to say what is the main difference? yes, absolutely they. they see the events taking place differently. they have a different attitude, even i know people who left business for the civil service. you can be in the civil service, but not be an official. this is the state of being an official. you can generally, that is, enter another environment and preserve your own. the main thing is to be afloat in the system, and somehow you feel yourself there and relate to other people. these are different things. now there is. at least among my friends there is. but, if we are talking about the majority, then, of course, with it’s difficult to communicate with them, that is, you knew people who were future entrepreneurs finding themselves in a bureaucratic environment. they changed that worldview absolutely. that is, we no longer hear each other. if i was initially glad that they were going into one or another so to speak gr industry, and i understood that there would definitely be interest from business there. you saw how it all felt like sand through your fingers. i say, where did those words go? as they say, where did that petrovich go and he’s not there? it’s certainly easier now after the pandemic,

because we depend on each other. really get it now. yes, really, right before my eyes, one of our vice presidents is 100 million. a grand for import substitution production is right now, this is a week ago, and in general it’s been 23 years. uh, this is the year. eh, let's put it this way. well, it’s just better than 22, there’s a scary twentieth. but let’s say that after the twentieth and twenty -first, everything that’s happening now in the business environment is no longer so scary. that is, it is still truly the most terrible year. it was the twentieth, when everything dies, but this is a blow. well let it hit the cheek, but very hard. although i want to say absolutely a lot. i even remember 2020 on march 28th. we are closing the entire network. i say, then for 17 regions. we closed. we just don’t understand how, how to close, there are 150-200 stores of different things, you are absolutely perishable for up to a week and

ultra perishable for 48 hours, there are positions there like phalaenopsis or dendrobium, there is an archive about flowers perishable perishable group of goods the same applies to products, but they were not closed, that is, the flowers turned out to be the only perishable port is closed and they have not yet been recognized, that is, their flower activity has not been recognized as victims. well, that was also won here. the industrial trade tent helped us a lot. as a result, where do i then also say, uh , support for small medium-sized businesses from a financial point of view. well, look, there are more than 200-250 million losses due to the pandemic during the first closure. this is my personal, and grant or what do you call it? this assistance from the state for one company amounted to 186,000 rubles. this i really liked it, then the way out of the pandemic. and the fact that, of course, where they could have

worsened not worsened, that is, in principle, to communicate today. the state can go in step with it from a business point of view, this is my personal statement, not from the side of the authorized person, but from the side of entrepreneurship. this is a plus or a minus, that is, for russian companies it is realistic to occupy the niches of departed competitors in high-tech ones that have long worked for those that have left. look. i am an importer of 95% of products. not only floral ones that i one way or another i sell it on russian markets. i import from about 15 different countries , many of them are under sanctions. i want to tell you, so the closure of the country from the point of view of communication of money within is accumulation. sorry about the money inside. that's good. but if you and i look at 2022, no less money left the country than in 2019 or 2018, these are statistics. therefore, if we are talking about the closedness of the market, then

it seems to me that the basis is the preservation of money inside our ball, that is, and e, they should spin here even if there are real sanctions if they make money from the point of view of importing goods, now they don’t work, then, of course, then we will lose many people who work, because people installed them, they don’t want them to work, they are in bypass mechanisms, because there are entrepreneurs. excellent answer. yes, we will not fall in love with this topic, because there are entrepreneurs that are missing. now for entrepreneurs. yes, uh, because i very often hear the phrase that guys don’t need it. no support, the main thing is not to disturb the ladies. that's what weakening is regulatory policy, that is, what is missing. now, so that everything can blossom , this is the most notorious import substitution with magnificent light and people are not afraid to open business purchasing. there not for a year or two. let's say 5-10 years there. listen, if we are still talking about they are simply replacement, then we will still talk to you about

