[000:00:00;00] like this is the best gift, he’s a little childish, he’s still a child, he has a collection of tanks, and yes, then we came to these tanks, and you said insult, that is, you seemed to think about what happened it’s important that i should have been happy with this comic, but i wasn’t happy, because i don’t like them, i admitted it honestly and openly, yeah, but, in fact, the relationship started, i have a boyfriend, well, i’m happy, everything’s fine , and they told me for many years before this. that i am without special therapy i won’t get pregnant, my provoctin level was off the charts, so i actually immediately said that there is a risk, a small risk, but if there is one, are you ready for something? yes, i want a family, yes, i’m ready, i love children , uh, in general, everything would be great if it suddenly happens, yes, good, i’m basically ready for this too, i got pregnant, i got pregnant,

and he.. i was happy, i jumped to the ceiling when i found out about it, i felt a slight tension, because what should i do now, and i was planning to look for a new job, but here plans change, the first fear arises, how will i cope with this, terrible toxicosis begins, he leaves cookies and water there in the morning so that i can somehow cope, i’m going through pregnancy, during pregnancy we have a lot of family events, things happen at my grandmother’s ... stroke, she needs to go to another country , and i’m going there to sell her apartment in order to transfer her to moscow, to the apartment that my mother and i bought, and accordingly i meant that i would live with my grandmother , but did not mean that i would go into a relationship and also to get pregnant and plan something further, that is, this is the top of my mother’s pyramid , her plan that was for me, my mother decided, and i give birth to a child, go on maternity leave, my financial

situation worsens sharply, because i worked out twice more, he was an engineer for her, my mother’s financial involvement begins, psychosis begins on both sides, i develop hives, angeloedema daily, that is, i simply could not breathe, every morning you wake up, everything is congested on both sides of you from you and your mother or you and your husband, i was already confused in this triangle, my husband’s hands hurt, my husband’s hands constantly hurt , i understand that something is wrong, i continue family therapy, i say, something wrong is happening here, because again i’m asking there improve our situation, decide, because i’m in a vulnerable state, oh, and he says that he’s on good legs, and he can’t do anything, i don’t know how to do anything, i say how you can’t , you’re a master, you’re you can do everything, now we’ll do it, what can we do to help you, i don’t know how to write a resume, okay, i

’m starting to give, i’m writing a resume, i’m looking for him a job where he will earn more, in family therapy you begin to promote him, yes, i begin to promote him, we go into family therapy, and they say that he has no problems, he is happy with everything, you are comfortable, you need break off this relationship, i say, no, i won’t give up that easily, i don’t want to repeat the family scenario, i don’t want to be a divorcee, no, no, no, no, no, no, that’s it, no, that’s it, goodbye, no need i don’t need psychologists, i can handle it myself, i... with literature, i have attachment theory there i’m studying, because i also need to somehow, as they say, understand how it works, while i’m burning out, slowly but surely, i feel like my life is becoming a swamp, i’m alone with the child all day long, my husband is working, getting ahead regarding his career, he has correspondence there, charm, hello with emoticons, that’s also good, my mother is also

moving there, she accordingly... also has more important things to do, everyone is okay, but i, i can’t cope, i feel bad , i fall into some kind of depression, and before that, accordingly, before the depression there was a peak moment, even before the start of his promotion, when he just whined about the fact that he couldn’t cope, he couldn’t do anything, he couldn’t do anything, and his family didn’t participate in any way, but at the same time he played a game with his mother , running away, that is, mom... anxious, mom writes to him there, he does it on purpose, he sees this and he doesn’t answer, i was good, i sent photos, i tried to write, keep in touch, because well, it’s impossible, but they don’t come to their grandson, the distance is half an hour, they don’t come to their grandson, they don’t participate in any way, at one point i was boiling, i also said that how can you do it, you help your daughter, he was kicked out, naked, abandoned, my mother is also a cop , why should i

help you financially, why? in the middle of the night, when the child has a fever, you call me, send me money, because we don’t have money for a taxi to go to morozovskaya there, why not him, but he didn’t need it, and i see his parallel. he sits on the toilet for hours, he plays games on his phone, he comments on articles and this is completely different personality, i read these comments, this is a different person , this is a cool teenager, this is something that teaches everyone to live there, it’s good what’s wrong with you now, let’s go back to today, what ’s happening to you now, now i’m already a mother two children, so from him, from him. and you are divorcing him? yes, i gave birth to my second child, then i began to re-aware that i no longer wanted this, i began to work, get back on my feet, i returned to my profession, at first i worked like a man possessed, because

