yes, yes, as it were, that it became clear there, well, to a huge mass of people, there his popularity testifies to this. and the writers of the beatniks, they generally, well, let's say, how they differ. so why are they called beatniks? in general let's talk a little about this cultural context, well, we are talking about the end of the forties at the very beginning of the fifties . uh, this is the american post-war generation. that is, it is the rise of the american economy. at the same time, in general, the rather poor state of american culture. uh, on that one moment the need arose. uh, somehow make her dominant in the world. there , when you buy american, you buy the very best american culture. well, they took out many such trends of many artists during the war and created such a, as it were, plast e, literary including hmm here, uh, that is

, you can talk about it as in such a political technology project, but as in any project with culture, something gets in and talented always and really, as if here are a few authors for me. why do we say all these? so jan is fiction? let's call it literature. why is it written primarily in the first person? this experience, it must be lived, as it were, and it is interesting precisely as an inner experience, first of all. it seems to me so, and precisely due to the fact that this inner experience is in the form of such a step-by-step diary of some often poorly structured text. but it's like it's always there. here, as it were, the beginning, how a person began. there is some kind of abstract psychedelic period of this consumption of chaos and the subsequent, as it were, what of this everything came out. that is, well, it’s bad when, as a rule, the grave goes away, but in some cases, we suddenly come across the fact that such an addiction managed

to somehow rethink this experience and even made some kind of novel. do you have experience, you have two books written also about similar experiences. tell me what this rethinking gave you when you went through this literature. i went to study all these twelve-step programs, and there is a rather significant layer there, these are diaries, uh, feelings there, uh. well it's an inventory memory, inventory of the psyche. there are blocks of their own. that is, you simply remember some people in situations that hurt you there or no longer hurt you. what was delivered to you and described in detail there according to certain methods in order to understand. in general, someone in this situation did something wrong, what is the situation and when you have been doing this for years, you have such a habit, as if not well, through yes, through written some. yes , some decisions are made through written analytics, that is, well, then i noticed that some

characters, that's what i'm describing , or situations, but they are so interesting that there's no way to paint them in these boring tables, that something more literature is needed there. yes, what a story is needed, at least a story is needed, i started writing the first few short stories and then somehow all of a sudden it all came together, there is a book a few years later, and it unexpectedly even became someone there, a small bestseller, we won’t return to burouz, but berus began write after he got out of dependencies. yes, that is, he's passing through this revision yes of their experience. it turns out formed. e yourself as a person. we can say so, we can say so, but we can say, in a junk novel, we say, i just immediately suspect that in this revision, that is, e, he did not stop being addicted and wrote a junk novel, and he i started working with my addiction and as a result i wrote through the result. yes, this novel, and in which he is clearly expressed there, he has his thoughts

, his own experiences, clearly there. well, uh , put it on paper, and what is this novel about? that is, let's tell a little about all these auto-fiction novels about addiction, and they are to a certain extent, maybe to the main extent. in fact, his freedom and about the loneliness of a person, that is, about hmm, about, yes, addiction. yes, there are all these adventures, but uh, that is, this is what we say in american life. yes, there are all these golovans, but they are actually pretty, yes, like ours. eh, beloved pale sings all my stories, in principle, are similar, that is, all these novels, they really are. well, there's a man there addiction. he's the one there. well, there is more or less, i see. well, this is the moment of what he understands. it's that he's addicted. there, he feels his own, as it were, this servile one, as if in front of this drug

of life. yes, that is. and here it is. they say, analysis, yes, that is, put it on paper, how they are trying to sort it out somehow consistently, because drug addicts are some kind of addicted people. they are often unable to think three sentences in a row in one pipeline. he needs to write down, that is, yes, that is. literally. here it collects the letter. eh, brains like that, yes, that is, to work with all of these addictions. here are the texts of the letter. this is one of the most powerful practices, these are these analyzes and so on. and it seems to you that life is a birch, that it is tragic, because , for example, i see that he is incredible, lucky in the first place, despite his abuses. he lived to be 83 years old. died. this heart attack, which was rather unexpected , even experienced by his son, and then he never went to prison. although in america these years. well, what is actually in the books. yes, this is pursued in life, everyone was in prison

