[000:00:00;00] yes, more and more bodies and with each new body found, the situation is getting more and more painful the official death toll now exceeds 160, the united states has repeatedly stopped for the purpose of terrorist attacks both inside and out in 1983 there was a terrorist attack on the american military base in beirut . then suicide bombers blew up a truck with a bomb near the building of the barracks, where the us marine corps was located, as a result , almost 250 us military personnel were killed. drawn up, but a disaster undeniably. the worst since the marines were in lebanon in 1995 was the bombing of the federal government building by an unidentified militia that killed 168

people, including 19 children. september 11, 2001 was the day that forever changed the history of the united states on this day, the terrorist group al-qaido carried out the largest and most bloody attack on us soil at 8:46 am local time in a boeing aircraft 767, hijacked by terrorists, heading from boston to los angeles, crashed into the north tower of the world trade center in new york 18 minutes after the first strike, the second plane crashed into the south tower. as a result of two strikes, the towers began to burn and a few minutes later both buildings collapsed. in addition, the terrorists made two more attacks, another plane crashed into the pentagon building in washington and another crashed into a field in pennsylvania. after the passengers tried to stop the terrorists. total in attacks killed 2,996 people these attacks triggered the largest counterterrorism operation in us history

. terrorist attacks may shake the foundations of our great buildings, but they won't hit the foundations. america, these actions break steel, but they cannot break the steel of american resolve america has become a target for terrorists because we are the brightest beacon of freedom and opportunity in the world we are together to win the war on terrorism as part of a campaign against terror the united states launched military operations in afghanistan and iraq and declared a hunt for terrorist leaders around the world in afghanistan, the united states launched operation enduring freedom, which was aimed at eliminating the taliban terrorist organization of its allies, including al-ka. i go in cancer the united states launched an operation that was aimed at overthrowing saddam hussein in 2011 in pakistan, the leader of al-qaeda, asama ben ladom, was destroyed, american special forces attacked the house where he was hiding for many years. he was killed during the shootout that took place. his bodyguards and american soldiers

after that, his body was thrown into the sea. when planning the operation, the us did not inform the authorities and pakistan the elite iranian general is dead, and the us iran is getting closer to the conflict today the us military killed qasim soleimani in iraq washington called it self-defense tehran called it a crime and swore revenge in 2020, the americans killed the leader of the iranian ksir general qasim, whose soleimani was considered a terrorist, although not a single terrorist attack by this organization was known, the us military committed rocket attack on his car. in iraq, where the iranian general arrived on a visit. democrats should be outraged about crimes. soleimani. they are the decision to end his miserable life. they sing, he was a general. he was someone else to begin with, he shouldn't have been there at all. he was called a terrorist by president obama, who

did nothing about it. there was one terrorist attack in the united states that was american service. couldn't prevent. although they had all the necessary information for this, which handed over. we are talking about explosions from russia at the aposton marathon in 2013, which was organized and performed by bratezernaeva, the fsb conveyed their concern about the plans of the brothers in advance, but the fbi ignored this. referring to the fact that it should not be unnecessary to crush people who, for political reasons, fled from chechnya to america as a result of three deaths and almost 300 people injured. i will say right away that from my point of view, that terrorism can never be justified and nothing can justify terrorism, but this does not mean that one can understand

and to approve of american night blindness. when it came to the roots of terrorism, i will cite lebanon as an example. i then spent a lot of time in the beret of the lebanese capital and in damascus and described articles for christian sanh watching an american newspaper, where i was then a columnist and from time to time for new -york times. and uh, i looked at what was happening in these countries in this region, and i was just amazed at what unprecedented speed the american military mission in taking a wider infusion, which was originally supposed to help peacefully evacuate the palestine minority opinion organization from lebanon and thereby avoid, and further motives for israel to attack lvan. how it gradually grew into an operation against the lebanese ites and syria talked

