why not use it, but also develop at the same time, you are ready for development in that this is not a matter of new music in some new, probably new style. at least in the short one, for sure, if the free program can somehow be dragged into other programs. with a stretch, it's short , specifically. yes, a new, probably, musical direction. well, it's very musical. let it be, and well, there is probably a development in this. in 3 months , test skates of the russian national team and i wish you to attend full strength healthy drive, and so it was all season. thank you very much for coming. you were invited by the olympic champion mark kontraktyuk. the most modest, probably, the olympic champion in the world. and just a nice guy. thanks a lot. it was a free program podcast. i am maxim troynyakov and my guest today is the most

team player of the russian national figure skating team mark contract. hello, i'm dmitry bug here is a podcast. let them not talk, let them read and in our podcast we are with various wonderful we talk about any reading options with our interlocutors, so that you do not read parchments or modern manuscript readers or your old letters to classics or modern literature. still, we need to discuss this, we argue who exactly reads. who makes literature, who writes, we talk about what to read, but today

we will talk about a very special topic. and how does reading happen to us, what happens with it, how do we read reading. this is part of consciousness is part of our thinking , our intellect. that's what we're talking about today we will talk with our wonderful guest , this is tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya , a specialist in the field of cognitive sciences. hello dear tatyana vladimirovna, hello. i am very glad to talk with you today, when i was choosing how to present you, then, i settled on the definition of a specialist in the field of cognitive science. generally correct. it is very narrow and at the same time wide. i would say that it is rather broad, because the cognitive sciences include many different sciences, so philosophy, of course, because if we we say awareness, then where without philosophy they even include

mathematics, biology, of course, so that everything is in order nuditive science feels one could say that tatyana chernigovskaya is doctor of biological sciences doctor of philology, but most importantly, today it is cognitive science. as you, of course, understood. well, the root of such a semi-familiar hypnosis, i know the gnatology of knowledge. when we talked to you before the broadcast, i remembered hmm how, uh, alexander vasilievich pyatigorsky , our great uh, humanitarian researcher of buddhism, philosopher, uh, presented his book, no longer young. he said, so, i came here and i see. uh, two ladies talking. one speaks. oh, how difficult it is to live, and the other answers her. and you be philosophical, don't think wonderful definitions brilliant considering that he is also an imamardashvili. both separately and together , they repeatedly wrote about the enormous labor of thinking, that it is very difficult to keep a thought, that

the process of thinking itself is very difficult, regardless of the topic. and we don't even realize it. yes , because we often think about what exactly we think, yes, what's on the topic that's how it is by the way, a very difficult process is going on in us. i tried to somehow engage in such interaction and think about how i think it's almost impossible. can i have things from tolstoy, which we will talk about today? i hope u in the story. uh, boyhood is a genius piece. i remember him almost from memory. it sounds like my penchant for abstract reflections drove me to extremes. for example, i thought about something and created questions for myself, and what i was thinking about and answered. now. i think about what i think about, uh now what am i thinking about, i asked myself. and now i'm thinking about what i'm thinking about what i'm thinking mind over and over again came point wonderful this is generally called recursion.

i mean, if we translate this into our bird's scientific language, then it will be in the know, when one thing in another in another, this one accumulates this. it is very difficult. it hinders life. look here. for example, i am looking at tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya now, whom i respect very much. i love him, i love to communicate with her, and we are no longer about you, but i think about what is happening to me at this time, yes, that's all. and you have already dissolved. i don't think it's right anymore. no, well, it is. we know this, and we dissolve so much when we read, if soon we are in the subject let them talk, let them think, yes, yes, and in general, when in any art, we, uh, drowned. yes, that is , well, as if you were already gone, but it's very difficult because, here i am recently, and i thought

