[000:00:00;00] to resist this, besides, how to say, we will cope, it doesn’t matter, and naturally, to do what is already being done , very successfully, increasing the capabilities of the russian military industry, better training of russian military personnel, and of course, even greater moral support from the russian people, all this is very important, but russia can do something to influence... and to somehow bring under control this endless escalation of assistance to kiev. it's difficult for me to comment on the political aspect because we never know how for example, the situation will develop. ruslan, excuse me for interrupting you, we all feel the same way. no, no, i, that you have an opinion. look, at one time churchill, when he talked about relationships, politics,

the army and defense. the first year he said almost nothing, the second year - a little, the third year almost everything, the fourth year more than necessary, so i think approximately the same formula may be applied to ukraine, the europeans are really having an extremely difficult time without america, and political in military terms, but european military-industrial the complex, with all its limitations, is quite powerful, yes, it is not homogeneous, it is at different speeds, but the first year is extremely little, the second year more, next year they will be able to give zelsky even more, in the fourth year even more than probably , he will have people, accordingly, in the field of armaments, i think ukraine will not have problems, but with people - this is a very big issue, and this is an issue that needs to be studied, another point that could

play against ukraine if this will become a bone of contention between the electorates of the two candidates or several, of course, to the americans again, precisely because you are talking about the most important thing and you are saying very interesting things, i want to be sure that i understand your position correctly, in other words, talk about ukrainian possibilities, ukrainian restrictions, but you do not say that russia his country can do something to try to reduce this assistance, you know, the situation is mirrored, the fighting will be over, the one who has more people on the line of combat contact, the one who has more high-precision weapons, yes, we know that

the russian government. does not want to traumatize russian society with a new wave of mobilization, a whole series of other unpopular actions , we know that on the line of battle in some places we have a double superiority from the enemy who is trying to attack us, we are successfully fighting back, but nevertheless , therefore, if we want to turn this military action according to our scenario, and not behave reactively, then of course, it is necessary to increase the number of troops, increase if ruslan, thank you, this a very competent answer, but you know very well that you generally proceed from the fact , at least it sounds like you proceed from the fact that russia can increase its capabilities and is already doing this successfully, but to influence the collective west

, reduce your assistance, don’t you think that this is... a real task, at least you are not offering anything in this regard, it is quite possible that your position is honest and wise, because i don’t hear that anyone is proposed, i considered it necessary to ask and discuss this, but this does not mean that there is an honest, competent, but positive answer to my question. dmitry, let me just add a few words, oleg korpovich, vice-rector of the diplomatic academy and we are very glad to welcome you. thank you, thank you, and i absolutely agree with what ruslan said, because when the conflict in ukraine began, many, especially western experts, they argued that this would be an intellectual war, that various so to speak would be very seriously involved there , artificial intelligence and so on, that is positioned that this would be a war of a somewhat different nature, and there would be a lot of technology and artificial intelligence involved; in fact, as

practice has shown, this is still in progress. the conflict was not used so actively and so effectively, i absolutely agree with ruslan’s opinion that, after all, human beings come first. resources, people, indeed the human factor comes first, as for the total number of ukraine, i recently read the former representative of the ukrainian government azarov, he said that according to his calculations, according to his sources , 23 million people now live on the territory of ukraine, you know, everything you said is correct, just like what ruslan said is correct, you agree with each other , and i agree with you, but my question is somewhat different, my question is not what russia can do. to fight more successfully, and my question is not about what russia can count on in terms of natural limitations, including demographic, ukrainian capabilities, my

question is whether russia has the opportunity to really influence the collective west, which is increasing, increasing supplies to ukraine, counting on insecurity, you know, it occurs to me that we... do not have complete, if you like, coincidence here, not even positions, but instincts, because i lived most of my conscious life in america, in america it always proceeds from the fact that if there are problems, there is a solution, if you are not satisfied with what someone will do, then you should at least look for opportunities to convince them, and when i say convince , i mean with help intellectual arguments, and that there should be some levers of pressure, and that this topic needs to be seriously thought about, and from our

