[000:00:00;00] attracted to each other, he, well, as they say, asks for her, and thought about her, and is ready to do anything to get this secret, and she reached out to this request, you can make up the happiness of my whole life, but it will be nothing for you cost, i swear to you, it was a joke, a cold and calculating german, that’s how he was in pushkin, but in the play he is closer to the hero from... he can’t do anything more, because it’s only for the sake of meeting the countess that german is trying to seduce her pupil lizaveta . look at me, dear creature, when the roles are still you come up with something to justify, what’s beautiful , i like that he’s still elizabeth , but he really fell in love with her, according to the letters they could, there were

incredible passions there. your insolence horrifies me, i wanted to touch pushkin, the original source, but this is a story, this is not a play, there are fragments of pushkin’s text, they are magnificent, but there is also something that is conveyed as the author’s speech, it was necessary to make monologues or dialogues out of this , but i wanted to be exactly in this... channel, in the channel of this work, and not write some kind of modern variation. to immerse the audience in the pushkin era, the stage recreated the atmosphere of st. petersburg of the 19th century, with its music, dances, gentlemen in camisoles and ladies in chic outfits. by the way, it was on the costumes that, even before the premiere, the curse of the queen of spades fell; it was not for nothing that theaters were afraid to compose this work. we had a run-through

for the audience, so i burned mine. suit, my most important suit, a smart military one, here’s a camisole, i burned it in the lighting fixtures, even now there’s still a part left that we haven’t had time to replace it yet, since the frock coat is fastened, it’s not visible, but for any curse there are magicians , the craftsmen from the costume shop have already managed to restore the frock coat, although it seemed that it would be easier to sew a new one, for example, this is a flank, this is this this part of the back, if you apply it, there you go. there was something like this, plus there was, here everything is also married, the performance is a way to look into ourselves and ask whether we should expect an ideal situation from fate, for which we are ready to risk everything, and maybe the main thing

the trump card is still love, hot ice the fourth stage of the russian grand prix in figure skating has started in kazan, for the first time this season on her home ice, olympic champion kamilla valieva, she took the lead after the short program. sofia muravyova is second, alina garbacheva is in third place. the struggle of our graces, as expected, was especially bright, spectacular and unpredictable. for men , the current national champion evgeniy semenenko is in the lead. in pair skating, the best result was achieved by anastasia mishina and alexander galyamov. tomorrow is the free program. do not miss the broadcast on the first at 16:20 all rentals on

our website 1tv.ru. hello, this is the podcast schrödinger's cat and i am its host grigory tarasevich, editor-in-chief of the popular science magazine schrödinger's cat. and we simply talk about complex scientific things, on the other hand, we talk scientifically about very simple things. and today we will talk about such a seemingly simple thing as plastic, it is everywhere, in furniture, in bags, in packages. everywhere, but is it safe, is it good or on the contrary, is it so scary, we have two guests, one guest is the artist yulia che , hello, yulia, the other guest is the crane academy, alexey romovich khakhlov, head of the department at moscow state university, a scientist who works, among other things, with polymers and knows well about plastic from the inside at the molecular level. hello,

hello. and my first question is a little philosophical: is plastic good or bad? here is alexey ramonovich, plastic , of course, is good, the polymer industry has begun. approximately 100 years ago, during these 100 years surrounding us objects, they have changed beyond recognition, if before it was all mostly wood, some kind of metals and so on, now almost most of the objects that surround us are made of polymer, plastic or rubber, well, in general this is also a polymer product, and of course, modern life cannot be imagined without plastic products, so this is... good , but there is a threat from plastic, there is a threat, because the threat is connected with the fact that

industry has developed so quickly over these 100 years , polymer that arise and appropriate waste, plastic, ordinary polyethylene, polypropylene, these are ordinary plastics, they decompose very slowly , so there are really garbage ones, even islands in the ocean, which... many people talk about, and this is a really big problem, because pollution occurs in including pollution of the aquatic environment, and of course, this is a problem in this sense, and it needs to be addressed. before i ask yulia’s question , i want to draw your attention to these art objects that you probably see on the screen now, they were created by yuliche and created made of plastic, which we, alas, are accustomed to throwing away. yulia, you create your works from plastic, how do you feel about plastic, it doesn’t seem somehow hostile, lifeless to you, of course, i adore plastic, it’s my favorite material,