about how, all of a sudden , the attack on the us marines was unprovoked. uh, the wording that we often hear in relation to the military operation in ukraine , well, then i was taking it. i saw the american battleship new jersey shelling the villages that were in the foothills above berut and where, as it was supposed, there could be some positions of radical it, these positions, the foothills, where there were many civilians , were fired upon by huge shells the size of a volkswagen car, and then someone is surprised that, in general, many people in this region, so called the greater middle east and from saudi arabia to afghanistan to pakistan that these people have turned against

the united states this is still going on and i 'm sure we haven't seen the last chapter of it, especially after the taliban succeeded inflict a serious catastrophic defeat on the unit. state in afghanistan but lately terrorist attacks have been focusing on russia and this is of course related to the ongoing war in ukraine and the war most widely, dare i say the war declared by the collective west against russia where ukraine is a battlefield and is a pretext and the united states, in this crusade against russia, does not disdain the services of terrorists, or at least allows the ukrainian government to completely

dependent on the united states to use terrorist methods. let's see first, a special military operation in ukraine russia faced a wave of ukrainian terror unleashed by kiev among the victims of civilian officials journalists solovyova solovyov dugina simonyan. whose targets are they? well, let's say that we have already got a lot of people and there are such media public cases that become public. on may 6 of this year , an attempt was made on zakhar prilepin as a result of a bomb explosion. his bodyguard died, the writer himself received a serious injury and is still in the hospital, caught. in hot pursuit, the perpetrator of the terrorist attack admitted everything in 2018 to the ukrainian special services for 22

years. i drove into the territory of the russian federation the murder of the liquidation of zakhar prilepin, the method of murder, a remote explosion with two bronze tank mines on april 2, a brazen terrorist attack in the center of st. petersburg was blown up during the event, the military commander vladlen, the tatar performer of the terrorist attack, the detainee cooperates with the investigation, the traces of the customers again lead this terrorist attack to ukraine. this crime against civilians and civilians . this is a crime against a journalist of a person who was engaged in the search for truth and , in fact, not in words, but in deeds, fought for freedom of speech 2022 in the moscow region, an explosion of a car where the daughter of the famous russian philosopher alexander dudin was driving, the perpetrator of the terrorist attack citizen of ukraine natalya vovka , who disappeared after the crime in estonia according to the investigation, she served in the national guard of ukraine, the kiev regime. in fact

, he put himself on the same level with international terrorist formations the most acute groupings. a distinctive, i would say, a unique feature of ukrainian terrorism under american patronage. this is what is usually always said that terrorism is the weapon of the weak. and so terrorism was justified or at least explained that people have their rights, people have their own claims, and they have no other opportunity to fight for their rights, for their feelings, dignity. here, without using such disgusting terrorist methods, but as henry kisinger says today, ukraine today it is pumped so, uh, with foreign weapons and the united states of europe that it has acquired one of the most, if not the best,

armed army on the european continent , this is natural, apart from russia about the united states and the patron of ukraine seems to have no special problems with military power either, yes and economic power. why are such methods used? well, it's hard for me to answer that with certainty, because when you look at american actions, you have to admit that they often don't know what they're doing, but there's another reason. feeling impunity, the feeling that if russia responds sharply, it will respond in ukraine, and against nato countries, especially against the united states, russia will not take extreme measures, but here's what i can say about this lord, you are terribly

mistaken, this is not a threat. nobody gave me permission to do it. whatever threat you are, it's not even a warning. this is just my observation as a historian, as a person who graduated from the faculty of history of moscow state university and then taught for many years at the best american universities in berkeley columbia university johnsokovkins university everything i know about history to tell me that if you long and seriously use some kind of military methods or other methods of forceful pressure against a great power, then the answer is inevitable. it's not a question, but a red dash. it is not a question of what is in some secret circuit in the kremlin. at what stage and how will it hit the united states? it's easy if you want something to think about