agricultural production and so on. yes, for this you need one simple thing that is as cheap as possible. loans in which what is the rate, here you are, this is my professional question, two percent real 2%. for which then very large banks will not come, in a year they will not redraw it, or in two , and they will begin to squeeze out your business. uh, if there is access to cheap loans. then you and i are from somewhere. sorry resource country. and now we, uh, well, are at the level, probably, of a resource colony that we have always been in recent years, in my opinion. from the point of view, well, i define the russian federation within the economy based on some kind of world standards. this is a resource colony, so we can now leave this resource colony. main, still present gas oil what other smart words that cost money we know everything, we need cheap loans, cheap loans are needed for everyone for the brain to understand, it’s good to have money, which will reassure

the entrepreneur in that regard. i mean psychology. yes, he tore out the heart, he’s ready. they say his eyes speak, they say his brains , he knows how to captivate. he knows how to captivate him , he likes it all, what should fuel him, in addition to cheap loans emotionally, what should order him around. uh, recognition from the outside government. first of all, for a long time entrepreneurs and businessmen were treated rather ambivalently, so to speak, the state brought up in the minds of people, and the general mass of people in our country that an entrepreneur is a swindler. this is a thief. this is a machine that was, yes, but not the one who sacrifices his whole life for the sake of a common cause and this is definitely the slogan on the building of entrepreneurs. we support you. listen to the confession. uh, the first persons of the fact that without entrepreneurs. this country will not go far towards our country. our country is definitely right. yes well noted, i agree. and that's right, that is.

uh, in order for the heart to burn, there needs to be recognition from the outside of a certain fact of security, that is, when an entrepreneur does not want to invest money for a long time, not because he is not sure that he will not recoup something in 5 years. he is not sure that in 4 years it will be his or that in 4-4 years it will still function, that is, within certain limits. yes, there are certain components. he is confident in his business model and in himself, but there are only factors, not counting the global ones within ours. countries that can influence the business model to collapse and his health to collapse. the ability to operationally manage a business and whatever these things are. they remain throughout the moscow business meeting. it was created, in principle, from people who want to develop in our country, who want their children to live here and develop, but for this we need a guarantee, in addition to our strong fists and confidence in our future. let's. so i will say this, summing

up all that has been said and especially the last parts, and remember the absolutely wonderful soviet film we'll live until monday. and remember how the main character he wrote, uh, one line in the essay, what is happiness, he wrote happiness is when you are understood, i agree, correctly agree, happiness for an entrepreneur is when he is accepted and accepted in his native country. and in principle, this is enough, and even cheap money is also secondary. agree. ivan thank you very much. thank you for your frankness. and thank you, even for the fire with which i walked. right now in this interview, because it was clear that you were talking about painful issues. that is, these are not some routine stamps. these are not some phrases taken from textbooks. this is your native self. thank you, it's worth a lot. thank you. this was an easy money podcast, and i am its host, mikhail khanov. today we have a completely difficult topic, which we discussed as if we were running our own business, and our guest is serial entrepreneur ivan tsenkov.

hello, i'm dmitry bug here for the podcast. let them not talk, let them read and in our podcast we are with various wonderful interlocutors talk about any reading options, so that you do not read parchments, e or modern reading devices of manuscripts or your ancient letters to classics or modern literature. still, we need to talk about this; we talk about who exactly is reading. who makes literature, who writes, we talk about what needs to be read, but today we will talk about a very special topic. and how reading happens to us, what happens, how we read reading. this is

part of consciousness, this is part of our thinking , our intellect. that's what we're talking about today we will talk with our wonderful guest - this is tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya , a specialist in the field of cognitive sciences. hello dear tatyana vladimirovna, hello. i am very glad to talk with you today, when i was choosing how to introduce you, i settled on the definition of specialists in the field of cognitive sciences. in general, correct. it is very narrow and yet wide. i would say it's rather wide. yes, because cognitive sciences include many different sciences, so philosophy, of course, because if we are awareness we say, where without philosophy they even include mathematics. biology, of course, everything is in order. one could say that tatyana chernigovskaya is a doctor of biological

