we equal, well, until recently, we were equal to the euro and the dollar. that is, these are currencies, well , it is customary to say these are western currencies. why russia, uh, and was there such a period in the history of russia of the soviet union when russia was more oriented to the east and, accordingly , the binding of both currencies and trade would be to the east well, i’m talking there, well, well, china yes there, and even india yes, that’s the middle one the east was such a period in russia when russia looked more, and in the other direction towards the sunrise, and not the sunsets, and was oriented. uh, it is for the currencies of these countries, in my opinion, there was no such period. and this is easily explained. well, russia grew up as an independent large state, like a european country. which then spread its influence all the way to the pacific ocean. this is true, but still

, as they say, all economic ones are now tied. we had them in western europe and we traded, of course, mainly with it. and therefore, since the time of peter, it ’s certainly what was brought to russia from china , these were valuable things. it was tea and chinese tea, like the whole russian empire. enjoyed. this was a lot. it was really serious, but nevertheless, all the same, the main partners , external economic ones were the western countries and the east, then what is called was just waking up and china india was still actually a semi-colony and which had an independent role in world trade and didn't play. therefore, i repeat what is happening now, uh, this is probably an unprecedented period in the history of russia when we make such a real turn in our economic and not

only economic goals, uh, east to side of china, to which we, in general, contributed a lot. if we talk about china, then it is quite obvious that without soviet help after the second world war, without the help of mao zedong, china would never have become such a power as it is now, most likely, it would have been divided among the colonial powers that are there already had their own interests. yes, of course, he achieved independence precisely with the help of the soviet union, and there were huge economic injections into the chinese economy from the ussr, so what china now, in such a gigantic economic dragon, there is also our good relations. well, it’s good that the chinese are not a benevolent positive attitude towards russia.

it’s just that many chinese of the older generation still repay their debts historically, they sing katyusha very much and treat the soviet union very well, and remember that many studied in the soviet union, this factor of our long-standing closeness cannot be ignored when assessing our relations with china and a question for you like a historian. a. well, it's no secret that one of the main major challenges taking place for political change now in the world, and in europe in particular , is that the us e. well, here, i have a certain theory there, even that is, we are now seeing this hospitalism in its purest form an attempt. here are the formations of centers of power. yes, of course, there is one of the centers of power. this is china the second center of power, yes or not the first one is the usa and which seeks to destroy and destroyed quite successfully, the emerging raw material financial center, there russia and europe, even to a greater extent russia there germany question.

uh, all this here, uh, let's say economic friendship hmm, cooperation has flown off like dust in just a few years of propaganda, but especially over the last year of this demonization of this destruction, and will this not happen to china, that is, uh, when china he will understand that his interests are all resolved, and this economic russia is no longer needed as a long-term partner, and, uh, won't it , so what are we actually now? well, here is what you are saying, an unprecedented turn towards the east, first of all, china and india is the region's largest powers. yes, because indonesia is easier than 105 economies of the world in the next 10 years, but will it not happen? so, in terms of mentality, the east is so far from russia that it simply uses russia as a lever? a step in order to rise even higher here, if possible, to make some historical forecasts , to draw some parallels, to what extent russia will withstand precisely long-term cooperation will not be

discarded. and the next partner there, next there, even if it’s in debt. yes there on 20-30 years, but the next step will be such that, and the east that has grown there, including at the expense of our resources, will go further, firstly, i don’t think that we have been thrown back several decades. i'm with europe i meant relations with europe well, maybe. you could say that, but still. i do not think that europe itself will not be thrown back, that is, they have an inseparable relationship with economic development, and it will itself be thrown back, as it seems to me, far enough back and behind another american gas the molecule of freedom yes, it will not lose its economic profitability. yes, and secondly, are the chinese such cunning people who seem to use us for their own purposes, but, probably,

i cannot be responsible for the chinese. such a suspicion such a doubt can certainly arise, but on the other hand. uh, if you look at how geopolitical and historical these processes are, then let 's decide right away that russia needs china. and , of course, it is necessary not just as a source of resources, but as a global partner. he, what, he is interested in weakening her no, and we see recent reactions, especially china , confirm this very clearly with regard to our resources. of course they are. uh, we are building these gas pipelines so that china receives the necessary energy resources, and we are interested in china being a strong and powerful state. and so it already is. i actually believe that we still have rather positive and as stories. i'm not supposed

to be a futurist, but still, based on such a historical tradition and trend. i think that our relations with china will be friendly and partner enough for a long time and to mutual benefit. thank you. and i think that this is a question that, let's say , worries every thinking russian now. and it's very positive. but there is a blessing. where to grow for us and china and our relations with china thank you very much for the historical digression and thank you for the positive thank you for coming. thank you hello friends, this is a podcast. life is wonderful and with you i am alexei varlamov

