it turns out that a joke where you have a bear will talk like this, and a fox will talk like this next time with you, that i will stand up for one anecdotal character. yes, the hero of a joke. and you will be the lawyer of the mouse on another, and i will, let's say, talk, and voice it. no, well, on this optimistic let's e friends. uh, unfortunately our time has come to an end. hmm, really natalia wanted to do something else, please stay in a good mood. it was a podcast jokes, and for you today they remembered funny stories and actually the jokes themselves vadim galygin bye bye bye see you again.

hello schrödinger code podcast and i am its host grigory tarasevich, editor-in-chief of the popular science magazine schrodinger code and my co-host the real cat bari, our podcast from popular science about how easy it is to understand complex things and how to see complexity in very simple and mundane things. and today we have a wonderful guest maria kalinina doctor of chemistry professor of the russian academy of sciences, leading researcher at the frunkin institute of physical chemistry and electrochemistry, spoke out. hello absolutely right. and today we will talk on the one hand about very difficult chemistry and about 8 simple things, for example, rasul, we will try to connect them together. let's start with soup. well, have you ever, at least barely a court, but cooked. i, of course, yes, what kind of

soups do you like to cook. well, i, probably, like everyone else, like most of the housewives in our country, first of all cook, borscht cabbage soup in a hodgepodge. uh, well, occasionally a pickle. well, where does it begin? you can remove more from the broth quite right. and what is the broth in terms of colloidal chemistry? bouillon? let's do it anyway. it seems to me that it is worth giving a definition of what caloid chemistry is, column chemistry studies surface phenomena and the behavior of dispersed dispersed systems. so the crushed one was already frightened immediately for soup. you look with some horror. well, we grind into ingredients that we take for him any volumetric object that the listener is looking at. he can mentally imagine that he grinds it to some pieces on dimensional ones that are no longer visible to the eye. and if all the substance in a volumetric object is inside and actually does not know what

is happening outside and does not enter into chemistry. what kind of reactions with the environment, then in its crushed state, almost everything is on the surface, and it is already ready to communicate with the outside world and somehow react with it. actually. this is about the same thing that any housewife does, in general, soup is the path of any person to chemistry and on the other hand, the path of chemistry to the heart is love a hostess prepares a colloidal chemical system in order to extract from voluminous things from voluminous carrots, voluminous beets from a large piece, meat to extract that same taste and nutrients due to just grinding or other methods that the hostess uses in the kitchen are completely chemical, by the way. now, if we start with the broth, what is it, and it's a solution of protein molecules in water, and also parts of protein molecules, but we know that together contains collagen. i think everyone has heard this word because this word is found both in

cosmetics and in the industry and everywhere, what we need to achieve is that we have such a kaloidal solution of e, small particles of protein in e. it turned out in the water. we must heat the meat slowly , we must heat it up to about 50 degrees so that the collagen does not immediately coagulate collagen, such a helical molecule. and if you heat it very quickly, then it will shrink so immediately, and everything will not come out into the solution. an important issue that worries me since childhood is that meat should not be put into boiling water in any case, because if you throw meat into boiling water. this is how it will happen. uh, it's about the same thing as steak going. you throw it into the pan. all collagen. coagulates quickly and no longer releases nutrients to the outside, therefore, well cooked properly. it's juicy inside. the same thing will happen to a piece of meat if you throw it into boiling water then so that you still get the broth, but you will have to cook it for many hours in order to

overcome this mistake. initially , put the meat in cold water and slowly heat, let the collagen swell, and then, somewhere around 60-65 °, the collagen molecule will begin to break down and release into the solution the same famous glutamine amino acid, which is found in meat, to which our tongue reacts, as to that very famous taste of umami. that is, this is the fifth taste that we can feel. well, uh, the more glutamic acid in the broth, the tastier it will be, obviously. well, bring it to a boil. yes , broth, in fact, you can cook without boiling the problem is that you won't be able to handle the vegetables later, if you don't heat the court further look, you said you nailed the word solution. and as i understand it, in chemistry there is an understanding of the true solution, and now you can see. yes, yes, june is not a true solution. the broth is not a true solution precisely because

