there, uh, it was hard to hit, i hit. i’m sitting somewhere close to the stage, but like this, i’m sitting straight on the floor, and i’m terribly choking with a cough , and i carefully take out a lollipop, which is against coughing and , e. see. who is this? the blackness speaks there. well, expand already, finally, your candy, he says, no, i didn’t want to say that. zhenya is me. i'm still funny because a person trying to be inconspicuous in the theater unfolds the candy slowly loudly. well well, the main thing is slow, it seems that slowness sells. here is a smaller sounding quick easy to do or when a young lady or ladies, and today here is a handbag in the theater. here it does it slowly. if you're once and for all, it's funny how a person tries. it's okay, uh, back to the text, eh. the text

that the person reads a this is a completely different text from what i pronounce on stage. i see that the other is not in the sense of a comma. in the sense of, as it were, its functionality, or something, yes, to its style. ah this simply literature he, and there monologue. it's the way i am i perform this on stage in a different form, this text cannot exist, as it is impossible to write down, it can be written down, but it is impossible to hear anything. e from vysotsky's texts, it's simply impossible to read them. if you don't know how, you haven't heard how he does it. i say all the time that i struggle with acting poetry reading. uh, because the actor has to somehow drag the blanket over himself. yes, the poem is ordinary, it does not need any performers, yes, or only you copyright. yes, this is it, it's all there. uh these same poets were still reading. it was not

unbearable for me. well, i just couldn't hear it. uh, adored was akhmadulina read it so that i could not hear it. just for me. it was very scary, as it were, yes. it was strange, extra very unhealthy. uh-huh well, from the point of view of some kind of norm, today yuryevsky read poetry, so yeah. what i wanted to say, please don't read this one at all. give him all the elements, just jurassic yes, because this is not. or is he what he doing? i can not read poems are never elemental. here, when you pronounce your text, this is a text that lives. there is also a pronunciation. yes, i say pronounce it quickly. but then this text is still like an implementation here, so by reading it i should know how you play it or not? to a lot of people. we

simply will not read for the reason that they saw me on stage and remember how i say it, they say it and we hear your voice. here or we listen to your voice it interferes. this results in inseparability. e author from own work in the role of andrei rublev. yes, so a clown, there he is poured lead. ah. no, not the same, they are the same no, not at all, uh, when a person reads. uh, well, prose, you know, this is not a monologue that comes from the first person, where i am a character who says something, but this is a book, well, the book should sound in your own voice, because this is reading, and the one who you listens, it must be with nature sozvonchenko's performance started there at eight nine o'clock. yes, to count on those people who are after work. yes he he must, well, how to empathize with understanding, yes, he must be able to, if possible

, he must certainly have some kind of education. k-circle of the corporate address to whom the social group is addressing it , some kind of this is not a lover, as they said in the nineties of life, for example, it may well be a person with a criminal past. just at least not a fool, and at least uh, who tried to break up with him. hmm, who understands the new life. here we are talking about morality. yes, that is the art of talking caps in order for a man i tried to part with the criminal, when there was this very tough period. this is the fashion for me, when at my performances in moscow and st. petersburg, in principle, this was not in moscow, st. petersburg. many fashionable characters came. here are these strange people there are 2,000 people who started something there. yes the beginning of the zero years. so many of these came, they sat, they didn’t understand at all and where did they get to? what is this? what fleet about what

friends about what job for a ride, about some i don’t know what children about what family in general about what there? well, what does this person say in general, i will interrupt you again, i will not forget your story, there was some kind of creative meeting, maybe even at the russian state humanitarian university at the university, where i served and still served with joy, where you told how in brazil e you counted the dog and in your retelling sounded. so here i am saying, that is, you are saying that this is a pause the translator translates everyone laughs or somehow there i don’t know how you react, i say, they translate the reaction, i say period, and that means there is a scene, famous, when boys, we don’t want to go to school, either mom, or grandmother opens the door, and it’s winter, well, eight or seven in the morning it’s cold, god, how reluctant. well, here is the russian man. well, he somehow understood anyway. yes, this russian man is russian there. the brazilian people asked