, writer, rector of the literary institute. and today we will talk about wonderful poems, we will talk about poetry and in our studio, two wonderful poets dmitry petrovich bak, who is also the director of the dahl literary museum and the host of the podcast. let them say no, let the poet maxim albertovich amelin, glorified and hung with literary awards, read, and we will talk about poetry, and the reason for our conversation for our meeting was the day of poetry, which, as you know, is celebrated in march. for the first time this holiday was celebrated in our country in 1999 in a literary museum. yes, in literary the museum is where it all started. well, generally speaking, if we talk, the russian letter. it has been said to the structure more than once that poetry is a poetic form of speech

, this utterance, well, such a national ultimate ideal form of utterance in russian. this is an extremely perfect river that remains forever. and i have a question. i have never written poetry, so for me people who write poetry are some kind of special people, and i want to ask you, but in literary creativity in literary skill. eat such a thing as inspiration that's about bunnies. at least i often say guys. don't expect any inspiration. eh, writing is work and you can’t justify yourself by saying that today i write tomorrow i don’t write, or vice versa. no. that's how markets tie themselves to a chair with ropes and , uh, write to inspire. this chimera was invented by poets. so that's the question, so the maximum albertovich to you. but is there any inspiration or not? is there a music or not? here, in fact, just tell in fact, of course there is and go as it exists. e, such

there are such cases. well, that is, there, yes, the word was the weather. and what i had e, do you understand why? uh, well, he lives an ordinary life there, yes, in the same way as it is not yet required, however, yes, to some extent, that is, he accumulates some. i don’t know about this inner one, some kind of poetic hmm collection of honey. i don't know honey. eh, here, and then all of a sudden it happens it dawns on him at some point. eh, it happens, but this does not mean that there, let's say, poetic work, like and not that daily, well , practically, that it does not exist. she is, she another. simply and by the way, many prose writers.

it’s not that they didn’t fail, well, not established projects, how would they abandon the political, because they didn’t have enough , they wanted more, uh, that is, plots, for example, ah, so it might be - well, no, there are times when this prose writer rolled into one , yes, and such cases. we just don’t have so much in our literature in our literature we know them and in english literature there is something like this happens hmm well, there is an american harpoon, for example, yes, here, here is a classic case with us. in turgenev, alexei konstantinovich tolstoy, pasternak, of course, on his sides, and andrei bely bunin sologub, so i scored nine. here, add, it seems, almost everything is not enough, for example, plato yes, of course, there were very good poems, of course, we are so far away valentine yes, he then abandoned this business. he did not write poetry all his life. yes, and if we talk

about those who lived parallel parallel lives and will write life, right all my life all my life a small poem, uh, the penultimate such an icy night mistral he to put them i see the light in the windows and the distance of the mountains of the hills of the naked golden motionless light before the bed lay there is no one in the sublunar, only i yes, god knows, only he is my dead sadness. the one that i melt from everyone is the cold shine of mistral, which is almost before death. yes, late will be fine, well , well. and here is a question. and it seems to you that in art there is progress, but in poetry, that's what development is - this is understandable. is it possible to consider this development of poetry as a development from some simpler forms to more complex ones, or how describe? this is development, that's all, how it all happens. so, on the contrary, decrease.

