know on the one hand, e did not have, as it were , such scientific means when the blood was found. uh, zakrevsky immediately sent it to the medical office of the police to do a dna test today.

yes, yes, not even today. if it were a little later, there in 15 years, for example, all this could already be done there , at least those questions that were asked. eh, zakrevskie medic is human blood or not? and what time does it now belong to the dryer were there said, what did the chains cut there? in general, the cook carried the clutch. well, in general, he was a lot up to the point that he was staying with him, so his aunt is zhukova’s adviser, and her uh, her daughter could have regula and now they got dirty. they are somehow there something. forgive me, lord, well, that is, uh, like the minister of justice count panin, when he read all this, he said that it does not deserve any probability, but on the one hand, uh, it was impossible to reveal u by scientific means. so to establish the truth. on the other hand , these officials they made out of this case such balancing act suited them very well, as

she said a double-edged and swinging affair. here they are mutually sharp rocking and on the one hand. it was possible to turn against barin and against the peasants. well, it’s not interesting against the peasants, what can you take them. yes and this is the richest man in russia, and they took from him and not just took, they simply poisoned him. here is the money and well, i want to say that all three plays are devoted to this, let's say , theft and arbitrariness of officials, and uh, he has uh in the play. uh, detailed a description of the types of bribes, that is, the person understood the survey rural bribe, which is given in kind. yes industrial bribe. this is what is called rollback today. this is when you receive some order and thank you. eh, in general, you roll back. yes, and a bribe is criminal or trap. that is, it is a trap, and she is taken naked. that is, this man

destroys simply and how he is like him, then a hero. eh, krichinsky, he says they want to take a bribe from you. give uh, the consequences of your refusal will be cruel want, dear money dykes, because otherwise you will, of course, well, dry mares. well, you see. eh, that's interesting, then, eh. e was such, uh, in fact, the case of the dry-mare in st. petersburg was engaged in, the chief prosecutor of the ruling senate of kostornenko doctors lebedev . and then such a moment came, decisive, when lebedev was preparing a resolution on the case about this. uh, the murder of simon dimanovich. the same resolution that the minister of justice should have read in senate. yes, and he studied the whole thing, but rumors. and they were, being at that time on e, a subscription not to leave, he was temporarily released from prison on the guarantee of his mother. eh, so he goes to

petersburg having already agreed in advance with the people there that nikiforovich's kostorge does not go empty-handed. well, of course, he mortgages the estate, takes the tickets of the board of trustees, it was such a small piece of paper on thin wiped paper. here and on this piece of paper the entire estate was transferred to the bearer. in fact, this is a piece of paper by the owners or you can just get cash, yes 10.000 rub. silver. this is 30,000 for 17. and the chest is a state. generally. yes, this is the price of the emperor near moscow, approximately the moscow region. yes, such an average estate near moscow and dry epics goes to kostroma, ferovich lebedev, and here it happens. here, as a matter of fact, is the scene which became central in the play. she was actually written from nature, there were dry kobes. so, uh, comes to supporters. turn on lebedev and, uh, he shows him what the minister's resolution will look like. he beats everything there, so

all cards, what is called everything everyone promises to solve the issue absolutely. yes, that is, the resolution is such that sukhovo mares will simply be released from criminal prosecution. and e. well, it’s necessary, it means that only he is given this ticket of the guardianship council to thank him, he puts it in his vest pocket and his brother-in-law was dry. e petrov with he says, sasha come on, he says, after all, let's look into the closet of written cases in a jumbled way, and see what the resolution will really be. the devil only knows these officials. yes , and indeed they look into the closet there is some small bribe there 10 rubles. e cook. why does he show that everything is being implemented in the opposite way, that is, he is threatened with hard labor, just according to this resolution, and take a bribe from a person. yes, promise him to solve the case and at the same time to the authorities, on the contrary. that’s the most trembling yes, right. why, in order to receive a cross or an award later, that i caught a terrible one there, because count panin

minister of justice he was completely convinced of the convinced guilt of a dry mare on and when he instructed lebedev to prepare a resolution did he get to prepare a certain resolution, where he will act as an accuser? uh, of course, the reason. a and. well, he decided like that's the bosses. he made a bribe and took it, which means that i got it and got the money. well, just well done, more than a dry filly. yes, i saw it all. he breaks into his office and says, you scoundrel scoundrel, so, uh, you took money from me as a bribe. i'm going to yell at the whole department now. what a department, she is robbing the whole of russia here. i gave you a bribe , they will search your place. now they will find all this. well brutal disposition, yes, that is, it was anger. it was so fierce, that is, she generally swept everything away. on his maternal side , there were tatar khans in his family, and he had one. well,

that is, on the one hand. from the greek , on the other hand, the tatar hannah was such a powerful datura, and he screams, this is the prosecutor and what he does, he takes this ticket out of his vest pocket and puts it in his mouth. chew and drink a glass of water.