while you're connected. the states allow and to some extent encourage such actions against russia until from now on, the united states cannot be safe and must think seriously about the possible consequences. it was a great game, see you next week on the air. to paraphrase a little bismarck politics, like diplomacy, is the art of the possible. hello today, we have gathered our thoughts about what is happening with international relations fyodor aleksandrovich lukyanov , international observer andrey andreyevich

sushentsov. historian political scientist of the house of culture of the faculty of international relations of mgimo i am vladimir legoid. hello gentlemen. hello there is such a thing as a historical distance and it is customary to speak so a little academically looking up that until some time has passed it is very difficult to assess the situation in which you find yourself. how much is the law. as far as the lack of historical distance. today it allows us to answer the question that i boldly put in the title of our podcast. what is happening with international relations? it seems to me that the historical distance, uh, allows you to look just different but that doesn't mean being. e inside the process it is impossible to analyze it. uh, another thing is that, well, as they say, uh, the inhabitants of the roman empire of the era of its collapse have no idea that it is disintegrating the ancient greeks, they did not know that they were ancient. and even the participants of the first world war.

they didn’t know that it was called world then, and therefore, of course, comprehension, uh, which events are built into the historical line , happens later. probably, but on the other hand, here we are now if this is how we live here and now it seems to me that at least for people who are professionally engaged in this. now it is more or less clear where we are going to build. we do not know how it will end, that is, we do not know the consequences of the consequences, we do not know. and what is it already more clear hmm here? i think that the period of uncertainty, which has disturbed many specialists, including the last 20 years, has ended and some clarity has come, at least in the dynamics of international events have high inertia. and what the future will be history there, in half a century, for example , textbooks on the history of international relations of this period will be written. and some will be named the starting point of the current processes. yes, there

in the mid-nineties of the last century. the beginning of the formation of a polycentric order , russian-chinese american relations, a bet on nato expansion at a unipolar moment and the accumulation of contradictions, which ended up at the beginning of the third decade, and first in the 21st century in ukraine a. then, somewhere else , they started to see such a systemic a crisis that who knows could last a decade edward carr describes in retrospect. true, the interwar period between the first and second world wars called it a long crisis, and it is possible that we are entering such a long phase into a phase in which there are no events of such jerks that change qualitatively and quickly. ah, international relations. how did, for example, the second world war in a relatively historically short period of time dramatically re-laying all the foundations of international military relations

economic legal ideological and the formation of a stable framework for several decades. and we are in the middle of a slow process in which all these foundations are also under question under certain pressure and inertia of these processes. god forbid, it would be slow and long, yet quickly reloading means some kind of catastrophe. uh, slow transformation allows you to gather up already. i mean hmm so slow. i think this is debatable. i agree that it was accumulated for a long time, but when the accumulated detonated, now everything is happening extremely quickly, much faster than you might think. and i also thought about the question about historical distance . distance does one important thing that we cannot do today. it does not need to be removed, because three things that are happening now and we think are extremely important

at a historical distance. they will disappear. it just won't. well, somewhere there small letters. and now we can't appreciate it. this is what historical research does. i want to offer you, but some a cross-cutting thought, which for me is extremely, it seems, important and expensive even let's say. here is life, as a theory, it lends itself to rational construction; life, as reality, does not lend itself to a rational state. so you said that well, more or less, everything is clear, in the late eighties in the early nineties it also seemed that everything was clear. period of historical optimism. bipo crash. the system of international relations the confrontation is over everything means democracy has won the world will become stable predictable wonderful bright end history further with all the stops, nothing worked, but about how you wonderfully said historical optimism was replaced by misanthropic pessimism. yes and now exploded into the market. that's all the same, how rational is the design

of forecasting. in general, perhaps you correctly remembered the turn of the eighties and nineties, and really then distinguish on the line and e perception was that it seemed that we understand what will happen next. well , because it would not just be, but we just know that nothing else can be, she is rut laid, than regardless of the relationship , whether we like it or not, there is nowhere to go. and the same phenomenon. uh, apply globalization has long been thought to be globalization. here it is, and in which everything is and nothing more can be. we can hate it, but it is, but it is necessary. due that not to us, but there were people who already then said something else and it is easy to find people who said no. e lord, it doesn’t happen like that and it won’t happen like that, but here comes the next question. uh, how should it be built, in general, intellectual and scientific, etc. communication in order not to succumb to this wave, because it is also relevant now