the particles. in it, contained larger than single molecules, that is, in fact, this particle is already larger than 2-3 nanometers of a standard size. well, usually an ordinary molecule, what does it mean in physical terms it means, well, any listener here. he can take it for himself once and try to distinguish in his kitchen or in his cosmetic cabinet, colloidal solutions from the truth. now, if he takes, uh, i’ll say, well, some kind of perfumery, a solution of fragrant substances in alcohol shines there, with a laser pointer, then the size of the spot at the entrance and exit will be the same through the transparent container. but if he shines a glass of transparency on the summer broth, he will see that the spot from the laser pointer will begin to increase at the exit. why this happens because the particles are large enough to scatter light enough for us to see them, but for a laser pointer, she already feels their size

to distinguish. yes, a colloidal solution is possible with the help of a laser pointer is enough. it just says broth. here is my second dilemma, not all, they say, experienced housewives, removing necessarily to the end all the foam foam, as i understand it, this is also a dispersed system. yes , of course, this is also a colloidal chemical system. it's just a solution of air now. well, as we call it in the solid phase. there is still a little bit of liquid, but these particles of decomposed collagen, these flakes that carry up, this is what it is. e, since the particles of the protein, they can combine with each other to form such a similarity. there is a gel, there is a sufficient number of pores in which air is stuffed , and there are also surface-active natural substances. well, what kind of substances , understandable from the name, are surface active, that is, a feeling of what it is on the surface they do things, speaking in colloidal chemical

language, they lower the surface tension , facilitate these foaming processes , the formation of small fat globules, for example, in water, as it takes place in milk or a means. yes? yes something like that. and why should they throw away this foam, well, firstly, because, as i understand it, it is simply tasteless, it spoils the appearance of the broth, but, that is, the broth will become cloudy. eh, everything. this scattering will ruin the whole picture and just be ugly. but if that doesn't bother you, then you can leave it. here is the next dilemma. here's how to be in borscht with beets, some say to rub and sauté with oil, others say to immediately throw in boiling water. that's how you do it means, and i'll stew the vegetables first. then i just load them into the soup for two reasons, which means, firstly, for vegetables, in order for them to collapse, a higher temperature is required than for uh, the natural

proteins of vegetables have the so-called protopectin; pectin, probably the same word many have heard this is a polysaccharide, as we say, it is used for such a binder. here is marshmallow, actually formed and marmalade is not artificial and natural marmalade. yes, it is formed due to the fact that there is pectin in fruits and vegetables, and in order to decompose it, a slightly higher temperature is also needed , otherwise, uh, vegetables will remain tough, in general, vegetables and meat in vegetables in terms of the chemistry of these processes that they undergo in the soup, they are a kind of antagonist, for example. meat, yes, but in an acidic environment, but if you add acid there, it will boil faster, but it will happen with vegetables, that is, in the opposite situation. that is, well, we we know, there is a crunch in a piece, sour cabbage. we remember how dense it is. yes, and

a dense product is so crispy, in fact, due to the fact that there is a lot of acid and e, you also need to remember the following, that most natural dyes. but we love borscht, it was bright red, it should have a rich color. here are the most natural vegetable dyes they stabilize. that is, they are stable in an acidic environment. if the environment is alkaline, well, that is , throw a pinch of soda, then they either change color or e. well, at best they are discolored, in general, it is rare, but in general the flowers change. and what happens at a higher temperature and natural pigments, they are destroyed, so those housewives who throw. in boiling water, and then boil it all together with meat. they are often surprised. and what is this borscht they have , and they have already poured vinegar and poured it out, but anyway, it’s more like this kind of orange. here is an indefinite color, and not that thick burgundy saturated, but because

the betonins, and the dyes that are contained in the beets during this time, managed to completely decompose and lose their beautiful color. this is generally how many e are related to e, dyes. here, perhaps, this will be useful to some of the listeners. and this rule is almost universal, for example, anthocyanin dyes. yes to e in cherry in blackcurrant. here. imagine, dripped on a white shirt with something like that, what to do? many people make the standard mistake. they run, rather, they try to use soap in the bathroom, it's 15 to wash. i find a very nighttime environment the stain does not disappear anywhere. it just becomes an unpleasant purple. like this stays in place. what should be done? but we must remember that natural dyes are not stable at high temperatures. heat boiling water to the temperature and pour it on this stain, it will disappear by itself. well, back to stewing. yes, because, as i understand it, not only temperature plays a role, but also the presence of oil, that is, fat , the presence of liquid oil and fat, but we

