now this is what is important to me, well , i will figure out for myself what is good and what is bad in the work that we do with the help of colleagues, with the help, so to speak, of the guys, well, i will figure it out , i already understand something, in this life, in this work, you understand, everything else is, this is here, we had alexander maslyakov as a guest. who no longer believes in words, but continues to believe in actions, although, as i understand, he does not really hope that these actions will always come at the time when he expects them, he remembered correctly, a sad result, but it seems, maybe, that's how it is, right at the moment we are talking.

goethe was a genius, only a more or less similar genius can truly understand him, an ordinary person can understand goethe only within the limits of his capabilities. hello, today we have gathered our thoughts about the great goethe. august 28, the poet, thinker and scientist is 275 years old. hello, dear friends, i greet you warmly.

pyotr valerievich abramov, candidate of philological sciences, chairman of the goethe commission of the russian academy of sciences, pyotr vladislavovich rezvykh, candidate of philosophical sciences, associate professor of the higher school of economics, i am vladimir ligoyda, let's talk about the great goethe. dear friends, this quote with which i began our conversation is a book by ivan ivanovich konaev, goethe as a natural scientist, yes, remember, at the very beginning he begins with such, at first glance, seemingly trivial, but at second glance, in my opinion , a very controversial judgment, so i wanted to ask what you think about this, because if only a genius can understand goethe, maybe we should immediately close the program in general everything, but you know, in fact, goethe is such a unique personality who transmits something from the past very persistently transmits it into the future, the germans call him the last universal genius, and the point here is not that he was born in the age of enlightenment, when there really was a time of geniuses, but the point is... probably that he absorbed

these unique philosophical, spiritual impulses of the past, well, for example, antiquity and created some kind of, i would even say, perhaps, mystery of genius, which subsequent generations constantly understand, consider and interpret differently, here in this interpretation, probably, the most interesting, i will refer here to a short fragment that he said shortly before his death in a conversation with frederic soret, and he said the following to soret: everything that i created, i collected and used it, my works are a collective entity that bears the name of goethe, this collective entity is a very interesting concept, there is the word wesen, sometimes it translates as being, but of course it is not a being, namely the essence, and of course, goethe, no matter how loud it sounds, is a whole universe, because a person who not only showed himself in all spheres of science, the age of enlightenment, in optics, in physics, in botany in... proves with microscopes, with some

things, this is probably the uniqueness, but in fact, this is my feeling from any approach to geota, this formulation is very consistent, yes, i have been accompanied all my life by the feeling that no matter what you deal with, that regarding goethe, with his with his appearance personality, with the volume and breadth of his work, with the scale of his ideas, you are constantly faced with the feeling that it cannot fit into you entirely, yeah, and you always have the feeling that you are dealing with something similar... these universal aspirations, which in and the same can really be said about

his personal biography manifested themselves, which are no less symbolic than what was actually created here on account of universalism, it is still very interesting yes, that such a definition is fair, apparently, but usually...

constantly, as it were, connected, from my point of view, this empirical approach, sensory, supersensory, very rational. perhaps it is also worth noting that the figure of goethe himself, it is always in a field of tension between these two poles, yes, such a striving for universalism, a striving for the national, all the time, as if goethe is , as it were, the most german of german poets, how can i say, yes, as the german tradition often formulates this, on the one hand. on the other hand, goethe appears as such an artist cosmopolitan scale, and his political, his philosophical views, yes, they seem to strive to overcome these boundaries, throughout the whole history, perception, too, he speaks, all the time, it means, he moves between these two poles, yes,

between the concentration of something nationally distinctive, yes, the desire to cover really everything, well, like a thesaurus of world culture, yes, it means taking in. that's what we know, probably, yes, we don't have a problem, like, say, with the historical socrates, yes, here the situation is still somewhat simpler, or are there some pitfalls stereotypes that do not correspond to reality, you know, goethe throughout his life had this interesting feature, he was constantly changing not only

externally, but in his inner spiritual essence, he has a beautiful poem called parabasa, like an appeal to erifey there to the choir or to the audience, where there is a beautiful four. "changing, preserving, here and there, here and there, in new forms i appear, to your surprise. this is one translation by nikolai velmont, and another translation,

