hello, today we have gathered with thoughts about memory, about its secrets and mysteries. dmitry petrovich bag, literary scholar, candidate of philological sciences, evgeny germanovich vodolaskin, writer, doctor of philological sciences. friends, i am very glad to see you. it is mutual. i have a preliminary question, or something like a warm-up, is memory more about hope or a curse? evgeny germanovich? well, is memory something that you often want to get rid of? in fact, this is so. sometimes you want to forget many things, so in some ways there is a trace of the curse here, but... memory

, uh, it gives hope in the sense that if it is a good memory, a good recollection, then they give hope that something else will happen again, petrovich, and what do you think, you know, all the same - i would put hope in the foreground, because well, we know, yes, the curse of the family, which can weigh, hang, press on itself, it is sure to exist, yes, because the golden age is replaced by the silver and further all the way to the iron.

confession is overcoming time, you return to the time before sin, as if, because this sin is washed away, it goes away, the only difference is this: you return to the previous time, but with the memory of the sin, this is already a hint at the absence of time, the absence of before and after, and there is simply a repentant sin.

remembers no specific things, but at the same time he had something to do, in old age a person, sometimes, he is not he is wise, he is absolutely infallible in his choice, although he can no longer justify it in any way, maybe tolstoy had something similar in mind when he said that a person, leaving for another world, takes his memory with him, but memory not of specific events, but memory as a certain sum of ideas of good and evil, here is a certain...

extract, uh, which already exists in isolation from specific events, that is, the memory of an old man, the memory of a child, uh. i'm not getting at the fact that a person falls into childhood at some point, i'm more in this sense, we are approaching our beginning, so this is the same empty memory, as in childhood, but only after, with experience, experience does not disappear anywhere, it's extremely interesting, to be honest, at the beginning, when you said unburdened by memory, i smiled, because i had a different associative series, yes, that in a lot of wisdom a lot...

yes, that is, we are not talking about some details, episodes, they can also be remembered, but it is important that memory constructs itself, yes, i will return to my previous thoughts, it changes me, but the task of a person to remember himself correctly, in addition to, well, probably everyone, what does it mean to remember yourself, well, you know, a person very often still records different moments in his life, a religious person, he thinks how to preserve the main thing in himself, correctly in in a moral sense, that is, again to what we were talking about, yes, it happens. to catch yourself correctly, different things happen in life, there are delusions, there are sins, but it is important to catch , construct, see the right thing about yourself, because i am the same boy who hid under the blanket from his mother, read books, i am the same boy who will not be a boy, who will die at this moment someday, like all of us, yes, but it is important to remember yourself correctly,

this is permissible at any second, in youth, in old age, yes, absolutely, that's what we were talking about, by the way, before the program starts, it has an amazing plot, i'm not sure if it 's found anywhere else in this form, it has two rivers, leto and evnoe, leto is a river that washes away bad memories, then a person moves to evnoe, which is nearby, in general, it flows, it consolidates the good, it's a good mind, yes, if i demologize correctly, again, well right away, yes, this is probably so, maybe. this is the system, it should work like this, who knows, dante, in general, was not such a special spiritual authority, but itself the idea, about this, is very close to me, very

sympathetic, because even the idea of ​​hell, there is such an opinion that hell is... an opportunity to get away from bad memories, that when you see all the beauty of paradise, then at that moment you become incredibly ashamed of yourself, this memory, it burns, maybe this is it, well, this is what chagin suffers from in your novel of the same name, yes, that is, this is actually i perceived it as an experience of hellish torments, and he does not know how to forget, he cannot forget his former forget and this is really so, absolutely true. like judas must hang himself, yes, either here or repent, so he repents, and the sincerity of this repentance allows him to come up with a new poem odysseus, in which he gives his new life. i am far from

convincing the reader that it is necessary to simply rewrite, no, it is necessary to repent, and then as such a gift, maybe, maybe, i do not... rather the question asserts, it is possible to get away from bad memories and remain with good ones before death. today we have gathered our thoughts about memory, its secrets and mysteries. dmitry petrovich bak, evgeny germanovich vadolaskin, i am vladimir ligoydo, let's continue. but look, memory is not only that we forget something, but we remember something. by and large, augustine writes about this. he says that this is such a palace. in which memories are stored, which are either an understatement or an exaggeration, in any case, the interpretation of this word in augustine, the construction of selectivity yes, yes, reality, here i have, in a broad sense, this question, in a narrow sense, a little narrower, then the question of the value of memoirs as

historical documents, because in general, what are memoirs, it is the memory of an individual. and the memoirs of another contemporary about the same events will be different, how should this be perceived? well, if you allow me, i would still start with forgetting that...

