the dialogue is defined by its readers as people of the present, that is, in fact, it must, by and large, yes, in the language of the present, tell people modern, and they must understand this, yes, so to speak. about a-a people or events there, of course, first of all it is about people, because, and that means in people of the past. yes, and here, respectively, yes to say, he should not modernize too much, but at the same time, if he starts, yes to say, as the people of the past said , no one will understand, of course, here he is doing this is to say the function of an intermediary, which means that with models it’s about the same. but tell me, then ogurevich , in my opinion, said that when you talk with a person from the past, you need to hear his answers e do not impose your own on him yes, but here, as here, so to speak e creativity in science. here we once talked to you. hmm. in my opinion , extremely. it was closely discussed that

history is also a game, of course, there is also a place for creative imagination. let's say umbert. aika writes the name of the rose and there hoo. how many, including literary illusions, but this is a book. it is about the middle ages, too, and whether or not, well, uh, in general , man is the existence of human society and man is a hill. ludon man. yes, this is a very well-known concept, but the fact is that here is the research under this approach, which has dominated in the last 50 years let's say. so, unfortunately, especially, trying to understand those who lived before us , they imposed their thoughts on us and believed that in every era a person changes dramatically in all the little things, this is not so. here, uh now the old starts to break through the idea that in the main parameters these

are the parameters that a person, as a biological species, which is characterized by thinking and creative thinking. he remains, in general, with a rather stable objection to you or i will answer you with lotman, who said that in the whole era people loved , hated, experienced there, but did it in different ways correctly, they did it in different ways, but they exist, naturally, it remained and this allows humanity to maintain stability, if only there were changeable images that change in every era, not there would be a transfer of this integrity of humanity as a cosmic phenomenon and history. it unites and by the way. not a random reversal.

we know we will take the surface of rome first rome second rome in the third and fourth rome on well , the ocean is already raging, the crown is trying on rome in the fourth, this is the elements of the world famous historian, and we see how rome is trying on the crown in the fourth and therefore, uh hmm why now so hey tried uh, hmm fix something fukuyama said the story is over won, liberal democracy, turned out to have won nothing. and thank god, when the story ends, historians will not be needed. you me. i'm sorry, so bail. eh, in general , existence and history, as a science, is especially, but i'm talking more about history, which is in public in life and not only in conversations. and as one of the factors of formation every time a new historical reality, in this regard, i have this question

because? i recently talked with philologists here, then i involuntarily recalled, in my opinion, gasparov somewhere in the notes or he is bactinat quotes. uh, that shakespeare did not invest, there are hundredths of that hamlet that we read today. today we are also partly talking about the fact that each generation, including historical documents, is read in its own way, and how this can manifest itself in its own way . well, just in our own way, because we live here and now, that is, we look through the glasses that we have and, in general, we cannot take them off. yes, but nevertheless, we are still talking about people, and this is ours, this is fundamentally human unity in fact, yes, and speaking of people , we, but again, must understand. yes, they were other people. they lived in a different era. yes , but nonetheless. that's the most important thing that happened to them. this is what we, in principle, are able to understand, everything else

is, in general, details by and large, but we actually need it, precisely because of this experience and we say that there is fundamentally unity, about which we need to talk , which should be shared at 23 at the beginning of graduate school. i started practicing last by the romans. with us, this was not accepted on the merits, even in encyclopedias they did not mention with her one of all, which are now figures and scientific schools. that's it, i didn't think that i would have to go through all this. so, when i translated, a fighter and kosyadors and read these sources, when it’s better to go to the barbarians, it’s shameful to be a roman yourself, the name is shameful before that, by the way, augustine regretted all the same, yes, that he crushed the nut. rome was for him. yes, and when i had to endure in connection with the collapse of the country in which i was born and in which my life took place

all this and to see that understanding is completely different and that epoch also opened in a completely different way, because another interaction began on the personal level of the individual. that's why we read books, not what we watch clips, we empathize, we become these heroes, and a real historian should also be, he should be objective. but, if this interaction does not exist, history turns into a rigid scheme on decayed parchment. history is living perception. that's life. here, in my understanding, and each period and our period - this brilliant seemed to history has passed. of each of us, although many did not comprehend this, but all felt it. this can be, uh, obviously