i adore it, it’s under my control, and for the last 6 years it’s been me i give priority to working with plastic, in fact, since 2013 i have been closely involved in design based on the principle of reusing old things, but initially it was old jewelry, old clothes, even dishes that had already come out of use. building, i created clothes, accessories, art objects from these things, and one day, accordingly, a photographer friend of mine , who is not indifferent to the problem of ecology, asked me: julia, would you like to make clothes and hats from plastic, from used, exactly from garbage, from garbage, yes, it’s just that this word garbage

is a little scary for me, so i prefer non-woven plastic, she says: and we can subsequently organize a filming on the topic of ecology, so that the viewer will pay attention to the problem of sorting specifically plastic here i thought and decided, why not , since then, of course, i made clothes and accessories, we did more than one shoot, and in the process i realized, yes, this is such an interesting material that it is within my control, it’s just me now i get great pleasure, for me even my friends are already interested, friends, girlfriends, some acquaintances are already collecting plastic, and as they accumulate they pass it on to me. now i have a question for both of you, look, while i was walking, i found several plastic bags in my pocket, yeah,

those classic plastic bags, probably yes, the industry produces millions, billions of them, well, i’ll put something in them, maybe i ’ll buy something, put it in it or use it for garbage, but what kind... they have what will happen next, here is alexey ramovich, what will happen to him with this bag? most likely, this bag will eventually end up in a landfill, what should the landfill do with it, nothing, it needs to be buried in the ground, so to speak, and it will gradually decompose, in principle, despite the fact that the decomposition time is very large, but nevertheless, it is there, it is, of course, well, it will gradually become crushed. it becomes, the particles of polyethylene from which this bag is made are becoming smaller and smaller, some of these particles will be washed out into rivers then into the ocean by underground waters, this is really so, and

how many years will it take, these are hundreds of years, hundreds of years, then that is, we have not yet realized, that is , since the polymer industry began to develop 100 years ago, we still, so to speak, here... the headquarters full of problems have not yet realized, that is, in 500 years this bag will end up in the pacific ocean, well, one piece at a time, yes, yes, yes, particles from this bag, some will end up, well, in the pacific ocean, well, in some ocean, well, gradually it will creep across all the oceans, after all, it can be recycled somehow , recycle it in order to reuse it, well, polyethylene does not lend itself very well to such recycling, but let’s say polytyl-teriftolate, from which plastic bottles are made, this is quite recyclable, well, it can be

recycled up to ten times. that's why even in in moscow there are special containers where these bottles can be put, polyethylene can be recycled, and there is no problem if i am carrying a bottle, or i need to tear off the label , wash it off the glue, well, it is advisable, so to speak, to remove the cap, because the cap is made of polyethylene, otherwise these are different substances, and that is why the bottles are collected separately, skinned separately, but it is done there, even if you just... throw it away and it will already be done at the factory where they produce secondary polylentorephtholate, and this is a valuable raw material , because polytile can be recycled many times, in general, polymer is a valuable energy raw material, among other things, so there are incineration plants that produce electricity by burning plastic waste, and now there are catalysts that, well, practically... leads to the fact that the environment is not polluted

, that is, in reality, look, the situation is such, the life cycle of a polymer material, any such that it will ultimately end up either in a landfill, or it will end up in a waste incinerator factory, or, unfortunately, as is done in many countries, just a truck will unload all... garbage into the ocean, instead of bringing it into the landfill, it is because of this that such huge garbage islands arise in ocean, this whole recycling, waste sorting, it can only delay a little, and then in a limited quantity, so to speak, the moment when the polymer ends up either in a landfill, or in an incinerator, or in the ocean, that is, if i throw it in there won't be a fire

very good, because there is a lot of harmful emissions even from a small bag, yes, of course, of course, this must be done at a special waste incineration plant, where there are special catalysts, and now waste factories in russia allow you to burn this bag, get energy and not pollute the air? yes, of course, well, we purchased, uh, quite a lot of waste plants in europe, in fact, there are places next to waste plants, housing, it’s more expensive because electricity is cheaper. is supplied by burning garbage, this energy is supplied surrounding houses, then until recently, say, the scandinavian countries simply bought plastic waste from russia, even there, yes, so, in principle, well, we have built waste incineration plants that work quite well and do not throw anything into the air, well, they throw it away, but only a minimal amount. how dangerous is this, not dangerous, no, well, i’m telling you, here in