er, because, that is, the most yes, to some extent, but hmm, because e is the most complex form. they are at the early e, this is the development of literature. well, of course there slings, uh, to rigvid, well, there, yes, that is, everything was the most difficult there. in general, there were times when everything was complicated anew, for example, er, there in the era. yes, when the complexity of the form and the refinement of some hmm, sophistication in general with trophic there is rhythmic and so on, when they came to the fore someone led or it happened by itself. life is led by maxim albert chamel. he is known precisely for his archaic position, not archaic, archaizing. that is, it is negative. on the contrary. yes, this is a very unconventional look. i'm terribly close. e, and, of course, with such

a position there is a regression, which consists in simplification, but in fact , simplification reigns around, the letters were removed, because e looks like it, but this is a different sound. i hear. e. the sound that was e in place of e, yat and therefore maxim is right in the sense that the forms are simplified and now they are born stronger, the technique of opening is more easily picked up. well, this is how the world works, uh, such hypercommunication, i would not call it a regression, but there is some logic in this. yes? well, for example, if we take the eighteenth century russian, yes, there is the most incredible number of types and forms. especially it’s astrophic that’s as many as there are four feet in the hole, and then it’s all in the hole, while everyone knows, and the 18th century knows only the maximum, because it seems to me that for a wide audience of readers eighteenth century, but at best lomonosov is a nugget in the third grade. we

are to blame, as we are. we russian people are to blame for the fact that russian people do not know us well. this is the pinnacle of russian poetry 18 years, to some extent yes, to some extent depending on what, well, there is metaphysical, if you make a physical father , in theory, for example, they say that russian poetry is anti-metaphysical poets of metaphysics, they are not so many, yes, it’s true, but we have late metaphysics, and they come out, in general , from early metaphysics bobrov’s seeds hmm amazing poet. mm, thank god. here he published a two-volume book and now another huge work will be released written in russian in verse. and yes, as far as the 16th century is concerned. these are the peaks, these are the mountain peaks of russian poetry, than pushkin lermontov cannot be compared higher. everything means higher. uh, it's just that there are different levels, different levels, different languages. well, pushkin is also outdated now for

the modern reader. it is just as outdated not in prose, but in verse it is just as outdated and requires almost the same commentary. how to keep, you know? quite to me students once asked me i asked the question, what is scrip? no easier. eh, after the bag there is no easier work and smoothly such a staff asked, but she herself told me. we're missing the letter m here, maybe this is the amount, tell me. i say it's like a bag, yes. well, of course, i don’t agree with pushkin, but you can’t compare one with the other, because these are completely different experiences. they are not from the experience of the next generation behind us , the situation is still in what we are now talking about the text as the fatherland. and we are a favorite term. i often replicate it and found out that somewhere in norway even someone uses it. this is a screen insufficiency, that is, descreen infrillers, that is, text. we have russian in russian. i came up with in russian, screen failure. that is, we are used to the fact that

the text is freed from all external e, media , and so on, but why can’t e be popular during the life of cantemir, a brilliant body ka because there was no system of royalties for thick magazines of large circulations. eh, that's a completely different story. he was popular, just as popular as pushkin if you take the percentage the ratio of readers, but another era did not have literature at all, which knew the people was impossible. i think here i contradict maxim yes, it was impossible to imagine a national russian poet at the beginning of the 18th century. it is very much external. here pushkin coincided with the professionalization of literature and the emergence of the tolstoy journal due to russia's movement of russian literature to the cutting edge. it happened. uh, in the forties and fifties in this. the whole thing is to compare cantemir bobrov and pushkin, it's like comparing tea with sugar in a spoon. uh, uh, saucer, and

etc. they all complement each other these, maybe too. but the concept of a court poet, for example, yes, this is the concept of the 18th century. can we say that the poetry of the 18th century? is this court poetry? well, to some extent, you can say? but it can be said at the same time that she served the interests of the court. i think it matched here. well, uh, a classic example of a court poet, who, by the way, held the position of a foothill library vasily petrovich petrov uh, a stunning and great author, and battle battles are happening here, everything is described there as and now to the cinema. yes, if you take the battle scene that is described there. yes, there are cameras. uh, so to speak, it is approaching, then it will move away to the height of a bird's flight, and so on. that is how to say court poet. yes, he sang almost all the main battles, and under

catherine ii of the seventies and eighties . it seems to me that this coincided with his personal, but i don’t know the desire to compete with him there. spinder, but with the ball, for example, ah! not that he knew eight languages. eh, i learned the ninth in my old age. about them taught moreover, if you really have to go, and velasquez court painter opersil at the court composer. well, it's just such an institution. yes, this does not mean that this is an ideological service to the authorities. it’s just that there was no system of fees, i’ll say it again, yes, lomonosov is an academician chemist e, he lived by this, well, how would he live, yes, poetry could not live in this , the whole thing was not paid, it turns out, yes, pushkin is not for sale inspiration, but you can sell the manuscript, because he tried first and i'll tell you a trial balloon of this, therefore, well, yes, who tried from everyone, so he will give

