damn, andrey, he is a very grateful son indeed. thank you very much. thank you, thank you. well, it was a podcast triggers, and you were with him, hosts tatyana krasnovskaya, psychologist, psychotherapist , psychotherapist psychologist sergey on ourselves and we heard the wonderful story of svetlana hello, i'm pilot cosmonaut anton shklarov this is a special issue of the podcast space stories today at my space station an amazing guest, this is an actor with whom i can speak the same professional language andrey merzlitin. today we will talk about cinema and space. let's have fun. i have a first question. i know that i am a graduate of

a space engineering technician. i guessed why they called? is this the one that is located in korolev not far from the energy? tell us how the choice fell on this educational institution. and in what specialty did you graduate, and anton nikolaevich first of all, of course, uh, i can say one thing, that choice. yes, just anton, but, well, you are not just anton for me, but i mean that the elections, as such, were the most an elite educational institution in our city, then it was called the city of kaliningrad, moscow region. well, one of the major iconic educational institutions was space engineering, so i graduated from school and directed my steps there to try to enter, because it seemed to give some kind of such a basis for the future, and only then we began to reveal for ourselves. the technical features

are that this is a technical school at the mission control center at e, an energy plant, where spaceships are produced, but at first it was, of course, the desire is just to get a good education, as a specialist. what kind of radio engineering is radio engineering of space engineering with the technical means of absolutely pure water, because one who has ever plunged into a world where everything is dictated. uh, electric current understands that either you believe it, or you never believe it anymore. it's like some people with religion. so with uh, you haven't seen it. i don't believe in this one. as long as the fingers in the socket are not judged quickly to believe that the current exists, so here. and what besides existence. he's there, he's there drips here it condenses. who what? why not like that there are such complex mechanisms. and so we went through it all.

what does he do as a space radio engineer? directly by the fact that in the second year, we sign such secret documents. we had such a top secret blog, b as we called it , only a separate block, where there were already cut parts of the spacecraft, on which we directly came to the study. how is it built? what it consists of , how, in principle, the process of rocket production itself takes place, how it flies not only antenna bloggers, namely the entire composition of the rocket spacecraft. yes, he is also ours. here, our scientists, of course, surprised us, conquered, but the cosmos still remains a little beyond the limit. because there are already some parts of the spaceship that have already departed, but it was all the same. that's how in the theater there was an opportunity to look behind the scenes. it was besides

being curiously interesting, the more curiosity of any uh student entrant. you should know anton that the first question that everyone is interested in is where the toilet was it was a sin for me to play along with this. we were all interested. they didn’t come to him where he is there. he sleeps, how he works, what problems he has, right? yes, we are the first to arrive. and where is all this space, or does he need it. yes, yes, there is a system of violets, we asked, in principle, yes, well, so we advanced, then, of course, but all this became more seriously more complicated and unconditional. when i was finishing the technique of building a space machine. unfortunately, this was the ninety- second year. it was an era when, after how rukh the soviet union collapsed and the space industry, and in the tutelage itself, because we were proud at that moment, when we learned an unprecedented event in the world happened, we launched, uh, the energy of buran and it didn’t just

happen successfully. he also landed well. it was a very important step, as if even to me now it is clear to a modern person that it is both a geopolitical and , of course, a scientific breakthrough. and on this high note, all this just happens to collapse, and we are left no one needs and the same even npo energy plant where my mother worked as an accountant. where was the flight control center , which the whole country was watching these screens and now showing movies how they are sitting, which means smart educated people are watching how this or that satellite or spacecraft is moving. it was here that we had one dining room across the road, practically nearby, and we could all see each other, only we did not have access. yes, and that's how it ended. uh, so this is the era well diploma. uh, got a diploma. yes, new times have begun. i kinda think about them maybe not worth it. you all know the nineties and with all the pluses and

minuses, which were more, but nonetheless . it was my youth and i saw only good ones went to college and got a former economic education. yes, a new buzzword anton in the ninety-second year , my fate also turned around. i was a cadet at the chernigov school. i was going to. well, to become a military fighter pilot, and in the ninetieth year in february they called the whole school, set up cadets for themselves and said, that means either take the ukrainian oath, or get ready to pay off. we are expelling you. here are the documents for you. wherever you want. go , moved to volgograd, arrived there, this kashchensky school. that's all, they restored me to the same course, in the same rank for the same plane, it’s narrowly simpler right away or yes, everything is there, i sometimes passed the exam or tests before and went on flights, thanks to this, the difference will end immediately after i just arrived in moscow i was sent to moscow to the academy and here's how the detachment gets into space, and before it was

