so when i finished the festival, i cleared my dissertation and left. it was the nineties went to work. there, first in a trading house, then in a bank, my mother did not talk to me for a year. she says you traded an elite education for a dissertation for some hucksters. well, all relationships. so she says, i don't understand what you're doing some money stock exchange markets and so on, and that's 2 weeks ago. she watched the podcast. it was at 12:30 at night. she called me and said, misha, i'm proud of you, and i just cried, really, mom, thank you so much for these words. i am very grateful to the first channel that i don’t know such reconciliation, that i finally understood my mother what i was doing and that’s it. this is thanks to these people who come to visit and the channels that sell all this for the first channel. i am 30 years old. i do the devil, what dad condemns. he tells everyone this shit you do on the radio and well, mom, sometimes she will listen, which for me is always an unpleasant surprise, because you can’t joke hard. yes, yes, and here is now and mother. dad is amazing

he watches a podcast, paws on channel one and, moreover, all in one voice, which is also strange , they say some good things right , i want to wish us all, you know, she wants understanding, not everything can be understood, she has everyone. i want to wish us acceptance. let us love each other and accept each other as they are, because each of you is such a treasure. and i am very happy that today we have shown up so much time with you , it is such a pleasure and lifted each other straight away. everything that annoys us there i like leaving here a jewel, which in each of us is the same thank you all, so huge huge. thanks to all involved. many thanks to channel one. most. main. thank you to the audience of channel one for being so zealous with such pleasure you perceive everything new that channel one brings into our lives, i also wanted to add that many thanks to channel one for not only i don’t know, i

think it’s just the fate of people pass and well from that side and from this side and the spectators and people who work on channel one, and it seems to me that this is such a close relationship, which is simply, well, the strongest is with channel one. thank you very much happy birthday. i have a feeling that i am in some kind of 7d universe where every a of you. well , it responds to me very strongly and i feel it. i am very grateful to the first channel for the fact that i got to know you better today. oh, you are wonderful. thank you very much for coming podcasts yes, please, yes, it sounded right in the evening. yes very good can be uploaded? well, channel one, happy birthday to the kids and everyone on the first of april, keep a good mood. let everything be good for everyone and , uh, bright and cake. everyone thought that nikolai would jump out at the end. distance vietnam. well

, let's see, this is not the end. happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you , happy birthday to you. first channel happy birthday to you. hello friends, this is a podcast. life is wonderful and with you i am alexei varlamov , a writer and rector of a literary institute. and today we will talk about wonderful poetry, we will talk about poetry and we have two wonderful poets in our studio dmitry petrovich bak, who is also the director of the dahl literary museum and the host of the podcast.

let them not talk, let the poet maxim albertovich amelin, glorified and hung with literary awards, read, but we will talk about poetry, and the reason for our conversation for our meeting was the day of poetry, which, as you know, is celebrated in march. the first time this holiday was celebrated in our country in 1999 literary museum. yes, it is in literary aziz. it is from there that everything went, and so it is. but generally speaking, uh, if we talk about russian letters. toure was never once told that poems are poetic forms of speech , this utterance, well, as if such a national ultimate ideal form of utterance in russian is the ultimate perfect speech that remains forever.

you understand the duck, therefore, well, he lives an ordinary life there, but in the same way as it

is not yet required. yes, to some extent so, that is, some accumulates. u inner here i don't know this one, some kind of poetic hmm collection of honey. i don't know honey. eh, here, and then all of a sudden it happens it dawns on him at some point. and it happens. but this does not mean that there, for example, poetic work, as well as daily, well, practically, that it does not exist. she is, she is different. simply and by the way, many prozacs are not something that did not fail, well, not developed, so how would they abandon their poetic, because they didn’t have enough, they wanted more, uh, that is, plots, for example, ah, so maybe be. in my opinion, no, there are cases when i am in this prose writer in one person, of course, yes, and such cases. we just in our literature