how difficult it is to listen to music. i mean, no hats. yes, but seriously, and the music so that you don’t get carried away, then your own own thoughts, so that you do not cling. they are for some external physical landmarks in front of their eyes, not for internal what? more difficult for what is there to cling to? you know, i was once simply plowed by the phrase of theodor adornu. well, he is also a musicologist, as we well remember, in addition to all his other talents, and he said an amazing thing. we are now getting closer to the topic of technology, about which i was going to ask you, and he said, so that in order to really hear the music. you must first get to where it is performed. oh what after all, brilliance, after all, of course, live music and that of any even very good. uh, the device is leaking. it's

a completely different effect though. although physically. this is almost impossible to explain, because these modern devices are, after all, of a very high class. yes, yes, but this is not the same at all, that is , this situation must somehow grasp itself in a living life. i think the reason for this is that you understand that this is the only time here, and it won't happen again, when you come to the symphony concert. you you understand that this music will float away forever, even if it is recorded on a tape recorder, that is, tarkovsky said andrei tarkovsky spoke about captured time. uh-huh, that is, well, we remember that einstein is a montage of a comparison of different plans, and for tarkovsky it is a long long mesa mkadr, like at the beginning of the film a mirror where you find yourself inside this life. that is, you have to impose an artist. now

, by the way, shamans, we also talked about this, though, because they use some kind of their own, but very strange instruments that they they don't realize, i think. they draw you into another time into another space, yes. that is, you are something else, this is some very significant transition. in general, to be honest, uh, you know, it recently occurred to me that it occurred to me that if we all finish our game, and there will be no more people on this planet, and then something will happen and either there were some intellectual and perhaps more moral beings will fly in from other e universes and there is something yes and here they are, look what is left of us, then, i think, but with amendments, but still the main thing will be

artificial. of course, i'm serious about this. i think, of course, my fellow scientists will tell me no. well, you forgot einstein there, that’s all , i didn’t forget anything, but what no one else can do, but only a person can create worlds, and worlds is art. and it can be said that art is the last refuge from the algorithmization of technologization. here i am talking to students, but no brief retellings, well, i drank a pill and realized it was karenina. yes? no, well, it’s impossible to even talk, but, but here we funny, because we are brought up in approximately the same culture, we understand, yes, such a conversation to have with people who are already in a different world. i mean, didn't speak posthumously. well, it's like a different environment is very difficult, because you don't even understand how to explain it. there is such a person

steven pinker. well, a number of his books have been translated into russian; he is a student of omsky and chomsky, of course, is smarter than him there. yes , of course, uh, chomsky, of course, is incomparably larger so, uh, narcissistic steven pinker. uh, in several places, writes the following art is like purges. he writes that, in principle, if e art disappeared, then in general, nothing special would happen to you, because the main things are not there, the main things are such that the cartridges are there, yes or measure and weigh. here, and it's like, when you're already tired of real life, yes, you can look at art. here, even though you shoot me, i, uh, think the opposite. clearly, this cannot be. art is exactly

what distinguishes and moving on to our theme and, of course, first of all, writing , in general, we don’t know the most important geniuses, who invented the needle, for example, who the knife is, well , we don’t talk about forks, because it appeared very late. yes, but there was some genius who came up with the idea. e, what's not good, when all the knowledge that you have accumulated, and leave with you, it would still be nice to take care of relatives and leave something for them. well, that is, this is copying reduplication. uh, you know, once, uh, nikolai grintsev. e, now chelengur, his wet son palace a asked me do you read plato i say i read constantly, yes, and then calm down about e-books, because e plato was unhappy when they copied and reduced editions. rather, plato's socrates is his teaching. yes, er, that is to say, one must

learn to simply walk with him next to socrates, and they were right. and they were right. yes, well, that is, the great inventor, he first hmm multiplied, replicated something then e words the language of typography. now a computer. well, let's not talk about watson crick and the double helix. and dna but uh, it's after all trap how do you evaluate the two events of the last month on the one hand. eh, great ones. uh, american electric car technologist, well , the check is quite bright and so on on the one hand. he calls for limiting research in the field of artificial intelligence. and in a few weeks, probably, yes, he gets permission uh to do experiments on uh, neuroping. he received this permission. it contradicts, uh, one to the other is it