sciences, doctor of philology, but the main thing today is cognitive science. as you, of course, understood. well, the root is so semi-familiar to hypnosis, i know the gnathology of cognition. when we talked to you before the program, i remembered hmm how alexander vasilyevich pyatigorsky , our great, humanist researcher of buddhism, philosopher, uh, presented his book, being no longer young. he said, so here i am i came here and i see. uh, two ladies talking. one speaks. oh, how difficult it is to live, and the other one answers her. and you, be philosophical and don’t think wonderful, a brilliant definition, considering that both he and i are mordashvili. both separately and together they have written many times about the enormous work of thinking, that it is very difficult to hold a thought, that the process of thinking itself is very difficult, regardless of the topic. and somehow we don’t even realize it. yes , because we often think about what exactly

we are thinking, yes, what about the topic this is how it all happens in us, by the way, very difficult process. i tried to do some kind of introspection and think about how i think it’s almost. can i have things from tolstoy that we will talk about today? i hope uh in the story. eh, boyhood is a brilliant fragment. i remember him almost by heart. he sounds so inclined lighthouse distracted. this thinking drove me to the extreme. for example, i thought about something and created questions for myself, and what am i thinking about now and answered. now. i think about what i think about, and now what am i thinking about, i asked myself. and now i'm thinking about what i'm thinking about that i think the mind came to the point over and over again . wonderful. this is actually called recursion. i mean, if we translate this into our avian scientific language, then it will be

a recursion of the course, when one thing is in another in another, this is hmm, we buy this. it's very difficult. this makes it difficult to live. look here. for example, i’m looking at tatyana vladimirovna of chernigov now, whom i respect very much. i love him, i love communicating with her and we are no longer talking about you, but thinking about what is happening to me at this time. yes, i try, yes, that's all, and you have already dissolved. i think it’s no longer right , but it is so. we know this, and we are so dissolved when we read, since soon we are in the subject. let them not talk, let them count. yes, yes, and in general, when in any art, we, uh, drowned. yes, that is, well, it’s like you’re no longer there, but it’s very difficult because, recently, i was thinking about how difficult it is to listen to music. i mean, no, but seriously, and music so

that you don’t get carried away, then your own thoughts so that you don’t cling. they are for some external physical landmarks before your eyes not for the internal ones? more difficult, what is there to cling to? you know, i was once simply plowed by theodor adorn’s phrase. well, he is also a music expert, as we remember very well, in addition to all his other talents, and he said an amazing thing. we are now getting closer to the topic of technology, which i was going to ask you about, and he said, in order to really hear the music. you must first get to where it is performed. oh , what a brilliance, after all, of course, live music and the fact that from any good. uh the device is leaking. this is still a completely different effect. although physically. this is almost impossible to explain, because these modern devices are of a very

high class. well, you see, yes, yes, but this is not at all the same as somehow having to grab yourself. this is a living situation, living life. i think the reason here is that you understand that this only happens here, and will not happen again, when you come to the symphony concert. you understand that this music will float away forever, even if it is recorded on a tape recorder, that is, tarkovsky said andrei tarkovsky spoke about captured time. yeah, that is, well, we remember that from eisenstein it’s a montage of comparison of different plans, and from tarkovsky it’s a long long mesa micro-frame, like at the beginning of the film, a mirror where you find yourself inside this life. that is, you must impose an artist. now these oh, by the way, we also talked about this with shamans, though, because they have some of their own, but very strange instruments that they

they don’t realize it themselves, i think. they pull you into a different time into a different space, yes, that is , you are something else, this is some kind of very significant transition. in general, to be honest, uh, you know, recently it occurred to me that if we finally finish the game, and people on this planet will no longer be like this, and then something will happen and either there were some intellectual and perhaps more moral beings will fly here from other universes. yes and now they will look at what is left of us, then, i think, with amendments, but after all, the main thing will be art. of course , i seriously think about this, of course, my fellow scientists will tell me no. well, you forgot einstein there, that’s all, i didn’t forget anything, but

what can no one else do?