are not like that in our literature, we know them, and in english literature there is something like this happens . hmm well, there is an american harpoon about. yes, here we have a classic case. in turgenev alexei konstantinovich tolstoy and pasternak of course. nabokov yes andrey bely bunin sologub so i scored nine. here , add, it seems, almost everything is not enough, for example, platonov yes, of course, yes, very good poetry were, of course, we are far valentine yes, he then quit doing it. all his life he did not write elements. yes, and if we talk about those who , yes, who lived in parallel with a parallel life and will write life, right all their lives all their lives until the end of their days, the last one is a small poem. eh, the penultimate such an icy night mistral it has not subsided yet i see the light in the windows and the distance of the mountains of the naked hills golden motionless light before the bed lay no one

in the sublunar no, only i yes, god knows, only he is my dead sadness. the one that i melt from everyone, the cold shine of mistral is almost before death. yes, late will be fine, well , well. and here is a question. and it seems to you that in art there is progress, but in poetry, that's what development is - this is understandable. is it possible to consider this development of poetry as a development from some simpler forms to more complex ones, or how to describe it in general? this is development, this is what is happening. so, on the contrary, decrease. uh, because, that is, the most yes, to some extent, a regression, but hmm, because they are the most complex form in the early uh, the development of literature. well, of course there is some community and slings uh rigvida. well, yes, there, yes, that is, everything was the most difficult there. in

general, there were times when everything was complicated anew, for example, uh, there in the era, borovka. yes, when the complexity of the form and the refinement of some hmm and the sophistication in general with trophic there is rhythmic and so on, when they came to the fore someone led or it happened by itself life is led by maxim albertovich is known precisely for his archaic position, not archaic, archaizing . that is, it is negative. he's a turnover. yes, it's unconventional. very look. i'm terribly close. eh, and , of course, with such a position there is a regression, which consists in conversion, but in fact, the simplification of the letter reigns around, because it looks like it, but this is a different sound. i hear. e. and here is the sound that was e, in place. eh, yat, and therefore maxim is right. in the sense that the forms are simplified and now they are more replicated

, the technique of opening is easier to pick up. well , this is how the world works, uh, such hypercommunication, i would not call it a regression, but it has some kind of logic. yes? well, for example, if you take the eighteenth century, russian, yes, there, this is the most incredible number of types and forms. it’s especially astronomical, as much as it’s all there in the hole of four, and then it’s all in the hole, while everyone knows, and the 18th century is known only to the maximum, because it seems to me that for a wide audience of the reader the 18th century, but at best lomonosov and we are to blame for samorodkovsky, just as we are. we russian people are to blame for the fact that we are poorly known. this is the pinnacle of russian poetry 18 years to some extent yes, in to some extent depending on what, well, there metaphysical. completely metaphysical poetry, for example, they say that russian poetry is anti-metophysically poets, not that of physicists. they are not so many, and indeed, but we have

late metaphysicians, and they come out, in general , from the early metaphysician instead of bobrov. hmm, an amazing poet. mm, thank god. here he published a two-volume book and now another huge poem will be released, large works written in russian in verse. a.e., regarding the seventeenth century. these are mountain peaks peaks of russian poetry than pushkin lermontov can not be compared can not be compared. what does above mean? it's just that there are different levels, different levels, different languages. well, pushkin is also outdated now for the modern reader. it is just as outdated not in prose, but in verse it is just as outdated and requires almost the same commentary. how to keep, you know? well , not quite the students once asked me. they were asked the question, what is the bag, there is no easier, and after the crazy work is easier and smoothly such a staff asked, but i myself was told. we are here

the missing letter m may be the sum. say i say it's like a bag, yes. well, of course, i don’t agree with pushkin, but you can’t compare one with the other, because these are completely different experiences. they are not from the experience of the next generation. yes, the situation is still in what we are now talking about the text as the fatherland. and we are a favorite term. i often replicate it and found out that somewhere in norway , even someone uses it. this is a screen failure, that is, a descreen inferry, that is, a text. that is not accepted. we have russian in russian, however, i came up with russian, screen failure. that is, we are used to the fact that the text is freed from all external e, carriers, and so on, but why can't e be popular during life to the anti-world of genius? cantemir because there was no fee system for thick magazines with large circulations. eh, that's a completely different story. he was popular, just as popular as pushkin, if