it was just such an unstoppable fountain of, what was locked in me, i turned out to be in demand, someone needed me, there were several ways out of this relationship , the first time i drove him away, he went to live with a friend, played tanks, because at that time he had already been playing tanks for a year are these tanks of rocks still worth the money? did you return it later? yes, he burst into tears, said that he was homeless and he was done with his life, yeah, you brought him back , then there was one more moment, as i understand it, there was another moment, you said several moments of separation, last year, and when i realized that i needed to leave and figure it out with myself, i can’t yet make a decision about the breakup, i left for tashkent, yeah, and with two children, alone, i wanted to leave with my family, i asked him, i begged him, with the last money, because he quit anywhere, he didn’t worked, sat at my house, played and realized that he would no longer work for his uncle, but as a husband

for an hour he began to earn some pennies and periodically and every time for these pennies i also called and screamed, i’m able to hanging with two children, the money came, you returned it next time again, so i came back, i... got into this relationship again, yeah, now what’s happening, i drove him away again, but i’m interested in something else , yes, i sat, it seems to me, i’ve never been silent for so long in my life, listening to you , i just watched myself from the point of view of what was happening inside me, and i would sit just like that, listen, i sit and think, what kind of state do i have when you speak and the way you speak, and this... not doing anything, that is, i don’t want to do anything next to you, not in the sense that you discourage the desire, in the sense that it’s not, but you you arrange everything so interestingly that i sit right there and think, if only i could sit straight and listen , it’s the same as going to a movie or

a good production in the theater, i think it’s interesting, it’s like you came, well, how to ask for some help, yes, but at the same time you have absolutely completely deprived me of the intention to at least somehow... help you, because you talk about your drama so beautifully that you don’t want to spoil it, you just paint it like zhulev’s tray here and there pattern and pattern there, and such backs, and such backs, i i sit and think, what a delight, all the clients were like you, you just came like that, yes, but at the same time you hold attention, you hold attention phenomenally, that is, you directly hold this attention, i don’t fall asleep, but at the same time. .. these are the intentions of this very one, or there are intentions of desire to somehow say, well, ask some question, i look at tanya like this, she asks a question, i think that a person is interfering, sit and listen, you can you imagine the state you

put me in? well, i won’t speak for tanya, introduced me, i am an experienced person, how do you think you did it, i don’t know , the truth is that i toil in this circle, i understand that i can assign tasks to myself, cope with them myself and be like that i don’t want to become a victim in all of this, and i don’t want to be a hero in all of this, why do you need us, why do you need people at all , why do you need people , why do you need husbands at all, i don’t know men, why are you, who are you , self-sufficient, you have everything like that it ’s good inside, you’re sure to explain everything inside, i want to go outside, you want to go outside, then it’s already at least a little reality begins in this sense because you know , imagine you are such a cat mayun and the cat mayun understand, right? this is a character, mythological, slavic, and his name is not bayun, but mayu, not bayun, but mayun, no, there is mayun, then there are different things, mayun is the one who creates

this illusion, may, this so to speak, the commonality of indo-european languages, including sanskrit with russian, and from the word may, which is an illusion, in general, we actually have it in the russian language too, and such a word from this is the word maygo, the word may there, and so on, so look, what’s it like here? because well, you have formed a certain image of this man, he has made it clear to you many times ... that he is not the man you need, but every time you managed to convince yourself that now everything will be, now we will do everything , here i would ask the question, is he definitely not the man that is needed, perhaps he is just the one that is needed, but not the one that is expected, maybe, yes, there is a point here, about expectations, talk with your mouth, then there is, i initially talk about what i love there are holidays, gifts are important to me, i want a snowflake there in honor of my son’s birthday in winter, i like sudden flowers, i