incomparably larger than the narcissistic steven pinker. eh, in several places, he writes the following: art is like purges. he writes that, in principle, if this art disappeared, then in general, nothing special would happen, because the main things are not there, the main things are the cartridges, right? or measure and weigh. well, it’s like, when you’re already tired of real life, yes, you can look at art. now, even if you shoot me, i think it can’t be the other way around. art is exactly what distinguishes us and moving on to our topic. and of course, first of all , writing in general.

most importantly, we don’t know geniuses, who invented the needle, for example, who the knife, well, we don’t talk about forks , because it appeared very late, yes, but there was some kind of genius who came up with the idea hmm what’s not good, when all knowledge that you have accumulated and will leave with you, it would still be nice to take care of your relatives and leave them something. well, that is, this is copying reduplication. uh, you know once, uh, nikolai grintsev. eh, now chelengur, cherintsera himself fell to his youngest son. eh, i asked, do you read plato and i said, i read it all the time. yes, and then calm down about electronic books, because plato was unhappy when they copied, reduplicated, and replicated. or rather, socrates. well, his teaching is understandable. yes, but that is, it is necessary to learn to simply walk with socrates was next to him, and they were right. and they were right. yes, well, that is, great inventors.

for the first time, hmm, he multiplied and replicated something , then the language of printing, now a computer, well, let’s not talk about watson crick and the double helix. and dna, but uh, this is a trap. how would you evaluate the two events of the last month on the one hand? uh, the great american technologist. e of an electric car, well, the check is quite bright and so on on the one hand. he calls for restrictions on artificial intelligence research. and through a few weeks, probably, yes, he receives permission to conduct experiments on, uh, neuro-chipping. that's right, he received this permission. this is contradictory. eh, one thing to another. is this a dead end or not? or is it progress it’s their own fault for saying the word progress in the first place, me.

eh, in general i doubt that there is a pragg in russia, except for technology, of course, technology is a yoke after all from the fontanka next to which i live, i don’t carry water and for trying to destroy such a large object or subject, like a washing machine i will simply kill anyone with a car, because it is impossible to live without it. no, but it’s scary to remember, at the same time. i'm not being sarcastic. i don't mean shocking. i'm serious. but but because this story with neural networks, these gpt all these options. she worried me terribly and, moreover, she began to worry me before it appeared. namely, that they will appear. they appeared 12 years later. they are here, just like these guys are here. and at the same time, and i’m sure all those with whom i spoke, including the developers, because i had the opportunity to talk for some time

back with one of them uh-huh but, but everyone understands what this step is. this is a step into another civilization, absolutely, and in this civilization it is absolutely not a fact that we have a place for humans. there is no place there, because we are a hard lump of mucus that can live between minus thirty and plus thirty . god knows what and even whether we exist. we are taking a good road for you and me inside this conversation, namely yes, but they cannot create such art, what they can’t do, they can do quite a lot of things, that’s another question. do we consider this art and why? give beethoven yes, and what do we have to do with this? i keep asking the same question like a maniac and i will ask you, that is, it is rhetorical, namely, we plan to live here. are we still planning to live on this planet or not? i think not everyone plans, because i

remember the soviet cartoon about vovka in the far away kingdom, where two young men have identical faces. there, they talked something into the oven, pies, or something, and he was perplexed. eh, vovka asks the question, what will you eat yourself, of course, we will eat it ourselves and throw ourselves over you. that is, you are no longer needed, in that's the point. well, what should you do, you need to stop somehow. well, i'll try to be very brief, but there's danger. what is the danger? eh, this is what i say, partly what i think myself. that is, i definitely agree with what i’m about to say, but this and what scares me much more is what they themselves think, and what the developers think is what scares them. and i didn’t come up with this word. they were scared; the most honest of them were scared. uh, two things, firstly, the speed of development of these things is calculated in days. you see, when we