gjot did not see, but he liked it very much, these portraits, they also constantly draw us such a proteus image of goethe, goethe is constantly changing, he is constantly different, a wonderful image of the arrest of adamovich kiprensky, kiprensky drew for 5 days, as is known, he drew four such sketches, but not a single one has survived, this is an engraving, this is an engraving by henri gravedon with this... it did not work out, but there is a very characteristic feature in the memoirs of hein himself, when goethe began to approach him through these amphilades of the room, heiny writes: "it began to seem to me that the antique was moving towards me.

" "what will his image be in the eyes of descendants, he quite purposefully

pushed some things into the shadows in his life, in goethe there is always this amazing feeling, on the one hand, of constant reproduction of distance, he understands that his image is walking ahead of him and he quite consciously addresses this image somehow, this, by the way, played a big role in his literary biography, because he is a poet, which is consciously completely with the media conditions that are for perception". his work exists, consciously deals with them somehow, on the other hand, we always understand that despite this distance, in goethe some kind of secret impulse is always discovered, which still comes out, that's when we talk all the time, does this mean that he has not changed, that this is , so to speak, from childhood until right up to old age, because there is such a point of view, at least among some biographers, correct me if i'm wrong, that somewhere on in his forties, yes... something changes quite a lot, realizing his age, yes, and giving up some habits, there

, pastimes that seem frivolous to him, so he gets on such very serious rails, or is this too categorical a conclusion? this happens after returning from italy, returning from italy is such a revolution in the goethean worldview, returning from italy is a period of opening up germination, in general, completely unique things, only now are we starting to approach to the fact that such sprouting and pro...

there is one way or another a myth, a myth, yes, wow, a living person, around him this mobile mythologem arises, and i think that almost all biographers write about approximately the same thing:

the term intellectus architipus, he has it, we thought that only, well, i at least thought that only jung came up with this word, no, it existed in antiquity, of course, but kant also, st. petersburg, they return, evgeny semenenko, then the cestra, who was his

beloved during the time of werther, came to him to visit in the early twenties, she didn't see him at all. a pagan and so on, there is evidence of his absolutely, well, i can't say it any other way, christian soul and christian behavior , caring for people there. moreover, which he didn't advertise at all and so on and so forth, so how can we approach this question? you know, i always quote his own famous words, yes, that is, from a letter to jacob, and he says there that, with the versatility of my nature , one way of thinking is not enough for me, and he also says there: as an artist, i am a polytheist, as

a natural scientist, i am a pantheist, but if for my personal existence i also need and that means yes... the salvation of the soul, then this too will provide for me, and nature is obliged to give me a new form, when i after i die, by the way, after all, he did not attend the funeral, yes he was afraid, he was afraid, and at the same time he himself says in one of his letters, in my opinion, yes, that he is not afraid of death, although this is already said by the seventy-five-year-old goethe, yes, but still there is no reason to doubt these words, that's how this topic, having become acquainted with the teaching about transmigration of souls through indian philosophy... through the philosophy of the east in general, he begins to realize this omnipresence of the spirit around. moreover, this is weltzel's idea, which comes from schelling, it was also very attractive to goethe, he even creates a poem of the same name. and they first meet schelling on january 28 , 1798, when schelling is 23 years old and he just gets a chair in jena, and in general

it's only a short distance from jena, it's about five hours by carriage, yes, and he throughout the entire life practically with schelling maintains very interesting such relations, and as for such religiosity of goethe, i have two such thoughts on this account, but the first, it is absolutely such, i would say, maybe mystically esoteric, but goethe in some sense became, maybe without suspecting it, the creator of his own religion, you see, at the beginning of the 20th century they called it goetism, and then it began to be called anthroposophy, and there were a huge number of people in russia.

habits i buy the magazine science and life, in this in the science magazine science and life i read an article by academician mikhail arkadyevich ostrovsky, who has spent his entire life studying human vision, the eye, yeah. and academician ostrovsky writes there that at the end of the eighties, his team discovered a special protein in the human eye called rhodopsin, which, in response to

incoming light quanta, organizes a response light from the eye. and so, further i quote verbatim: nature has created a living biophotomultiplier in the human eye. goethe , without a microscope, guessed this at the beginning.