love flowers very much, but you don’t even give me the opportunity to insert a word and there can’t be any action there, you’re on your own you do everything, what kind of flowers, you also need to find a space where these flowers are, i tolerate it, but you seem to be talking, but at the same time, if you live the same way as you communicate with us now, and i’m sure that in general, that’s how it is, i don’t want to spoil anything, but that’s how you are well done, what i don’t want. spoils nothing, this is the podcast triggers with you its leading psychologist tatyana krasnovskaya psychotherapist sergei nasebyan and we are listening to oksana’s story, you said a very important thing at the beginning of our conversation, when you voiced your request, how you lost yourself in a relationship, yes, so you very clearly cut off two situations in your life, where you were before these delphic oracles and after. yes, when you entered into a relationship, mm, i didn’t sleep

so that you understand, i listened to you, the metaphor of this very illusoryness began for me originate exactly when you said that it was in delphi, because there are delphi, delphi in general are somehow connected with a certain mysticism, and mysticism is connected with deception, and in general, you deceived yourself very well there in this sense, you have entered this circle of self-deception, i will call it that, i don’t want to hurt your feelings. and so, accordingly, you have been giving birth to children for 8 years there, doing something there, trying to somehow improve the lives of other people, promoting everyone, where is it, everyone movement, that i have no doubt, you can ride on your energy for a long time, so you said i lost myself, i have a question for you, until the age of 24 you were with yourself, mostly with yourself, a smaller part probably with your mother, who

... well, here’s my mother’s child, but i resisted a lot, i was uncomfortable, i would have been somehow myself, but that one you, as it were, well, how to say, consciously carried out these like my mother’s, pyramidal, pyramidal, mother’s tasks, so mami yes, well, it turned out that you had to obey, because in in any case, where i started the confrontation , i was bad, naturally, i’m bad, regarding the fact that, well, i even had a very sharp reaction to me. i don’t like to cram, i like to read, understand and retell in my own words, i can’t be a repeater there, i can’t be there, i want to build my own, yeah, okay, that is, you had parts with yourself, what part of yourself have you lost in these relationships, or what kind of myself, spontaneous, but emotional, because i’m like a frozen person

with a concrete slab on top, i can’t move in all this, i can’t feel anything, i can’t be, and i can’t manifest myself, or i, for example, during our first separation in a relationship, i started dancing in the kitchen, when i cook, listening to music and dancing , why haven’t i done this for many years, since the birth of my child there, i didn’t listen to music, i didn’t dance, so i...’ i started dancing, we got back into a relationship, i invite a person, well, why not, as they say, dance together, well, somehow, as best you can, it doesn’t matter, but to show up, yeah, but the person prefers just stand around looking, so funny, as if every time you are surprised when you meet your husband , you seem to wonder every time why this man has no initiative, what is happening to him, why he does not show any intention, as sergei says, why there is no impulse , but you chose such a man, so i... asked you at the very beginning, as you explained to yourself, that

in general you built the relationship, you took him, and then you built a relationship with him, he was just like such a cotton doll, but this my feeling now is that even if you don’t break up, don’t go out, go through these internal sufferings that now happen to me on a regular basis, when i sit and cry for days, and come back to move again and why are you crying? a broken dream that i will not be from the amazon tribe, like my mother and grandmother, who were getting divorced, that i can, i can build a family, i can raise. children, that it will be whole, that it will be alive, and this is the first moment, the second moment, that i could not help man, i couldn’t see him, no matter how hard i tried, when we had conflicts, even i screamed that i’m not your mother, i don’t want

to raise you, i don’t want to change you, please hear, see me, here i am like this, he said, i'm afraid of you, i'm afraid of you. can i voice my hypothesis? come on, my hypothesis is this, it seems to me that your experiences are actually connected and not with your husband, with the fact that you cannot escape from your mother, in fact, this has nothing to do with your husband, everything is predictable with your husband, you took it, i'm sorry that i'm talking about your husband like that, there is no disrespect there, but you took a lack of initiative person who is just ready to be convenient, and you move on with him, and you try to build some kind of relationship with him, but in fact the experience... is of a completely different plane, now this concrete slab - this is your mother, this is your relationship with your mother, and not with your husband, and the feelings of tears about the fact that you still can’t break free, you still can’t separate your independence, show it, and here it’s just this figure moms

you join again, this is you of course, it’s very frightening, yes, but at the same time, the deception lies precisely in the fact that this is not your fucking dream, yes, if you, as you say, dream of having a relationship, a family, there, as if it were some kind of strong there and so on , yes, this is not your dream, then i think that a key betrayal occurs, from which it is very difficult to get out, because you betrayed yourself a little earlier , because if , for example, you want to be happy next to a man, then you still have everything ahead, as it were there is no question here at all, you are 30 years old. that they turned around, got divorced, moved on, but in general, even with this man you can still be happy, you can probably be happy with this man, but happy, no matter how there is no question and you could be happy there and so on, but this form, as it were, becomes more important than the content for you, because pay attention to the fact that