i’ll make it so flat was a super pointed question, but why , as far as i understand, there is in the film about the great patriotic war, and the soldiers of the red army in uniform in the forty-second year. what could not be it would be bad officers. yes, it will be bad, because a historical mistake. but let's say when my beloved alexei fedorovich losev describes lika and we understand that he fantasizes, well, to the fullest, because how did he look there, did some trees grow there, how did they walk there? we don't know for sure. this is good. as i was assured, one antikovets. eh, or do you not agree with such a formulation of the question, respectively. well, i think that it’s all the same this question of distance, really, that is, let’s put it this way, when in a thousand years we will shoot a film about the great patriotic war, well, the pursuit of 42 will already come off, everything will be fine, everything will be real. we had some conversation here on

hmm this topic, i just wanted to clarify. but you have personal criteria for what you consider acceptable or unacceptable in historical fiction. well, in fiction it’s quite wide, it’s acceptable, because in fiction it’s important to influence and in this sense, shakespeare, uh , man, uh, anti-hysterical, because uh, when i read or saw, we even have a play, reacher 3 and saw this monster . it's all it's debunked , literally the remains. found richard that there was not a single fact that is. there was not even even his presence, but everyone remembers the monster of richard the third. if you look at more hmm earlier plays that are dedicated to the precursors of personality. you will find the same shakespeare did not write history.

he was not a historian. he was an artist. i'm not sure if it was just that someone would read a boring story with a change in the parameters of richard iii that he didn't have a hump there and that's it. this and this will be interesting. it will be an interesting unit very much to me like several times published. we have a book by mark frog, how children are told a story in different countries of the world. well, he expands his horizons especially when it is visible, and when, using the example of one country, he quotes in a textbook of different eras, and in general, the question , of course, with all the expansion of horizons remains, but the very objective history, how to find it, especially when today we say and say justifiably that we will not allow some things to be rewritten there that are important for us for our vision of the past, you can probably say so. that's what you think about it. well

, you just need to start from the fact that there is academic science and there is the teaching of history, but tell her school history school history is, after all, really the formation of a civic position. this is the formation of patriotism, yes, to say this is a conversation in general about love for one's country. and by the way, speaking of love in general, just for humanity at the same time, and of course, so to speak, anyone will again teach you to talk about the fact that everything was not easy there. yes, what can i say? there is no such to say, only such a black-and-white picture, a black-and-white picture is about theology. well, history is a mixture. yes? inevitably. absolutely. well, that is, understandable. yes, what is there to say the devil with god so to speak, e in the human heart is fighting, but it's all so covertly it turns out in the end, yes, that's why it's one thing.

so to say, here is a history teacher, he is talking about one story, he tells the children, and another thing is academic history. where, as a matter of fact , to say already, in principle, other approaches, it means that this is a very dangerous, so to speak statement. that is, he says that he is deceiving , it turns out he does not deceive them, but one approach to children is so for adults, another approach is a dialectical combination that cannot be avoided. this is education education. it's basically built on that. yes, so to speak, you can not take to come to the child and start feeding his baby, yes, with adult food. as the author of many and different textbooks, and how do you feel about the thought of the same kolinguda, so we started with him again, he remembered that textbooks always describe something different from what is now think real modern historians. and what the historians of the past thought, how great the risk of this, he drew attention, of course, to a very important thing, which we are now talking about,

that if we are talking about the present moment, then naturally, we cannot fix it. eh , in textbooks immediately and directly, nevertheless , the textbook reports some set of facts, but i want to say that in each country this set is different, and this has been the case since ancient times. and one more thought such that now here again with all the power to the historical arena came out, for example, the ancient eastern civilizations, those civilizations of some kind. uh, the middle east africa africa, which would seem hundreds of years hundreds of thousands even slept for years, and i assure you that in 20 years, if the situation continues and it is possible to form some kind of new system, history will look completely different and historians and uh, europe