fedor very aptly noted that, uh, we need certainty and this intellectual construction of our life in the late eighties in the early nineties was based on the experience of the end of the second world war when for the first time, mankind consciously approached the results of a catastrophic conflict and said we will now come up with a stable world that will work according to the rules that we will propose in the key document of the united nations and stabilize this framework. perhaps for a long time. this is an alliance of the five main countries, they will support this framework and indeed. uh, except for the periphery, uh, international relations, this framework held on for quite a long time in the late eighties, there was, apparently, the same mm hope that now we are building the same stable world on slightly different foundations. ideologies means

american values, universal values, american financial other infrastructure universal and we will now live in peace and happiness, we must remember that the episode of the end of the second world war is exceptional for world history, if you look at the previous episode, let's say the end of the first world war. such an attempt was unsuccessful , we could not rationally build a system that would work and be stably maintained, previous similar attempts at conscious conservation, an established order. they were extremely non-transitory international attitude. your norm rivalry or leading here i just wanted to ask you, yes, this is the thought that you have already met. he says that the world today is returning to international relations to its historical norm. yes, that is, but do i understand correctly that, relatively speaking, i recently listened to the lectures of our wonderful antiquity scholar. surikov about the peloponnesian war. and i thought so, here it is. what time am i talking about now, really this is the same ancient greece or some, but are there such things in which this is

normativity on the material pyloponnesian war. actually, the classics of the theory of international relations derive the main maximums. this is to understand his realism in international relations, when countries compete with each other for their interests, their national understanding. it is in each case a very individual criterion of common sense is also very individual to treat them. eh, respectfully. uh, that is, our concept of common sense is not at all necessary. the same in germany, the same in the usa, the same in china , in india, and this requires respect. and i think, that cognitive realism allows you to more, or something, firmly stand on your feet, comprehending what is happening, what do you think, well, in any case, it creates the illusion of standing on your feet. i would like to develop this. i think andrei said a very important thing. it is important for understanding today that the second world war really

greatly influenced our consciousness, meanwhile it really was unique in many ways and it ended too, unusual, in general, there are not so many wars in the history of mankind, which would end in the complete defeat of one of the parties, the complete destruction of germany in its previous form, japan did not become in its previous form. well, you can say, too, there she is later , well, this left a very big imprint on further understanding, when the cold war ended, the feeling arose the same , only this complete rout, as they thought. i have comprehended not a country, but a certain system of thought, a certain worldview, all worldviews, except for one, and now this is the number of the worldview. it didn't even win. it just proved that others do not need. that's all that we have today is a consequence of such an end to this very or there interruption of the cold war, but this , after all, began to change quite quickly. this is

the idea of ​​the victory of the worldview, which will provide. here is what we have already said, yes to change. it has become. rather, the idea that the worldview did not defeat others began to change later than the signs of this appeared. well, for a very long time they tried to pretend that they were some kind. well, costs in the way of the right goal. well, although i don’t know yet, there, if we talk about the academic space, then already in the sixties the concept of political culture appeared, yes , which simply told us that institutions and processes. they will be completely different. work political institutions in different political cultures, what you said. yes, i hope, well, you know me here. er, maybe i'm not quite. here i understand, here is the question, when we associate with the same ancient greeks. yes, indeed, some basic things are basic patterns, they do not change, but this here is the context, life is about context. yes, he was fundamentally different.