conversation i have the feeling that maybe i am too optimistic about the possibilities of doing something about this constant qualitative escalation, quantitative escalation, but most importantly qualitative escalation of what the collective west is doing for ukraine, but for some reason it seems to me that russian capabilities in this area, let’s say, are not guaranteed in terms of results, but real, tell me senator chuzhov, who was russia's ambassador to the european union for many years, where am i wrong? well, i would like to comment not only on yours, but also on others. participants in today's meeting statements, and firstly, i, uh, would not overestimate, i will start, as it were, chronologically from the very beginning, and the first thesis of ruslan, and i would not

overestimate the capabilities of the european military-industrial complex, but the european military-industrial complex the complex has collapsed several times over the past decades. plus , because the military-industrial complex of any country, including european countries, it relies on the economy of these countries, and most of these countries, at least many including the largest, i mean germany, they are really in a serious economic crisis, as far as ... military-industrial the european complex can increase the production of weapons, especially if the flow of these weapons from the united states to ukraine weakens or even

dries up altogether, this is a big question, because well, as they say, it will never be remembered ursula fonder promised until the end of this year, a million artillery shells, but there won’t be any, now they are already saying that it will be by spring, there by april, or approximately in such a time frame, they do not have such an opportunity, this is the first as for the supply of weapons, yes, most of the types of weapons that have been supplied in the last period... are quite high -tech, weapons that require certain preparation, training, and so on. well, the first attempt to teach

potential f16 pilots something, it's basically... showed that this task is difficult, difficult to accomplish, if only because ukrainian pilots do not know... so all their training now comes down to english lessons, for now. this concerns, as they say, physical things. such possibilities, now, as for the political side, in general, i would not overestimate the monolithic nature of the collective west at the moment, it has never been absolutely monolithic, and in general i have seen this quite often, if not to say all the time, now, yes, in a certain sense

, the ukrainian plot is connecting, the main they have contradictions, they follow other lines, but even the ukrainian story, as we see, was seen during such a market skirmish between the leaders of ukraine and poland, and this is quite symptomatic, let’s see how the future government will behave. considering that slovakia also borders on ukraine, and some districts of transcarpathian ukraine, they have populations historically associated with slovakia or with czechoslovakia of that time, well, i will not delve into the issue of territorial claims here, but nevertheless,

plus to this. between the main european, western european players, the same germany, france, sparks quite regularly, they have a set of contradictions, and it concerns not only ukraine, probably, i will emphasize again, not so much ukraine, ukraine is just something like that, so say, an umbrella that allows the west to call itself monolithic, but it is not, and as the us presidential elections approach, the transatlantic ones, cracks, i am sure, will appear, no matter who wins in the end, because will come the moment of making serious decisions within the framework of the election campaign and then about the interests of europe, european. i think not a single candidate

for us president will have a headache. okay, again convincingly, again i completely agree with you, but i will reveal one more secret regarding why i have slightly different instincts, not only because i lived in america for a long time, but because i consider it part of my job to understand military capabilities russia. secrets, not military plans, but general capabilities, because without it is impossible to speak seriously about the situation that has developed today, and as you know, foreign minister sergei lavrov said recently that, unfortunately, the outcome of what is happening in ukraine, that it will be determined on the battlefield, the battlefield, here

what is a battlefield, so... this is a key question, because if you, uh, consciously decided that the battlefield is limited to ukraine, then this means that they are hitting russia, and you are hitting ukraine in return, and in general, in washington in london, and even in brussels there is no they are very worried, but if the battlefield can be expanded, then this is a completely different situation, if... and they understand in the collective west that russia can decide on their escalation, has the ability to decide, respond with its own escalation, then this is between us, speaking, among other things, and from my point of view the best recipe for negotiations, when i talk with the military, i never try to tell them what to do, they, as you guessed, do not ask me about this, i try to understand, they think are they

on... this topic and do they have specific ideas of what can be done, i can say with confidence, they have ideas, a lot can be done, and i’m talking about people at a very decent level who know what they are talking about, have the opportunity to convey their opinions to the country’s leadership, therefore i believe that in washington , london, and brussels they are playing a very... dangerous game, because they have convinced themselves that if russia has not done something, it means that russia either cannot do it or will not dare. and i don’t know at what point the russian leadership will decide that strategic patience, that it has been demonstrated enough, and now we need to try some other methods, but i have no doubts, in this case i am speaking not as