european. we have a mostly european history, where europe or the european view dominates, even if this history of china , the chinese will never agree with it. i timidly told you about the third century bc asynchrony for us is a struggle, by the way, if carthage won, then there was not much. perhaps there would be no christianity. it would be closer to the phoenician civilization, therefore, yes, this is another question, but it must be said that they are my rights , justified rights, just as the struggle is going on now, for example, even about whether there was a special chinese person counted numerous e , representatives of primitive species, we know that this non-linear process was all this, therefore, i think that history will change a lot, world history and history

each country will have to find its historically grounded and historically structured place in this new world history. i accept, among other things, uh, valmator, uh, interviewing applicants, but they actually notice. this is not my deep observation that this sense of history is even at the level of knowledge of chronology. and in children today, well, either not, or it is very bad. and this, apparently, is connected there with some kind of teaching system, apparently connected with the fact that i am now trying to change, and so on. but if now it would be necessary to try to explain, to this very child, the applicant. and why is it important? so you would be responsible, how would you do it? well, it's really in teaching from this in general, the main main problem. yes, but ultimately.

and if you put the question in such a global way, then in general, the problem is, uh, to teach or, say, who gives a lecture on ancient greece yes, and especially not a historian, by the way, not students of historians , is to explain to a student how ancient greece is still since grows in his life. that is, why is she important to him a quiz. how would you answer. well, you know, if it's about ancient greece, no, i mean, that's why it's important. you see historical examples do not work. so i tell the students that look at the work of the collapse of idols, frank writes how they hoped that they thought, more precisely, that all evil is concentrated in the regime in the tsar in the gendarmes, you just need to change this and everything will change, and then when they realized that it wasn't so it was too late for me students answer that you tell us we are about life to you, and you tell us about some business? long gone days. here's how to convey it, that this all has to do with us in our time, it's very

difficult to convey, because the time i mean, here, unfortunately, is the beginning of the 21st, yeah. this means that the centuries were marked by the fact that people everywhere were busy with exclusively personal life with personal events. eh, in particular cases, they very often simply did not have the opportunity to think about something, only today's consciousness is oriented to today. look at politics, life, everything, and you haven’t thought about history. and all the more ascertaining was an accurate story. it ended with the triumph of the liberal model. i think that this is connected with this and it seems to me that those grandiose events that have been going on in recent years, they will return a person with a need, uh, to feel more deeply and uh, still look for support in their ancestors

in history itself random en- sometimes takes on monstrously funny forms, like dreams of europe or a dream of rome, by the way, not one johnson but the general secretary council of europe waltersteiner. he generally started his book. uh, hmm centuries of er or the beginning of man, he writes about the european union, as a pure dream we see, what this number has become. and how, during the french revolution, free ideas were stroked, and then these ideas went out into the street and turned into. uh, bloodthirsty monster, so i think that time uh will make people think and make them go back to history thank you very much. i think that we did not finish, but so it will be necessary to collect our thoughts. thank you very much again

victoria ivanovna ukolova doctor of historical sciences fyodor aleksandrovich gaida doctor of historical sciences. i am vladimir of the left. yes, we were gathering our thoughts about history. if you like to gather thoughts with us, you can find all our podcasts on the first channel website 1tv.ru. hello friends, this is the podcast life of the remarkables and with you i am its leading writer alexei varlamov, and today we will talk about the most mysterious and most unread russian writer of the 20th century about alexander green. all you must have read all you remember wonderful story alla and sails this touching story about a girl who believed in a dream and was awarded for her faith, but in fact, scarlet sails is from

my point of view. far from better. not the deepest. not the most interesting work of alexander green although, paradoxically, it overshadowed everything else that he wrote. this is already terribly unfair, but such cases do occur in the history of literature. and today at judge alexander grin's , let's try creativity, and talk a little. in the very at the end of his life, alexander stepanovich wrote a story, which he called very plainly. it's called an autobiographical tale and essentially does. this is such a confession, this is a kind of repentance and an attempt to answer the question to himself and his readers. why didn't i get anything? why did i live my life not at all the way i wanted, why did i become a loser, but it’s curious that i considered myself a loser and considered him, uh, other people considered him mikhail bulgakov but if in bulgakov’s case the causes of all troubles, and mikhail afanasyevich considered his literary enemies