spoke before, we spoke in 15 years, in 20 in 30. these days are our physiological nature. three cameras on the phone can't keep up with this. but i don’t need them, and tomorrow there will be eight cameras. for what? yes, this is a scary story, firstly, these things learn very quickly on their own, and secondly, they began to learn. so that even the developers themselves don’t really understand what’s going on. this is the most dangerous thing. well, reading winter. yes, as a matter of fact, the three laws of robotics foresaw everything. this is so, in addition, for some reason we, as the default consciousness of such a consciousness, for some reason believe that artificial intelligence, potential large strong artificial intelligence , which does not yet exist, that it is directly asleep and sees how to become human, no one promised this, except

we ourselves, of course, no one said that they would follow this path. it is not the only way and not even the dogs that we will not understand. i don't think we understand anymore. in my youth i was very interested in lemmas. i corresponded with him recently and read, yes, 22 volumes of them, half of them are treatises and the late lemm understood all this, yes, and the same solaris clear says that e is simply a singular subject. already has a different subjectivity of a completely different identity. i remind you of this podcast. let them not talk, let them read. i'm dmitry bug, my guest is tatyana vladimirovna chernigovskaya, a specialist in the field of cognitive science, and we continue the conversation about modern art , artificial intelligence, and why it is still necessary to read a lot and carefully. please tell me why buddhist practices are so relevant. you amazed me just by sending materials

recent conference on animal suffering. yes , it was called, uh, the animal conce conference, that’s exactly what it was called. she is blessed with support. yes, well, yes, it opened right at the residence, and then went on, since it was quite long, namely 5 days for such conferences. this is a lot, as you and i know. yes, of course, and i wonder what they took there? all the speakers were invited, and there, of course, there were reports from which, uh , the roof went crazy, because, let’s say, the consciousness of an octopus, the consciousness of a hydra. consciousness in bees consciousness of snails. i'm not even talking about the higher ones. we are not the only ones, that is, we cannot measure the world by how we see the non-anthropoid world at all. yes, of course, of course, there is still

a trap here. and all professionals agree with this, except the stupid ones, namely, we have no agreement on what we will consider consciousness and none. this is a very large spectrum at one end of which there is generally, uh, any reaction to anything. it’s like a conscious gesture, and then the ciliates and the shoes. actually, buddhism is erupting lava is not alive. it is you who are pulling us into the field of culture, vernadsky said that in antiquity the population, but this is still not important, and on the other hand, at the other end of this spectrum, there are those who believe that consciousness is awareness, that is, reflection, then about what we talked about, thinking about thinking and so on, then ergo yes, and this is

a huge space. so, when we ask a question. do fish have consciousness? then we must agree on what we mean and moreover, this is such an ulcer, as i, for example , will say. how do you know what she has? does this fish have a goldfish in its head? maybe she has some serious thoughts there, that is, well, we’ll go so far. i you know in our family this is all very developed. although we are not buddhists. no, i won’t be planning an octopus for a long time. i always felt that it was me who had never been to spain many years ago, but i was so ashamed, then, when i found out, what a smart guy, but it’s mine. it’s terrible, really, here you can get that now even the plants think, so you can’t breathe, because there’s a lot of

stuff flying around here. yes bacteria there. well i don't i know, my wife’s mother does not raise her hand to tell my mother-in-law that she is younger than me, she carries spiders, well, so that it would be good, well, the mows are at home. yes, yes, but the turtle is all snails. but there is such a lady, fashion designer parfenova. maybe you know, it’s absolutely brilliant. by the way, we are talking about mathematics. as a result, we became very interesting friends with her. she is a maniac for all kinds of plants and insects. this was on the topic of cockroaches. lord, in the garden, and she is weeding something, and she apologizes to every weed. he says, sorry, it’s my own fault. it won't fit when grown up. yes grown up in the wrong place, otherwise i wouldn’t have touched you. and she wouldn’t touch her for anything, but here, no matter how much you’re supposed to be forgiven, imagine, she’s not a maniac, and