, everyone was in prison, but he returned to the sbe. prisons a and the most interesting thing is that he killed his wife. that is, it was accidental through negligence, but how to see whether it was accidental or not, because he had a quarrel with her in front of friends. she humiliated him by saying that he was a bad hunter. he does not know how to shoot, and he decided to prove that he knows how to shoot , put a glass on his head, which means, naturally, he was not sober and fired and hit not in the glass and in the forehead. that is, he killed his own wife, but uh, thanks to his rich family, oh, which i already mentioned, he managed to escape. uh, punishment and perhaps morally he was going through, it's because he talked about what experience made him write or what, he began to write precisely after this event that he experienced, but nevertheless. it can be said that the man, uh, did not bear almost any responsibility, and even his literature and experiments. this is where it becomes

a classic. he becomes famous. that is even at six. that year, a massachusetts court ruled that his book naked lunch was a literary work , not obscene at all, because the book was banned at one time, uh, but she was acquitted in court for him, uh, norman myllera . alan gisberg. john chardy. this is a fluff writer. they acted in defense, in general, of their comrade. well, you can say the opponent. you understand that there is no literature. yes, such close friends are more like competition. well, that's what they all said. i read the court record, everyone said that this is a unique piece of unique artistic method. oh, and american society. let's put it this way, it can't do without e, this look without this language, which i introduced to beru, that is. in general, whether he is

lucky or not, you know, here i am, as an artist , after all. yes, that is, uh, i experimented a lot with different media yes, this is called art techniques, that is , electronic modern art and some kind of theater and painting, yes, and painting, whatever. and when i started writing texts. that's actually, somehow i began to realize myself. how exactly is the lyricist? i understood such a moment that literature is, well, as from the point of view of creative media, yes, that is, from the point of view of creative material, this is the only practically absolute freedom , as it were, a method, that is, according to the classics, it does not require money to create, there is only you and actually. yes, nothing can happen at all. that is, i can now go climb the ceiling on foot, well, go down from it to bring a diamond from there. there and that's it. here, i have now painted a whole story in

painting. it's all there in the movies. it's you all for yourself the only place where you can do it is animation, but this is also other labor costs, and this here and this is the incredible accessibility of literature, the power of these images that you can create like this. and this, of course, cannot be compared in terms of creativity. m-m freedom of creativity. yes freedom, uh, creative expression , of course, cannot be compared. so you're always doing some kind of 2d art. or there, like a raccoon, you always come across some interpretations of restrictions, yes , restrictions on interpretations of distortions. and here you are directly in plain text. how would you cut it, how did you think of it all, that is, this is a perfect format, and in this sense, how lucky the roses are that he, as it were, immediately started doing this art. only then, by the way, speaking, not only writers. he painted pictures. tell me about it.

well, yes, then here's five. 5-60 years arose a huge constellation of american artists a-a abstract expressionists. it's paul jackson there, meekly. well, there is a whole one. these are the authors who are now worth hundreds of millions of dollars there, and then they immediately began to build good money. i take a dream to draw such rather primitivist pictures, mostly on boards on some, and then, uh, all of her used to shoot them all with holes. yes, they are all shot. and by the way , in a paradoxical way, it’s as if they don’t know this in moscow, but in st. petersburg, for example, one of i saw such paintings in the permanent from the position of the russian museum in the frame palace. yes, and there was even such a very funny moment when i studied the second book. i am now describing this episode there, when i studied at the russian museum, so to speak, there is such an alexandrovich borovsky there is a wonderful art critic. such a director of the department is our course, we are teachers and somehow we go to him, and there