a dead end or not? or is it progress it's their own fault for saying the word progress in the first place, i, uh, generally doubt that there is progress, except in technology, of course, in technology there is a rocker after all from the fontanka near where i live. i don’t carry water, and for trying to destroy such a large object or subject as a washing machine, i will simply kill anyone, because it’s impossible to live without it. no, but it's scary to remember, at the same time. i don't yell. i don't mean outrageous. i'm serious. and here, but since this story with neural networks , here are these gpt. yes, all these options, she made me terribly excited, and moreover, she became me worry before it happened. namely, that they will be they appeared in 12 years. they are here, like these guys are here.

and at the same time, and i'm sure everyone i spoke to, including the developers, because i had the opportunity to talk with one of them a while back. uh-huh. now, everyone understands what this step is. this is a step into another civilization in general, absolutely, and in this civilization it is not at all a fact that we have a place for a person. there is no place there, because we are a yellow lump of slime that can live between minus thirty and plus thirty yes god knows that and even if we take a good path for you and me inside this conversation, namely yes but they can’t create such art that they can’t, they can do quite a lot of other things. do we consider it art and why add beethoven yes, and here we are, like a maniac, i ask the same question and i will ask you, that is, it is rhetorical,

namely, we plan to live here. are we still planning to live on this planet or not? i think not everyone is planning, because i remember the soviet cartoon about vovka in far far away kingdom, where two fellows are the same from the face. there, something persuaded the stove to bake pies, or something, but also perplexed, vovka, this question is what you yourself will, of course, throw yourself over you. i mean, you're no longer needed, that's the point. well, what do you need to do to somehow stop. well, i 'll try to be very short, and the danger. what is the danger? eh, that's what i'm saying, kind of what i think myself. that is, i definitely agree with what i will say now, but this and what scares me much more is this and what they themselves think, and developers, namely their scares. and i didn't come up with the word. they were afraid, the most

honest of them were afraid. er, two things, firstly, the speed of development of these things is calculated in days. you see, when we used to talk, we talked in 15 years, in 20 in 30. these days are our physiological nature. three cameras on the phone do not keep up with this. and i don't need them, and tomorrow there will be eight cameras. yes, uh, this is a scary story, firstly, these things learn very quickly themselves, and secondly, they began to learn. so even the developers themselves don't really understand what 's going on. this is the most dangerous thing. well, reading winter. yes, as a matter of fact, the three laws of labor and technology foresaw everything, this is the way it is, in addition, for some reason, we are such a default consciousness.

for some reason, we believe that artificial intelligence, a potential large strong artificial intelligence, which is not yet there, that it is directly asleep and sees how no one promised to become human, except that no one said to ourselves that they would follow this path . and not even the most type of way we we will not understand. i think we don't understand anymore. i was very fond of lemma in my youth and corresponded with him. recently, yes, 22 volumes of them are half of the treatises and the late lemm understood all this, yes, and the same solaris clearly says that e is simply a subject in the singular . it already has a different subjectivity , a different dachaness. a person with prolonged anxiety often hears advice. calm down. or , for example, don't be nervous. thanks for the advice. need to sleep it's easy to say, but in fact

, anxiety can be treated with afobazol by the end of the first weeks helps to cope with anxiety , anxiety and related insomnia. afobazole anxiety can and should be treated. find out everything about anxiety on the all-russian portal of the dot rf territory. receive 1,000 rubles. for inviting friends to tinkoff before june 30 and together participate in the drawing of 100 million rubles. he is so alone. creamy cottage cheese dessert with gourmet chocolate, juicy kiwi slices or crispy balls we will bring, and let the whole world wait, you can’t find the exact rate on the loan. now we will show the exact rate on compare loan in a new way amount and payment of the loan. apply for a loan on the site-sravni.ru without small print without any