the center of vienna there is a waste incineration plant, well, no one is protesting, julia, now i have a question for you, look, an ordinary white one package, i’ll rustle a little so that the audience and listeners can feel, this is the familiar sound, this is it for you as an artist, it inspires us, of course, it inspires, i can’t. immediately that i see a package in your hands, i know what i will make of it, no, my principle is completely different, i have several containers at home, where i sort, for example, one container means bottles, the second containers are bags and the third container is toys, and when i have a moment, let’s say inspiration, i want to make something out of that what i have accumulated, i was laying out these things before

i’m already looking at the bag with what it will be beautifully combined with some kind of bottle, yellow, blue , black, golden, then i don’t even know what i’ll have in the process. it’s like collaging, i already have some kind of silhouette of some object , in fact, all i need is this and it comes in handy , the package itself is not a symbol, rather in some context, yes, yes, more like this, i was just returning home and thinking, reflecting about life, what's not speak, and life is wiser than all of us. living and wise, hello, you love me, and since you love me, you must listen to me, you will listen, yes, temperamental people live in this house, look, oh, shadow theater, well, at least he thought about his father, and you think about him, the person needs to be intimidated or demoted, yeah, this night

will end in the police, i feel it, good evening, son, how? dad, blood, i told you what’s wrong, nina, great joy, listen, brother, where have you been, i can’t look at you, i just want to cry, you won’t be with me to stand on ceremony about this, you don’t need me, rubbish, get out, well, in general, i’m glad that i came to you, but i don’t want to be your brother anymore, you are some wonderful people, eldest son, tomorrow, on first, it was golden time, he’s holding nona’s hand, and with his eyes he ’s just like me, the alarm clock is ringing, no, there’s

no use for the alarm clock. wait, what are you doing, why? sing the star, season premiere, tomorrow on the first, you are watching the schrödinger's cat podcast, and today we are talking about plastic, everything seems fine, you can get energy, which is always in short supply, can be recycled and such beautiful art objects can be created. why are people so concerned about plastic, i read somewhere that they are even going to ban plastic bags , they have even banned plastic toys somewhere, in general the fight is worse than they are starting with global warming, there really is a problem, well, as for burning garbage - this is

so to speak, well, a small share, after all , the bulk of the garbage ends up in a landfill, but why a small share, if it is not so harmful and beneficial, why be it? still expensive, catalysts are expensive, and so on, not so, and the factories themselves are expensive , few countries can afford it, so to speak, well-equipped landfills, but everyone can afford it, but nevertheless, most countries, mainly in south-east asia, they just dump all the polymer waste into the ocean, and don’t care , of course, it’s cheaper than making a landfill, then you have to... cultivate this landfill, which means that a fertile land will appear on top of the already frozen landfill layer so that grass, trees grow there, and so on, that’s it to say, it requires costs, which is why the problem with large garbage, it is really important

, and it really needs to be solved, but it should be solved not by banning the production of some kind of plastic there, reducing it, but by ... doing the right thing with to make do with plastic after its service life has expired , that’s what sometimes now, let’s say, the european commission recently adopted, they started, they started with ear sticks, here are ear sticks, for some reason the main danger was, now in in europe you can't buy earplugs a stick, a frame that is made of plastic, it is now made of thick cardboard, i can tell you... that this is much less convenient, it breaks, naturally, and the benefit of this is very small, just recently, the european commission has a new package accepted, which means they banned the so-called intentionally added plastic, for some reason intentionally added plastic, from their

point of view, it is mainly added to cosmetics, there in women's, for example, glitter, for example, all glitter is already, now it is prohibited, plastic glitter , they say now there was a very big boom in europe, because just a week ago they were banned, so before that, so to speak, all the glitter was swept away, so to speak, literally from the shelves, well, this, you know, means, and at the same time, i i forgot how much, but they want to achieve savings in about 12 years, i think it’s 40,000 tons per year. whereas, well , it’s easy to calculate that, say, simply due to the wear of car tires, the annual, so to speak, formation of these. here are microparticles of plastic, that’s 6 million tons per year, but