usually need fat for caramelization of the so-called meyer reaction, which betrays everything in a sweetish aftertaste, but fats, and they bring. here is also your taste, of course, in soup, but the fats need to be stabilized. and now, when all this is put out superficially, those same substances are active. they come out with some more moisture. remain enveloping. these droplets of fat make them invisible to the surrounding moisture so that they remain in the soup. they surfaced and united. with such a layer of oil on top, and this, of course, conveys that very unique taste of borscht, which contains both vegetable fats and animals and proteins. and now, there is the same delicious mother there, and sour and salty all this together in one soup. i think that borscht is just because of such a popular soup, but because of its unusual taste, that it is a combination that all the richness allows you to feel the taste, then

let's move on to the seasoning, but while roasting is now read wise not to achieve high temperatures. these supposedly carcinogenic fats are converted into something harmful. it's so true, because when frying, a certain part of e organic matter passes well , in fact, into various kinds, but carbon materials. this is the crust you see, especially if you overcook it a little. these are such coals, they are sometimes pleasant to the taste, especially when combined with neighboring, in short, harmful areas. unfortunately, yes, because we are thus, in addition to certain aromatic carcinogens. we are still different small -carbon fractions. they are every coal of the same useful, in fact, here we form a certain amount of coal, which is also lined with surfactants. it is too easily absorbed into the gastrointestinal tract. and at the same time, it is not very good for our enzymatic apparatus.

all of this is recycled. and what temperature should it be? what is optimal. if you want to keep the juiciness of the piece inside, so you need to create this crust of coagulated collagen, uh, which the juice will not come out means, the more the better, that is, you need to put a piece so that in a few seconds you actually have this cramp-coform, but let's get back to the pan where the carrot, onion and something else lies, but correctly, i understand that carrots without fat give away their nutrients poorly, and in something is useless to me with many plant substances, but in this case , quarantine, it is already there a precursor of vitamins, and a is a fat-soluble compound that does not have a corresponding fat matrix. it simply will not dissolve and the body will not be able to assimilate it in this way, the same applies to vitamin e tocopherol. and the same

applies to vitamin d, that is, these vitamins have to be packed into soluble fats, into something not necessarily into vegetable fats. and it is possible and in an animal, in the end. and so, by the way, redheads prey on animal fats. eh, so, uh. yes, there is a certain amount of substances that we, uh, we have to reckon with the fact that they do not dissolve in water. therefore, fat is needed to just dissolve this quarantine there, and the active substances on the surface are a droplet that will be brought to our soup. here i must repent before our listeners. i am a lazy person when i cook borscht. i often don’t pose for carrots, but finely chop them and throw in the soup. i expect that there is also fat there. there's also animal fat left. he comes into contact with this carrot, he will pull something useful out of it in the liquid. it depends we come, actually to the basis of colloidal chemistry, what she says, the more you grind, the more

chances you have for it. so, if you grated a carrot, then the chances are good, but if you threw it there in one piece, then i'm afraid that such a very small amount of carotenoids will get in, it's still worth it. by the way, giraffe. what fats are best for our body, what is digested? still ray who uh, well on throughout their evolution, to which man has adapted, this is both animal fats and vegetable fats. so called saturated fats and therefore unsaturated. well, you know, here 's another difficulty we have, which, unfortunately, because. well, yes, the food industry is an industry people earn. there, many things that are postulated as useful and harmful often have rather marketing origins, and not at all scientific

, this war on uh, cholesterol, indirect, which actually did not have a solid scientific basis, because what science says is that cholesterol itself is from food. it is not capable of causing atherosclerosis in humans. uh, atherosclerosis, that is, inflammation of the vessels, which causes the formation of these cholesterol plaques. this is actually a natural reaction of the body in an attempt to heal these inflammations in some way repair these damages so that hmm the vessel is simply not permeable. and so , cholesterol itself, as a natural building material of our body, is contained in any of our cells. we can't live without him exist, therefore. therefore, what causes atherosclerosis this is a wrong way of life this is redundant, but some content. there 's no fat sedentary lifestyle there. well, in short, that's all that is not related to the concept of a pattern that can cause atherosclerosis, uh, but not cholesterol.