, they understood that, uh, that the boy was not well, because he did not want to go to school. and what is cold for a brazilian person? i don't know, maybe he's 15°, uh yes yes of course it is need to be changed. it would have to be such emotions, and not entourage . you have a lot of entourage of some such headsets with details, you need to work carefully, but you can never speak. uh, for example, there was definitely some kind of air temperature at that time. well, it's like the status of a play of some kind. yes, the temperature or how, uh, where exactly did this happen and when? hmm , that is, that it happened there, uh, actually in the year 1981, uh, in the city of kemerovo. and frost. it was minus eighty eight finished school. yes, very accurate. eh, remarque zhen, here's another story.

it seemed to me that just about from that moment, about which you just said that some sort of some people come, yes , which, well, that's something cool. yes, they should be offered something cool exclusive and sees a person who is one of many. yes , he says i am one of you. i am the same as you, i am one of you, i am no different from you , this is what interests you, and not because i am cool and sophisticated and so on, but here i am it seemed that for some border. you may have stopped being one of those people. no, i don't think i know what happened when we grew up moving to kaliningrad. i don't see anything else. there are no changes. yes , i do not think it's not a reproach. i'm just fast fast. uh, well, here's a paper-paper farewell. this is so this is exactly a person who is one of us from all uh-huh this is the experience

of any normal person of a close age to us it will also this performance will be interesting to those, this is also one of uh people, who are now 20, who are enthusiastically given to digital technologies. let's talk in conclusion just about reading our podcast reading and it is no coincidence that evgeny grishkovets called himself a writer. it's important that's what happens with reading. e forgiveness with paper - what year is it 10 years ago? this is 12-13 some kind of like this, yes, and then it, perhaps, was not so. acute. now it’s not something that is acute, but it’s just already even a farewell. e what is happening now in itself reading skills reading process love in general comes such a test. human never in history has a man read as much as he is reading now. well, that is

, i never wrote so many signs and not every day people wrote something, every day people even wrote some kind of note to me. and now they write a lot, read a lot of nonsense and write a lot of nonsense in messages. and after that they cannot read these same letters, it is only e in the performance of great literature. yeah, but the magnificence is different ; you don’t have to read it, but finish reading it, but they understood to give no, what kind of understanding? i don't understand, what do you know became fat. i think art in general. uh, this is the latest such stubborn touchstone of technology impossibility. yes , just well, argue and speed up communication. there you need to read comfortably the way you read. eh, you need to read the way you like it, your way , your way. if rhythm is no longer characteristic of you, if it has already grown in this , you are deprived of how to learn this? how to come? come on, how, uh, to meet your

literature with your book, which will reveal to you that reading is the highest pleasure, which is incomparable to anything. and in no case should this be replaced by an audiobook, because it will immediately be all this screen, well , a screen, especially to read the text, you can from anywhere. it's not me, i'm telling the truth, in general i think that yes, a book, of course, is a more perfect medium, but from any computer , even from a phone. you are reading the text. you are reading, mmm. you still consider the original, because you read the text for reading nothing irreplaceable. and now, uh, then uh, because the book has become the text has become so easily accessible, and it is at you in some tablet appeared monstrous. uh, occupation people read, uh, several books at the same time is oversaturated, and they do not finish reading a single book to the end of course and why ah? well, you already know what

happens next. i really liked the phrase from theodoradon is not unfamiliar. yes, he talks about listening to music. you must first get to where to perform it. that is, you need to make some effort. of course , i say that if a person left the house , a bookstore came, chose a book and brought her home. uh, and even if the book turned out to be a difficult difficult or painful book for him or not timely, there is still a high probability that he will read it to the end. and if he doesn’t leave the house, in 1 second he didn’t like it, he downloaded 100 great books to himself, that he won’t finish reading any of them, because he has no respect for this. he made no effort. here are those same efforts, yes, about which odorno speaks and, in fact, a bunch of carriers have been struggling since our second. yes , always the same number of days, but they want us for