shake. and he fought very hard for authorship, because in the eighteenth century there was no such institution for authors either, so , secondly, derzhavin, for example, all during his lifetime and published in magazines. i didn’t sign or signed there, i composed z, for example, an ode to a felitz, the author’s name always comes at the end, even at the beginning of 19 yes, and then in the twenties and thirties there is a turning point, and the author is in first grade 19 19. yeah, the author goes to the first plan, and it doesn’t even matter that he drank chichikov’s adventures or gogol’s dead souls, not vice versa. yes it is uh uh it's just such an institution that many books have been written about it. well, why did we learn the name of dionysius so late, because for the same reason there is a sacred moment, not quite for the same, yes, but, nevertheless, i did not consider it possible for the mission to be necessary. well, as it were

, directly sign, like filons or problems of authorship the word about igor's regiment, of course. well, in general, of course, in general , medieval authorship. moreover, i’ll tell you that in russia it’s especially obvious that we don’t practically know author’s literature before the first e, as if the author is actually ivan terrible and with rare exceptions there, uh, some names are with a bang - under various compositions, but who are they yes correspondence, so in the 17th century it’s already only there, uh, yes, a vacuum, here is the court poetry of the 17th century, there is semyonnovsky sylvester medvedevr. they already somehow signed, after all, their essay, so it was impossible to imagine a situation when someone, well, you know, there , a million people knew the ruble, because it was registered in a hundred head, you know, under grozny

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we choose rinival. this week of the bikfest is dedicated to those who were chosen for how to spend your holidays? now you choose four nuggets or two strips for only 39 rubles. only in the application is tasty and that's it dear friends, we continue the podcast with you. life is wonderful and aleksey varlamov is a writer and rector of a literary institute. and we continue to talk with dmitry bak and maxim amelin about poetry, so how can you tell if any person who writes poetry is a poet or not? where is the line between amateur and professional when a project starts? about whom you can say, but this is a poet. and this poems is just uh, it's probably maybe, but i'll say in terms of theory literature. well, how does the theory taste enough here? no, but as, well, there is one criterion is the time people publish there, but that's

a crafty story. uh, this is a crafty story, because, uh, for me here pushkin gives a very clear recipe. therefore, this is the one who, with his text, goes beyond the framework of personal fate, love has passed, music has appeared and the dark mind has cleared up. remember , nothing can be written from inside the feeling, and this gives. i understand if a woman never left me and then didn't come back, i don't care understand. i remember a wonderful moment. it is not important for me to know in what state pushkin met anna petrovna kern, he wrote very ironically about this in the morning, as we know, right? well, uh, the most uh, such an ultimate absolute poet is, uh, a ninth-grader. vasya who writes eighth graders. valya, why did you leave? yes? he's all in this feeling, he messed up, hoped or not? he is not a poet, but because it is interesting to valya herself, and to his mother, who will say don’t worry, son,

well, somehow you will survive well, maybe neighbor. yes, but we don't repeat it. what makes a fact of poetry, and the possibility of familiarization with the meaning, in addition to the situation that is described in addition to words. pushkin, so i continued this date. remember, uh, i am writing and my heart does not yearn for the soul, who has forgotten from his neighbor does not draw completed poems, nor women's, but not the heads went out and the ashes do not flare up anymore, because there is none. yes, but it will be very soon. then i will start writing, so they remembered 25 songs in sync. yes, here's the key, that is, i'm not trying to capture express myself, like many they say, yes, write your conditional wali or a neighbor or mamik for the holiday of march 8 something, but poetry is always through death poetry through death, because any phrase that we now exchange. she temporarily any words that just said do not die, or

everything that i just said, do not die three options for pronouncing one word, not a sparrow, but the form is not important. i formulated yes three times three differently, but all three formations are dead but what you tell me to you is mine yes, for example, this has remained forever show them there will be at least one understand in russian and don’t even drink something to read, that is, this is the word that immediately becomes. h- forever eternal and remembers him one amelin or a million people there is no difference, good. no, i wouldn't, it was all good. uh, it seems to me that after all, this poet is the same hmm so who, well, actually consciously, a works with a poetic word , a poetic text and creates some kind of poetic whole from all the previous ones yes