she’s not crazy. you know, your phrase once shocked me. i don’t remember, you wrote this, but you have a lot of books. here is one of them, by the way, on my table is the cheshire smile of schrödinger’s cat, the book tatyana chernigovskaya, the brain is the language of consciousness, so i once read you about how the brain works from a ten-watt light bulb. that is, thank god, there is still some hope has died down, yes, that is, there is technology, but for now there remains this, uh, strange, uh , phenomenon of the brain, uh, which is unclear, how the brain works, the most complex thing in the universe except the universe itself, at least from what it’s about wants something, we know its complexity. just sorry for the tautology and goes beyond our general understanding, as i say. brain we are beyond our brains, we cannot cope with this. that is, it is not 10 tenths. yes, i’m just telling you this, it means

now. although i don’t understand how they think it’s under threat of execution, but it’s supposed say that there are 86 billion neurons. and billions of neurons, each neuron has several thousand connections with other places, which means that all that happens in our brain is the connections of this with this, and several thousand. these are already some atoms of the universe. in short , the number of compounds that explain what they do not explain, nothing, that record what is happening with us, they simply are a quadrillion. these are prohibitive numbers ; moreover, not only neurons play there, but there are also cells that no one has looked at before i didn’t pay attention to what is called glial cells, and they slurp , and it was always believed that this was a kind of material, material, and moreover, uh, well, for the signal to go

, it needs to be isolated. in short , such simple properties were rewritten ; the trouble turned out to be that this clay has it in the first place. there is a lot of smart memory there and there is 10 times more of it, that is, in fact, it turns out that we do not know ourselves. and in this sense, that is, in us, that is, we do not know ourselves in the sense that we we see only their vision, they are the real world. yes, we see, we do not see infrared rays, apparently ultraviolet, we hear only our hearing , that is, the auditory visual machine that is left in us, but we know we feel, we feel only our brain, and even with errors, because it you understand when it comes to , then the natural sciences and the cognitive part of cognitive science when it measures something, discovers it, looks at it, records it, otherwise it gives the impression that yes, but you have

objective methods. there are tamographs correctly and follographers. there are all sorts of vibration devices with the help of which we can see what is true in the brain. but what about the interpretation, so i’ll get 18 million tons of different numbers. next, what i will do with him next enters my consciousness. or whatever we call it. yes, and i’ll say, it seems to me that this is what you say, but it seems to me that this is what you don’t think, in one word, in the words of pyatigorsky. and uh, now moving on to the second part of our reasoning. i think that they will already be devoted to literature to a greater extent. and i hmm, let me ask you a question. and to what extent are general ideas possible at all? if everything is so relatively general in a very different sense, uh, mathematical axioms and moral truths. well, if

the general thing is that while i was coming to you, i read the diaries of leo nikolayevich tolstoy. yes, and these are amazing things, how he contradicts himself all the time, he writes opposite things, but he writes for himself. this is a diary, it is supposed that he is talking to himself, that there is no reader at all, and therefore he writes very honestly. i would say, remembering my year with someone , that this is something like inner speech. there is such a very sparse syntax, sometimes they are just nominative. e luria lev semyonovich. gotsky, two classics. psychology. yes, yes, yes , internal speech, it’s not like i ’m saying the same phrases with my mouth closed. and this is what precedes external speech and everywhere throughout the classics. and it is believed that this is a different type

of organization of speech, but it is not there. no subordinate clauses there, adverbial clauses there. and this is the interlocutor myself, why do i need a lot of syntax when it’s enough to say i’ve arrived, and i know where i came or who came? that is, these are generally closed hermetic texts. and this is what you see there, he writes honestly about himself and you see that he writes things that are the opposite. that is, he is so great and honest that he is not afraid to say it. but this is very difficult. well, i, too, was shocked at one time by both the diaries of tolstoy and and the topic that boris mikhailovich himbaum wrote about them, the great if you follow or tolstoy and he says that tolstoy writes, but about the plans of her disappointments. yeah sat down to play learn cards.