it's not a substance in itself, so here's the vendetta for animal fats. it was completely meaningless, but in fact, to no one. hmm , except for people who already had this tatar rose, oh, who had to follow a diet according to medical indications. eh, no one. it didn't help, didn't do anything special, and didn't prevent anything in particular from having a podcast with you. here is schrödinger and i , its presenter grigory traevich, editor-in-chief of the popular scientific magazine schrödinger's code, and my cat bari, who acts as a co-host, we are talking simply about complex things and complexly simple ones with us. maria kalinina, professor of wounds, doctor of chemical sciences, and we are talking about how complex chemistry and physics are in a banal soup. look, we have cooked the question. we added soup, seasonings, salts, spices, everything,

all right, eat. and what happens to him next why does the soup spoil for some reason less tasty? why on the third day from such a maroon fine borscht becomes such a dubious brownish liquid? all, well , almost all caloid systems are a and , in scientific terms, and not thermodynamically unstable, not scientifically simply unstable, that is, any colloidal chemical system. it tends to deteriorate why but because these particles have a very large surface. and generally speaking, but somehow a particle, like people, they love their own, that is, here they are looking for their same protein particle and sticking together with it, which we see as a result , we see that our oil has all floated to the top of the borscht. we finally decomposed all these dyes that we tried to stabilize, because at the same time. even if in an acidic environment , the processes of destruction of living tissue continued. well, before

once, the former alive and in the end. well, the court is actually subject to, so to speak , dying as well as all living things, because all living organisms, without exception, in fact. they are already colloidal chemical systems. just colloidal chemistry. she uses such terms for this soup - it is a free dispersed system, all particles float in it. here they freely do what they want there, and we are connected with you, this is a dispersed system between us and the soup, we are more connected, more organized than yes, of course, look at your borscht and understand, how much between you in general quite right, but we really do, and we all swim caloids. uh, hemoglobin is a caloid, and our cell is a system also of caloid objects. we all caloric systems are actually caloric. chemistry is the chemistry of life. so it is

throughout your life. she was only engaged in improving the everyday life of a person. in fact, it is this chemistry. closest to the average person than any other. you encounter it in cosmetics in the food industry. you're on washing powder colloidal chemistry again next to you the construction industry in the mass of others and m-m. she really changes people's habits, and she has changed them. e. none of us today, you know, he doesn't wash his hair or do laundry, uh, and he doesn't wash his face with the same bar of soap. although it was only 100 years ago, that is, already, uh, there are a lot of individual products. here's something for you to wash. this is for you to wash dishes. but this is for you personally for you, please, that is, here come to the store and that's it. this is diversity. you are required. uh im. actually, caloric chemistry. when you come to the shelves with food products, and you see, here is milk, we have it here, and

sour cream until a long shelf life. oil yogurt, cakes. this is all this is all the work of caloric chemistry. all these are emulsions of fat in water or vice versa water in fat so that they can live for a long time. chemistry uses emulsifiers, these very stabilizers, which are so hated well massively in various anti-scientific-popular-popular sources of information. uh, if caloric chemistry had not learned how to make such systems sustainable using scientific approaches, we would not have a food industry. we couldn't store food. so her terms could not transport her from place to place, and in fact then a lot of people just remained hungry. this is a part. in general, our way of life that we have. now, unfortunately, these are the prejudices that exist on this matter. so it is assumed that, of course, the entire food industry. it is aimed solely

at poisoning a person, and all the people, apparently, who are employed in this industry. they eat something else somewhere else , exclusively from grandmothers in the village. in fact. it is not, but the vast majority. oh yes, for some reason, well, a compound that is used in the food industry and in cosmetics. they go through a rigorous selection process. sometimes there are incidents, sometimes, when a-a period of time is required too, well, exceeding the accepted standards in this industry for testing, let's say, not a year or two. well, a person has to be there for 10 years, and there is some component in order for you to understand that there may be some negative consequences from him, this happens extremely rarely and uh, in fact, the vast majority of substances that are used in food products. these are the same substances that you can find in nature.