of course, the automotive industry no one can touch it, so they decided to take it out on cosmetics and children’s toys, and so in general, in principle, i thought that when it comes to plastic, this is really a very important problem, it needs to be solved mainly due to the fact that these discharges are not, the ocean, somehow prohibited, but as for microplastics, now there is a horror story that is emerging everywhere, microplastics, what a horror, i can tell you for sure that the harm from microplastics, it is completely unproven, it is a polymer , it is quite inert, and most the main thing is that people say that we are evolutionarily not adapted to this, because plastic began to develop only 100 years ago. let’s say we’ve lived with sand for millions of years, and so on, but at the same time they forget

that plastic as such is not pure, when it gets somewhere into the aquatic environment, various surfactants stick to it , when this plastic enters the body, the body develops an immune response not to the core of this particle, to these surface active... to which it i’m already used to it, so most likely all this , so to speak, will pass through the digestive system and be excreted, and there are only isolated cases when, say, these particles passed through the emissions of some kind of chemical, say , plant with harmful substances, they were absorbed by these substances on plastic then they were released in a cooperative manner, say, in the stomach of a fish, this is dangerous, indeed, but it needs to be investigated, so indiscriminately. that microplastics are harmful, that under no circumstances should you take coffee to go,

because, so to speak, it contains a huge the amount of microplastic from the cup, so to speak, will get in and so on , this will cause irreparable harm to your health, in general, i can authoritatively say that this is all nonsense, these are all horror stories that do not yet have a scientific basis, well, that is, if in i'll put bread in this bag, won't this bag emit anything harmful? of course, it won’t emit anything harmful , another thing is that waste sorting is good, in germany, so to speak, i’ve been to germany many times and, so to speak, i’ve seen all this there in my experience, it is necessary to separate food, called biomun, from, so to speak, such garbage like plastic and why, because food decomposes. faster, it’s not hundreds of years, and then, well, in a few months everything will already decompose, so this, so to speak, should go into the composter and, so to speak,

decompose very quickly, this is the separation of plastic from food, it is justified and its of course you need to do it, no, well, i mean, is it possible to eat bread after it has been sitting, you can just eat bread, but if it ’s a small piece, i’ll eat a bag, that’s nothing it will be, you can eat it, another thing is it’s not tasty, and you’re afraid of plastic , well, many people advise, never store water in plastic bottles, because plastic releases a further list of substances, deadly, do not put fruits in plastic bags, because ethylenes are released , fruits immediately begin to rot, so aren’t you afraid of plastic? no, grigory, i’m not afraid of plastic, the only thing is that i wouldn’t heat something in a bag in the microwave. by the way, when heated, what happens in the microwave, for example, no, well, just in a plastic bag you don’t need a bag, because it can

melt, but if you have special dishes for the microwave, you can safely, uh, heat it there, yulia, what do you think about clothes made of polymers? yes, i see, you are probably wearing synthetic shoes, something plastic on your head, yes, and you are not afraid, no, i am not afraid, i... many other materials, including building materials, they are much more harmful than plastic, what will happen to plastic, the chemical reason for this is long chains, plastic consists of long polymer chains, they are not volatile, that’s why ethylene from a plastic bag, julia, is still coming to you, i know that you have a whole manifesto about plastic as an object of art, if i’m not mistaken, my fest is simple, it sounds like this, you don’t need to make garbage out of garbage, at the same time

, there shouldn’t be many artists, just like me, who make from plastic... there shouldn’t be many, why? well, imagine, let’s say, i have 10 more of the same, there are 20 in one city, in another, they create such large installations and then exhibit them in the same art park, for example, the same as the muzion, and yes in each there is a park in the city, and more than one, and imagine, in one park there are 10 sculptures, 20 of them made from garbage, in another park there are even more, more, more of the same, from the outside, every city will seem like some kind of dump, because even i, as an artist, when i participate in exhibitions, festivals, perform performances, and the viewer is divided into two opinions, those that , wow, this is so beautiful, this is so impressive, and