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for a car loan in the tinkoff app for both a new and a used tinkoff car. how is it that you remember what the name is about , the head is spinning on pepept helps to restore memory and reduce dizziness. now i won't forget. yes bring enjoy the delicate curd dessert with delicious chocolate, yes bring and let the whole world wait, throw away the car. difficult who fits the car does not fit the price, who fits? the price does not fit the car, and when you find the perfect car at the ideal price, the account goes for seconds. checkout tinkoff i remind you of this podcast. let them not speak, let them read. i'm dmitry buck. uh, tatiana is visiting me vladimirovna chernigovskaya is a specialist in the field of cognitive science, and we continue

our conversation about modern art, about artificial intelligence, and why it is still necessary to read a lot and carefully. please tell me why buddhist practices are so relevant. you struck me simply by sending materials from a recent conference on animal suffering. yes, it was called. uh, the animal conference ended just like that and it was named after the blessing of the dalai lama's support. yeah, well, it opened right at the residence, and then was, because it was quite long, namely 5 days for such conferences. that's a lot, as you and i know, of course, and er, what's interesting, what did they take there? that is, all the speakers were invited, and there, of course, there were reports from which, uh, the roof goes, because let's say the consciousness of an octopus is the consciousness of a hydra.

the consciousness of bees is the consciousness of snails. i'm not talking about higher. we are not the only ones, that is , you cannot measure the world by how we see the world, which is not anthropoid at all. yes, of course, of course, there's a trap here anyway. and with that all professionals agree, except for stupid ones, namely, we have no agreement on what we will consider consciousness and none. it's a very large spectrum at one end of which is generally, er, any reaction to anything. it's like a conscious gesture, and then ciliates shoes. actually, buddhism is erupting, but it is not alive. it is you who are pulling us into the field of vernadsky culture, but it still

doesn’t matter, and on the other hand, at the other end of this spectrum, there are those who believe that consciousness is awareness, that is, reflection, what we talked about, thinking about thinking, yes and so on, that ergo yes, and this is a huge space. so when we ask a question. and if the consciousness of the fish. then we must agree on what we mean, and moreover, here is such an ulcer, as i, for example , will say. and how do you know that this fish has a goldfish in her head? maybe she 's there what serious thoughts she has, that is, well, we'll go so far. you know , in our family, this is all very developed. although we are not buddhists. no. i always felt that it was me never been to spain many years ago, but

i was so ashamed, then, when i found out, what well smart, but mine it is. it’s terrible, really, here you can get to the point that now even the plants think, so attack, because in the end you can’t breathe, because there are a lot of things flying around. yes, there are bacteria. well, i don't know, my wife's mom doesn't raise her hand to tell her mother-in-law that she's younger than me. she endures spiders here, well, to make it good, well, the cosine of the house. yes, yes, we have turtles, all snails. but there is such a lady, fashion designer parfenova, maybe you know, she's absolutely brilliant. we are math by the way. as a result, we became friends with her very interestingly, she is a maniac of all kinds of plants and insects. tarakashek. this theme was lord in the garden, but she weeds something before every weed apologizes. he says, i'm sorry, it's my own fault. i grew up in the wrong place. yes,

i grew up in the wrong place, otherwise i wouldn’t have three. and i wouldn’t touch it for anything, but here, no matter how you’re supposed to be, forgive me, imagine, while she’s not a maniac, and she’s not crazy. you know, i was once shocked by your phrase. i don't remember you wrote, and you have a lot of books. here is one of them, by the way, on the table i have the cheshire smile of schrödinger's cat. yes, the book by tatyana chernigovskaya the brain is the language of consciousness, so once i read you that the brain is powered by a ten-watt light bulb. that is, thank god, there is still some kind of glimpse of hope, yes, that is, there is technology, but for the time being this uh, strange uh, brain phenomenon, uh, which is not clear how the brain works is the most complex in the universe except for itself universe. at least from what we know anything about him complexity. just. sorry for this tautology

is beyond our general understanding, as i say. brain we are not on the brain, we personally with this, that is, it is not 10 tenth. yes , it simply means now, although i, under threat of execution, do not understand how they think it, but it is supposed to say that there are 86 billion neurons. ah, billions of neurons, each of the neurons has several thousand connections with other places, which means that all that happens in our brain is the connection of this with this, but several thousand. this is already some kind of universe in short the number of connections that explain what they don't explain, nothing that captures what's going on. they just eat this quadrillion. these are exorbitant numbers