e, the sets were closed. it was either we are pilots writing statements and yes, or here's how times er, well, how are you workers. eh, exactly. uh, space industry. well then they are a luxury with us. well, now we are talking, just cosmos, that is, who work at the enterprises are engineers, and they went to the cosmonaut detachment , it was he who was separate, er , the cosmon detachment of the cppk, the training center - this is a military organization, there are pilots. and if not pilots, then according to the military program they were not prepared for energy either. what kind of red energy is there at the enterprise in korolev, they had their own detachment. ah, civilians. uh, engineers, there were also astronauts, uh, the detachment is the mpp this is an institute medicine of biological problems. there biology doctors. well, there were always a few of them, there were only 1-2 people, and in principle there were, but not a single one was given to us as a candidate. this russian academy of science was some kind of narrow specialty property. uh. well, i was a pilot with a tactical aviation fighter

after the academy signed off and design testing and testing aircraft. then, already at the academy, a candidate of sciences , technical, defended himself this way, before you already join the detachments. how much time has passed in the detachment per month already with the exact plan, when will you fly? how much has passed since the ninety-second year since the ninety-second i was 2003, which means 11 years 11 years, that is , the nineties well successfully cut it in half to do it, of course, it is tempting to leave the army, because many, especially when here in moscow, uh, the guys left to open a business there, everything else. yes, but i understood in the nineties it was necessary to lead. it seemed to me that it would reward me to continue to study, and someday this cosmos flew away. only. well, in acting, i'm in hypov. how come so generally crazy too. well i'm kind of there long story long but i looked at vgik and found out that such a profession exists. and i'm

in some kind of these circles, and when not, it's already being an adult. why won't the actor help then too? or do i especially apologize for being replaceable, the same as no worse than the cosmonaut, who are these people, where do they live? and how they get there, in principle, is the same. i thought you wanted to be an astronaut. do you want to be an actor somehow so they recruited on the street. we still have to be talented. well, the same wife, talent from my father charisma if i tell you talk about space, so i heard it many times in my childhood, and then just recently i asked my father again. he was in the army not once passed the so-called tests for the selection of fighter pilots. and the so -called cosmonaut squad in the future. yes, and he says, i say passed one test. at first i didn't even understand. why such noise was impressed. they say they did not understand, they drove him away again. here are these, when they bind, they twist so. here is the pulse. he stands calmly, he does not rise, no, there is no plugging all this

do it, a- for the third time. then they took him somewhere else to say if you want to say all the data so far. what for and he went. he says berries would have told me, just was 100% prevented one seven- grade education. he says, as always will be. well , that's what i'm saying, like a class, the village did not have enough education. no longer in the army. how to complete my studies, who is in the army, most likely, it would not be, but it could probably, but it was already in the army. she was to make a decision of the commission, she did not let me in. so it could be surname. that space space would be, maybe dad would have flown into space, well, thank god how it happened. and do not consider it possible to pass them on to someone legendary film about soviet intelligence, friends, it is not harmful to choose the place that they are doing in russia, which caused uncle heinrich's goodwill towards you. i think we are working. you are

my future colleague not very much to deal with russia to request. can i have a copy of the case of the murder of engineer rolf urgently forwarded to me, schwarzburd aren't you afraid to stay alive? shield and sword may 27 at the first cabbage soup sleep yes, i will find you to eat. how does he remember the name of the dizzy helps to restore memory and

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one must read correctly must actually it's like taking a risk one must go there. i even have the courage to have. here, i, by the way, did not risk and did not pass. but now the leader i'm not saying i didn't pass. i still don’t know how, by the way , the presenters on channel one, the presenters on this first channel , i’ll definitely tell you, i, uh, to become an actor, well, since the film is already the twentieth. uh, april is coming out on time, yes, with all the preparations behind the launch. for- i didn't pass. he didn’t even look at such castes and didn’t even think about acting at all, in general, when you star in a film, well , it’s artistic, of course. there to shoot some documentaries about the space the astronaut comes to shoot something couple questions and everything in itself. i knew that getting on the set of the film was a challenge. it had to be done.