those that say, well, it’s rubbish, that’s all equally garbage, why don’t we need it, we don’t like it, on the one hand, no matter how you need to make garbage out of garbage, and my manifesto is also that i want, of course, from a positive creative side to show the viewer that there is a problem, it needs to be solved, of course, i am for zero waste, plastic is, well, a brilliant invention of mankind. the main thing is to learn how to properly dispose of it and recycle it correctly, then we will all be happy, but i have a question for alexey yerimovich, they often write biodegradable on bags, this means that if i suddenly throw it into the forest there or a bag from the store, then through month it will dissolve, or

this is a bit of a deception, no, no, this is of course a bit of a deception, usually, when they talk about biodegradable... bags, there are, of course , completely, so to speak, made from such natural polymers, but usually we are talking about the same polyethylene bags into which starch is added, that is, a biodegradable additive, since starch quickly decomposes, then quickly, a plastic bag is crushed to the state of microplastic, say, according to the international classification, any object smaller than 5 mm in size is considered microplastic, well, i think that, so to speak, you will not be very happy if your forest is littered with, well, small particles of plastic 5 mm in size, so it still pollutes the environment, but another thing is that sooner or later this polyethylene will also

decompose, but it’s still better to throw it all in a landfill. take it, everything is equipped there, everything is there, there are the necessary modes so that in a controlled manner, so to speak, all this slowly decomposes, without causing damage to the environment, you are watching the cat podcast schrödinger, and today we are talking about plastic, how dangerous it is, how beautiful it is, here in my hands, i’ll rustle with it. a plastic bag, which is at the same time a huge achievement of science, and a certain threat to nature, to the environment, is it still possible to create such plastic that will simply turn into some elementary components in a foreseeable period, there in a year, a month, yes , of course, they are created, here are polylactides, for example, please, so

to speak, they decompose very quickly, but they are the ones you named, which of them are already now do? no, well, the bags are made from polylactide, but they, as they say, are not so durable, but for example, in the project that we recently completed, this property, the fact that polylactide quickly decomposes, was used in order to , if after this this bag is put in the field as a fertilizer, then since sick acid is a very good fertilizer for a number of plants, then a prolonged action is obtained, a prolonged release of this fertilizer and, so to speak,

enough is obtained there for agriculture good results, that is, many... it can just be used for what you say, slow decomposition, of course, if it’s hundreds of years, it’s not suitable, but if it’s a year, then it can be used for, so to speak, prolongation . collected the polymer one, poured it into the garden, and harvested it, i’m afraid that the summer resident will not be happy with the price of the package that he will receive, but how much would such a package cost, well, this is orders of magnitude, that is, it’s about 100 rubles there, well, well not 100 rubles, well, 10, well, 10 rubles is already. you as they say, a package of 100 sachets costs , well, how much does it cost? in my opinion, 40 rubles of this type, well, for one it’s 40 kopecks. julia, would you buy such a bag for 10 rubles if

you knew that it does not harm the environment, well, probably not, no, of course not, you need a lot of these bags, a lot of their bags. while i have a choice to buy cheaper or more expensive, i’ll, of course, buy cheaper, that is, we need to keep these polymers cheaper, or it’s impossible to make them cheaper, no need, we need to properly dispose of the polymers after the end of their service life, nothing will happen if you, so to speak, carefully collect all the packages and take them to the dump, so i gave the example of germany, there are a huge number of packages there, every fryer there is small, it is the one you buy in the supermarket, it is wrapped, so to speak, in a polymer package, well, it’s polyethylene, usually, that means it’s there , such a system has been in place for quite some time,

that’s all, if this package has a certain icon, then this is garbage, it’s not in the usual garbage the container is thrown away and the so-called gelbezak, such a yellow, well, big package, which ... well, every household is supplied centrally, so once every two weeks everyone takes out these hefty gelbizaks, in which, so to speak, well, basically, plastic packaging is piled up a hill in front of the house, a car arrives and takes them away to a landfill, so to speak, well, at least, or to a waste incineration plant, but these companies that produce goods... that have plastic packaging, well , polymer packaging, they are responsible for proper disposal, that’s their business , so