so, it is clear that he is especially worried about the whole, but not the christian separately, yes, the christian picture of the world, he is especially worried about this teaching about eternal torment, then yes, of course, he distances himself, so to speak, from all kinds of church forms of religiosity, yes, we don’t know very much, in fact, about his individual religious life it is rather closed, well, but it is obvious that in this regard he shares the problems of his era, yes, that is, like herder, like lessing, he sees in christianity, of course, a real historical force that moves humanity towards humanism, yes, the savior for him is first of all the highest embodiment of the ideal of humanism, yes, and this for him represents, as it were , the main core of the christian tradition, whereas - an internal problem, and he obviously leaned toward the idea that ultimately salvation is available to everyone, well , it represents, of course, a deep

attempt for him, as for many others, to see god not dogmatically, to see god in a reflection in some symbol is unrealistic, let's put there the doctrine of eternal hellish torment, yes , this is where faust ends, everything is an endless symbol of comparison, this symbol yesss , yes, what goethe constantly spoke about, the most difficult thing is to see, he has a wonderful... wonderful quote: the most difficult thing is to see what is before your eyes, so try, yes, it would seem that this is this given, but to see it , to realize it not only rationally, but also spiritually, this is not so simple, this is part, again , of goethe's worldview, that is why for for him, looking into nature has, as it were, a fundamentally religious significance, yes , of course, yes, that is precisely why he takes such a critical position, yes, in relation to this

modern european natural science of his time, yes, which lacks precisely this, lacks precisely the humble looking into nature that allows one to recognize the divine presence there, well, let's - although time is inexorable, there are many topics, but let's still talk about goethe the scientist, also generally not typical on the one hand, right? looking into nature, well, it seems to me that there are many different, different lines that came together here, yes, his, his fate, on the one hand, as i already said, of course, his studies are natural

science, they are inextricably linked with his, well, with his public service, yes, with his professional activities, so he gets involved in collecting, yes, that means, a significant part of the collection of the house on the house museum, the nafraun plan is a natural science collection, yes, minerals, yes. herbariums and so on, yes, on the one hand, on the other hand, of course, this is such an attempt to find, as it were , a new access to nature, in which it would be possible to combine all the advantages of scientific, strictly scientific thinking with openness to contemplation, which is so important for an artist, which is so important for a poet, of course, as if peering into nature, goethe is looking for there, yes, that means, in the presence of this all-pervading divine energy, therefore. it is very indicative that he is in various spheres, yes, and this is really, this is optics, and botany, meteorology, geology, that means, well, that's it

accordingly.

color, is worth all that clouds, describing the effect of color, strange today sounds, what i created in the teaching about i wrote as a poet, this is the greatest book, nature itself can envy me, god himself, although he in some other place he complains that he wasted a lot of energy here on the non-main thing,

by the main thing, as i understand it, i mean poetry after all, the main thing is after all. our era of enlightenment, and there is also a very interesting quote, shortly before his death, when faust was already completed, sealed, goethe writes in a letter to humbaldt, here again, as far as science is concerned, a stunning letter, there are magnificent words, on everything that i created faust, i threw clothes, so that each new generation will discover something of its own, and then he approaches the idea of ​​the conscious unconscious, this is from

the point of view of psychology, somewhere he says: the conscious and the unconscious move in the human mind like a weft and a warp, conscious and unconscious, he corresponds with carus, with a romantic, with an artist, with a psychiatrist and he looks in here into these, as it were, abysses of the unconscious long before the appearance of jung, freud and others, that is , a most interesting thing, and of course faust in this regard, it is not only, as they say, the crown of creation, but it is also a reflection of all his searches in terms of religion, by the way,

just like his hero, he hanged himself, although he was from a fairly educated family, and then in some amazing way goethe enters, i would say, probably, into the flesh and blood of the reading intelligentsia, and so much, i really like this comparison, that turgenev

in the notes of the hunter.