protur and he has an entry in his diaries about gogol, e, says that i read these dead souls. well, here it is, all these clickers writers, they do not know our management. they do not know everything, how we are arranged. something there is written so dismissively. google i wrote. well, uh, i write in my book that but another breeder appeared, as he called them the password, who found out everything how it is going on with you. how do you take a bribe? as you know, brilliant from the inside, it's all just described and you know, i laughed yes, tears, here, i don't know the play, the old one would turn out, yes, what a huge gap, but no, and the language is very

alive and all. it's clear. everything is recognizable and insanely funny. when i read these songs, i understood why you were so in love with him and women, because he knew how to make them laugh on the one hand and the dryness was permission to make them laugh, on the other hand. now, if you knew now, there was one piece of evidence. there was one piece of evidence against a dry mare, probably completely ridiculous and funny, but the fact that she was ridiculously funny became known many, many years later. so you mentioned how he charmed a woman. he didn't just charm them. that's when drywall were on came to he was sued by tsarev there, yes, here he had all his letters taken from the table. yes, and there was one letter addressed to louise or forget victims. actually, the letter was in french. e there was literally the following. he writes to her. she went to ostankino and was naughty for some reason, she didn’t want to come to moscow, and he writes to her. eh, that means . stop your farces and i call

an ungrateful and oath criminal woman. at the distance of my bone dagger. come back and tre-tremble. he doesn't write with a lot. e, so, here and e, expressed in love letters. as i understand it, before the race took place, and here is the researcher troitsky e , he also read the materials, he writes, as far as i understand, the french language. i realized that this is a very important threatening note. it means to pierce her with a cashier's dagger, they take the note, the daggers are found from him, and uh, minister of justice count panin quotes this note in the senate. so, he says, look, he wanted to pierce her with his castilian dagger, but the fact is that they had such lovers. special, it means that such erotic symbols of expression are still 8 years of relationship, of course, they had their own special language and louise hmm herself called it.

uh, how later alexander vasilyevich told this to his neighbor reminsky. all this says. this is what she called the organs of male dignity called the cosmic dagger. and when you know all this, when the minister of justice zachi. that's it in the senate, of course, it's just been some fantastic ambiguity. well, uh, uh , they took a bunch of notes from different women on alexander vasilyevich’s desk. from different families. there uh, from 16 men. you are so hateful. uh, there's more, uh, what moment? of course, this is his passion, for which the frenchwoman. tell this story about a female dolphin decided afam. is there a role for another woman in this murder, but this is crazy jealousy that happened to a frenchwoman, if actually, as it was according to the version of zakrevsky minister of the russian count

panin, it means that it was a murder precisely prepared by the high society, and who did they mean? the sight of the most dry mare and this is his new mouth. uh, i hope you naryshkin. she was so. she didn't possess. in general, such beauty, but she was. eh, cynical. she was free and what they called her. i called the green-eyed cat. she was such a red-haired green-eyed. well, bone is a witch cat, and the frenchwoman began to follow him. she was jealous and it was not by chance that naryshkina herself also hated the frenchwoman. she wrote to alexander vasilyevich. he must get rid of her. that's shortly before death. this means that contemporaries describe such a story, which means when alexander vasilyevich was at a ball in the naryshkins' house. here he dances snaryshkina. and she notices through the window that the frenchwoman is looking out the window, and then what does she do? she, uh, nothing, not suspecting alexander vasilyevich , pulls back the curtains, which means that such a bay window brings