to say, they pay the relevant waste collection companies to do everything correctly, that’s all, this also needs to be done, that is, a huge amount, i see here even in this artillery, just typical items that would go to the gelbizak. it’s just necessary that companies, so to speak, take care of the garbage that their products produce and properly negotiate with the relevant garbage companies to properly dispose of them, that’s all. in moscow, for example, you get it right to recycle, in moscow there is no such system, in moscow there are containers where everything is put, and as a rule there is no sorting there, even i noticed that when there is sorting, they say here, this is secondary raw materials, and this is general garbage, well, how- then no one, i’m trying to put them in the appropriate bins, where the secondary raw materials are, again there are all

mixed up with glass bottles and some kind of plastic waste and something else, well, in russia there are still some sorting methods, there are, there are, there are, but in fact they are doing this, so to speak, that’s further down the line. well, this is not transferred to those who throw out garbage, but those who recycle garbage do this, of course , they sort, how to motivate people to sort garbage, you still need one bag for bottles, one for paper, one for food waste, one is mixed somewhere, probably, and you know, a person gets used to it very quickly, very quickly, so to speak , here if you do it, if like this... then everyone does it, if you don’t do it, it’s somehow, well you become some kind of, well, inferior member of society, one or two weeks, and you get used to it, there’s nothing complicated about it. yul, do you sort

the garbage? i use almost all my garbage for work, but i want to note that i still live in the city of voronezh, so we installed a tank for plastic bottles next to the regular bins, and of course it filled up within a day; there wasn’t even room anymore, and then they took it and put it away, as if people first got used to it, they started putting it there, and i also did what was not needed, here. and when they removed it, such discomfort arose, what to do, where to take it, so i try to use it as much as possible in creativity, in well, probably, friends, instead of taking it for recycling, they bring it to you, alekserimovich, and you mentioned the damage from cars, you mean tires that wear out, right? well, of course, the tires wear out, so to speak, we all know, so to speak, that they cannot

be used until... it all remains on the asphalt, it rained, it was all washed away and so on and so on, another thing is that i wouldn’t i began to say what it means, i already said, this is 6 million tons per year in the world going directly in the form of microplastics, well, ultimately into the oceans, but you see, i would did not demonize this microplastic, but no one has proven that it is so harmful. for some reason, in the context of tires, i remembered the story about these same swans, because there was also a problem of recycling old tires, and people came up with the idea of ​​making a poor, maybe, well, mass art object out of it, carving out swans, you consider this an art object, here is a carved swan at the dacha this one is so classic, i think, but more like a dubious kind of art. well, i know this

practice, what they do, you know, is the covering for playgrounds, they chop it up for some kind of sports tracks, this is just now banned in the european union, banned, yes , yes, although this, well, compared to how much tires, so to speak, wear out on the roads, this is nonsense, this is less than 10%, that is , it turns out that it is harmful, yes, for children. no, the fact that the european union has banned it does not mean that it is harmful, so to speak, there are officials there who have to work to justify their salaries, that’s all, we are already coming to the end, i have a question for you, that ’s what you gave advice to people who daily are faced with such packages, and at the same time they want to be creative, they want to be environmentally friendly, they want to be responsible, this is what people should do, of course...

sort the garbage, but in order for them to do this, it is necessary that the relevant city authorities also such a system would be developed, and so, i would advise reading less newspapers, classic advice , so to speak , there is nothing so harmful in it, but of course, so to speak, if we are talking about plastic waste, then it should be thrown into the trash, so to speak . fold it up, there's more to it they will sort it out, as long as there is no sorting, but under no circumstances should they throw him in the forest there, a common thing, so to speak , that, well, any cultured people do this, but no one would think of it, so to speak, in the forest, throw away a plastic bag there, but still it will probably reach the nearest trash cans, yulia, but what advice would you give, the same advice, the main thing is to convey

it to... to take care of nature, to teach children from a young age, it still works since childhood, i for my part would have wished, you know, to love plastic more, because in fact it is very social material, how much people suffered to get normal clothes, normal dishes, especially people in poor countries. and thanks to science, thanks to polymers, thanks to chemistry, physics, we managed to get a very cheap, very simple product , which, yes, clogs something somewhere, but on the whole it rather helps us live and live comfortably, yes, there was a podcast with you schrödinger's cat, and i am its presenter, grigory

tarasevich, chief editor of the scientific. and we talked about plastic and how