we take the percentage of readers, but there was no literature at all in the other era, which was impossible for the people to know. i think here i contradicted maxim yes, it was impossible imagine a national russian poet at the beginning of the 18th century. it is very much external. here pushkin coincided with the professionalization of literature and the emergence of the tolstoy journal due to russia's push of russian literature to the forefront. it happened. uh, in the forties and fifties in this. the whole thing is to compare cantemir bobrov and pushkin, it's like comparing tea with sugar in a spoon. uh, uh, saucer, and so on. they all complement each other these, maybe too. but the concept of a court poet, for example, yes, this is the concept of the 18th century. can we say that poetry 18th century? is this court poetry? well, to some extent, you can say, but you can say at the same time that she served the interests of the court. i think it matched here. well, uh, a classic example of a court poet

, who, by the way, served as court librarian vasily petrovich petrov, uh, amazing and great author, and battles are happening here, everything is described there, since u are now in the cinema. yes, if you take the battle scene that is described there, yes, there, the camera, so to speak , approaches, then we move away to a height bird flight and so on. that is how to say court poet. yes, he sang all the practical main battles, and under catherine ii of the seventies, and the eighties. and it seems to me that this coincided with his personal, but i don’t know the desire to compete with him there. spinder ah, for example, ah! not that he knew eight languages. eh, i learned the ninth

in my old age. he taught them more than that, if you really have to go, and velazquez court painter opersil court composer. well, it's just such an institution. yes , this does not mean that it is ideological power service. it’s just that there was no system of fees, i’ll say it again, yes, lomonosov is an academician, e, he, well, how he lived , yes, it was impossible to live poetry in this the whole thing was not paid, it turns out, yes, pushkin is not for sale inspiration, but you can sell a hand without because he was the first to try and i’ll show you a trial balloon of this, therefore, yes , who tried from everyone, it means he’s just shaking, and he also fought very hard for authorship, because in the 18th century there was no such institution for authors either, so no. i first kept, for example, everything during his lifetime and publication in magazines. i didn’t sign or signed there i composed z, for example, an ode to a felitz, the author’s name

always comes at the end, even at the beginning of 19 yes , and then in the twenties and thirties there is a turning point ah, the author is in the first grade of the nineteenth. yeah, the author comes to the fore and it doesn’t even matter that he drank chichikov’s adventures or gogol’s dead souls, not vice versa. yes, it's uh, well, it's just such an institution that many books have been written about it. well, why did we learn the name of dionysius so late, because for the same reason, not quite for the same sacred there is a moment. yes well, nevertheless did not consider it possible to be necessary for the mission. well, as it were , directly sign, like filons or problems of authorship the word about igor's regiment, of course. well, in general, of course, in general, medieval authorship. moreover, i will tell you that in russia it is especially obvious that we practically do not know author's literature to well. the first author, as it were, is actually

ivan the terrible. and with rare exceptions, there , uh, some names are with a bang. under various writings, but who are they ? here is the court poetry of the 17th century, there is semyonnov's sylvester the bear, i say, he is istomin i say, they already somehow signed their compositions, so it was impossible to imagine a situation when someone, well, knows, there is a million people rublyovo they knew, because it was registered in stoglav, you understand, under grozny, they wrote it down in stoglav that they should paint icons, as andrei rublev wrote them, he was canonized 100 years after his death, in fact, under grozny , that is, he does not canalize into a circus in a church explosion, but canalized, like an artist artists, right? dear friends, we continue our podcast with you. wonderful life. i am aleksey varlamov, a writer and