, for example, when your mother asks you why you are calling me, and not he, for example, calls his mother, well, how i wish i could call because my husband is not... mine, suppose yes, where from, what kind of question is this, what is this question, why is she asking you this question, she initially saw that this relationship was dead, as she thinks, at least , well, yes, the last one was when i said that i had been checking all day, he said, why are you still crying, such, you know, severe devaluation that you cry, well, go ahead, humiliate yourself, call him back, what’s good? lived yes, the house is dirty, don’t care, he wanted everyone, he fed the children chips, what’s good for you in this was? no, why are you crying, mom, well, actually, i loved you, the next day i ask, what do you expect from me, well, that you will now begin to conquer the peaks, that you will now go

there, you will move, and so on, i forgot how to do this, i could do this when i fulfilled the plan to the maximum, yes, when i needed to get out of the relationship that i would have had in tashkent, leave all my friends that i had made, move here, start working here and study at the institute , that is, i worked a full eight-hour day, i studied evening at the institute, i slept for 4 hours, 4, 5 hours every day, i lived in a one-room apartment, their ooze, sleeping on the kitchen sofa, then a year later i moved into a rented apartment, i went through all this meat grinding, then i i could get out of this, move through the pain, but now i can’t through the pain. i don’t want to conquer again at such a price , but that’s the point, you don’t need to do anything, here you don’t need to conquer anything, because finding yourself means, in general, coming to yourself, and here it’s very it's important to see where you are get away from yourself, just learn to answer this question for yourself, and your body

will help you in this sense, yes, which tells you with psychosomatics, some kind of clamps, i don’t know, nausea, toxicosis, everything... to believe to your reactions, you know, when you are told from childhood that something is wrong with you, you think that your intuition is deceiving you, your body is deceiving you, you can’t believe anything at all, and strangely enough, you don’t believe anything, but at the same time you allow yourself to be deceived, but that’s the point, because you live in this a fairy tale in which everything is absolutely not real. the only time, probably, when you felt real, well, the only one or not, but the most vivid one that you described was right there in delphi, where you felt that yes, i had escaped from one, but had not yet entered another , and then you are strong. they made a huge circle on the train and returned to the point where you were in this connection with your mother, oksana, remind me what your request sounded like at

the beginning of the program, losing yourself in a relationship, yeah, having gone through a relationship, yes, i lost myself, i have an assumption that it would be correct to reformulate it, but i lost myself in the relationship with my mother, it seemed to me that with my husband, having distributed, here the husband, you see, he simply performed a certain functionality, as if you put him in charge, said, so, now i’m building a relationship with you so as not to build a relationship with my mother, exactly, he has become a mother-substitute, so in this sense, this is the podcast triggers with you, its host is tatyana krasnovskaya and sergey nasibyan, our guest is oksana, i don’t know, will you return to your hypothesis with a question, tatyana, because i i just want to go back to the moment when you asked the question, as you explained it to yourself uninitiatively, come back, please, you

took it off your tongue, i have a question, but i would have asked the question a little differently, and i want to draw your attention to this, as i promised at the beginning of the program that i would return to this , you responded very easily to tanya’s question, as you explained it to yourself there, not initiative, but we call it, now it is, now we know about it, before that you described just stirlets should come simply simply. to the music of these moments of spring, and you responded very easily and began to explain accordingly, and with such joy, you know, sat down on such a psychological defense, which is called rationalization, yes, one of my favorites, of course, i understood this then, i need to explain everything to myself, then i i understand, why i asked the question, why it is necessary to explain, i would still ask the question, what did you feel when a man does not answer, when a man does not insist, when a man does not take... the first steps, what did you feel at that moment, what do you want did you have to rationalize it? anxiety, what were you worried about?