the meaning of this is that it creates a kind of three-dimensional vision, and then, you know, i immediately begin to think further i remember lotman, who says that art is the experience of the unlived, the most important human experience, it turns out that the imaginary memories of any a person, they allow him to be a creator in some sense, more than he is, more than he actually is, that is, it is almost art, yes, that is, there is no art without art, well, in general, it realizes itself in different ways, for example...

steve and his wife and there he meets vronsky's mother, he meets vronsky himself, she so wanted to live the lives of all the heroes, yes, that's the whole point, i think that the reader experiences the same thing, i so wanted as a child that onegin would not kill lensky, when i reread, but suddenly not will kill, i thought, that is, this is generally fiction, this is... in principle, the law of art, when you perceive art, you think that it is reliable, in general, memoirs are reliable not in the sense that they correspond to some case itself, as zhenya put it, they correspond to your conviction, your rightness, there is no rightness, remember the paintings of picasso or picasso, as conveniently, you can pronounce, where dora maar has two noses, yes, because he wants to see her profile at once,

that bunin was always asking him something and i was interested, well, mayakovsky asked there, and in bunin's cursed days, and there's a single phrase... absolutely devastating, i don't want to repeat it, that he would have sold everyone, including there, if they had paid, here are the memoirs of two people, and about specific ones, they don't contradict each other, these are two truths, they are both true, but

solomon's judgment, here it's as if you can't say, and what he sold or didn't sell, that's not the question, well, yes, but simply... the range of opinions is surprising, so to speak, well, yes, although here, you know, one involuntarily recalls this the famous buddhist parable of five or four blind men who approached an elephant, and from different sides, one, that is, the one with the trunk, he is absolutely right, he says, is it a snake or a wall, a rope, yes, yes, in this memory is always like this, he cannot embrace everything at once, this volumetric vision cannot give vision in general, this is our apparatus, we do not see infrared...

experience, if you approach this correctly, but it is not the actor who is required to read, but the full one , by the way, here is a very interesting topic, it can lead us away a little now, yes, but maybe we let's stop for a second, because to live, not to live there according to the system, not according to the system, again here is nikita sergeevich mikhalkov, i remember saying, when he had one phrase in mardyukov's family: oh you, 40 takes, 40, and he says that if you approach, she plays so that every time...

what leads to this emotion and to make it your own, to appropriate it, and this is scary, of course, on the one hand, it's several lives, on the other hand, as if i'll kill with my throat in a rush, distance, after all, there shouldn't be distance, no, i've been teaching acting for many years, so i'm always i'm telling you, i won't be with you, i won't argue with you, i'm a crow, i'm a crow, but i love you.

oleg strizhennyi's ninety-fifth birthday, every fantastic tomorrow on the first to mortal. has the right to wish passionate love, heavenly beauty artist, huge blue eyes that are absolutely identical to the sky you're looking at, your eyes are exactly like blue water, it was impossible to go anywhere with oleg alexandrovich, but when you go somewhere, you immediately get the attention of women. grandfather always supported me, we discussed

the role with him, it's a great luck to have the opportunity consult with a master of such magnitude, once called me and said: young girls came up to me and said: you are sasha strizhanova's dad, and i realized that finally my life was a complete success, they say that love goes away over the years, no, it's not true, in our case this is not the case, if she had not been around me, i can't imagine, i simply would not have lived to see this day, the love of my life, no, it's not too late now, tomorrow will be too late, start liquidation, what would i wish my grandfather for his birthday, this is more great-grandchildren. on saturday, on the first, in the new season one, there are already rumors about this crime in the city, wherever you go,