are some paintings there, i look like that, there is alexander comrade. what is it? the painting is right there. well, such a two by two seventy there basques there is a picture there, something like picasso is worth so in a pack. so it's in this and some kind of peeled board is standing. i say this in general, that yes dumberus. and me just already at that moment. i have already stopped using it, i prescribed all these mine. it just gives me away and i've made contact. e with a birch tree from material his art even managed to insert one hole at a time. it's invisible there. i recorded my feelings there, as if passing a finger through the pictures i take. yes , through the picture, for example, that is, uh. as a matter of fact, he did quite a lot. these pictures. they are. eh, in many museums there is something like that, and i really liked it, too , like eh, then i was also all like that at

the dawn, so to speak, some kind of artistic career. i liked the creative method , that, as it were, a person draws and writes books and films are shot there, there he does some kind of video ard and collaborates with rockers in nothing fah. multi form such a media format of creativity is very close when you are like the center of your own creativity, by the way, this is what you call performance right, when your own life becomes the object of your art. and so you can do there is such a concept that life is like an art of life. like a work. that is, there you have historical, how would your canvas be, that is, it's stupid, because why do they buy some paintings. uh, for expensive there is some workle, because this is the same workle, because there is a whole life. wow. and a legend. here in this episode of life. he painted this picture there , she was with that one, then frankly there. that you buy this story, but what is the story? this is a text that is, this is a kind of history, that is, you still think that

the main direction, er, of berouz's work, was literature, right? well, of course, but these pictures are such artifacts. uh. yes, the accompaniment is so merchandise, merchandising, that is, for the cover of the album, in my opinion, one of his paintings, because when you get such wild popularity, you get, in general, there are t-shirts, that’s all. these are also birches. i think there were t-shirts and some of these hats are some kind of collectible. there, too, you could somehow jackets. there are his trademarks. there are some podcasts, be sure to read. i am the main batch file, director , writer, my guest is kirill shamanov, writer, art critic. artist specialist in the art of the xx century. we're discussing william birch and his novels of junky and naked lunch. listen and here, in spite of his say. so lethality. it's in his books. i see that and he perceives these inhabitants of the bottom, these

konovalov pushers, flint hipsters, by the way, the word hipster is also used by beros, but not in the sense that the beatniks were actually hipsters that now we use this word in a slightly different sense then. it was a man who was in the subject. well, that's what you're talking about, uh, these dwellers, that he was friends and communicated with the inhabitants. he perceives them. eh, as equals. although we understand that he came from a completely different environment. and so he starts hanging out with some, well, just thugs, loafers begins to steal, and well, in general, and at the same time, uh, there is no feeling of any hierarchy. i have feeling. here is some kind of equality of partnership and brotherhood. let yes man be a wolf to understand that in this situation, probably, there can be no friends when everyone is hunting. yes, for some drugs, and most importantly, this is a drug, but nonetheless. i have a feeling that and this is some kind of

magic world, uh, bra- fraternal or not? i 've seen quite a few uh kids. these are the rich parents. uh, they come in a good car, a week later the car is already worse , a week later the car is completely bad. yeah and then on to a new car depends on how parents contain, but in general. yes, of course, that is, in this environment of use there, in general, there is only one hierarchy. that is, you have it and you don’t have it, that is, if you have it, you are the king of god, and everyone loves you and all your friends don’t have you. nobody really needs you there. you know this, and as if the only thing there is somehow there you can somehow credit something in debt there it’s the very thing to crawl, so there, as they say, there these things are erased, as it were, that is, they are lost some social hierarchy. yes, the wealthy are educated. well, there are rich, so you have, which means.

what, that is, if you were rich yesterday, as it were, i'm sorry, is it educated or not ? well, of course, it will probably be more pleasant to talk to you, but in fact, no one talks there, talks to be silent. well, as it seems to you, i take from here, choosing. uh, this experience, making it his literary material, and he consciously went into living life in an extreme , dangerous way. coming out dry from the water. at this. i think that in the case i take for here in the junk, just at the beginning of this novel. it more or less describes. i think that after all, but he was just so young in terms of weight, yes, a loafer, yes, well, few work, people love. ah. i mean, you know, it's me. here , too, for example, it is believed that i also do not work, but as a result, it turns out that all the same books, like writing, you suffer. there you carry these pictures all the time back and forth. something is always busy with something. i mean, uh, so these are