a person recommending, but as a person observing, i have no doubts that if, they will... will try to go further along the path they are now on, and will believe that ukraine can be given absolutely anything so that it strikes at the kerch bridge, at sevastopol, friends, i don’t want to be a prophet, but then they will run into trouble, they will get into very big trouble, that’s how to explain this to them, without doing it, this is a very difficult question, i don’t have any recipes here, especially when even informal dialogue, as you know, practically does not exist, well, i really i want someone, somehow, somewhere , whom they in washington would be forced to take seriously, to explain this to them, the american

habit on this matter, there are some things in america that i would not be afraid to borrow, there are many things that... americans love at a high level call or even ask for a meeting and warn. if you don’t meet us halfway, we’ll build you such a tarorama that it won’t seem like much, and without specifying, without specifying, in the abstract, but here it’s important not only how to say it at a high level. but here you need to look correctly, speak in the right tone. many years ago, when the soviet union was leading troops into afghanistan, and in washington they tried to understand, well , how could this happen? they asked

the carter administration, why didn’t you warn? yeah, and the answer was, they warned, warned. and at this meeting there was sbigne brzuzinski, who was then carter's national security adviser , and he said nothing, and when it was over, he told two or three of us who were standing next to him, he says, they warned, the secretary of state told marshal shulman, who was an adviser on the soviet union to the secretary of state. to talk seriously with the soviet country , dobrinina did not have the duties of an ambassador, he served as an immortal, who later became, as you know, the minister of foreign affairs and was a very worthy person, and marshal shulman

he was invited to lunch, had a very good conversation with him, if you knew the marshal, he was a very talented, soviet envoy to send to moscow about the seriousness of the american, so i hope

this is a warning. but you understand, in slovakia, as in many other countries of the central european region, in post-socialist times there was quite a situation of internal political fragmentation, a lot of parties, i looked at how many parties participated in the current elections in slovakia, even if... .leave beyond the line those who didn’t score 5%, which is a passing grade, and there are almost a dozen of them, otherwise there are at least a dozen more left.

parties that overcame this barrier, and those who are now called the winners, this is the fitz party, and it came out on top, but it took 23%, whatever the electoral system, it is clear that with such a percentage of votes without coalition , the government cannot be created, which means it has two potential partners, and one is a party, well, i won’t name the names, they may be different in different languages, but the party former prime minister pilligrini, who at one time broke away from the fitzao party, but she did not go far politically and ideologically , so the alliance between them is quite easy to imagine, the third partner is the far-right party, which is united with

fitzao and his supporters, perhaps , one common point is a negative attitude towards assistance to ukraine, but in everything else they ideologically, of course, disagree, let's see, of course, the current government, shimichki, are opponents of this whole combination and they will ensure that this coalition does not take place, then, according to the existing order, the president, who is also from the same party , caputova, she will transfer the mandate to the second party , that is, to the current prime minister szymelka, that is, the globalist, globalists and

globalists, pro-western, about, soviet, pro-nato, pro-ukrainian, and therefore, i think, now it is somewhat premature to finally draw conclusions about how the political situation will develop, and what the course of the new government will be, who it will consist of, it is clear that any coalition means developing a set of compromises on political issues, not only personnel, that goes without saying, usually they start with this, but on political subjects, so let’s see, of course, it is in russia’s interests to see in slovakia, as in any other european country, a government that is not pro-russian, otherwise , which is able and... has the desire to defend national interests and make

independent decisions. thank you, professor korpovich, on the same topic. you know, i would like to add that the current situation in slovakia is, to some extent, reflects a change in mood, which nevertheless, or as some do not believe, is still happening in europe, this is a kind of fatigue from the all-pervasive ukrainization of europe, it certainly tires ordinary people, ordinary people, because after all, people are also tired of watching, so all these cadres agitating, so to speak, to support the struggle for freedom in europe and so on and so forth, are just ordinary people, they want to switch from the topic of ukraine to some of their own, let’s say, problems that concern them to a greater extent, especially since, to put it this way, vladimir alekseevich said that, after all, some changes are also taking place with the economy in europe, and although europe survived last winter quite calmly,

let’s say, gas storage facilities were full and so on, warm, yes, but now the situation is changing somewhat, uh, let’s say, we still haven’t received clarity from the nord stream reports about who actually caused such damage to the gas pipeline, well, there are certain opinions and so on, but nevertheless the issue has not been resolved. that is, gas is now supplied to europe from norway is very expensive, so to speak, also allows norway, as they say, to carry nuts from the fire, liquefied gas comes, again from the united states of america, also very expensive, and this of course affects the general situation in the economy, especially in germany, and lng also comes from russia, and this also affects industry, this affects the level of unemployment, this is reflected in what will happen in europe one way or another, and naturally all this will affect the socio-economic situation in