such a bay there. yes, like this. yes, you guessed the female mindset. why? she would turn her back so that he would not see the frenchwoman, and so, of course, they covered her face there. runs away from despair. yes, well, what is the moment? eh, when did you have time? arrest and interrogate it is very suspicious that she escaped. is not it. yes? she's not just so she ran away with lightning speed, when they came with a search to alexander vasilyevich, he even wrote in his diary that the catastrophe searched, uh, left alone, that is , she just runs, she runs with the womb with the child of a dry mare. she was three months pregnant, being a married woman, and he did not give her away. he didn't give it away. of course he's a point. it was he who, during interrogations, denied that he said that i never had any connection with naryshkina, in general, as if we understand that, of course, he lied, because

that after 6 months naryshkina, e, in paris , gives birth to his daughter and how he raised dima younger correctly in the family of dumas jr. and how would you think, the daughter was called her name was louise. and with myself, too, very suspiciously very strange, yes, and she and naryshkina when she was already abroad. she actually ran away from her husband. well, by the way, a married woman helped her with documents, she couldn’t just leave without her husband’s permission. so i needed to write a statement to the governor general so that the governor general would give a form passport, so this passport form for naryshkin was stolen by the daughter of the governor general. uh, lydia zakrevskaya, and in fact, it means that soon lydia zakrevskaya also moved away from her husband. eh, the son of the chancellor, the mission of the family, she was married, she ran away for the son of the chancellor, and

they, in paris, organized such a thing. eh, i already read this in french memoirs. eh, they called this society of debauchery at home in orgievka. then they arranged there, they invited french writers, they staged orgies there and that same alexandre dumas son, who painted the ladies with camellia. he fell in love with naryshkina and then a daughter in the family while we were dry sitting here in prison writing plays, then it means that the matter ended only after 7 years. oh, yes, only the head of state could solve this problem. yes, they didn’t care, the investigators confused the case, so these officials said that when the sovereign emperor already got access to him there, e, got access, the mother of the dry beak was on the sister of the dry, they began to explain, and he, of course, looked at this case. he realized that there bribes he said so, that is, it was

confused there. it was impossible to unravel everything with bribes. what do you think, huh? well, what is the real version? for example, i think that it was a situation from a series that, well, sort of escaped. it must have been a french lady on a date. this ligi . i think it was something along the lines of. i will go. and you girls figure it out yourself, and then it comes and there it can be like this with an excellent researcher. yes, indeed , he took naryshkin to his place in africa, and here it could happen, of course, she is such a scene in wing. and in general, the way it was conveyed. contemporaries da naryshkin somehow participated in this and uh. it seems to me, thus confirming. and the fact that she named her daughter after her rival. it seems to me, i feel guilty, this is something, well, there is even more naryshkin there even before the discovery, she stupidly sent a note to the kabat kudror. uh, like a catholic campfire. uh, the note

was intercepted by the secret investigation of the governor-general, that she wrote to me . the coffin took down the details. how to bury in the french rite? yes, everything is clear. so tell me this way, are geniuses and villains compatible? is this picture of a crime the way you suggested as an example, yes, then, of course, uh, dryly, they could not tear apart two feelings of guilt in front of, uh, pocket and wine in front of naryshkina and in front. baby yes, he knew, of course, he knew that she was three months pregnant. he knew all this very well when it all happened. tell me, and you are studying this the personality learned something, that is, somehow the spirit of sukhov's mare moved in you, but relatively speaking, but uh, what has changed in you while working on this material. you know, how i, firstly, when i studied,

in general, his whole nature, his character and tearing him into pieces of contradiction. here i am, of course, i was attracted by the power of yegor . despite the fact that he survived all this in prison, he asked such nervous shocks for eight years. yes, this is for those times. it's just scary here's leo tolstoy yes, more than tolstoy here and in this sense, uh, i tried. here uh, comprehend. here's to me the usual russian nature, you see, for me this is a mystery. he says the talented man was talented in everything. i didn’t fight for something, there is a lynx there. it was a success all with him, and here and at the same time some kind of such a strange, dark one, as he himself said. uh, strange strange fate great run me great holy fate, yes, the great blind man, he was called bluff him. so, uh, i must say, yes, i really changed a lot internally while i was studying the dry mare. yes

a feature when you work with some material from a biography and you change. this is nature, uh, which cannot but have an impact, and uh, this is such an archetypal fate, uh, of a russian writer. of course, when prison either uh, write or break, or she, on the contrary, makes him a powerful figure strengthens his spirit. and this happened to a dry mare, then it was dostaevsky, or the same thing happened when he got out of prison. here, that is, here it is very archite. here is such a collision.