i would probably do that. by the way, uh, the director said that there was no use for space technology. i think there will be many more pictures, in short, shipyanka, but i don’t know if i have it, i’m an actor at vgik who graduated from space engineering. i think there should be some role in this film. well, there must be at least an episode somehow, so that in kaliningrad they say, well, andrey has reached the pinnacle of his creative career. well , by the way, in the film, they play a lot of ordinary of people. they are like me, i play myself as an astronaut, there is a crew commander and in space, and in the film our specialists play a training center, doctors play doctors, instructors play and that's it. we didn't get to ourselves. everything is now. i ordered none i have everything now the very heart of him is now another dream. he said he really wanted to go into outer space again. before that, of course,

i tried to open everything. he kept raising everyone there whom he knew from all sides, but they didn’t give it, of course, this is hard dangerous work. and he has further, he says, maybe. mousse to fly longer so that there is more time to shoot, that is, well, 10 days were filmed from 12, of course, not enough, and you watch a movie about space, of course, there are loved and famous. yes, not fantastic, which pretend to be close to a real event, there are some that are not so much. well, this is our first time. yes, this is about leonov , this is gagarin yes, and so gagarin this is salute seven. here klin removed. uh, well, from our uh hollywood stages of apollo 13 armageddon, i like it, because he was filmed a lot in us, and where nu was training. i knew all these simulators all these buildings. well, comedic, of course. well, just wondering, there is something close to how, well, really experiencing. a

man in space. so it is approximately, as the film shows. i don’t know the world, there are some modern, uh, computers talking there. the astronaut of the neural network is all business. this is what artificial intelligence is. smoothly, we are approaching him, of course, not far off. yes, it will be so soon, and it will be, and he will fly and help. the most important. it just amazes me when here in outer space, the movie shows, it is such a number of some objects flying. the way it is. yes, miss is called space debris. if i think such a volume, it's scary. i think if we are already so washed up or in space, the topic is space debris. you understand, yes, uh, old satellites that are no longer in control, which are getting closer to the earth with each orbit. is it really already in such a volume of the extreme stage of the rocket. naturally, there are more and more of them and that's what they call garbage. the most important thing is that the e orbits of these e space objects, which

did not intersect on the press. this is calculated for each slop from 4 cm. any object that rotates around the earth has its own number. we track nasa also tracks and calculates orbits. well computers are all worth sharing as soon as. well, we have a common space station. and as soon as there is a threat, then, well, the simplest thing. we just accelerate the station by raising the orbit. well, this garbage flies under us and , god forbid, completely burns out its dense atmosphere. in fact, it's so interesting, in theory i have an interview. and i would not. so that's all here usually an actor. just tell me, and not exotic ones, you had funny cases of this and for some reason you need to talk about the acting profession to make it funny, but i want to ask, astronauts in general, there are some anecdotal cases, or it's always very only serious. no, well, without humor, of course, it was hard. we fly for half a year, so, of course, there are jokes and jokes we try. this is also called a team. well, maybe not every moment. well,

especially when we get together. we have tradition. let's get together on friday saturday. we are going to. well, on one e, we have , as it were, two dining rooms, two kitchens, for example. and what about a russian canteen or a company? no? it's just a place to eat at such a long table name in the russian segment. we are going, for example, on friday. we're just summing up, telling, who has any news, well, just in the evening people are going to get some tasty treats, they probably diluted the juices of teas, this is it, we sit and chat. in general, we discuss, and the next day on saturday we have to watch the movie moreover, here we are, according to tradition, each in turn to choose the film that he likes now it is very easy to find subtitles. for example, if russian films are on the topic of english, either vice versa or find russian subtitles to quickly put all this on a computer, and we have it, and such a screen that shifts is not even stretchable tablets, but such a big one is somewhere strong here. yes, there is, uh,

a projector. all we put sound there are speakers everything and sit watching. fine. what day is lost? it's interesting, you forget that you're in space that the first day is like this. i think they probably sat, apparently, it was possible to sit for 30-6 hours to look at this time it flew by two flew by. this is what you can watch all the time. if there is. eh, time, of course, and it doesn't matter. it's a very day always beautiful in the window. i think it was so interesting. no, look at the ground. well , of course, the most interesting thing is the earth, because it's always a different angle of the sun. hmm, and the cloudy season was definitely filmed. this is the favorite. uh, hobby of any cosmon when asked, what do you do the most interesting. well, what your free time does, no one will tell you exactly what to play computer games. maybe you can say something. well, sometimes he reads. well , there are very few of them, because not because we don't like to read, on the contrary, we like to read