european countries. when, after all, europeans, they are accustomed to living in comfortable conditions for a long period of time and i think no one will want to deny themselves comfort, so the mood will still swing and some experts predict that, strangely enough , something similar could happen in the netherlands, when forces come to power that absolutely do not want to live in lgbt conditions, in conditions. let's just say, here are some, so to speak, other things that are not very necessary, and they want a simple, normal life. in the united states, there was such a saying that no american politician could ever make a mistake by showing his hatred of communism. so i propose

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there is a big game on the air, i think our conversation shows how complex intricate international problems are, and how important it is to have a serious expert opinion on this matter, and today the next meeting of the valdai club began, a meeting that is held in other conditions, in conditions of war on ukraine, and it is expected that president putin, foreign minister sergei lavrov will speak, well, we must give credit to the organizers that they have a well-developed sense of humor, this is the message they they started releasing their report, let's listen. what the organizers said about their meeting, at least for self-irony, they clearly deserve a prize, let's listen, time is rushing, and we

have reached the next annual meeting of the valdai club, look what is possible, well, i have no doubt, knowing some the author's report that they expect quite a lot from their report. and as i understand, you have read it, you already have the opportunity to share your impressions. yes, you know, the report has, let's start, let's start with this, it has a very intriguing name, a certificate of maturity or an order that did not exist, the name itself, a fantasy, a fantasy about a future without hierarchy, yes, the report is very detailed, quite voluminous, 35 pages, this report nevertheless makes an attempt to analyze, how will the world develop? in the future, look beyond the horizon, try to imagine what the new world order will be built on, what will underlie it, how relations between states will be built, where there will be partnerships, where there will be

some kind of relationship between rivals, so to speak, so the report also, strictly speaking, places some emphasis on the new concept of the foreign policy of the russian federation, which was approved by presidential decree, in march of this year. where it was clearly stated that russia is a state of civilization, has its own principles, approaches, its own values, which are very important to us, and a number of conclusions that are contained in this... they say that it’s okay that the world is diverse, that’s it, that this diversity is the basis for further cooperation between different states, that is, it will help them find a common language and complement each other precisely with their diversity, therefore it is extremely important that the experts who prepared this report also made the following conclusion, that after all, the world must be built on a balance of interests, respect, the interests of all

participants in international communication, i believe that this is indeed a very important conclusion that was made in this report. okay, what does the report say about how the result of the war in ukraine will affect the future world order, you mentioned the balance of interests, this is of course very important, but at least no less important is what the balance of power will be. and this balance of power, at least for some time, will be connected with how the war in ukraine ends, what does this report say? well, look, after all, it is said that the future of the world order will be determined by the degree of interaction and cooperation between russia and the people's republic of china, that is, in essence, we are talking about the fact that representatives of the world majority... as it is now customary to say, will

play an increasingly larger role in determining the foundations and approaches to the new world order, and as mauzun said, there was a saying that after all, the minority must submit to the majority, and i think that this phrase of the chinese leader probably starts to work, it was not only he who said it, you know, i again agree with everything, but i would like to add that submission in this life-or-death struggle, that submission, it does not come automatically and doesn’t come because your cause is just, it comes as a result of the balance of power, and this balance of power is largely, for some period of time , determined by what happens on the battlefield, so it seems to me that in order for

that the process that the authors of the report talk about, and which they consider positive, it seems to me that in order for this process not to turn out to be a fantasy, but for it to have a chance of becoming a world reality, for this it is important that russia under no circumstances suffer defeat in ukraine, and that russia is real, real. demonstrate that, in general, this war will end in its victory, i don’t know if you will agree with me, ruslan, but sergei vittor spoke about this, you will probably find someone who said this before sergei vita, that on over the centuries, russia and the soviet union were considered not exclusively, but primarily because russia was