rector of a literary institute. and we continue to talk with dmitry bak and maxim amelin about poetry, so how can you tell if any person who writes poetry is a poet or not? this is where the line between amateur and professional is drawn. that's when the poet begins, about whom you can say, and this is the poet, and these are poetry prospectuses. uh, it's probably maybe, but i'll say the point of view of literary theory. yes as theory is enough taste? no, uh, well, there is one criterion is the time people. yes, there are editions. well, this is a very crafty story. uh, this is a crafty story, because, uh, for me here pushkin gives a very clear recipe. therefore, this is the one who, with his text and work, goes beyond the framework of personal destiny, love passed and the muse curled and the dark mind cleared up. remember , nothing can be written from inside a feeling, and this makes it possible. i understand, if a woman never left me, and then did not

return, i still understand. i remember a wonderful moment. i don't care to know what there state pushkin met with anna petrovna kern he wrote very ironic about it in the morning, as we know, huh? well, uh, the most uh, such an ultimate absolute poet is, uh, a ninth-grader. vasya who writes eighth graders. valya, why did you leave? yes, he is all in this feeling, he is all fulfilled , hoped or not. he is not a poet, but because it is interesting to voila herself, and to his mother, who will say don’t worry, son, well , somehow you will survive well, maybe to a neighbor. yes, but we don't repeat it. what makes poetry a fact, and the possibility of familiarization with meanings, in addition to the situation that is described beyond words. pushkin is here, i continued this quote. remember, uh, i am writing and my heart does not yearn for the soul, who has forgotten with does not draw finished poems without me, nor women's legs. on the extinguished ashes no longer flare up, but still i am not sad. yes, but

soon it will be completely sneezing, then i will start writing, so they remembered 25 songs in synchrony. yes, here's the key, that is, i'm not trying to capture self-expression, as many say, yes, write your conditional wali or a neighbor or mamik for the holiday of march 8 , something, and poems are always through death poems through death, because any phrase that we now exchange. she temporarily any words that just said do not die or everything that i just said do not die three options for pronouncing one word, not a sparrow, but the form is not important. i formulated yes three times three differently, but all three formations are dead. but what you tell me to you is mine yes, for example, this has remained forever. show if you understand at least one in russian and don’t even drink, the reader, that is, you understand, this is the word that immediately becomes. forever eternal and remembers it one amelin or a million

people, there is no difference, good. no, i would still not like it was all listening. uh. it seems to me that all the same, the poets here are the hmm who, well, actually consciously, a works e with a poetic word with a poetic text and create a kind of poetic whole different from all the previous ones in practice. yes, a poet is always a conscious work. check out the drafts. pushkin this is a conscious work. this is precisely the creation of a poetic text of a refined form. pushkin's only work with the initial impression, which unconsciously then sometimes a person is infinitely all this, but starting, as

nabokov says, a lyrical possibility. remember the coiner. he directly analyzes the process of writing a poem by his hero, but by nabokov himself by the very set of poems. here in the bathroom, where you are not, but the plans, the plans, the plans remained from the 18th century. derzhavina also wrote plans, but, uh, often went into different plans of poems by afanasy fet and you know, and you know, you have to look no, they can’t be then there may be the next question for you, as a student literary institute. can poetry be taught? is it possible to educate and nurture a poet it is possible that it is possible, but a good poet? where, then, is the line between good and therefore? ay, come on, as a simple edge should be a gift, so, come on, there should be another. yes, but on one, well, you know, it's like uh, once

the building was said, rather, pasternak left. scriabin well, listen, and he says, i have not absolutely. i, too, and tchaikovsky, too, not absolutely. here, you understand, you can work out some kind of technical base to read, how to understand how a poet arises not uh hmm something some kind of dangling in space, this is, first of all, in general, a good connoisseur should be, previous poetry and better. just a poet in his own language. well, it’s impossible to get out of the forest now , because they left the forest when folklore moved them, and now there is no folklore. unfortunately, we have died in the 20th century. folklore history. in this sense, similar to the history of poetry, the epic had the correct forms. it all came down to a cup, which folklore put forward all the coagulation, therefore, here's how

