here is a very interesting thought. you touched on this. andrey spoke about this. there is a brilliant wording there. he quotes, the great civilizations of the state never perish due to external shocks, rather than commit suicide. and once in the center of national interest, when we discussed such issues, he was present there. here dmitry will confirm. i hope the georgian professor, who began to speak and says, well, we defeated the soviet union and so on. i interrupted him and said professor of the soviet union you did not win the soviet union the soviet union committed suicide and you know why dmitry is now they are pursuing this policy , what andrey is talking about because once they managed to do it, the soviet

union was really destroyed from the inside, but now i want to end my speech on this positive. thank god that today a significant part of this fifth column either fled the country or hid. and therefore it is no longer the same forward when the weak state power was torn apart under gorbachev in the late eighties and early nineties. more consolidated power more consolidated society and outright enemies within society, at least they are expelled from the media are expelled from the political process. and in general, today already. eh, starting somewhere in the middle of the 2000s , it was no longer embarrassing to say that you are a patriot. and before

that, if you said patriot all the time, people, like this adamach kovalev, were talking there and others. well, they found one stupid phrase in tolstoy's brilliant book that patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels despite the fact that these people. all the time they glorified the country of america, where patriotism begins in the morning with the raising of the flag. in the evening. they lower the fleck and peck all the time in all public places in love and devotion to their country. this is a very good way, a very good idea, on which we will end our program. i’ll tell you, just one thing from myself, mr. blinkin, he just listed everything from his point of view, american victories how russia did not achieve its goals in ukraine, how

it was possible to unite the collective west, and how they, uh, prevent russia and at the same time china from developing normally with the help of sanctions, and everything was listed some of this, however, something uh is exaggerated and perverted, the main thing is not in this, as if any half-truth, but mr. blinkin did not have another country medals hmm they lived they lived without that last vitkar. hell, it's calm enough. no one particularly touched them even when russia china did not agree with them. in general, they always showed caution and restraint, because they understood the danger of international confrontation. and this is the current situation. they apparently do not see in the biden administration that it is dangerous not only for ukraine , not only for russia that it is dangerous for

america, they absolutely do not understand that they have become involved in a situation that threatens not just ukraine but the very world order that is so good have been working for the united states for many, many years. if anyone can say after that that they are not dangerous and the madmen i would like to hear the arguments. it was a great game see you. tomorrow on the air in kiev visited angelina jolie sean penn whining jessica chasen stiller sell the toilet on which sat angelina jolie the toilet say you are rich and famous in the war zone raise a lot of questions. you are my hero. you left a great acting career for this. this is what hollywood stars present to you . we are talking about hollywood, which

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kazansky on sunday at pervy bet on winline is more than just a bet of 2% from it goes to the development fund of your favorite club. support your favorite club with every bet. hello e i'm dmitry bug here in the podcast. let them not talk, let them read, and in our podcast, we talk with various wonderful interlocutors about any reading options, so that you do not read parchments, e or modern manuscript readers or

your old letters, classics or modern literature. still, we need to discuss this, we argue who exactly reads. who makes literature. who writes, we talk about what to read, but today we will talk about a very special topic. and how does reading happen to us, what with this happens as we read reading. it's part of consciousness. this is part of our thinking of our intellect. this is what we will talk about today with our wonderful guest - this is tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya , a specialist in the field of cognitive sciences. hello dear tatyana vladimirovna, hello. i am very glad to talk with you today, when i was choosing how to introduce you, then, i settled on the definition of specialists in the field of cognitive science. it is very narrow and at the same time wide. i would say that it is rather wide, because uh

the cognitive sciences include many different sciences, therefore philosophy, of course , because if we say awareness, then where without philosophy they even include mathematics. biology is fine, of course. one could say that tatyana chernigovskaya is doctor of biological sciences doctor of philology, but the main thing today is cognitive science. as you, of course, understood. well, the root of such a semi-familiar hypnosis, i know to drive, the assiology of knowledge. when we spoke with you before the transfer, i remembered hmm how alexander vasilyevich pyatigorsky is our great er, humanist researcher of buddhism philosopher, er, presented his book, being no longer young. he said, so, i came here and i see. uh, two ladies talking. one speaks. oh, how difficult it is to live, and the other answers her.