the leading military power, and every time russia was defeated, or it seemed that russia was defeated, even if there was no real defeat, everyone once, suddenly russia discovered a large number of enemies, as witta said, some former friends turned out to be indifferent, and so on and so on and so on, so i believe that in order for... russia to have effective diplomacy, problems of power , it should be considered a high priority. what is happening, in this regard, ruslan, on the battlefields in ukraine, we talked about what its patrons are doing for ukraine, but as a result, what is happening on the battlefield? you know what's happening on the field now

battle, it is, here is a reflection of several such historical ones, some say apocrypha, some historical anecdotes, when the war in europe ended, but militaristic japan had not yet been defeated, stalin is credited with the reaction when at some negotiations he was told that it is necessary to take into account the interests of the pope and the roman throne, to which josepharenovich threw out the phrase how many divisions he has, but regarding the fact that a just cause is very important, there is another remarkable historical case when... anna of austria with young louis discussing with her generals the war of a powerful coalition against a weakened france , as an argument she tells the generals: but the lord god will not give it. the lord god always helps big battlemen who have big battalions, so vladimirovich lenin did not have the slightest doubts, i

am sure that the cause of the revolution was right, but in order for the just cause to win, he allowed trotsky to create. i just want to confirm your thesis, as they say, you hope that your cause is right, but you don’t it’s bad, if we return to the situation on the ground, then only two elements can be added to our previous analysis , and we already said in the first part of our program that our defense line is not compacted, in some cases we have one and a half, or even two times less troops than the enemy who is attacking us, so at the moment our offensive in the kupinsky and svatovsky direction has stopped, we are treating

the enemy’s near rear with powerful air artillery strikes, destroying several bridges, in the artyomovsk direction from the ukrainians... we are holding a blow in the zaporozhye direction, the so-called rabotinsky pocket, and the rabotinsky ledge, we hit it in two, from the flanks, but the ukrainians are defending themselves quite effectively, so depending on how we look at this situation, this depends on how you see the task, ruslan , if the task were russian defense, ukrainian

offensive, as it seems to me, the ukrainians and we say, then it seems to me that it is obvious that the glass is half full, if the task there was a russian offensive, especially a full-scale one, then one could say that it did not work out, because while such an offensive is even the task, strategically the ukrainians lost this round, maybe this is what is connected with this largely senseless offensive with huge losses from the south of artyomovsk in an attempt to get at least some pieces of land that can be given to their population by western sponsors, if not for victory, then at least for a consolation prize. senator, you were talking about... europe contradictions in europe, to what extent does europe understand that the ukrainian offensive has failed? and what conclusions can be drawn from this? i think that there is no consensus in europe on this matter; there is, well, we are now talking about

political elites, probably to a greater extent than about public opinion. so, in some countries, those governments, those leaders who, as they say, invested in this ukraine project, and more than others, they, of course, will convince their population, and themselves, that everything is not so bad, that it is necessary, as zelsky asks, that means, just add modern weapons, and there are other countries that are wondering, in general, what it costs, firstly, for them, their countries, their economies, and where is the light at the end of this tunnel, and this is

the second category , i think, this is not only the countries bordering ukraine, the countries of central, eastern europe, although the very fact that they are in poland, we talked about slovakia in some other countries, such sentiments are beginning, well, i don’t i’ll say dominate, but they also begin to influence on the internal political situation, because elections are also coming up in poland very soon, so, in general, there is an element of such, so to speak, uncertainty. in the further line it begins to appear, well, plus, we have already talked about germany, by the way, i noticed on our screen: there was a quote from the welt newspaper,

which directly stated that, contrary to forecasts, germany’s gdp is declining by half a percent this quarter , and so, uh, what the further dynamics will be, we’ll see, but i think that there is also, of course, such a psychological factor as the factor of the zelsky. after the well-known monstrous story in canada, i think that his popularity in europe will quickly go down, in general, about the wide, wide sections of the population, frankly speaking, he is already fed up, thank you, senator, we are leaving for advertising, we will return in a couple of minutes.

a legal and actual dual power is emerging in the country; russia is driven into a political impasse. yeltsin himself hesitated for a long time. today your power is dangerous, doubly dangerous without power. however, literally on the eve of the bloody october events, he agreed to re-election. and, one of khazbullav’s deputies. i can’t, well, who can i negotiate with? there will be no more, the coup d'état that is standing must be taken by storm today, under this old one we discovered a secret from where it was possible to exhort in