, we are interested, because it's a pity to waste time in space. yes, things that can be done. then when you return, but taking a photo is already e. well, you won't do it. so look, i suggest you play with me. uh, one fun game in four flights. i took, well, hundreds of thousands of photographs of our life, different objects, and i prepared several pictures that i took, but i propose to look and determine in the competition this object , this may be a city, it may be a river, a mountain, and so on, but i don’t have you see something further we are certainly thieves, yet. i see so mountains and snowy peaks. and uh, does this lake stand out or is it obvious? yes, andrei was definitely here , was it kamchatka or what? no, no, i don't get it. i am the outline of a lake. i can't find out. well, i think that now it is one of the most

friendly soviet republics to us now. in the first world a church was built saying something. yes, i guessed this lake sevan the first time. this is a mountain. uh, i was too right now, right? was also. do you remember your trip from afar? yes , of course, 3 days, but these 3 days were such, you know, how you got it back and as if it wasn’t only in the photographs, you can consider it arrived 3 days. in yerevan, in general, in armenia, this is not enough. but although i traveled a lot. i did not sit still. and of course, i was and traveled around the lake, but it's all so touristy, as they are called detours, especially since you don't climb from above. you move a lot of people a lot of people. it is in space that you alone give in well to this hearts. and here it seems

to take a picture here. then i took a picture , took a picture and drove on well? let's go further. let's move on, yeah. wait, well, such a famous resort. this is an island in the greek sea, yes, yes. yes , i liked it, yes, in cyprus i liked it, but i also didn’t take off from above, i didn’t watch copters did not have. even if they have it on their flag or not, it seems to be half the same. i saw photographs of winter cyprus, they are no different from our snowy siberia. that really struck me. that is, the same literally snow pines in these ski resorts. i say, where in cyprus to believe him until it's not on the internet that he was surprised that this is true? well, you know the following very well. oh well, you drove me from above, of course, here i

have to guess what the winding river really is. moscow correct exactly need moscow and now i unfolded, the kremlin , wait, not like that. we just see the sea river. here, by the way, well, yes, if this is sheremetyevo, then this is just the northwest, yes, then korolev will show the pen correctly, i would have shown korolev earlier, it was very remote. it seemed to me that i was driving from some distant place near moscow to moscow now in general directly and, uh, they built such an overpass, right? well, if it’s like a rage, it seems to me that if you’re approaching very far to go along yaroslavka, then here, as you can see, yes, yes, mytishchi adjoins korolev straight to moscow yes, it will soon become new moscow and one more. and i wanted to talk about it, so

to speak about the contours of moscow. yes, this is the bay. this is sevastopol how quickly, but sevastopol i just recognize, because it is a recognizable bay, yes, and i spent the whole summer in it before entering vgik, and i lived, you know, how i moved on the ferry. uh, for a couple here on this side, on the north side. yes? and here , too, such a hill is a mountain, and i have always contemplated and, of course, recognizing the hill of an object. yes, this is vr rodina, yes, yes. here's another balaklava bays are beautiful. i was born strongly in balaklava and grew up, because my father is a submariner. well, yes, just before i played the captain of a submarine, but only from the northern fleet in the city of severomorsk murmansky and this planet can, invent the name channel one. well, they chased

me, i was not ready for this. andrey and i have to see you. well, as a professional, the question is, i had to play in a feature film. i played let it be myself, but it was still hard. that is i faced because she never prepared to become an actor discomfort was, firstly, that it was necessary to reshoot the same thing several times. i read it, of course, before i started reading it at the beginning. uh, the whole script. i understood what the film was about and how i imagined my hero, well, it's understandable. it's like, i'm the commander of the spaceship crew. well, who imagined? well, i looked from my point of view. what should he be or how is he? maybe i'm not like you, but somehow it ceased to be. yes, the climate says it's easier to play all the time. no, it's not the same phrase. here is the text. and you did not learn the text? and what is there to learn four lines of these four with a pen, i will definitely insert my word or the wrong information.