, moreover, not only neurons play there, but there are also cells that no one paid attention to before, which are called glial cells, and they are slurping. that's it, and it has always been believed that this is, as it were, material , and moreover, uh, well, in order for the signal to go, it must be isolated. in short corresponded with such simple properties the trouble turned out to be that this clay had it in the first place. there is a lot of memory there and it is 10 times more , that is, in fact, it turns out that we ourselves do not know ourselves and in this sense, that is, in us, that is, we do not know ourselves in the sense that we see only their eyesight, they are the real world. yes , we see, we don’t see infrared rays, apparently ultraviolet, we hear only our hearing, that is, the machine that is left in us auditory visual, but we know we feel, we feel only our brain. yes, and even today errors, because he understands when

er it comes, then the natural sciences and cognitive that part of cognitive science, when something measures, discovers, looks fixes, and then it seems that yes, but you have objective methods. eat. there, the graphs correctly, the dalographs, register a lot of all sorts of vibrations of devices with which we can see what is true in the brain, and what about the interpretation, here i will get 18 million tons of different numbers further, what will i do with it further enter my consciousness. or whatever we call it. yes and i say, it seems to me that this is what you will say, but it seems to me that this is what you don’t think, in one word, using the words of pyatigorsky. and uh, now moving on to the second part of our reasoning. i think that they will already be devoted to literature to a greater extent. and i

hmm let me ask myself a question. and how general ideas are possible at all, if everything is so relatively general in a very different sense, e, mathematical axioms are moral truths. well, if the general was going to you while i was reading the diaries of leo nikolayevich tolstoy yes, and this amazing things, how he contradicts himself all the time he writes opposite things, but he writes for himself. this diary is supposed to be talking to himself, what is his reader? not at all, and therefore he writes very honestly. i would say, i remember luria my year with someone that this is something like an inner speech. there is such a very stingy syntax, sometimes such simply nominal ones. e luria lev semyonovich godsky, two classics.

psychology. yes, yes, yes inner speech inner speech. it's not that i shut my mouth i use the same phrases. and this is what precedes external speech and everywhere throughout the classics. and e is considered to be another type of speech organization not there. there are no subordinate clauses there, there is a gerund. and this is the interlocutor myself , but why do i need a big syntax when it’s enough to say i’ve arrived, and i know where i arrived or who arrived? that is, these are generally closed such hermetic texts. and this is what you see there, he writes honestly about himself and you see that he writes things that are opposite. that is, he is so great and honest that he is not afraid to say it. but it is very difficult. i was also shocked at one time by the diaries

of tolstoy and a theme that boris mikhailovich himbaum wrote about them, great if you follow or tolstoy a he says that he writes thickly, but about plans and her disappointments. uh-huh sat down to play cards learn to play 66 in the whole game has become very dutch learn all languages, and through the page. i'm bad ugly i didn't succeed. i was not able to be struck by the phrase that tomorrow at two o'clock in the afternoon thoughts about music are not what i i’ll hit the piano, but you need to have tremendous strength in order to write such a thing even for yourself. well, yehimbam says that in general , tolstoy, in many respects, as a writer, was born from what he asked himself. how about, uh, is that? well, speaking in such, apparently scientific language, how is it exteriorized? as it becomes external he has a phrase that plowed me. here's how it happens. i 'll sit down at the table with mara ink, write a few lines, and it will be exactly what i