, a poet is always a conscious work. check out the drafts. pushkin this is a conscious work. this is the creation poetic text of a refined form. the only, uh, probably, pushkin's work is with the initial impression, which unconsciously then she hones endlessly all this, but the starting one, as nabokov says, is a lyrical possibility. remember the novel is a gift, it directly analyzes the process of writing a poem by its hero, but nabokov himself by the very set of poems bathroom where you are not, but plans plans plans remained from the eighteenth century. derzhavina he also wrote plans, but uh, he often went into different plans of verses by afanasy fet haha. and you know, we must look no, they can not be then the next question is for you, as a student of a literary institute.

can poetry be taught? is it possible to educate and raise a poet? well, well, well, it's quite possible, the poet is not sure you can, but a good poet. where, then, is the line between a good poet and therefore ah. come on, as a simple edge, there should be a gift, but there should be mountains of another, but on one. well , you know, it's like uh, once said, shows me the parsnip said, scriabin well listen, and he says, i do not absolutely dove. i, too, and tchaikovsky, too, is not absolute. here, uh, you understand, you can work out some kind of technical ah, base to read the train, that is, as a poet arises, so not uh hmm something some kind of dangling in space. first of all, in general, a connoisseur should be good, previous and better only in his own language.

clearly, not only from the forest can not. eh, now it’s possible to leave the forest, because they left the forest when folklore moved them, and now it’s folklore. no, he unfortunately, we have rested for xx folklore. in this sense, similar to the history of poetry, epics had the correct forms for ditties. it was dart who put forward all the guns, therefore, like yesenin there nuev, for example, he was such a periodic one, ring 19 is very well known from george. ivanov is not. yes? yes, he did some work. yes, this is understandable. well , nevertheless, well put forward to some extent. that is its base. first of all, that is a person. you hear, i suspect that e lomonosov

was also somehow on this folklore. eh, that is it's friendlier like on which he grew up. yes, and then he broke it. german yamps there and turned it, but is it possible to say that fate is made for this, that here is a poet - this is a poet who has a fate, every poet has a fate, for example, well, there was such a poet to a cat, for example, we are nothing about we don’t know him, i don’t know anything at all, i accepted him at all, in addition, this is his poem. what? yes , we don't know anything about him. no, we know where he lived, if we do not know, this does not mean that he did not have a destiny. just us we don’t know it, no, some elements of fate. he described himself. uh, the poetess emily dickinson well, all right, she lived all her life on the second floor of the attic, which means some kind of house , uh, and didn’t go anywhere else, that is, there are some, after all, rather an exception, and then there really are such poets who traveled all over there white light. what kind of stew

did you go to? i'm here too, so i'll take his biography. here's the idea right here. and write this biography. that's not everyone's fate, i say, there is. it seems that everyone has dmitry petrovich, what am i talking about? no, it's fate, after all. it is largely made up of how he is perceived, how he is heard, because shakespeare did not exist in the 18th century. we know this very well. well, at the very end of the seventeenth and at the beginning of the eighteenth there was no classicism. outside. they stopped hearing him , forgot him, and only the germans schlegel, one of the schleigel brothers. uh, august wilhelm schleigel. translated experiment german shakespeare was rediscovered because he turned out to have the sound of romanticism. yes. and chekhov later heard an ironic promise from tolstoy that shakespeare is a barbarian for your plays even worse, that is, a lot depends on external causes, and manuscripts are burning mistletoe. again, the manuscripts will not agree, they are on fire, because the poet must. well, after all, uh, during

his lifetime to understand that he hears some kind of confirmation of some kind of response to the poet. yes, and he is only an object for archaeographic studios, nothing more, i will say that the probability that there are some unknown geniuses, that they are such at all, is possible, but in modern times, for example, the probability is almost zero, well, then is, if we don't know a and it doesn't exist anywhere, then unlikely, but it does exist. this is what cannot be said about the past, because there are quite a few rediscoveries in the past, because poets are such a substance. it sometimes once and suddenly is in tune with time for no reason at all, but it happens that it is not in tune with it. yes, sometimes. this is how elud once discovered the english metaphysician poets tom stas yes, it was he who discovered wrote such an article at 20:00,