they are simply obtained synthetically in a flask. well let's take a simple example of benzoic acid already sounds awful awful. it’s me, to be honest, i don’t remember what the e220 is and, well, the marking is european. uh, connection or 330? listen, yes, what do you think, when some kind of the same grandmother who exclusively feeds her grandson with something exclusively natural. here she gave him lingonberry goats, which means she pushed him, just a little bit, because sugar for lingonberries, required, yes or for cranberries i rolled up a jar i gave my granddaughter to take with me on the road. this is probably because she wants to poison her granddaughter and get his entire fortune herself in reality. that's where benzoic acid is, not in any yogurt, not in any product on the shelf at all. you will not meet with such an amount of benzoic acid as in a small, small jar of soaked lingonberries, and there is nothing wrong with that, which is why it does not deteriorate precisely because i have this benzoic acid. she possesses. here is such a period storage. actually, this applies

practically. well, that's almost all the compounds that you can find in food, as far as cosmetics are concerned. well, of course there. e already at chemists of freedom is lower, but nevertheless , cosmetic products also undergo a very strict selection. many of the uh ingredients that were, uh, anathema to the de facto consumer. well , for example, the same parabens, in fact, they do not carry such harm in those concentrations, uh, in which they are used in cosmetics, and moreover, the original one can be called this, probably, with the modern word hype about them, it was raised. uh, in general, because of an unfairly made publication. uh, these, uh, studies have not been that it causes cancer there, and in the quantities that you can get in cosmetics, they have not been confirmed. and

at the same time, the replacement with an alternative to these parabens, which are now offered in modern cosmetics, is often worse and it leads to a reduction in the shelf life of cosmetic products, moreover, so you you don’t always have time to notice it, and the product is already starting to harm you, as we found out how it is when it goes bad. yes, everything that i spoil for colloidal chemical is not useful, we'll be back, just look at conservation. here, i understand what it means to provide protection against bacteria heat sterilize rinse all microorganisms to kill. it's clear. and how to maintain the consistency that we like, so that the cucumbers do not fall apart, so that the georgut is elastic, so that the borsch is a red stabilizer. him ice caps. they work there, and they are powerful assistants, but anyone. well what's the name of the food in these? well, yes, a food production technologist, uh, which actually. they are responsible

for it. and how do they work? how does it work? it's surface active , you know, the main weapon of the caloid chemist is surfactant. they themselves, of course, active substances differ in tremendous diversity. that is, this is a huge amount of a wide variety of compounds that can stabilize either fat droplets in water, or vice versa, water droplets in oil stabilize gel textures. lamellar so-called textures. but these are the listeners who know something about modern cosmetics, they immediately caught on hearing. this is a very fashionable direction in modern cosmetic chemistry. that is, the most different here are these gelizuli from the suspension. this is all the name of soufflé foam colloidal chemical systems, all this is not done with the help of the same substance, that is, when washing a washing machine , some substances in the food industry work other substances in cosmetics work third.

sometimes these sets overlap. the hour is already mm. well, it's rare. i would have said. well , here borscht gives already concentrated borscht, if you open it, a beautiful, bright red liquid, straight, as if a stabilized liquid has just been brewed, but sometimes people do. well, let's say sublimates. that is, it is when you use the so-called freeze-drying, which allows you to quickly evaporate all the liquid. yes, from here, ready . what kind of ready-made soup or ready-made dish, and it turns out so dry. by the way, maybe dried fruits are sold dried strawberries. here is the same way of forging. here, and then you can add liquid to it and it will gradually swell. well, this is true, in my opinion. quite rarely takes the original form. but it happens so concentrates, when you again, but in a skeptical way. you can evaporate a large amount of liquid from the borscht. just

water, leaving this one here some kind of concentric. then you simply pack the volume in the appropriate packaging so that there are no bacteria there and then simply dilute it with water. that is it can be done and it’s actually at home, probably hard, but at home it’s difficult, but it’s easier just to cook a slightly thicker concentrated soup roll it into a jar again. in the same way i send the department for storage, it means that if you add acid, you don’t necessarily add benzoic acid. vinegar can even be poured, but everyone knows. yes, what is sour? yes, uh, and the same sauerkraut and uh, pickled vegetables in vinegar. they are why the acidic environment is stored prevents the growth of bacteria and allows you to save the structure of this texture of vegetables just because, as i said, the acid prevents the vegetables from falling apart. and if we freeze more we will crash the hungry system or not, kind of when you