and you take a philosophical attitude, do not think wonderful, the definition is brilliant, given that he is imam dashvili, and separately and together they repeatedly wrote about the enormous labor of thinking, that it is very difficult to keep the thought, that the very process of thinking is very difficult regardless of the topic. and we don't even realize it. yes , because we often think about what exactly we think, yes, what's the topic. that's how it all happens in us, by the way, a very difficult process. i tried somehow to engage in such introspection and think about how i think it's almost. can you know things from tolstoy, which we will talk about today? i hope u in the story. uh, boyhood is a genius piece. i remember him almost from memory. it sounds so my inclination to the abstract. e thinking drove me to the extreme. for example, i thought about something and

created questions for myself, and what i was thinking about and answered. now. i think about what i i think, and now what am i thinking about, i asked myself. and now i'm thinking about what i 'm thinking about what i'm thinking mind over and over again came point wonderful this is generally called recursion. i mean, if we translate this into our avian scientific language, then it will be a recursion, when here is one in the other in the other, this is what we call this. it's very difficult. it hinders life. look here. for example, i am looking at tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya now, whom i respect very much. i love him, i love to communicate with her , and we are no longer about you, but thinking about what is happening to me. is happening at this time. yes, i try, yes, and that's it, and you have already dissolved. i don't think it's right anymore. but that's the way it is. we know this, and we dissolve so much when we read, in short

, soon we will be in the subject let them not speak, let them consider. yes, yes, and in general, when in any art, we, uh, drowned. yes, that is, well, as if you were already gone, but it's very difficult because, here i am recently, and i thought how difficult it is to listen to music. i mean, not hits. yes, but seriously, and the music so that you are not carried away by the flow of your own of your own thoughts, so that you do not cling not to some external physical landmarks before your eyes, not to internal ones , which is more difficult to cling to? you know, i was once simply plowed by the phrase of theodor adornu. well, he is also a musicologist, as we well remember, in addition to all his other talents, and he said an amazing thing. we are now getting closer to the topic of technology, about which i was going to ask you, and he said, so that in order to

really hear the music. you must first get to where it is performed. oh what after all, brilliance, after all, of course, live music and that of any even very good. uh, the device is pouring. it's a completely different effect though. although physically. this is almost impossible to explain, because these modern devices are, after all, of a very high class. well, yes, yes, but that's not it at all. there is oneself somehow has to grasp. this is a living situation, living life. i think the reason for this is that you understand that this is the only time here, and it won't happen again, when you come to the symphony concert. you you understand that this music will float away forever, even if it is recorded on a tape recorder, that is, tarkovsky said andrei tarkovsky spoke about captured time. uh-huh, that is, well, we remember that from eisenstein

- this is a montage of a comparison of different plans. and for tarkovsky it is a long long misan. the frame is like a mirror at the beginning of the film, where you find yourself inside this life. that is, you have to impose an artist. now these by the way, about shamans, by the way, about shamans. we also talked about it, really, because they some of their own, but very strange instruments that they themselves are not aware of, i think. they draw you into a different time into a different space, yes, that is, you are something else, this is some very significant transition. in general, to be honest, uh, you know, it recently occurred to me that it occurred to me that if we all finish our game, and there will be no more people on this planet, and then something will happen and either there were some intellectual and perhaps more moral

beings will fly in from other e-universes and get infected here. yes, and here they are if you look at what is left of us, then, i think, but with amendments, but still the main thing will turn out to be artificial. of course, i seriously think this, of course, my fellow scientists will tell me no. well, you forgot einstein there, that's all, i didn't forget anything, but that's what no one else can do. and only man can create worlds, and worlds are art. and it can be said that art is the last refuge from the algorithmization of technologization. here i am talking with students, but no brief retellings, well, i drank a pill and i realized that it would not work for karenin. it’s even funny to say, but, but it’s funny to us, because we are brought up in approximately the same culture, we understand, yes, this is, but of course,

such a conversation is to be conducted with people who are already in another world. i mean, didn't speak posthumously. well, it's like a different environment is very difficult, because you don't even understand how to explain it. there is such a person, stephen pinger, who, well, these books are translated into russian and he is very unchomsky. their omsk, of course, is smarter than him there chomsky politics linguist. well, in short , uh chomsky. of course, it is not comparable to the larger one, so, uh, narcissistic steven pinker. uh, in several places, writes the following art is like purges. he writes that, in principle, if e art disappeared, then in general, nothing special would have happened, because the main things are not there, the main things are such that the cartridges are there, yes or measure and weigh. here, and it's like,

when you're already tired of real life, yes, you can look at art. here, though you shoot me a. um, i think it can't be the other way around. art is exactly what distinguishes and moving on to our topic. and of course , first of all, writing, in general. most importantly, we don’t know geniuses, who invented the needle, for example, who the knife, well, we don’t talk about forks, because it appeared very late, yes, but there was some kind of genius who came up with the idea hmm that’s not good, when all the knowledge that you have accumulated will leave with you, it would still be nice to take care of your relatives and leave something for them. well, that is copying reduplication. uh, you know, once, uh, nikolai grintsev. e now chelengur, son, the youngest son fell the chakra himself e, asked me do you read