yesenin there klyuev, for example, here is such a primary ring 19 known from george. ivanova yes, he did a little. yes, yes, this is understandable. well, nevertheless, uh, he was put forward by some merefar. on that is its base, first of all folklore. that is a person. really. you hear, i suspect that e lomonosov was also somehow on this folklore. uh, i mean, it's the yeast that it grew on. yes, and then he refracted it through the german amps there and turned it. now, but is it possible to say that fate is made for this, that, therefore, this is a poet, which is destiny. well, every poet is the fate, for example, well, there was such a poet to the cat, for example, we don’t know anything about him, we don’t know anything at all, in general this is his poem,

which we don’t know anything about him. no , we know where he lives. if we do not know, this does not mean that he did not have a destiny. we just don't know it, no, some elements of fate. he described himself. uh, the poetess emily dickinson well, okay, she lived all her life on the second floor of the attic, that means some kind of house , uh, and never went anywhere else, that is such exceptions and then there really are such poets who have traveled all over the world there. what kind of souls do you understand? i'm here too, so take his biography. here's an idea right here, write a biography directly. that's not everyone's fate, i say, there is. i have a feeling that everyone does not have a destiny, yet it is largely composed. how he is perceived, how he is heard, because shakespeare did not exist in the 18th century. we know this very well. well, at the very end of the seventeenth and at the beginning of the eighteenth there was no

classicism. outside. they stopped hearing him they forgot him, and only the germans forgot the schlegel, one of the schleigel brothers. uh, august wilhelm schleigel. translated shakespeare into german shakespeare was rediscovered because he turned out to sound romantic. yes. and chekhov later heard an ironic remark from tolstoy that shakespeare, the barbarian , is even worse for your play, that is, a lot depends on external causes and the manuscripts are burning , a million will not agree again, the manuscripts are burning, because the poet must. well, after all, uh, during his lifetime to understand that he hears some kind of confirmation of some kind of response to the poet. yes, otherwise he only an object for archaeographic studios, nothing more, and i will say that the probability that there are some unknown geniuses, that they are such at all, is possible, but in modern times, let's say, the probability is almost zero. well, that is, if we don’t know, and it doesn’t exist

anywhere, then it’s unlikely, but it exists at all, which is why it’s impossible to say about the past, because there are quite a few rediscoveries in the past, because there is such a substance. sometimes it happens once and for all, in tune with time, for no reason at all , yes, it happens. that's how elite once discovered english metaphysician poets thomas start yes, he discovered some one , but he wrote such an article 20 years ago, and therefore those physicists remembered everything from then, there john was nobody before brodsky where did i get a big elegy from black access, yes well, all around. this one, well, was somehow published, but no one paid such special attention to him. you are trying to do the same with the russian eighteenth. yes, in general, i thought that this is

my mission, and this is it. yes, this is my mission. i have to get it back somehow. but i'm unlikely, enough, uh, there are people who are working on this case, not only. i thank god we are also three. here are gathered people who love more and it's like me yes i love to believe xviii, but borkov fits into this paradigm of the 18th century absolutely fits into any in any, and the literature of such a bright baroque was such a poet well, but in the twentieth century, what happens to russian poetry , we won’t talk about everything with russian poetry, and and it arises in general due to objective reasons, and from the revolution yes, it two. in general, it’s one thing, and this is such an objective, uh, poetry that was in the soviet union, which has practically

no second plan, meaning, for example, take it from anyone, but the soviet orthodox socialist, well, after let’s throw away the romantics there, tikhonov selvinsky, we’ll throw them away because they are still good? yes, and whom we will discard zabolotsky from you. well, who will be left? well, as who will remain, well, whole whole literature worked. yes, unfortunately not, vysokovsky and so on. i'll bet. maxim there is how immigration cultivated precisely this second plan, for example, by refusing. well, how? well, ivanov is there. so uh adamovich and so on. they cultivated this second plan well. and here, and those who remained i parsnips akhmatova mandelstam oh, well,