and therefore everyone remembered the trophies from then, there was no one before john. brodsky's load where did john's big elegy dollars come from brodsky took a shot, he denounced, yes, fell asleep all around, but all around, and before that, well, somehow he was published, but no one paid such attention to him. you are trying to do the same with the russian eighteenth. yes, i generally considered that this is my mission, yes. this is my mission. i have to get it back somehow. but i hardly have, enough, uh, there are people who are working on this case, not only i thank god that there are three here. yes, people who love more and it's like me, yes. well, in the sense you are all like how fits into this progugma of the 18th century absolutely fits into any in any literature such a bright bruka was such a good poet, but in

the twentieth century, what happens to russian poetry, we won’t talk about everything with russian. it arises, in general, due to objective reasons, uh from the revolution. yes, it has two currents. in general, it's one. and it's so objective. uh, the poetry that was in the soviet union and which has practically no background meaning, for example, well, soviet poetry, who who specifically the names, but for anyone, take on the soviet orthodox socialist, well , after let's throw away the romantics there tikhonov selvinsky, because they are good, yes, and who are you disturbed by? well, who will be left? well, as who will remain, well, whole whole literature worked, yes, unfortunately.

tvardovsky where there is no second plan, isakovsky and so on, is a second plan needed? i'll bet. eh, maxim there was poetry in emigration that cultivated precisely this second plan, for example, refusing. well, how? well ivanov is there i don't know adamovich and so on. they cultivated this second plan well. and here, and those who remained pasternak akhmatov mandelstam oh, well, it was good, it was good, well, mandelstam, uh, also tried to somehow build. e into the system he tried to eat the same obvious attempts, but unsuccessful ones , the tragic device could not be built. haven't even tried as hard as i've tried. but how ? well, of course, well, everything will be fine with her. here at the same time i wrote, i will argue completely different poems, yes, in my opinion, i say about this students for many years hmm the most mysterious verses. poems are auto-logical, that

is, without metaphors, the most perfect, for example, i loved you, love is still to be. maybe this is exactly what is said, without a second plan, without any second plan. or if everything for which we grew up and missed and cried, both of us would end up with a handful in the ground, the surface of the pine coffin. if a new life, o soul, begins in a black grave. how good she must be so that we forget about the earthly, that is, it is poetry without a second plan and the greatest achievement, because we accustomed to all sorts of e numerous, which silver implants. do you think it's a metaphor, because it's not the second plan. so what is the second plan. it's something else. this is something else, what kind of text is there, as it were, i disagree with you. hmm, i'm not sure there are many ingenious solids. he says that they are bad and just tell. brodsky

or where is there a second plan? in some places there is in some places, because he is also, in general, a soviet poet of a different kind. he is soviet poetry, crossed with there i do not know english with john you see, uh. he took it from crystal, and he did it, but this is an unconventional look, of course because for me, of course, the unattainable peak is the block. uh, because well, of course, he has, well, how to put it more accurately, but he has a lot of poems, uh, without which he could do without it , but a large body of poems, but such a holistic transformation of himself into poetry. we do not see, yes, that is, these are three books, three books of the poet, where it is, like hegel, no matter how the convergence of absolutely ideas, eternal femininity, sin, uh dance uh, music, uh, the bow and then the state the revolution and 12. yes. here is the inaccessibility. the state

of the revolution is lenin no no no i mean i didn't misspoke. i am not quoting. in this case, that for the blocks of the first book the theme is the eternal femininity of solovyov, yes, which here just was the rustle of a dress and so on, in the second book is the city of a snowstorm. music dance, demonism, stranger here is my convergence of absolutely femininity to the ground. yes, this is the city, of course, do you remember or not? factory at school taught? yes, the windows are yellow, eh, eh then the third book - this is the same theme, the symbolic has already endured. this drama is transferred to forms. e political structure of the constituent assembly of the state. this is the most paradoxical thing about the block. you are in this in this the whole thing on the kulikov field we taught at school, not realizing how paradoxical it is.