they say everywhere, women are lured into taxis and shot in the back, i wanted to ask you about your find, this knot seemed very massive, although it was quite easy to pick up, you are worthy of great honor, moles, honor and trust. after the war, i was looking for my son's comrades-in-arms, i was interested in what was happening there at the end of the war, and anything could have happened there , you don't have any photos of kolya, it's strange, where are they, were they here, oh my god, like my son mine is similar, you are the only real witness, the only person he came to openly, well, major, has the hunt begun? today we gathered our thoughts

about the memory of dmitry petrovich bag, evgeny germenovich vodolaskin, we continue, i try to explain to the students all the time, why do we need memory, they say, well, how does it exist, well now we can say that they will turn off the internet, they won't turn it off earlier, now we understand that the electricity may go out for some time, yes, but i really... liked it - tatyana and i vladimirovna chernigovskaya was talking about this topic once, i say, well, why do we need memory for knowledge, for education, she says, but memory is not about memorizing information that is not knowledge, but about contexts, associations, yes, that's it, if you don't have it on your shelves, yes, then it's very difficult to collect this mosaic of knowledge, how do you respond to this thesis, of course? this complex existence or existence in context is necessary, because, let's say, if

you will educate a person in the sanssouci palace, surrounding him with a wall, then nothing good will come of it, by the way, let's say, when i remember something, i often don't even remember exactly what was said, but i remember where with what facial expression, this

is such a synesthesia, or i remember what it smelled like at that moment, let's say, it smelled like sleepers at the station, olfactory memory, it is considered one of the strongest, i remember dmitry sergeyevich likhachev said that ... from childhood he remembers the smell of heated boxwood, the crimean smell, and he says, when i now as an old man i smell this smell, my mood immediately improves, memory is not information that can be presented in three pages, memory is the whole set, it is god's world as it appears every moment, but in all its fullness, therefore, actually...

no person, believer, non-believer , atheist, buddhist, whatever, can say that he does not distinguish where is good, where is evil, the gospel, well, it is clear, it is clear, like 2:2, like a theorem, but nevertheless the world is nearby, therefore some more effort is needed, identification with you, i remembered for the rest of my life a phrase from the memoirs of alexey fellovich losyev, it is like this, i know it by heart, when i first learned that the sum of the angles of a triangle is equal to two right angles, i understood that from now on this truth is mine, mine, and no one will take it away from me , you understand, this moment. what is missing, yes, is newton's law, it came to newton as an epiphany that he understood it at that moment, and things fell with the acceleration of gravity and before he formulated it, this device that we all have in our pockets, it teaches us something else, yes, that there is simply naked truth, memory, you spied it, and you, as if you appropriated it, nothing of the sort, you need to make it your own, appropriate it with a hyphen, but still, in your example from the gospel, it seems to me, here is another difference in that scientific

knowledge, but, well, if you like, forcibly, yes, i learned that 2:2, and if i argue with this, then they may take me away, but only in what, dostoevsky says, two times two is four, besides me, not dostoevsky, but an underground man, yes, yes, here is knowledge, let's say, here is connecting yourself with the gospel truth, it already requires a volitional choice, knowledge of the multiplication table, well it requires, this is a different will, yes, but this thing sets us up, that this effort requires almost nothing, yes, well, once i looked, i was a student. i say, and what was to be done 40 years ago, if you do not remember where the line of the poem is from, he tells me: go to the library, and what to the girls at the checkout you will go to, where the line is from, the years of the riotous riots passed, how to find out, well, by the way, you know, i'm talking about these - memory stealers i also wanted to talk about it, because look, we started with the fact that culture is collective memory, yes, and man is individual memory, but what happens, maybe it’s too bold a generalization,

although... in essence, it seems to me, it’s true, any information revolution, it gives a serious increase to collective memory, it begins the invention of writing, yes, printing, yes, it always hits the individual, yes, here the iliad of odysseus arises in an oral culture, the need disappears, individual memory declines, i had a classmate, which evgeniya anegina knew nayazuy, could continue from any moment, we perceived him as a boulder hero, already, although, probably, for the ancient greeks he was, well, what is there to remember. well, and individual memory, well , we can’t do anything about it, yes, this is such an insoluble story, that collective memory with the help of shche, it is somehow, well, more or less insoluble, because a person, of course , lives a short life, it takes him some period in order to join this buzzing collective creativity, yes all-human, here he gets an education, he turns on, turns on, as soon as he turns on , he has to think about the eternal. well, yes, here