here we are again negotiating negotiations. there are some life hacks, there life hack only one experience experience full trust the director and only trust and humble yourself humble repeat takes to make it easier to stop. he was just trying to explain that when there is even the slightest hint that we are trying to play. it is visible and even becomes more enlarged in the picture. in the movies, that's what they call it on tape, so we play it anyway, but here this moment of the game is necessary, how can we press as much as possible. how can you be more assigned to the role in the organics. and well, how to play? this is very difficult to play, for example, such a tragic moment. yes, they are tears. and you're in a good mood. you're doing great. you are serious now. the easiest way to play the drama is the most simple primitive. that's when, for example, you have problems psychologically, and

you need to smile. to see a smile in front of your eyes. yes, this is the easiest game to play the easiest melodrama drama tragedy. here it grows further, and comedy is the highest level. and if you want to find the point where you're funny and you're in control. this is aerobatics. this is the most difficult orbit and not every actor has this skill and ability. yes, therefore , there is a tragicomic actor who is certainly respected. the same yuri nikulin certainly had the most powerful dramatic talent, but the level of internal clowning that he possessed was conscious. he, of course, is the highest of any praises there. well, that is, you still need experience. yes of course, but more than that you are more likely to become an actor because you have a lot of human experience. what pushed. for example, with our favorite actor, on whom we grew up, this lies in the field of what their personal experience is based on,

because most of them are veterans there. during the great patriotic war, they had a powerful dramatic and material life path that allowed them to talk about people with some kind of complex human experience. well, they could play these complex human characters, but the modern actor, who by and large, he didn’t hold a heavier spoon and this is not to condemn. you can't condemn him. for this , he had such a life for him, because the word was stolen by the phone, probably the biggest drama there was. well, in principle, here is a person trying to enter the world of classical dramaturgy with murders with turning points. and how to cry on the press some bulb is not there. this is all humor, yes, well, you have an asterisk there and that's it. you will pay somewhere. well, no, it will not help that you need

to remember some kind of life story. into a tragic personality resembling a face understand? imagine that your apartment burned down. i once saw an actor sitting like that, who can even imagine that he had her. in the frame it was the most stupid expression on his face, because he didn’t have it already burned out. yes, and sometimes behind the most tragic shots there is a very simple one. work inside a former person who understands that a person is not so difficult. it is complexly arranged, but to him very years with experience. you can get through. and you can use with yourself like a musical instrument it becomes, like a discovery, if you open it happens, then you can use it very easily in my life it happened. i had my first role in my life. she was immediately so tragic and did not demand this

understanding. i prepared for these prices prepared. i listened to a lot of music so special. i mean, i was set. i've been waiting for this change. i was ready in advance and therefore i wanted to say camera motor i issued immediately from the first stranglehold or whatever, well , let's do the second one just in case, because but i'm not used to the fact that we suddenly film filmed on film all of a sudden. for some kind of marriage or something, well, i was loaded, but once it's done, it becomes just your tool. you can even say craft. i depend on who plays with you partner everything depends, so good luck on the actors do not choose yourself or will be able to choose a partner asks, and who is the director? first i ask, do you know the director to read the script. and which of the actors is planned is very important. it is very important that you throw everything into a whirlpool. i had a lot of success with my debut, but still i manage to choose with her and yulia in the cinema.

no, i never crossed paths, but i crossed paths like this in my life, because i respect and very much i like it and i was at music concerts, maybe not enough. who knows that she is simply incredible, she sings beautifully, she sings strongly let's all sing, as they say , drinking songs, but to sing in such a way that she wins on the stage and that she performs on stage with the group. and capture the audience of the listener. this is what i witnessed and became directly a fan and therefore yes, well, and from your friends of your colleagues, of course, the director is singled out. klim shipenko. here, of course, he is one of the leading big modern directors. and i had the opportunity to tell him this personally, because i already follow all the pictures, then i take them off, but these three pictures in a row are different fires. he did at such a high level, that's for sure. i'm waiting for the release of yesenin's films and, of course , the release of the film is a challenge. cosmos certainly monetizes viewers a lot. here but also don't