well, that is, military operations there during the a war of athens and sparta. they did not lead to similar results at all, not in human casualties, in anything it was a fundamentally different world, it seems that the laws are different, but the consequences are for everything that hits the nerves. yes, what makes a person, uh, a person exists rational. yes, they were fundamentally different , some historians of antiquity say that even there there were goblin battles. they were more like sports. they could count the victims there, there dozens. sometimes even a few and actually some others were pushed back, they ran away, we won. then and here they are, so to speak, running around there throughout civilization. it seems to me that brutalization and humanization developed simply along two tracks at the same time. they walked as if together. first, more and more violent forms of confrontation and some kind of attempts to curb it. and about, uh, how the nature of war is changing. right now at 23.

there's a lot to discuss here on this subject. where it moves forward back to the side, because well those military operations that we are now witnessing, generally speaking, no one has been preparing for them for many, many years or even decades , it was believed that this was impossible. it remained in the twentieth century. well, please. what where when the summer series of games on sunday

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pervoy in the big game big bookmaker venline general partner of the russian premier league. today we gathered our thoughts about what is happening with international relations in the modern world fyodor aleksandrovich lukyanov international observer andrey andreevich sushentsov deans of the faculty of international relations at mgimo i vladimir grigory continue andrey when you talk about the school of realism, there are other schools, but between some kind of productive dialogue is possible with them and to what extent it is of practical importance for real diplomacy. i believe more meaningful for real diplomacy. this is an experience existence. in reality, we observed a lot of experiments in the nineties and two thousand years, especially from small countries that recently gained independence, which tried to import foreign policy, along with sometimes a diaspora textbook

by professors, where individual caucasian republics suddenly presented themselves as some kind of small western european country with a different neighborhood belt with a different economic environment with different security threats and tried to behave differently. yes, countries invent themselves in their own circumstances. but hmm, remember that each country is an experiment and the final is open to it and the elite. testing boundaries. perhaps they are this experiment. here they test the strength of the state. how did the experiment survive if it went through a series of major trials of intrusions of the revolution of economic er, turmoil. uh, some catastrophic natural events, and so on and so forth, and there are strange states with, let's say , some. micronesia yes, a very special foreign policy environment there is a state in africa there is a state southeast asia latin america for each of them in general the world looks a little different and for them, uh, some universals that we are talking about here and now they can

have their own shade, but if we talk about the basic, uh, postulates of the struggle for influence for the status of military-political rivalry, then in general they develop approximately according to the same rules. there are laws there, like, uh, there is current in the electrical outlet, if something is there, it means to climb with a sharp nail, then from there the current will strike and small countries, some here they had the misfortune to experience for themselves. what is it exactly, or tok e, in the 21st century, is still going through the outlet. yes, it's still getting worse. and this invention of the bicycle brings them back a little, uh, to reality and to the tradition of a realistic understanding of what your foreign policy potential is, your resources. what should formulate their interests, and this is always very subjective. you can express it in many different ways, and together it puts us all together. well, to some such ruler according to the degree of your realism politics is, for example, a country a small

country in the middle east, israel, which, in terms of the totality of its foreign policy resources and foreign policy experience in its short period of existence. can give a head start. uh, many long-standing countries. yes, they went through a lot of crises on their own, they emerged from them, continuing to divert such a rather active line to an external political one and what is called playing for their own e, their vital interests are constantly on the eve, e, and the measure of their e is such a tendency to in order to fall into the illusion, it is very low, strange in another international environment, where it is less threatening - they can afford the experiment. and tell me, but, uh, again, the changing context and conditions in which we exist, here is the information society, and about the influence. e of the new information space on domestic politics, well , dissertation diplomas are already being defended, with some i even had a chance to get acquainted. and in general, with all the critical attitude towards what they are trying to analyze, so to speak, but this

influence exists. here is the changed information environment. what impact does it have, and again on international relations, if at all it has to what andrey just said in many ways, but if in the most applied, then let's say the work of diplomats has become absolutely unbearable, that is, classical approaches, then there are these means, yes, because we know from books, but this is nothing and there is no discreteness and confidentiality. no, on the contrary, something faster spit out something like that fried than you, like, how much more it turned out yes, it's such a surface, but the essence on it seems to me directly related to, uh, the previous question about realism. and constructivism, which generally speaking is correct, means andrey called a small country that imagined itself to be an eastern european paradise. now, unfortunately, a long-dead, accidentally bright,