and so something itself is wrong, and they don’t choose me, they don’t choose me, yes, so he never chose you, and i’m afraid that mom is also not indicative in this regard, because mom seems to only choose you then, when everything is fine with you, yes, and you are real, there you are weak, there you are stupid, there you are and sometimes without a goal. while it sounds like a dream woman and you are such a dream woman, a dream man, you are a dream friend, well, you are wonderful, this is wonderful, only for you i’m very lonely there inside, yes, because behind all this beautiful spacesuit, i see a tuna, very small girl who can’t cope with what’s outside, and as if you haven’t been in a real relationship yet, you’ve already

mother of two children, but as if you have never been in a real relationship, you need to get out of there, recognizing absolutely all the qualities in yourself, all the flaws that are inherent in other people, recognizing, accepting, but moving on, without creating illusions , your task now is to find a way to get out of this cool spacesuit daughter, cool mom, cool wife, cool friend, cool woman , cool teacher, cool employee, well, you just need to get out of this spacesuit and really feel the pain that you have been avoiding for so many years, and you may not choose, but yes, there is of course, there is such a risk that they may not choose, but otherwise, those who do not choose themselves, yes, but otherwise you seem to be married to yourself, and everywhere you seem to be in a relationship with yourself, there is no other person there, you do not allow for such a possibility face this reality, you make so much... such a cushion between you and other people, it is closed very much by actions, activity , this contribution, giving, as you

call it, support, promotion, all this, in order not to collide, not show your real self, i noticed this in myself, that it’s easier to mold such a golem , here, yes, because i’m not sure that i can handle it, because i’m not sure that i can be there for you. joyful, happy, happy with everything, here it is, here is a simulacrum, here you go, i have it the assumption that you don’t actually build such close relationships with children, but replace it all with this activity, i break through, i break through in this, namely because of the children, when i understand that my first point is this not to inflict psychological injuries, i realized that without inflicting psychologically... i inflict them by the fact that i begin to stuff the child there with knowledge, i begin to force the child there, more precisely, turning

the child into a perfectionist, of course, without inflicting you inflict at least by your absence because you are not alive, stop the race, oksan, really, try not to avoid the pain, find your own way to experience the pain, where the real loneliness is, where it really hurts from not being taken away, and in general, in principle, get to know yourself, you know, then you will begin just get acquainted, otherwise the creation of this shell, this tool, you will pass on, and your children will have it more refined. don’t pass this baton, can i ask you what was most important for you today, what you endured, living through pain, growing through pain, i really really don’t want to, and what i’m faced with now , when the relationship ended with me constantly asking, constantly being in

the position of a beggar, the fact that the family has debts, the fact that the financial situation is difficult, yes, i work, but it’s still not enough for a family of two children and two adults, but then she offered to just live separately , the man decided to leave now, it seems that the very beginning is just now, and he disappeared, lived in a change house, somewhere on a construction site , and i called and said how is this possible, then tell me you give up the kids, you give up everything, i miss you too, i filed for divorce, it’s sad. but i expected this from you, i can’t resist your decisions , i can’t do anything, i don’t feel like i can change anything, wait, seriously, i don’t care about me so much, i feel like i i’m probably making a mistake , i’m destroying something that you and i seem to know about, he’s a great indicator for you of how you should choose yourself, so it seems to me that he’s great in this sense to show, so yes, he’s like that

conveniently, you watched the podcast triggers with its leading psychologist, psychotherapist, tatyana krasnovskaya, psychologist and psychotherapist sergei nasibyan, you can watch all projects of the podcast lab on the website of the first channel 1tv.ru. hello, i'm dmitry bak and i 'm a literary guy here. under the title, let them not speak, let them read, we are talking about different topics, about different writers, about classics, or from those who are close to us, but today we are talking about an author who, on the one hand, has passed away quite a long time ago , with another on the other hand, he is with us, he is nearby, this is sergei sanovich yesenin, and a very popular poet