defrost because. and here we are what we wanted to achieve, we wanted our vegetable walls to swell and be given to us. she same soup should be tasty. we are now. i hope the listeners understand, if we want that we had a delicious vegetable itself, right? or a piece of meat. you must as quickly as possible at high temperature to process it, then everything. yes , everything will remain with us, which means that in well, not in its original form, but uh, so relatively crispy undercooked, let's say. and if we want to boil it and taste the taste of the soup itself, that is, the liquid, our liquid must be tasty. we must, then, boil everything. and what does this mean, all the walls are swollen, collagen, the vegetable structure of the tissue is also swollen, a lot of liquid has swollen in it. it is boiled soft, as we say, that is, if we freeze this thing now, the water will freeze. when will we start defrosting, alas, is an inevitability ice crystals, yes, but everyone knows that ice, yes, water expands. so, accordingly , it pushes these walls, then, of course, well,

there is no such way to prevent it. it is you who will lose this texture of borscht, which was when you let’s say so before freezing, that is, after it will already be like that. well, a little wobbly. let's say we only lose vegetables or the meat broth will be preserved. no, not with meat, nothing like that, especially, that is, it will also be there, but with meat broth. we drip somehow. nothing nothing special will happen with halogen. and we already spoiled it to cook soup. we already cut it into pieces down to glutamic acid. so there is nothing to spoil. and, probably, the last one is just about the broth. of course, i never do that. yes, but theoretically it is possible to add kuberk broths, in which there is quite a lot of sodium tomato, how much? it's bad how tasteless it is. and in general, what kind of system is monosodium glutamate - this is the salt of all the very glutamic acid that is found in any animal protein. that is,

accordingly, if we can eat animal protein and believe that a piece of chicken will not harm us, then in general there is no pure form of glutamate either, but there is a question here that goes beyond physiology. so actually, we already mentioned. eh, here we have a zone on the tongue that feels this taste of glutamic acid to the taste of mother, the one that we associate with the taste of meat, because, well, evolutionarily it was not so easy for a person, but generally speaking, a piece of meat on his dinner table to get and he rarely got such happiness. well then, but there is e well many, and scholarly ideas tologists suggest, this is because there is a connection defined between here psychologically. the perception of tastes , the formation of eating habits of eating behavior and how much glutamate we have in food, when we

saved us even later in combination with sugar, and some people also put a lot of sugar. yes? uh, well, blasphemy of alkachev. yes. well, here 's something, well, a simple example of uh hmm fast food burgers, but sweet rolls, because sweet bread is used there hmm and in combination with a large amount of glutamates form in humans. eh, food addiction not because there is something useful there, or, well, firstly, it’s easier, of course, i bought it, namely, because maybe here is an excess amount. this is the brightness of taste, when a cutlet, in which there is actually less meat, after all, this is deceiving you. you can pour in glutamate, and there will be fewer really useful substances in the kit. there do not know 20% of the rest of the meat. there bread products vegetables starch. and at the same time, you will be drawn to this athletics more than just a piece of e chicken fillet, which is much more useful in

in this regard, but it is not so tasty, because, well, or you need to sprinkle it with a bouillon cube to have about the same psychological effect. that 's the food that's the feeling, yes, from what you eat to achieve, because and that's the most difficult question. in general, what is the difference between tasty and tasteless. that's how whom physics and chemistry entertainment taste? this is indeed a very complex question that is beyond the competence of any chemist. it seems to me that it is necessary to call a psychologist, here a tolog and ask them. hmm i have a point of view. actually on this question, that first, of course, is part of the habit of nurturing what you associate with there with things that please you. you know, people come. here in the house i feel the smell of charlotte there, which the grandmother is ready for everything the person has a different mood. the tonal attitude to the food that he will eat is what he has developed. and if something is unpleasant, i

, for example, can’t stand it, and even the smell, uh, coffee from the so-called chicory, because it smelled like that in kindergarten, and i really didn’t like him, and that’s all, a it’s kind of cut off, that is, it seems to me that this is an associative, to a large extent, connection in a person, plus cultural habits, again, something is eaten in one region in another no, and, of course. i think that most of the human. there is also an evolutionary apparatus, tuned to distinguish between fresh and not fresh, spoiled and well-cooked. well , it seems to me, but let's say everything is excessive, there is an excess of salt, an excess of sugar, overcooked without giving. that is, this is what prevents a person from really assimilating well, nutrients. we have somewhere, probably again, because you need to call a specialist. the medica must be written down somewhere. we have this program that allows us to distinguish.