to parallel all this, insert headphones into your ears. uh, my god, some other things that are from reading reading. this is the highest form of achieving art. that is, the highest form of achieving art, literature. in general, this is the highest art form of reading. this is one that cannot be combined with other routine activities. you can’t soar your feet in a basin, you can’t watch tv, you can’t latch your phone. yes, that’s it. it doesn’t matter even at this moment you can’t admire the landscape, even the most beautiful. if you read, if you count, if the landscape is just not present in the work that you are reading, then this is the landscape that arises in you, but it arises from letters from signs. this is a wonderful formulation by evgeny grishkovets, which testifies directly to the topic of our podcast, because nothing can replace reading, reading makes us human, reading is the original art, like poetry, which existed before all other arts

and e. i am very grateful to you for this conversation, because a lot of my jingles are verbal from their slogans. i say, for example, what to read, because everything that cuneiform papyri. they are available to you , it doesn’t matter, it’s important, it’s not like uh, this is an excellent judgment for some reason. we, if i explain to many, why literature is the highest form of art? everyone wants to see the original. the original is either in the museum, and the picture, or it is somewhere in the philharmonic, where you still have to get on monday to monday. the museum is not open. they work at night and don't let you in. and you want to see it at night and you, and you need to see the picture, it’s impossible to see it, you take this dear one of yours and at the same time, even if the text is written on toilet paper. it's still great for them. uh, read uh, read literature yevgeny grishkovets

i thank yevgeny from the bottom of my heart for this conversation. thank you thank you see you on our podcast. well, to you, our dear interlocutors. as always, and with the same unceasing pathos from the same intonation , i say, read with pleasure, dear friends. hello, you are watching the podcast triggers and with you its leading psychologist, psychotherapist tatyana krasnovskaya, visiting the beautiful svetlana what are we going to talk about? hello, let's talk. about my hypertrophied

maternal love, even you yourself evaluate it this way, to be honest. yes, i appreciate it. this is how i see and feel svetlana , please tell us a little about yourself first. how old are you? i am 50 years old? i live in moscow and i am a mother to my son. now it will be 30 years this summer. do you live together. it hasn't been a year now. we don't live together before we lived together. yes, he got married very early at 17. his wife's son and i lived together for 12 years. at you have good nerves svetlana, or maybe a very great love that could survive everything, or i so wanted my son to be so happy that

i didn’t pay attention to everything else, probably, everything that concerned myself. okay, let's get back to the request. how do you feel? why did you call your relationship with your son so defined as my hypertrophied love. yes, probably, because there is little that interests me more in life, except for his life, and this frightened me very much now. and because, unfortunately, the son divorced his wife. in the fall, he left, and now he lives his happy life. he is an adult self-sufficient. and i realized that he is in my life in general, there is nothing, because all these years. well, how old is he there for almost 30 years to be a mother. i liked it so much. i loved this role so much. i don't even know what it's like to not be

a mom. it's all the time to be anxious. it was taken care of all the time. it's all the time thinking about what else i can do to make my son happy, joyful, to everything was fine with him, so that, god forbid, he was not upset, because if he gets upset, if he gets upset, it will be very hard for me, what will happen to you, i will be 10 times more upset. it seems to me that your description svetlana of being a mother, but slowed down in her development, because you describe what it is like to be a mother and a child. you can be the mother of a child, be the mother of a teenager, she says, mother and adult man these are different mothers, and everything seems to be different there, and you describe the mother of the child to worry take care. there are no words, you are right. but it's

true, why can't i see that my son is an adult self-sufficient person, why? i don't want to see it? well, because while he is a child, you have a growing hope that he needs you, and an act since there is nothing else, then this, in fact. the only place where you can realize yourself, i would like to say, as a person, but not as a person. yes, but at least you can realize yourself then with this identity, i am the mother of a small child. well , as it were, she completely wins back your the need to be needed. svetlana, you said that as if in your life there is nothing else but your son, but is it really you who work? what does your social life look like? yes, i work. i love my job very much. and i have, i guess, a social life. i have girlfriends. i have friends. hmm i