it was good, it was good, well, mandelstam, uh, also tried to fit in somehow. e into the system. he tried to eat obvious attempts, but unsuccessful ones, he could not get settled, practically could not build. you haven't even tried ahmatul since you tried. but what about, of course, well, everything will be fine with her. here at the same time, i wrote completely different poems, i will argue, but i will wash it. uh, i say this to students for many years hmm the most mysterious verses. these are autological verses, that is, without metals. the most perfect, for example. i loved you love in general to be. maybe this is exactly what is said, without a second plan, without any second plan. or if everything for which we grew up and missed and cried. both will be finished with a handful in the earth, the surface of the pine coffin, if the new life of the soul begins in a black grave. how good she must be so that we forget about the earthly, that is, precisely

verses without a background. this is the greatest achievement, because we have become accustomed to all kinds of second plan, uh, uh, for many centuries. you think that the metaphor is secondary. this is not the second plan. so what is the second plan. this is something else, for example, this is something else, behind the text, as it were, i do not agree with you. hmm, i'm not sure there are many twardowskies, so. and who says that they are bad, they tell ugly things somewhere, because he is also, in general, a soviet poet soviet poetry crossed with english. here, uh, he took it and slashed it, and he did it, but it's an unconventional look, of course. because for me, of course, the unattainable peak is a block.

uh, because, well, he certainly has it, well, how would it be more accurate to say, but he has a lot of poems, uh, without which he could do without it's true, but a large body of poems, but such a holistic transformation of himself into poetry . we do not see, yes, that is, here are three books of the poet's three books, where it is, like hegel, as an indulgence of the absolute idea of ​​\u200b\u200bthe eternal femininity, sin, uh, dance uh, music, uh, bow and then state and revolution and 12. yes. this is the inaccessibility of the state. no no i mean i didn't misspoke. i am not quoting. in this case, that for the blocks of the first book, and the theme is solovyov’s eternal femininity, yes, which is just here. dresses and so on, in the second book is the city of a snowstorm. music dance, demonism, stranger here is my convergence

of absolute femininity to the ground. yes, this is the city, of course, do you remember or not? factory at school taught? yes, the windows are yellow, but, and then the third book is the same theme, symbolic has already endured. this drama is transferred to forms. e of the political structure of the teacher of the reunion of the state. this is the most paradoxical thing, that if you block it in this. the whole thing on the kulikov field we taught at school, not understanding how paradoxical this story is, political poems in general, well, this is vyazma, this is tyutchev, of course, yes. in general, than political poems on the kulikovo field because, uh, what is politics polis politics is a way of representing private will in the collective, well, in the party. this is politics, relatively speaking, uh, the blog, uh, in his later poems, uh, gets to where tyutchev did not go. yes, because uh, this

symbolic progress still exists. no, this is not progress. this is a completely separate top of the block, in my opinion, this is not my favorite poet. don't think my favorite, that's why it's a strain. i say this honestly, yes, but this titan, alexander alexandrovich blog. it's absolutely achievable it is separate. this is the pinnacle, which, in addition to all the symbolisms of acmeisms. ah, glory rises. god is different. yes, but brodsky didn’t go down there , if this is a classic phrase that a poet is an instrument of language, we agree. it was the pass that said, it was the nubas who took it, yes. here, yes, not translated poorly translated fascia was little translated, but nevertheless, you still agree with people disagree. the poet is not a tool of language at all. well, because therefore, a is not a tool after all, and vice versa, language is his tool, as it were, this is his tool. this is his material that he works with, and from

which he can't get rid of. wait wait, it's a tool, but the tongue resists. yes, for example, i am fighting for the sacrament of the future tense. for example, why it is impossible to say by a flying ball an entering person, yes, but even where i fight, i take into account the nature of alexander savich's language. solzhenitsyn created. who are you extension? yes, but it still works on the material of the language. brodsky, in my opinion, argues. e, something that is not ashamed, not for him, not for the language, but simply, therefore, it is impossible in her matter, if we express ourselves by smells or telepathically ever bypassing the language, then we will overcome it, and as long as there is no telepathic poetry, the poet works in language on language, and of course. language is more than a poet, but this is absolutely accurate. and in general, language is the most mysterious thing, where all these grammatical categories come from. um, why is there no future participle? someone decided who?