forget that i would be a man also nature also magnetizes and it is very interesting and at every time there are some new people who are interesting to me, but they don’t make films about them. why, just like about the cone, it is always some kind of elite direction. so i think there will be enough space for everyone, both in space and on earth, so long as it doesn't go to waste. here is the desire to understand all this worldview the essence of the time of the world in which the person who you are lives . not your opinion of the past. but to rethink through themselves skip. it 's very interesting to understand. i think it will always be creative big, well, with such potential and basis for films, the modern cosmos andrey is for you. what is this, is this a fantasy? this is the technique

of people astronauts - this may be an unfulfilled dream. i take it as security. well, it's just that it's already becoming obvious that one of the levers of influence of one on the other is already going through the cosmos. unfortunately, the springboard is not only for the internet, i see it, but romance, of course. she just wants to continue already a person, as a romantic nature is interested in non-neighbours cosmos a long-distance flight to the next planets and, of course , a large number of films where the directors drop in. and what is a one-way flight in space to recruit a team, if there are the same, it turns out. space it will sooner or later become for us at home did not want to study. i don't want to as soon as we know more about each other. for example, an actor from a spectator , we will lose the fourth wall. we will lose

interest in each other. we all know there is no mystery and space should be left as an elitist type of human activity, that is, only some super scientists are super. uh , trained people with intelligence, both scientific technical engineering and human, because in the first place you do not show the human qualities of working in a team in such stressful situations. and it must be extremely hard and difficult to get there, of course, the film the defiance seems to violate it. this is history, and we see how people break through, but there is a movie magic in it . that is , roscosmos allowed such an experiment to be done and against the backdrop of this experiment. perhaps even some kind of scientific-wire work. yes, but maybe there will still be some scientific benefit , but so that i dream and wish that the cosmos was no, the cosmos is the home for our planet, and here we need to figure it out on the planet, as they say, but we are preserved on the site in the world

of all my friends. he led me to every person in this studio. each viewer of channel one has a mess at home, and on the site and on weekends we sometimes direct, or maybe once a month, or maybe once a year, general cleaning did allows dependency. learn to hmm clean up after yourself. in our country, even in public catering , some of the people do not always carry away, but some of these people are absolutely young to think about space and give advice. how we are there means to lead, how in general, how to manage everything, and this happens. it's just the type of people you need. anyway , let's dream. this is how you see a man in space in 50 years, what he will do in 50 years. uh, i suggest that a little more than 60 years ago gagarin flew the same thing only forward. well i think the tickets are in one end. well, i don’t know whether to build ships that can, of course, go to mars and back during a human life or not?

well, for example, if mars was watching, the plot is quite interesting. moreover, i know that the plot is written in our kid by a russian guy, written by americans, russian films were stolen. here is such a story, the plot , whether we shot a movie numerically, but i really like the fact that that guy ate potatoes, they kept everything even that the potatoes are planting points of view very good. very it’s good that our people wrote normal , well-thought-out, which are not fiction. all this will be invented, and to prescribe the same thing, how would a russian person behave on mars in the sense they fly? why not? and i like kubrick's movie, cigarette cosmos , whatever we called it. i also love such space paintings, but stanley kubrick's space odyssey is still the most romantic for me, the most looking ahead. e scientific and fantastic space odyssey, but nevertheless later, there are already 20-30 years and you look in picture. but as he looked ahead, all these

televisions, special phones, these video communications on the internet, then we looked at what he came up with. that's it. now i think that god everything happened. so, the whole future of space depends on this fantasy, which today we allow ourselves to be filmed or, uh, write in this or that high literature, but i have not yet heard any new uh, literary cosmic novels, and the film is everything there will be a film. everything will be waiting. so i wish you good luck. everything depends on you. you are closer everyone was connected by cinema and space. and even more so tv is already here, so thanks, everything will be fine now. unfortunately, the time is right, everything was in one breath, but you have to go back to the ground. today , on board the space station, i

was visiting the honored artist of russia , theater and film actor andrei merzlikin, and i am anton wardrobe, and these were space stories. thank you today my guest is the director of the moscow circus on tsvetnoy boulevard maxim yuryevich nikulin, the son of a genius. your dad is not there was just a man of genius, a brilliant artist, but also a front-line soldier who went through the whole war, so today we will talk about him. dad went to the front, he was not 18 years old, a special call. and he, in general, immediately got into the finnish war, and then, without having time

to demobilize, he got into the great patriotic war, therefore.