also have a mother, whom i also take care of and take care of her like my son. and you are successful in your work in what we do. which one can you rate? uh huh, what's the job? what do you do? i work in one big publishing house, and i run the travel departments. yeah, even that is , you occupy a fairly high position. yes, i really love my job. and as if it would be difficult then to say that there is nothing else, other supports. you have a different social life and there is this truth. maybe i meant something that i don't see how. another woman yes , maybe, i'm realized as a mother, as a person. well, tell me, in general, about your decision to become a mother. you were 20 19, in fact, it turns out that i was 21 years old. yes i never i wanted to have children and, well, somehow at the age of 21. i

did not want to have children to give so, well, yes , they did not want to have them after 21:00. well, i guess i didn't have that desire. for some reason. i don't know even it's hard now, unfortunately i had a tragic uh. experience i have the first son died. at what age is the child and it was a very difficult period. i was very worried about this, and then let's talk about this child. tell this pregnancy and the decision to become a mother for the first time. you know i can't tell what it was some conscious choice of pregnancy. yes, there was a pregnancy. i was married. i loved my husband and had sex with him necessarily well. as a result, children are born. let's look straight ahead, and

now you love having sex. and at some point you will know that you are pregnant. that's what's happening at this moment. i decide to keep this child. that is, you still have the idea of ​​leaving not leaving. do you somehow live with her or do you discuss it with someone? with mom, mom, of course, was for sure that i gave birth this child, and in general, everyone wanted. and what words did mom find that you also decided that i wanted this child, i was not sure at that moment that i wanted to live with this man, and therefore the whole pregnancy. i had such a state that i don’t want this child, i’m afraid to give birth to him, because as it goes on, then it will go. my life it will be like already for me. like some. well

, spoiled, or something, fate, that's how i go on, apparently, i already wanted to divorce my husband, and i was afraid to give birth to this child uh-huh well, during these 9 months , there were no cardinal changes in relations with this man, as far as i understand. then why didn’t you, for example, have an abortion, after all. why did you listen to your mother? she said, i will help you, i don’t worry, of course, my father and mother supported me all the way in this expression of the child. yes, then i give birth to a child and unfortunately, after 12 hours, he dies. that i already wanted him, how at what point did it happen, what did they want? i don't know clearly what women do during pregnancy nature has arranged certain changes. yes, a woman in the ninth month of pregnancy usually already understands that the child will be reborn in any way, yes, and nature arranged it in such a way that the biological

processes in the body that you could recognize or which you could evaluate also change. like the desire of this child. well, that's great, isn't it? yes? and then he is born and something happens. i don’t know, you looked at him there, but for some reason he was ill, for some reason his lungs did not open, that is, yes, he was born on eight months old and the body weight was large and did not tell so to the hospital, and you found out that they were running out. well, of course, i had a tantrum and who had a great sense of guilt, how loved ones reacted, but this tragedy was great for our family. wait before we move on to the tragedy of the family. i want to understand how a woman who lies in boxing feels. there, i don’t know with other women in labor or alone, yes, and you and your grief alone are not there, no relatives somehow. they probably support you, but 20 is how much 30 years ago there was no mobile communication, and everything

connected with it. here you are, you are alone. you have learned that the child has passed away. he must have been in the hospital for some time. how did you handle your grief and did you experience it or what did you do? i cried a lot or not myself well. you talked to someone about it. no, doctors came to you, maybe psychologists also existed 30 years ago. that is, no one helped you to contain this feeling. wow what have you done with that guilt. yourself for that thoughts were not like this child. i thought, yes, it’s not because i treated this child, so it happened. you managed to forgive yourself for a moment. i'm on my way to it so to speak. oh, well, at least it's more or less

clear. i would like to ask myself. at that moment, when you were already in the hospital, you and your spouse at that moment somehow discussed. what will you name the child? you knew that it would be a boy or a girl discussed, that is, you somehow made some plans that collapsed at that moment. you watch the podcast triggers and its leading psychologist tatyana krasnovskaya is with you, and our guest is svetlana, who found the courage to sort out her relationship with the son of the death of her first child, your son was born. thank god quickly, yes, it was fast, because i didn’t really want a child. now i really wanted a baby. it was simple. well, such an already obsessive idea is something that you promised yourself. and the child was born from