plato and i say, i read constantly. yes, and then calm down about e-books, because, after all, plato was unhappy when they copied, reduced, replicated, or rather socrates, well, of course he was taught. yes, and that is, it is necessary to learn how to simply walk with him next to socrates, and they were right. and they were right. oh well, that is the great inventor. he first hmm multiplied replicated something later and language typography, now the computer, well, let's not talk about watson crick and the double helix. and dna but uh, it's a trap how would you evaluate the two events of the last month on the one hand. uh, the great american technologist. e electric car, well, the check is quite bright and so on on the one hand. he calls for limiting research in the field of

artificial intelligence. and in a few weeks, probably, yes, he gets permission uh to do experiments on uh, neuroscanning. it is so indeed. he received this permission. this is contradictory. uh one to another. is it a dead end or not? or is it progress it is my own fault that i uttered the word progress in the first place. uh, in general, i doubt that there is progression, except for technology, of course, technologies have a yoke, after all , from the fontanka next to where i live . i will simply kill anyone with a washing machine, because without it it is impossible to live with difficulties. and i'm not being rude, i don't mean, and potash. i'm talking seriously. but but since this

history with neural networks these gpt. yes, all these options, she worried me terribly, and moreover, she began to worry me before it appeared. namely, that they will be they appeared in 12 years. they are here, like these guys are here. and at the same time, and i'm sure everyone i spoke to, including the developers, because i had the opportunity to talk with one of them a while back. uh-huh. now, everyone understands what this step is. this is a step into another civilization in general, unconditionally, and in this civilization it is absolutely not a fact that we have place for man. there is no place there, because we are a miserable lump of mucus that can live between minus thirty and plus thirty yes , god knows that and even if we get on a good road for you and me inside this conversation, namely yes but they cannot to create such

art that they cannot, they can do quite a lot of things in general is another question. do we consider this art and why add beethoven yes, and here we are asking me the same question all the time like a maniac and i will ask you, that is, it is rhetorical, namely we are planning here live. are we still planning to live on this planet or not? i think not everyone is planning, because i remember the soviet cartoon about vovka in the kingdom of far far away, where two fellows have the same face. there, something persuaded the stove to bake pies, or something, but also perplexed, vovka, this question. what are you going to eat yourself? of course, we will eat ourselves and throw ourselves over you. that is, you are no longer needed, that's the point. well, what do you need to do to somehow stop. well, i 'll try to be very short, and the danger. what is the danger? uh, that's what i'm saying, kind of what i am i think myself. that is, i definitely agree with

what i will say now, but this and what scares me much more is this and what they themselves think, and the developers, namely, scare them. and i didn't come up with the word. they were afraid, the most honest of them were afraid. er, two things, firstly, the speed of development of these things is calculated in days. you see, when we used to talk, we talked in 15 years, in 20 in 30. these days are our physiological nature. three cameras on the phone do not keep up with this. and i don't need them, but tomorrow will be eight cameras. for what? yes, this is a terrible story, firstly, these things learn very quickly themselves, and secondly, they began to learn. so that even the developers themselves do not really understand what is happening. this is the most dangerous thing. well, reading winter.

yes, as a matter of fact, the three laws of the employer foresaw everything. this is true, in addition, for some reason, as a default such consciousness, for some reason we believe that artificial intelligence, a potential large strong artificial intelligence, which does not exist yet, that he is sleeping right and sees how to become no one promised this to human beings, except for ourselves, no one said that they would go along this path, not the only one, and not even dogs along the path that we would not understand. i think we don't understand anymore. i was very fond of lemmas in my youth. i corresponded with him recently and read, yes, 22 volumes of which are half of the treatises and the late lemm understood all this, yes, and the same solaris clearly says that e is simply a subject in the singular. he already possesses a different subjectivity, a completely different identity.

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winline is more than just a bet of 2 percent from it goes to the development fund of your favorite club. support your favorite club every time i remind you, this is a podcast. let them talk, let them read. i am dmitry bug, my guest is tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya, a specialist in the field of cognitive sciences. and we continue our conversation about modern art, about artificial intelligence, and about why it is still necessary to read a lot and carefully. please tell me, for some reason, actual buddhist practices. you i was struck simply by sending the materials of the conference.

you, and then went, because it was quite long, namely 5 days for such conferences. this is a lot, as you and i usually know for three days and uh, which is interesting that they took part there, all the speakers were invited, and there, of course, there were reports from which, uh, the roof goes, because let's say the consciousness of an octopus is the consciousness of hydras. the consciousness of bees is the consciousness of snails. i don't speak higher. we are not the only ones, that is, you cannot measure the world, because we see the world. not no anthropoid in general. yes, of course, of course, it's still here. trap and with this all professionals agree, except for stupid ones, namely, we have no agreement on what we will consider to be no consciousness.