, many say that he is a national poet, his anniversary was not celebrated this year, earlier, this year we just remember aesenin every time with a special feeling in early autumn, when he was born, today we are visiting the general director of the museum of the reserve sergei sanovich yeseninan, boris igorevich joganson, hello, hello, and today we are also visiting andrei veshkurtsev, an actor of the moscow artistic, academic theater named after maxim gurkov. hello, in a sensational play called yesenin’s woman, we will talk about yeseninen from the point of view of museum exhibitions, from the point of view of the modern reader, let’s start, boris, i’ll ask you a very simple thing, what does sergei yesenin take us with today, exactly , what is the main thing in it, do you think, the main thing is that the great russian poet, sergei

aleksandrovich yesenin is understandable and close to broad. circle of readers, those who appreciate his appeal to nature, but also those which provide food for a strictly scientific mindset. pushkin, uh, lerman, the greatest tyutchev, the greatest poets, but what if i say that you can’t sing them right away, if i asked you now, completely improvisationally, let’s sing two lines, there are moep’s klyenty, we can , come on, clients. my fallen bank is icy, that you are standing bent over under a white snowstorm , well, the experiment was a success, we even sang four, it was difficult to stop, but no offense to pushkin or lermontov, well, not right away, somehow i’m not going out on the road,

or i remember a wonderful moment, beautiful romances. i understand what you are talking about dmitry, the point here is probably that there are two definitions, a poet from the people, this is very important, yes, the people. and the people’s poet, among the people’s poets we can certainly include alexandrovichan, probably vladimir semenovich, mikhailovich, lermonov, sergei alexandrovich yeseninan, and i probably wouldn’t risk expanding this list very much, despite the fact that lord, my god, how our wonderful homeland is rich in... brilliant talents, derzhavin, and lomanosov through the entire golden

bloc of the age of russian poetry, through the silver age, through the sixties to our wonderful contemporary people, so we can say that sergei aleksandrovich yesenin is certainly a poet from the people, but who has definitely become a people's poet, so let's turn to the photographs and yet this photograph, i think that you boris, will be able to comment on it, moreover, this is a group photograph of young residents of the village of konstantinovo, we see young sergei alexandrovich in kep in the middle, he is for this in order to get on par with the girl he liked, he climbed onto a bucket or some other supply, how do you know, is this a legend or in fact, well, we figured it out after all. we take this kind of facts seriously, the girl is noble, of course, a beauty, that’s all, against the backdrop of the church of the kazan icon of the mother of god, on the right is the estate

of the parents of sergei alexandrovich yesenin, where he was born and where he spent his childhood years, where he came later in youth, when he studied at the spasklepikovskaya second-grade teacher’s room school, and when he left konstantinov for moscow. well, just in the next photo, the kek school is its students, yes, i understand correctly, yes absolutely correctly, yesenin is standing third in the last row , he was such a serious young man, he had a lot of friends, with some he was in such highly artistic and highly moral correspondence, shared his poems, experiences, so i look at this man, in the top row, third from the right and involuntarily turned my gaze to veshkurtsevo, many say that andrey, you as if you were perceived as yesenin, did you look at these photographs, when yes, of course, i looked to get the role, i

naturally did not transform myself, in no way did i try to somehow trick myself, probably someone saw it by chance, i still think that the most important thing when they give a role is for the gut, for the abilities, for the talent, but the most interesting thing is that personally it seems to me that i become like yesenin exactly when the moment of the game occurs, this is wonderful, well here's boris, i'm turning to you again, how much literacy is on tour, when sergei sanovich was still very young, it was widespread, in the ryazan province, in particular in the village of konstantinov, things were approximately the same as in all more or less large... central parts of the russian empire. the zemstvo school in konstantinovo operated since 1879 and they taught arithmetic there, basic basics

, russian language, calligraphy, the law of god, several other subjects were studied there, as a rule , children, they studied in different ways, also adults. what percentage, well, roughly, every second, as a rule, well, probably 90, but already, yes, yes, after the second or third grade the percentage became smaller, yesenin graduated from the zemstvo school very well, but he stayed for the second year, he stayed for the second year because of his behavior, and even then he was, well, probably not yet a hooligan , not a brawler, what kind of guy he was, that’s the kind of guy he was, it’s all clear, let’s remind our interlocutors that zemstvo schools are a relatively recent... innovation in russia, yes, this is a reform already in the seventies of the 21st century, that is well, relatively shortly before the birth of sergei sanovich, that is, this after all, something that was perceived as new, positive, yes,