's the thing, personal memory , historical memory, in fact, a person is 90 percent formed by personal memory and, uh, personal, experienced, here is historical memory, it enters into him some small 10%, the prehistory of his existence. they are the most important, but for the formation of a person as a spiritual phenomenon, personal memory is most important, personal, here, and this is like some the preface is also connected, yes, because if dante enters your personal memory, i don’t know, the french revolution, as what you know about it, the gospel history, this, this is a meeting place, yes

, individual and...

faster than individual, maybe i ’m wrong, but i just thought, for example, ilf and petrov left our background context, well, when i try to say to my students that i once said that your answers to me on... makanina, well, here’s another one, when i say who does not have trifonov in their head or students, that this is a classic, well, an absolute classic of a certain time, vladimir semenovich makanin, this name does not exist at all,

because well, as if we are accustomed to the fact that literature, art and in general our life exists on the principle of the media, on the principle of an information occasion, what is remembered is what seems to catch, as the younger generation says, and what does not catch, goes away. is absolutized on the tablets is written down forcibly, it disappears, yes, a completely amazing story, i sometimes read i can't live without him, yes, but something, that fragments of chagin in public, and there i

have a story about lenin the pechnyak, texts of tvordovsky, zoshchenko and nikolai ivanovich, here i look, no one laughs, no reaction, i say. the audience is quite young, and i say, raise your hand, who has read lenin, not a single one, that is, i'm not saying that everyone should read it, but everyone knew it, but it was part of the language, and here is an independently living phrase, here is an absolute generation gap, here maybe it is not the worst thing, this is not something that needs to be repeated day and night lenin is a stove-maker. but it shows how differently generations are structured, how different their experiences are, well, this is the flip side of accessibility, the notorious democracy, yes, because accessibility means absence, once i said in front of a large audience:

"well, let me recite a line by mandelstam , whoever can continue, continue." i didn't even recite a line, but two words: enough pouting, the audience stood up, as if i was hosting a parade, i said: "let's shove the papers in the drawer." was that then? i still have to get to where it is performed, it's terribly important, a symphony, there's no sound recording, there's no technical reproducibility according to benjamin, yes, so if you want to hear a symphony, you have to understand where it 's performed once a year, yes, get there

to the philharmonic in another city, then listen, now what are we doing, click, click, beethoven's ninth, yes, scriabin's first, but this is not fullness, this is a lightness that is false, and lightness is even... something more, as i remember zanussi telling me, who generally hadn't used a mobile phone for a long, long time, and he was telling about some a priest friend of his who had a dog barking on his doorbell, he says, why? he says, well, this is a notification, i am a man from the village, when someone came, the dog barked, when, excuse me, you are in the toilet and vivalda, yes, and this is something like that, well, this is some kind of cultural breakdown.

but it seems to me that - that is, i heard and i think that this is so, you need to learn poetry, that's exactly what i say, they say that it is better in a foreign language, well, you can learn less in your own, less effect, only i am against the word learn, you need to learn, you need to learn and uh good poems they are simply remembered, lived, lay on the heart, a national goal, well russian literature is poetry, yes, this is like a quintessential.

poems both in russian and not in russian, not in russian, i agree with you, but this is a special charm, it is still an effort, if of course it is not your native, second language, yes, that is, you understand in a special way what is such an ignoramus postach, not an invented word, but not a face, not an eye over another, not a byska, well , polish is not my native language, but this is mickiewicz and it allows you to save perfectly.