the people who don't want to work often, like would not understand that they will have to work all their lives. i undertake to write a lot , i had to work, of course, yes, yes. if i would go back like that, i think that it was still a young weight and such. here's some weird experience. e, apparently, most likely turned out to be somewhere on the verge of life and death several times and he was cut through, that he would just die right now and that’s it. sometimes thin, obviously yes, by perception, yes, that is, well, as if fragile perceived some things there , perceived subtle things, tracked it all, of course, he was greatly frightened by the prospect of dying. eh, in such a meaningless one. well, somehow he decided to deal with it. and so i think this is it. this is exactly how roman janke became such an important super-effort. for him. we can say that this is

such literature. eh, somehow promotes this way of life or fascinates? or so to speak draws in or rather vice versa? experience shows that those people who generally, in principle, read, of which there are few of them. exactly they have a chance, that is , they have something formed there, some higher nervous activity, some kind of dreams, maybe they are delusional, but those have nothing to lose, they are easy-going. and if a person has some kind of this one on the cortex, some dreams, some desires to become someone or i don’t know how it will take place or some adventures in life hmm, not only there in the yard there from one front door to another walking, then reading. it is, in principle, any, no matter how useful it is, if it is also thematic. rather , it is positive, that is, for me, junk, when i read it for the first time its consumption. for me, it worked for me. here is the consumption and the effect of the fact that, as it were, uh, here's the dude, everything is the same, but

he took the book and wrote it. that is, it consists stimulated. yes, that is, but i, and i ’m sitting here, sitting here, some kind of picking up here, something there, this is the same thing. i live some kind of boring, completely dull, monotonous life, in fact . this is a book about a feat, that is, about a feat. yes, because sex, these are all autofiction novels in which, uh, the author is there or the hero, he survives, these are books about a feat about the feat of a person before himself, because a person rebels against himself, it turns out his vicious part. yes, who owns it. yes, and yet he is completely lost state. he does not know what to do with him all physically destroyed, and for all the society is destroyed. he already stole from everyone there. whoever has something, that is, uh, lies e not thought for months, as he himself describes hmm yes and somehow it's all put together, and something to process into a fiery text. well this

this this something not well, that is, this field it's really not normal. eh, a state for even an ordinary person, passing through from experimental writing, you get, you awaken some kind of critical consciousness correctly, a rope, a rope, into a cord. what are you there? it's not just that it doesn't mean you don't find it, and you build yourself, in fact. doing some new connections. but tell me, but i’m taking about you, what is its peculiarity, because there is actually a lot of such jang literature, but why exactly am i taking it from e, you can say? why is this an artistic approach? why and his prose has artistic value, and not just the value of the experience described. i guess by writing this junk here. he realized that it really could be a success, that he, maybe he likes it, that it's better than there exactly the way he lived there or and so on. yes, that is, and he went further, he began to explore, or

already more. i think the junk is there. well, here, literature, there is some kind of contribution there. he's not like that. eh, it’s kind of big, but if, for example, in connection with junk, there’s a naked breakfast, yes, then eat it in a naked breakfast, he will absolutely help his work, and he uses uh, mosaicism there, yes, and everyone has some kind of it, but, but what is it? this is essentially research. here, as it were, here is the transgressive experience of the writer. that is, when you had something internal, something happened there, a typewriter . i don't know the paint, and it became something that's internal, it became something of a part. yes the landscape is there, uh part of the landscape is part of the cultural landscape. that is, uh, and this is precisely this moment of transition, when from the writer something comes out of this

creative energy is somehow refracted and splashed out there on canvases on paper. this is the psycho moment. this creative, he tried to explore it in a naked breakfast, to be honest, not very clear. why is it necessary? because it is more or less individual and more or less for everyone. that's pretty much what happens. that is, well, he wrote, but he did it. it's mine it would n't have been written. he did it. this book is so niche. so i think, that is, it a book that was supposed to be written by someone for the film adaptation, gronenberg. directed e not a kit lunch movie. e. here. i watched the last one, there are even two or three film adaptations, that is, such a cultural wave still came from him from him, and what do you think, here are the followers, yes, and ir, ivanul hunter thompson , there you think they already scooped up the choice, after all, he was, frankly, here i would have shared, that