enemies of envious critics, then if we read alexander green, we will see that he gives a very simple answer to this question, to blame for everything. so i was right or wrong in this harsh trial of himself, what do we know about this writer in general, and in 1880 in vyatka in the family of a polish revolutionary who was exiled in siberia and then married a russian woman and moved from siberia to vyatka , was born, a boy whose name was alexander brought him up from the hands. won bad green quite a lot. eh, place and attention give their story to how he was brought up. and this, if you like, is such anti-education roman, there was no consistency , he was either beaten or praised for anything , he was not accustomed to work or study. in general , growth is such a useless person, absolutely incapable of anything. but uh, he also

had such a feature, he loved to compose poems from childhood and once he composed poems addressed to his teacher at the gymnasium where he studied there were such satirical offensive poems. these poems read school the authorities were terribly indignant and green was expelled from the gymnasium. by the way, then he was already in a sense a green, because this pseudonym, as it were, is a truncation from the name of grennitskaya, everything. it appeared at school, where friends called him green pancake, which means after he was expelled from the gymnasium. he entered a real school. there, education was a little weaker with sin, he finished it in half, and at that time in the family. the body of green's mother died with misfortune, the father married a second time and the stepmother of the stepson frankly disliked and actually put him out of houses. and so it turns out, a fifteen-year-old boy, it turns out, well, it’s not that we rented some kind of housing there, vyatka is even still shown the house where green lived, but nevertheless the boy was left to himself and grew up with the dream

that he would leave, break out of this fasting world and go south, he dreamed of the sea, he dreamed of travel. he read such romantic books, and at the age of 17, and in hunting boots, as he himself later recalled, in a mexican hat with an ambrero. here is such a narrow chest chidushny, and a teenager comes to odessa to be hired on a steamer. nobody wants to take it. in the end. they took pity on him and took jung on some coaster, and now he remembered the small sails in the shafts. it's gray arthur gray and he certainly wasn't born in that. eh, simple family, he is a family of aristocrats, but still, he also runs away from home. he also dreams of the sea, he also enters the ship as a cabin boy and endures all sorts of ridicule from the sailors, endures all sorts of difficulties. well gray is courageous stubborn purposeful a young man who eventually

overcomes all his obstacles. the captain pays attention to him. he begins to teach him the wisdom of the sea and gray realizes his dream. yes, he becomes the captain of the owner, and everything happened to a wonderful sailing ship with a green, absolutely. vice versa. after the first difficulties he saved him and was expelled in disgrace, and from the place of service he went on his axis, uh, to his native home, but we note that here you can see the mechanism of grin's future creativity. everything that is not succeeded in his life. his unfulfilled dreams are all his actions. he gave to his heroes. this is really very interesting. it didn’t work out in life, then it will turn out in literature, and such examples in green’s life and work can be seen, but quite a lot. for example, green has a lot of widowed fathers. remember, although points and sails, but the widows of alexander grin's fathers never marry a second time, but this is so

by the way so he returns to the viatka absolutely. here is a worthless young man. basically, uh, he doesn't know what to do. he does not want to study, he is unsuitable for any profession, and in the end he ends up in a bad company, which begins to engage in theft, but also with friends. they stole a gold chain from a local, and the branch dentist is curious that many years later , green will write a wonderful novel, just a super-duper novel, if scarlet sails is such a fairy tale for girls, then the novel that green will write will be called a golden chain, and this, if you want scarlet. for boys and such a wonderful story of growing up a teenager overcoming difficulties, but what is curious here, and the plot of this story is based on the case of how a certain sailor accidentally dug out a huge golden chain in the sand and thanks to this chain. he became insanely rich, that is, a small chain, which was stolen from