thought, how it will go into the world. this is an amazing story. i ask you to know what happened at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries with literature, am i right if i say that what happened in the 19th century turned out to be absolutely true. in the twentieth after the first world war and so on, it seems like absolute fantasy. uh, that's the inner monologue in mind, it's not plots. no, no, it's image technology. yes , but if you can call it a letter. come on, no matter how this topic is our consciousness in the literature of e, not always, but there is no akhil, there is a world inside him. yes, it's the whole project. e the will of the gods, if he achilles or achilles is angry at the beginning of the iliad achilles or achilles i remember the first line of maine aida tap or addocalius is all that i have left of the ancient greek language, then he is angry not because he loves barceda there, but because it is necessary for such a law to be a good world, in

which they lived with them somehow after all the coordinates were so solid. well, yes, but we don't have coordinates at all, so i just wanted to remind you about the general thing. here's about these common points. it's just a convention. in the sense that in a millennium gooseberries, a banal thought. it seems to me that the classics, i like to come in from the side. so i’ll go in and now from the side that it’s a classic, that’s why it’s a classic and why it’s amazing that a person is generally the same all the time, that the scenery changes, while the scenery is not necessary, uh, chairs and trees. and, uh, the accents look different, yes, but the main things remain the same all the time otherwise. uh, why are we interested in ancient tragedies, because everything is the same as

it was, that is the image of a person from the point of view of thinking, consciousness of feeling. yes, sure, he is like that he changes into different clothes. and sometimes a candle illuminates how you tell your students to turn off the electricity , that is, with a candle it is very important, because a completely different world got into the world of electric light, nothing was written, in my opinion, it flickers. everything in short, but still it's all entourage yes, but still the basic things are what they are, uh, they were like that. this is amazing. why through e, thousands of years of life of our civilization the same things go. it seems to me that the basic things will still be everywhere, that khoma is khoma here all people have two ears, two arms, two legs

, a head. this is such a type of documentary thing. a person with prolonged anxiety often hears advice. calm down. or, for example, don't be nervous. thanks for the advice. need to sleep it's easy to say, but in fact anxiety can be treated. by the end of the first week, afobazol helps to cope with anxiety and related anxiety without sleepiness. afobazole anxiety can and should be treated. find out everything about anxiety on the all-russian portal of the territory dot rf got ready to leave, tired of the same thing for breakfast there is only natural cottage cheese and ripe.

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prostokvashino only cottage cheese from ripe berries tasty and natural prostokvashino delicious breakfast for the whole family of the day two questions at the end of the first one. is it possible to say that this whole system is so very similar to homeostasis to something constantly, stretching to the middle of the center swiftly, that it is cracking or it just seems to us now that, like never before i hear this crack. i just physically hear it. i'm just interested in your opinion as a professional. i am sure that we are in a very dangerous , really dangerous zone of transition to a completely different life, some kind of analogue of what i called karl jaspers in his time. uh, the time

of the emergence of religious teachings, but biological species. yes, i think that this is it . this is at least on this topic. if not stronger , stronger, in a sense, not worse, because we can clearly see the time in which on the planet two intellects will coexist, but natural with all our sins with the whole set of what we talked about today and artificial ones, which are generally different and no one promised that we will understand what is happening from this path, it is impossible, it is impossible to return to non-exponential. uh, the economy is not one that must necessarily grow. why should she grow? looks like no. it also seems to me that there is no way to grow the index falls on some bije. this is me is what? it would seem, but no. it's some more

serious deep things happening. they affect anthropogenesis. as such, well, yes, because as the experts say - it's not me. i mean experts in the field of artificial intelligence and the developers of these neural networks. here, which often got out write diploma work diplomas. they write a lot. i am from one of these networks. here while in india was recently. if i talked, i'm not a weak young lady, but i have goosebumps. i just got scared. yes, you are talking to a person. this is an instant response. moreover, this network is made in such a way that it does not have access to she has been trained on the internet, since we have driven a wild amount of text into her. this is a linguistic system. she learned from books.