is. uh, here i take from irvine, walls, yes , quincea, these are people with this experience, but hunter thomson, uh, this is alcohol. who for some reason wrote about something in which he is very very well not depp and even paid for his funeral. i love him. not for this. that is, e me, uh, to be honest, hunter thompson uh or uh, and here is a naked breakfast, just here i rather, unfortunately, maybe even mold more countertoms, but these are such writers about the frenzy there what - something there, and there somewhere to run. there is something there all the time. there. actually. they are not about some kind of addiction experience and not about some kind of experience. that is, it is some. well, such as would roman clips of some dude's criminal. i mean, hmm, sort of. i don't want to say it like that, but i'll say it's a pointless book. uh, nothing, she's

russian literature. uh, the beatniks influenced, but here is our favorite, by the way, edward and they are exactly helmets. yes, with his edichka here. and he arrived absolutely in the seventies, in the freshest form scooped up this russian, so to speak, literary consciousness, so to speak, scooped up this beatnik drive and managed to rethink it. here is a vedicka. yes, a filter, yes, and run it into russian culture into russian luda great russian literature and this, by the way, it turns out that it was incredibly refreshing, and this one here is the style of autofixation. eh, how like such a kind of dogma? yes, that is, as an endless development of a novel of some kind, that is, all these, of course, are methods that were transmitted through lemon into russian literature. i think that, to be honest, we are only at the beginning of such a long journey of russian literature that they are now saying that there are still chances, you know? me a few years ago. you see, with surprise, on asbest , i found some articles somewhere, which means

many of these literary critics started and meant ironically that autofiction has gone, as if in russia i hear a lot of criticism. in addition to autofiction and in doing so it is completely meaningless is a criticism, because, but there are some well there is a cultural wave. yes, this is true and you can't do anything about it. just again , someone will do it talentedly, someone will do it poorly, the art of modern medicine. i have another version such that we are generally doomed to autofiction coming years 100-200. it's just that now, in general, it seems to me, that's such a great literature, especially a large literary form. it's in some kind of this. if not for autofiction, it would be in a big crisis, but, in principle, no one reads novels for a long time. now everyone is more interested in the short form, in my opinion, the short short form and the form that relies on some kind of reality. that is, we are not now seeing, for example, on

television a huge number of these reality shows, they are even all going out of fashion, but they all go out go out, but not can get out. so i think that the future lies in all memories of biographies. but autofix and people just reach out and pay in rubles, because it's real, because you really learn something there on the one hand. eh, on the other hand. it can be interesting somehow, if it's interesting, how stylishly interesting, tasty there i apologize for this word it is written there, then it will be consumed accordingly, because people will not be some kind of distant terminological things. and when a person is right there, here, i know him there. i conveyed the words to you. here it is , there it here it comes, and now i also see popularity, it was big in the fifties. in general, one can say that you are an innovator and a pioneer of this approach to creativity in general, when you take your experience, all the more shameful, yes,

some kind of negative and just it, open it honestly and show it from your own face. and as you say. eh, a person who understands eh feels that this experience is real after all. well, i probably wouldn’t call him directly fat in this, but he really is. yes he did it's a classic, you know. well, i would say so, it’s not that he came up with it, but he’s already driven it in so that it’s no matter how you screw it up, because by and large there’s an auto-fix of memories and quite a lot, that is, different in every way, there and such and such qualities and that, yes, from everything, but he did it, really talented, firstly, yes , secondly, this is an interesting period of history, he managed to shoot a cut of this fiftieth, and in america some of these bikers before hippie. we suddenly find out that there was some underground some people