a dentist together with friends, then turned into green's fantasy into a huge gold chain. this is how alexander grin lived and worked. but it will be all ahead, so far, what does he care about this literary work of his. it will still be necessary to reach the swim, to this shore and the sea of ​​\u200b\u200blife is higher to it degrees unfairly and the waves hit him from all sides and here begins, perhaps, the most interesting, the most dramatic, the most paradoxical, and the period of his life was picked up by the sirs. that is, this is already russia , which is such a russia of pre-revolutionary times , already various political parties. and, of course , the sir parties are the biggest. the bolshevik party, while still in its infancy, the acp already exists in full force in russia, and gren was offered to engage in revolutionary propaganda, which he successfully began to do. and here it turns out that this worthless good-for-nothing young man has an incredibly dexterously suspended tongue. maybe it's very convincing to tell all sorts of

revolutionary propaganda tricks. and ironically. and rather, not even some kind of neural fate here, but a wise plan, and the leadership of the socialist-revolutionary party sent him to the city of sevastopol to the black sea fleet among the sailors of the black sea fleet. and now green rim begins to tell all sorts of tales about the horrors of the tsarist regime, and besides, here, apparently, this unrealized love for him sea ​​into the profession of a sailor. that's all, it filled with such persuasiveness that the sailors listened to him open, and his mouth, and he was, in general, such a very glorious and excellent propagandist. here's but the tale - it didn't last very long, because in the end he was captured by the police. and here, too , there is a very interesting twist of the plot on the day when the police grabbed green, he had a very good intuition. and so he felt that he didn't have to go on the, uh, assignment today, but there was a woman, and, in fact, that woman was the main reason. why did green engage in

revolutionary propaganda with such fervor, he loved this girl very much. she was also a revolutionary, this wonderful girl was called ekaterina bieber gal and her father was just the people of the volts, and one of those who were still raising the red banner a in st. petersburg in the sixties of the xix century. uh, bieber galya means they were seized, they were judged , they were sent to hard labor. and in nerchinsk, there, in wickedness, his daughter katya was born, who from childhood was brought up as a revolutionary, and it was she who worked with alexander green it was this very revolutionary propaganda in sevastopol that green was incredibly in love with. and so, when he said that i would not go today. she, as they say, took him on weakly. he was ashamed to show his cowardice, but they really seized him, and then the investigation began and imagine what a portrait loomed in front of the investigator the man who deserted from the army is engaged in revolutionary propaganda

among military sailors, in fact, green. threatened to have fun from the death penalty. his saved. the first russian revolution, those changes in legislation, the mitigation of laws that occurred as a result of the e-revolution , therefore he was tried, but the punishment was not so severe. green ended up in prison and out of this prison. he twice tried to escape with the help of katya, but since he was a man who did not know how to do anything, then at the right time. he could not climb over, and over the wall and in general so in this very prison, and he stayed and sat there. all 2 years that were, and he was assigned. uh, and when he got out of this prisons. he is forbidden to go to the capitals to moscow and st. petersburg, but he violates this ban and goes to st. petersburg because katya lives in st. petersburg, they never meet in st. petersburg . green tells katya that he is pissing off the revolution and he

suggests that she take the party scythe and run to the island. tahiti green adored katya katya adored the revolution and that's why she didn't want to run away with the green, and it was no coincidence that alexander stepanovich later called himself wild mustam. in fact. this was a man of mad passions. he was a very furious man, and in anger he grabbed the revolver that he had and shot at katya, the bullet did not hit any vital organ. there was just a lot of blood. but after that, green-skate no longer met . the socialist-revolutionaries kicked him out. from that moment , green began to engage in literary work , the taste for which he just got. uh, working for the socialist-revolutionaries, since. not only did he, uh, tell all those beautiful tales of his to the sailors. well, i wrote some leaflets. yes, that is, here he is the future australian, their sails are the future, the author of wonderful gothic stories romanov came to russian literature. here from this side.