the same man. yes, i still knew that i, most likely, would no longer live with this man, it looks like a very difficult relationship, so i really wanted this child. not just wanted you want it still and still want it, but just strangely tatyana asks the right question. if at this moment you promised, for example , you know an oath to yourself, i will always be there, i will always help everyone with everything. and he, apparently, will be the happiest child in the world. have you heard anything about manya grandeur? how is that? well, it's such a good psychiatric diagnosis that describes

a person's schizophrenic behaviors. well, yes, according to another person diagnosed with schizophrenia mania, grandeur, like me, for example, he worked in a mental hospital there were napoleons. there, i don't know, gorbachev. that is, there were such people there. there was one hour. unfortunately he, but if they were there, then i'm sure, i'm sure that yes, there were mothers of teresa maria, anyone else. well, that is any form in the best mothers. there was one man who, uh, conquered me, then still and still remains my idol, who every night, or rather, every morning. he woke up a few minutes before dawn. despite the fact that he didn't have a watch. he went up to the window and lit matches and brought them to the window and i asked him once what are you doing this happened right through the tension of many years. i just got

there, and he was the only patient who was allowed to have matches. he said, like what, i light the sun. and so every morning. this man lit the sun. he was absolutely convinced that if he did not wake up or oversleep, then he, accordingly, well, the sun would not. this is what you are doing , plus or minus the same thing. you every morning ignite, the sun that she shone us and warmed your little boy, so that the rain irrigated him there, i don’t know, and so on. well, look. it already does it. so this is pure water. our so to speak, we do not increase. well, just understand, this is not a diagnosis. well, this is such a complex of omnipotence called to forgive a little bit in your life. this is an omnipotence complex and, of course, having promised ourselves such an oath, yes in ourselves , such an oath and return, because being

committed to the oath, we convey ourselves as a woman. and why did i tell her that i wanted i would like to say, as a person in realization, but no, you are realized as a function next to this oath, but personality in this, well, because personality is still a broader concept. yes , definitely sitting, a beautiful woman, a successful woman, a woman, educated and at the same time with everything, which like as you originally said that this is all that i have life. and you are functionally close to that oath. but it's been there for 30 years. okay, the first 10 years. i still agree. perhaps it should have been possible, although not sure, but then the next 20 years, where you could become a happy woman beloved woman. i don't know any woman by any astronauts. yes, you chose to be true

to this oath that i will always be there for your story it becomes. as if now i will say it directly. rudely, i can’t pick up another word for a pawn in this game, because your whole life is his. she is in order to keep this oath to be committed to this this oath, and as if his life, he cannot live his life, his life becomes wrong important as the idea continue this vow. obey it directly. all the rules of the game spoil the mood. yes, his life is his life. it turns out a sacrifice in the name of the life of that dead child. you make him live the life of a dead child, and therefore you idealize from all sides, because that child died and his life can be imagined in different ways, but in fact, if you look at your relationship

does not allow, your relationship to develop, yes, that is the ones that you are don't let make you a mother an adult man, and he will essentially become the son of a woman, and, as it were, they don’t add up there either. just a new stage of relations and this is underdevelopment. she disturbs both of you. i hope that now, when he left your wife, he left, well, as if he is just starting a period of growing up, as i hope, which you will have to face, where it is important for him to face these challenges, go through those areas that you close your love your care your attention. it is important for him to go through these difficulties , it is important for him to take care of you. take care of your mothers well look there is good news that despite this omnipotence complex on

this whole story about omnipotence. he still got out. that's for sure. it's true he got out. that is, it turns out such and such power. no, gone your influence does not extend. in fact, it is an illusion on him that you can do this, but he lives his life separately from you. i'm happy. thank you. you are already beautiful, mother svetlana is simple, but you can’t be too good a mother, because too good a mother. unfortunately causes no less injuries, but a man than a bad one. mom any mother, in general, the cause of all psychological problems a and mother's love. on the one hand, it is support like wings, but it is a lasso. which does not allow a man to be a man boy, please, well, well young man. i still