lived there somehow. i mean, it's exactly like that. here is another historical moment. here auto-fixation has a lot of pluses. i say if it's well written plus it's historically interesting, it's a character. interestingly, the author is an interesting character, that is, there immediately goes a chain of some kind, it fits right away to some other people a novel of that time there, a memory of others, it’s like, in fact , the universe of these autofishes and memories is like, here , she will give literature. i think some extra maybe after some time an additional mod block, because i generally expect. i expect a cultural explosion , new literary fashion, it will not be so supermassive, but i can see it directly, it's all spinning in the air. these are literary clubs on topics. eh, and it will be right. that is, it is there, because people's brains are destroyed. here is my car. yes, this is all already

clear to everyone that literature and texts. well, the book is the only thing that can somehow include everything? how to gather everyone there? something still left or something that studies the brain. they say that it is the reading of the letter that is direct, that is, to development. no, we see in literature several reasons to return so seriously, as if this is the most without jokes. that is, this media is very serious. this is a very serious tool, i just know from my own experience, and now, that is, the hardest ones, it can also pull out the addiction. and if this is for me , no, it is certain there are even some there, yes, they consult there there they combine there. some kind of gymnastics with well literary textual work, it will be the main work anyway, and now i know. i know people's resistance. i mean that people resist, so to speak, this tension of the brain. they do not want to read and write. that is, it is necessary, after all , some climbed, as a rule, devoted

their lives to consumption. if then they are completely dependent on their own sources of income there, and consumption there. they live completely, how to say, the second brain there , the limbic system. yes, and these books, they are such people, in general, probably, annoying, that is, because there is just going on, such direct criticism, the limbic system. is it so good to consume, is it so good to eat 20 loaves of bread a day, you're used to it, but do you love it? this is bread there, well, or 20 pieces. here it is weighing 300 kg there. well, that is, you have it destroyed there. well, it's good, come on, we'll round it up already. i want you to get answers to questions. here. he is lucky, he is a scoundrel scoundrel. that's why he came out of all this horror so handsomely and became a star. and what do you think, maybe maybe this miracle was done so that we could see some way that he did. well , of course, he is undoubtedly her lucky and he

was born lucky and somehow carried it already. well, how, well, on the other hand, here. well, he killed for some reason, it’s not clear there he got off something good, but maybe you weren’t lucky with that. maybe i don't think so. i think that any such person who has gone through a hard experience and somehow survived and has succeeded. but now this is lucky or a person, uh, who accomplished a feat. yeah, it's probably just not this discourse. yes, here, as it were, this moment is that how could a person be able to leave himself of such a past and create a new one. yes , because it’s all to pick out in yourself and redo. it is a pain. incredible. it's not some switch to switch. it's like a long retraining of habits there, that's all. anyway, i think that it’s not completely certain that you will somehow change completely right there, because it’s not necessary, but if we talk about that, uh, i take it, they consider

him evil, but it seems to me, that just when you're like, after all these alterations of yourself, you're not that angry. well , you seem to look at people a little with such condescension that you are such a good joke for you. well, nothing like that. in general, it does not mean, that is, a person can really be some kind of injury, and moreover, there really is. destroy a person because you know what you are made of and how you were made. and what did you have to overcome and you see that a person has it, and he naively runs across russia in that direction and you tell him, you you know there is a hole, there the abyss will be there, he does not listen. well, i think that you didn’t have this, you’re a fool as a result, then you go and look, well, he’s sitting in a hole there, well, the minister’s group came to the taker and said that he was terribly grumpy grumpy, he only brightened up when they talked about his petunias generally

a writer. i know that's how it is with the character of hmm, not everything, as it were, is golden. why is it getting old, you know? that is, everything, it has already experienced everyone, you understand? that is, he has already experienced all the times , the new one has grown, and you have survived, that is. well, somehow here it all, it seems to me, spoil the character. thank you very much for the conversation. it was a prompt, be sure to read. i speak in a batch file, you say the director to write, i had an artist at a party to write or how old is kirill shamanov, we talked about creativity or we take a rose. on

you on tv, you rain a circuit. according to such a neighbor, we are russia, a simple people. i'll tell you right away, and you smile and tell me, i've been waiting for you. i've been waiting for you. i'm so

close to me