this is a very large spectrum at one end of which is generally, uh, any reaction to something is like a conscious gesture, and then the ciliates of the shoe. actually, buddhism is erupting. she is not alive. it is you who are pulling us into the field of culture, the fidelity of the population, but this is still not important, but with on the other side, at the other end of this spectrum, there are those who believe that consciousness is awareness, that is, reflection, that which we talked about, thinking without thinking, which i think about dargo, yes, and this is a huge space. so when we ask a question. and if knowledge is in the fish, then we must agree what we mean, and moreover, here is such an ulcer, as i will say for example. and how do you

know that this fish has a goldfish in her head? maybe she is there, what serious thoughts does she have, that is, but we are so far away let's go. you know, in our family, this is all very developed. although we are not buddhists. i will not plan an octopus. i always felt that i never eat in spain many years ago, but i was so ashamed, then, when i found out, what well smart, but mine it is. it’s terrible, really, here you can walk that even plants are thinking now, so you can’t breathe for the ends, because there are a lot of things flying around. yes, there are bacteria. well, i don't know, my wife's mom doesn't raise her hand to tell her mother-in-law that she's younger than me. she endures spiders here, well, to be good, well, the cosine of the house. yes, yes, we have turtles, all snails. but there is

such a lady, fashion designer parfyonova, maybe, you know, she is absolutely brilliant . by the way, she is math. as a result, we became friends with her very interesting. she is a maniac of all kinds of plants and insects. tarakashek. this theme of spiders carries itself in the garden, and she weeds something before every weed she apologizes. he says, i'm sorry, it's my own fault. i grew up in the wrong place. yes, i grew up in the wrong place, otherwise i wouldn’t have touched you for anything, but here, no matter how you are supposed to be, i’m sorry, imagine, while she is not a maniac, and she is not crazy. you know, i was once shocked by your phrase. i don't remember, you wrote it, but you have a lot of books. here is one of them, by the way, on the table i have the cheshire smile of schrödinger's cat. yes, the book by tatyana chernigovskaya the brain is the language of consciousness, so once i read you that the brain

is powered by a ten-watt light bulb. that is, thank god, there is still some kind of glimpse of hope, yes, that is, there is technology the brain is the most complex thing in the universe except the universe itself. at least from what we know anything about its complexity. just. sorry for this tautology is beyond our general understanding, as i say. brain we are not in the brain we are fine with this, that is, it is not 10 tenth. yes , it simply means now, although i, under threat of execution, do not understand how they think it, but it is supposed to say that there are 86 billion neurons. ah, billions of neurons, each neuron has several thousand connections to other places,

it means that all that happens in our brain is the connection of this with this, and several thousand. this is already some kind of universe in short , the number of connections that explain what they do not explain anything, which fix what is happening with us, they just have this quadrillion. these are exorbitant numbers , moreover, not only neurons play there, but there are also cells that no one paid attention to before, which are called glial cells, and they are bread. that's it and it has always been considered that this is, as it were, material material and what's more, uh, well, for the signal to go , it needs to be isolated. in short , such simple properties were copied , the trouble turned out to be that this clay had it in the first place. there is a lot of smart memory there and it is 10 times more , that is, in fact, it turns out that we do not

know ourselves and in this sense, that is, in us, that is, we do not know ourselves in the sense that we we see only our vision, they are the real world. yes, we see invisible infrared rays, apparently ultraviolet, we only hear our hearing, then there is a machine that is left in us auditory visual, but we know we feel we feel only our brain. yes, and even if there are errors, because you understand, when it comes to natural sciences and cognitive science, that part of cognitive science , when something measures, opens, looks fixes, otherwise it seems that yes, but you also have objective methods. eat. there, the graphs are correct, these follogra. there are all sorts of vibrations of devices with which we can see what is true in the brain, and what about the interpretation, here i get 18 million tons of different numbers further, what

will i do with it further enter my consciousness. or whatever we call it. yes, and i will say, it seems to me that this is what you will say, but it seems to me that this is what you don’t think, in a word, in words, these are the very candles of pyatigorsk. and uh, now moving on to the second part of our reasoning. i think that they will already be devoted to literature to a greater extent. and i hmm let me ask myself a question. and how general representations are possible at all, if everything is so relatively general in a very different sense, uh, mathematical axioms of moral truth. well, if the general was going to you while i was reading the diaries of leo nikolayevich tolstoy yes, and these are amazing things, how he contradicts himself all the time he writes opposite things, but he writes for himself. this diary is supposed to

be talking to himself, what is his reader? not at all, and therefore he writes very honestly. i would say, i remember luria my year with someone that this is something like an inner speech. there is such a very stingy syntax, sometimes such simply nominal ones. e luria lev semyonovich godsky, two classics psychology. yes, yes inner speech inner speech. it's not that i close my mouth and say the same phrases. and this is what precedes external speech and everywhere throughout the classics. and e is considered that this is another type of organization of speech not there. no subordinate clauses there, but this is an interview. i myself why do i need a big syntax when i began to say i arrived?