this is a podcast life of the wonderful with you, i am its host alexei varlamov and we are talking about alexander green, the first book he wrote was called the invisibility hat, and it was just dedicated to eras, and it was published in 1907 or 1908 and it’s terribly insulting that they didn’t really read it then , they didn’t really read it now, he is writing a second book too book realistic very so gloomy. uh, in the spirit of leonid andreev, in the spirit of kuprin, in the spirit of early gorky, who, by the way , everyone read him, everyone knew him helped him to one degree or another, although they were treated a little arrogantly. and this is special, no matter how green's situation, he was never considered a major serious writer. and, of course, this oppressed him. but you know, he once said such a phrase about himself that i am the writer of the tenth

option there, but in this series, besides me, there are more. nobody here. and it's true if we let's take the literary situation of the silver age, where we had symbolists and mazhenists. uh, i don’t know, acmeists, realists, futurists , anyone, then there were many different igmas, then green will still keep to himself. and this is his isolated position in russian literature before the revolution after the revolution, but what makes this person unique, of course, he was an incredible hard worker, and he was actually a person who was looking for seeing that his first two books, written in a realistic manner . and this is a very good book and i repeat terribly it's a shame that they remained, in general , unnoticed green that's it then he comes up with this very country of his greenland it was then in his third book. he begins to compose stories, he begins to invent heroes with foreign names. and the action of these stories takes place

incomprehensibly, where it is incomprehensible. in what countries but obviously in this southern fictional countries and subsequently criticism. he will call this greenland country, and the country of greenland, i must say that when these stories were first published, very many green was suspected of not having told them himself. and that he stole them, in general, this is the plot, as if with plagiarism with stolen novels. he, apparently, in literature is such, but an eternal plot. but in the case of green, but there was such a bike, what does it mean that green supposedly killed some english captain , stole a chest with his stories from him and began to print, and under his own name all this, of course, complete nonsense, but, nevertheless, smoke , there is no fire. let not the english captain. but he shot at his beloved, but at this time it must be said, how soon, because. he broke up with katya when he began to work, and

another woman entered his life as a writer to write his first books. she was the exact opposite of the green, and she came in because he was back in jail. so this time he was put in jail, because he a lived without a passport, because he lived in st. petersburg where he could not live. and so , a girl came to see him on a date averbal on abramov her name was 24 years old, and she later wrote in her reminiscences that when she came, and into the cell to alexander grinov, the first thing this man did. he rushed over to her and kissed her on the lips. and this was the first kiss in my life modestly. she continues , and now he made a huge impression on her, and later, when the hryvnia was once again condemned and sent into exile in siberia , he still managed to escape from this exile. here is perhaps the only case. and when he managed to escape, and he ran to this very faith, he said that he fled. uh, for her and soon. they began to live together soon, they got married. this was the first wife of alexander

grin, she was completely different from katya bibergal, and she absolutely did not like the revolution. she loved a quiet life, but with a green, she did not succeed in any quiet life. but this whole plot, and later entered the wonderful story of alexander grin, which i advise everyone to read the story, which is called 100 miles along the river, where grin allegorically describes the history of his crimes and punishments, the history of his youth. and just like that, he lived like this, he worked in the pre-revolutionary years. he published books that did not enjoy fantastic success. no, of course, against the background of gorky, they played yes andreev there alexei tolstoy ah. green was not such a prominent figure, but he was a writer with his own voice. it was a writer with his own intonation, but also, as it were, with his own literary land, with his own

literary island surrounded by seas on all sides, but it was an island. uh, alexander green, who was inhabited by no a foreigner of russian literature, as the critics of the silver age called him, like no one else. then the seventeenth year begins, the revolution comes, and and, and green's attitude to the revolution. in general, there was something negative in his prose. this is an aversion to politics and in general to any state activity. it feels very sharp. look at the stories like the tragedy of a plateau dream , a completely wonderful story, green seems to be like, again , somewhere out there it is not clear somewhere in africa the action is taking place, but certainly a story, having the most direct relation to the russian revolutionary situation, but the beginning of the 20th century. and therefore, when e occurs, the revolution green does not perceive it, but another matter. what no