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children. they won't forgive you if you stay away. serve for the counter. who, there's a big game on the air, now let's talk about ukraine, how can we have a program where we don’t talk about ukraine? professor, yes, uh, the fact is that the image of zelsky , and his impeccability, is suffering a certain defeat, not only for... ukraine, but on the territory of ukraine, we remember that next year there should be presidential elections in ukraine, and naturally, president zelsky has already, as is well known, requested $5 billion for the elections in the united states of america, taking into account the fact that, as we see, the issue with the budget for ukraine has now been resolved, when it was refused, we understand that

something is happening that is hidden from our eyes, that is, zelsky may no longer... correspond to the image that was originally sculpted by the united states of america and the criminal cases that began against the commander of the ukrainian armed forces of zaluzhny, a criminal case was opened against a number of ligarchs, who in turn sponsored zelsky, suggests that zelsky has some uncertainty that the presidential elections next year will be held perfectly calmly, maybe. he feels that the promises that were given to them before, before the previous, at the previous elections, they were absolutely not fulfilled, the ukrainian people, of course, feel that zelsky, who promised to stop the war, completely failed all his promises. do you think that in general, in the current situation, elections in ukraine can

take place honestly and calmly? you know, frankly speaking, in the current situation, for elections to take place in ukraine. honestly calm, i think that this situation is impossible, because in ukraine there is huge corruption, transparency international recognized ukraine in second place in terms of corruption, that is, all these huge financial resources that are directed to ukraine, western experts already say that all this is taken away, in corners, stolen, so nothing ideal happens, and especially in ukraine. thank you. senator, i think that holding any elections in the current conditions in ukraine is an impossible task, no matter how hard anyone tries, and in this regard, i drew attention to the statements of joseppe borel, and the head of the yesovskaya

diplomacy, what was said literally yesterday, as part of his visit to ukraine, was asked to him. question, and he immediately disowned, saying, i’m generally involved in the foreign policy of the european union, and this is an internal matter of ukraine, so i have nothing to do with this, this... after dozens of statements about elections in other countries, including russia, when there were elections in september, there was a statement from the european union regarding elections in new regions, so to say that these are simply double standards is not enough, it is clear that probably sponsors, primarily americans, but also europe, they will think about how to get around the issue of elections in ukraine, this is my personal forecast, but how, in short,

not to hold them, and how to describe it, so to speak, from the point of view view, acceptability, blame it on russia, well, of course, yes, ruslan , you know, it’s very interesting to watch how zelsky and his inner circle are looking for some kind of reference points, let’s say, until good news, yes, that’s it , last week the so-called first military-industrial international forum, where representatives of many countries gathered, and were discussed for a long time, but when you look at the panel discussion, it seems like there should be a technical discussion, but the minister of foreign affairs kuleba is sitting there, that is, what does the minister of foreign affairs have to do, strictly speaking? to putting the defense industry on track , it is impossible to find an answer, but what made me smile most was that a record number of agreements were signed by france, in general in our defense-industrial world by everyone

it is known that the french are people who come last and run away first, and if we talk about the defense industry, it’s not just extremely reluctant to do it, napoleon would not agree with you, i’m talking about business in this case, very cautious people, too, so, the systems are extremely expensive, extremely delicate and extremely difficult to absorb french technology, everyone who once bought something from the french, ask the same indians, yes, ask those who are operators of french aircraft, this is a headache, i not to mention that the french, many of you, had the opportunity to communicate with these people , they in every possible way demonstrate to everyone else that they are a first-class nation, all other people are second-class nations, ukrainians, france is the only nuclear power in europe, yes. so, considering that, uh, ukrainians, at least the political elite , also now have a great opinion of themselves, i can roughly imagine how these two prideful people

, in an attempt to build - at least something, will try to create, i no longer i’m saying that france has an extremely limited number of just financial resources in order to support their enterprises, therefore, other than profanation, or at least pre-election pr, i can’t call these statements anything else, as you think, now... the thaw is coming, then the frost, uh, but ukraine says that they can still go on a new offensive, having received new equipment, when they are told, what you say, what they call it, human resources are draining, and they say: yeah, but we are cunning, we have learned a lot , we will infiltrate in small groups. well now everyone is infiltrating in small groups, given that this exclusion zone, yes , it is several kilometers long, it is constantly monitored by unmanned aerial vehicles, and not only

by those that conduct surveillance, but also by those