hello, i am dmitry bak, we have right here now another episode of the literary podcast, let them not talk, let them read, we are talking about very different writers, about classics, about contemporaries, but today we are talking about a man who passed away quite a long time ago, but his prose, his stories, his larger works are still very relevant, they are still argued about, their names are remembered, these are, for example, stories like nervous people, like banya, many others, of course you guessed that we are talking about mikhail mikhailovich zoshchenko, he would have turned 130 this year on august 9... we

will talk about him today with vera mikhailovna zoshchenko, great-granddaughter of mikhail mikhailovich, actress, tv presenter, hello, vera mikhailovna, hello, and also with maria aleksandrovna kotova, head of the scientific and methodological department of the state moscow museum of mikhail afanovich bulgakov, hello masha, hello, let's be informal, as in life, that's how we do it, well, let's talk about azoshchenko, let's start the conversation with this: well, zoshchenko flourished in the twenties years, gained fame, gained popularity, became overgrown with legendary stories, his life, or rather, the twenties are such a turning point, if there is something special about mikhail mikhailovich against the background of other russian writers of that time, i always, when i speak with students, introduce such a criterion: did the person have time to go abroad before the revolution, to study abroad? or did the world war or revolution catch up with him already in his early

youth, like it was with zoshchenko against the background of the same bulgakov or pelnyak or in the villages before ivanov. zoshchenko did not have time to go abroad border, like bulgakov, and it seems, zoshchenko, like bulgakov, was not allowed to leave the country all his life, and he never went anywhere, the revolution for zoshchenko, it seems to me, was a determining factor in his literary development and he counted his literary path from 1921, although he wrote before that. and he wrote stories, some beautiful sketches in the spirit of artsebasheva, nichi. nichi was his favorite philosopher, in general, in such a decadent vein, and the revolution completely changed the century.

right from the wall of the law faculty of st. petersburg university, he found himself in the thick of things, and for him, in general , there was no particular choice, yes, he immediately accepted the revolution, yes, you can say so, or is it still too abrupt? i think, if we compare with the same bulgakov, we can say that zoshchenko accepted the revolution, bulgakov, for bulgakov it was the collapse of all of vladikavkaz, yes, well, in general, according to mikhail mikhailovich, if you believe his stories before sunrise, his autobiographical things, mikhailovich. rather, he even anticipated it, because he already has it in his youth, when he told the schoolboys shakes hands with the servant, he is reprimanded for this by the girl he likes, this desire for some internal equality and dignity of all people, this history can be traced back to mikhail mikhailovich long before, maybe he did not formulate it like that in such, but that is why he

accepted the revolution, as he himself writes, joyfully, as something bright, as something that tomorrow will be better than yesterday. well, great, vera mikhailovna, you formulated it, but in a revolution there are different sides, of course, this is bright, symbolic, as the blog says, listen the music of the revolution, in the revolution it is equality, it is democracy, it is respect for another person, but there is also something else, we understand perfectly well, tragic, violent and so on, here the question is more complicated, you mentioned, of course, the story before sunrise, and we will talk about it a lot, but now let's talk about early zoshchenko, let me ask you: what, in your family, what did they say about mikhail mikhailovich, what traditions were there, what stories could there be that are unknown from his texts, but still, it's not every day that you find yourself opposite your great-granddaughter mikhail mikhailovich zoshchenko, well, there may be a short answer, none, well, let's

look at the photo, this is my dad, he is an officer, a submariner, this is the son of mikhail mikhailovich, my grandfather, valery mikhailovich. i was named in honor of vera vladimirovna , mikhail mikhailovich's wife, and you see, i was lucky, it should have been christina or ioanna, lucky that the family quarreled and dad and mom decided, so in this way to make peace. in general, well, i lied a little, the thing is that i thought so, i was just sure, in general this is not quite history, it is in the family tried to preserve, then this is the answer to your first question, how mikhail mikhailovich differs from other writers of the same time, which were.

some had a very, well, such a happy fate, yes, they koverin, for example, everyone knows him as the author of two captains, although he is much broader than just the author of this novel, but still mash, how could this happen, i still do not have a very clear picture of this, but what is growing in the country is what will later lead to this terrible zhdanovsky decree. forty-sixth year is growing in the country has a dictatorship over literature, a social order, literature must serve ideology, many succumb to this, many perceive it as something natural, mayakovsky founds the magazine lev, for him this will also end in tragedy, but nevertheless,

the serapion brothers, this is something completely opposite, yes, that...