agree there, but still you must need me. there is such a concept of psychology good enough mother. and that's it. you say things that i somehow have to no take it take it. you will accept it. you have no other choice. and here is the question maybe like you can act in a new way now how can i act in a new way? how can you act? you are now living with an older man. that is, in your universe there are adult men who, in general , have nothing to do with your previously born child, my grandmother loves my mother very much. such a family, respectively, mother,

father, daughter, his daughter. there she married for a pregnancy. and in this family there was a great tradition for mothers to love their sons very much. this is such a generic program. now it’s completely respectful to her family, because my grandmother loved my father very much for her son, and she lived and laid down her life. changed and admired it was like this. here is a cult, yes, here is a mother, here is a real mother. my mother, she is exactly the same, m-m, my older brother loved me. and just

like that, she loved us too, everything for us is a lot of care a lot. guardianship is absolutely and it was also a matter of pride that like this. so we had a difficult period, very difficult, my father had heart attacks. brother got sick very much. unfortunately. and at this moment i also have a child with them yes, the child died. and here andrey is born and it is as if the sun is rising in this family. yes , because everyone got their share, well, like love, yes, and they were also able to realize their

love, and it was very big, really happiness, in our seven. we always thought that this was some kind of salvation for our family, because andrei was born because each of us had this opportunity. this is how to love. like this right in the third face. yes, they were born. andrey wants to say poor, because further, accordingly, all those hopes that were destroyed on him are right. yes, there is the father’s illness there, the death of the child and it means to him, respectively, they hang all this and say. look, now we will all love you. and you should be happy. yes , and god forbid, like it or not, should be happy such violence in this sense. and of course then i'm sure every one of them. there's a family holiday you've always discussed the topic of his birthday day birth. yes, on his birthday they told that here, but here he didn’t live there and how it would have been, probably, differently, and now you understand that

you it was in this way that you, in general, placed on him the sacrifice that he had to all this time bear to let go. well , as if everyone had already played their roles. everyone has already played their part. it is enough for you to be, as tatyana said, a good enough mother, and a good enough one. mom, this is mom, who is nearby when necessary, but does not interfere when it is not necessary, when she is not asked, he tells me he never seems to do anything. didn't miss. well, this is because, apparently, it was so for him, and so, gentlemen. to stop means to distance yourself. and just watch what happens.

and i don't know how it all happened. yes , it seems to me that in my life there was not much room for men. they were all on the periphery and , accordingly, now it is necessary. i would just like to ask now is there a relationship or not? why? why because what's old once? what's wrong? yes, somehow. it was losing her close. married does not add up. yes so than the rich. i thought that three times is probably the maximum program is not enough. i’m already the point. i’ll tell you to get married, you don’t have to go to get married in order to be in a relationship, you don’t have

to leave. especially at your age you are allowed. thank you for your health, because you can build relationships that are quite distant, but at the same time they can be quite open ; what's the worst thing you can say right now make it start, cataract stands. here, don't do it. better start a relationship in this sense and enjoy your relationship more than that, kind of and watch how it will do. andrey, your task is to be just witnesses in his life. but not the sources in your life anymore. to be honest, i really hoped and hoped that i would have grandchildren, and i would start living as grandchildren. can you take a child to an orphanage ? you can call him grandson. you can name it whatever you like. you are free in this sense, that is, as soon as you free

hands from andrew something will appear. i don't know how it will happen, but something will appear. our task is to release it and stop holding it. i will tell one story that i witnessed, i was sitting with a group of my guys with whom i came to kathmandu and before going to the mountains there. we were sitting in some cafe in the city and well, we spent several days there, because we were waiting for a pass. and in the same cafe they drank tea in the evening, i watched such a picture at sunset. family, swallows have already hatched chicks, the chicks were already the size of adults. individuals. not in the evening, everyone sat on the same wire and there were four chicks there, both mom and dad. well, how would it be, if you are not an ornithologist, it is not clear who is mom and who is dad, yes, but by behavior it was obvious who the parents are, who are the chicks?