witty person. such was an entrepreneur in socks and banduki, yes, who left for that very country in the middle of the 2000s as a minister, went on reforms. he then brilliantly formulated. here is this phenomenon, when relations with russia began to strain there, then the boycott of the embargo and so on, and he said at some meeting. listen, let's imagine that there is a sea there is no russia there is a sea. we don't look at it at all. we live like this is a squintia. hmm, let's imagine that this is nothing. and it seems to me that this is the triumph of such an approach, which admits that one can imagine that there really is a sea. this is a product of the information age, because the informational ira she actually constructs everything around us. he's more disorienting, it turns out. well, this is further disorienting at first, then you get used to it, you already understand what it is. and where is she not to start diving into this sea? just andrei andreevich correct me. if i misunderstood you, somewhere i

met the idea that this is one of the characteristics of the information society, when you feel like a participant. yes, in terms of international relations - this is a complete illusion, because, of course, no actor international relations. there, an ordinary observer is not here in domestic politics, after all, this is a little bit wrong. or i'm wrong. well, how else to interpret this wave, when people celebrate some event on themselves. uh, in social networks there are certain images of their picture avatar, they perceive themselves as participants in this process. this affected my feelings of thinking i imagine myself as an actor, then these many are not actions. have many people up to the dashboard pressed the button, sympathy solidarity that's due to something like terrorist attacks, let's say, yes. or vice versa, there is some kind of celebration, uh, a major conflict. here in the united states of great britain, some western others are skilled in information warfare. countries. they

are now, uh, very good at directing, uh, the flow of emotional reactions of citizens, english-speaking in the west and other regions of the world, to the way they need to perceive what is happening in ukraine , moreover, an intuitive person. maybe u understand that this is the picture that he contemplates, it does not correspond to his deep intuition about what is happening, but since there are very logical, seemingly such constructions in a synonymous row, they are intellectually located. e opportunities to disagree with this. and i think that this is just another one of the means of international relations that you need to understand well and gradually master this tool. and swimming this environment. well, that is, one way or another, it still affects. it seems to me that it affects more than us. i would like, than we think, i remembered not so long ago there was such an incident. in general, at the meeting of the twenty in indonesia filmed it. uh, operators, therefore,

lagged behind in the public domain, a very funny skirmish between the representative of the prc, xi jinping. and, for example, canadian minister justin trudeau, but the day before they had negotiations. well, normal negotiations with closed doors and xi jinping contrary to chinese tradition in general. it was at the reception. he approached the work and said what kind of disgrace it was, why what we discussed yesterday today in your newspapers is not done the way it is, as they look at it and work. he sincerely does not even understand what the problem is grandfather, in general, why why is this happening not because the labor idiot is there or he is a boor, just for him, like a whole generation of politics. especially. he's pretty good. young well, sort of, well, he's a young young man, he's oriented legitimation is a constant report to the public, what am i doing? look here. so i talked with see, here i am, this is what we discussed. here i am to him and this one, contrary to the whole tradition. here, and

the axis is classic, but between us, we talked with you, this is confidential, but serious things and here is this clash. and this is just a consequence of the fact that the very people who put up avatars, they influence, because they form a mass that the politician is somehow conventional. maybe china sounded. let's talk about the east a few words. let's say sergeevich lavrov speaking here, and at the un recently said yes to the western minority, which should be more attentive to the majority. i remember talking to you, and on a similar topic, he said that we are all the time. well, a few years ago we were talking with the west, but the chinese are incomprehensible and don't like it very much. what awaits us here? i think our challenge is that the chinese and the other non-west perceive the russian western confrontation as an episode of struggle within the west, and we need to work with this perception until we are not the west, that we are there in the north let's say or what, we are the leaders of this