years published his texts, here i am talking, translators, who there in the seventies it is an open book, a book absolutely endless, as in the case of goethe, so in the case of faus, yes about the study of russian culture, add, well firstly, i wanted to say two things, firstly, of course, werther and faust are definitely leaders in russian reception in relation to everything else, yes, neither goethe's prose was so actively perceived in russia, yes, yes, nor his lyrics had, although of course we have a genius.

perhaps other aspects of creativity are still waiting for their russian perception, you know, dear friends, with great gratitude to you for this conversation, i would like to finish with this: nikolai karlovich medtner, the composer, had such a criterion,

what can i live without, yes, without this in music, he says, i can live without this, without this, i want to change it a little and ask you at the end of our conversation, what in goethe can you not live without, taking it out of brackets? he says: yes, it is wrong when they say, that between two extremes lies the truth, between them lies the problem, he says, yes, this is what, it seems to me, permeates

all of goethe's work, this idea, yes, it is in his lyrics, it is in his dramatic collisions, in his theatrical works, and faust, of course, yes, it is the same, his famous novel is imbued with it. and selective affinity and and the master, yes, this is the vision, this is the idea of ​​the necessary productive unity of opposites, which always gives rise to something new, this is it seems to me that this is some kind of goethean nerve, yes, which is everywhere, everywhere in everyone, in every line, thank you, what i discovered for myself in goeth 25 years ago, and indeed, without which, probably, it would already be difficult, this special attitude to the world, which i try... as if to perceive it from him is very difficult, this amazement before life, this constant surprise, because as soon as you say that you know everything, or everything is clear to you, science and life itself end there, and as soon as this

interest arises and i am also interested in everything, i everything that happens around goethe is interesting, in this field, i am interested in what is happening in life in general, this perception of life, well , let's say, at the fingertips, which are really in his lyrics, i absolutely agree here. is in his prose, is in his absolutely amazing novels and is in faust, this is of course the most amazing, if you do not understand this, then goethe will be boring, declarative, probably too philosophical and absolutely. not modern, when we feel this living beat of life, we they forgot that he was also a theater director, and in general, all the theatricality of his life and staged performances, in general, he was a director before the era of directors, if you can put it that way, because he created rules for actors, which today are quite interesting to read, this absolute and sometimes very difficult to achieve amazement before life, which we see in his poems, before amazement before a loved one, when we see him in something new of this person.

yes, the possibility of approaching a genius, here to me we somehow looped from the beginning and quotes it seems that everything turned out so elegantly, thank you very much, dear friends, the conversation about goethe is not over, i think that we will definitely continue it, i thank you, rezvykh, petr valerievich abramov, i am vladimir ligoyda, we were collecting our thoughts about the great goethe. you can watch the full version of our issue of goethe, all other issues collected their thoughts, on the official pages of the podcastlab project. hello, this is the psyche podcast and we continue to work as your navigator on difficult roads of life. our heroine anastasia does not know how to enjoy

work and whether it is possible to enjoy it at all. nastya, today together with psychologist renata bakhteeva we will try to look at your situation from the outside to look for that very destination in which there is happiness and work and pleasure and money. so, you are 23 years old. yes, that's right. do you work? yes, and you can't stand your job. did you go to work in your specialty? no. i don't like the range that i received, so i went to look for something in another field that i might like, so you came to work and what was there that made you feel unhappy, dissatisfied, the biggest minus is the schedule 5:2 from 9 to 6, well or there from 10 to it is very difficult for yourself, so i have colleagues who have three children, so they also worked. from 10 to 7 and somehow still managed to go somewhere to dance, to the theater, i

don’t understand at all, because i woke up somehow scraped myself out of bed, and got to work, somewhere the first hour or two i tried to come to my senses after the trauma of awakening, so i worked until 7 to 6, when i came home, i had absolutely no strength for anything, and what kind of work was it, that's what kind of office work was it or are you doing something office work, we were dragging furniture, no, i wasn't dragging furniture, i was sitting at the computer, making calls. it was hard for the tip, and what was hard? and i didn't like the content of my work, i thought that there would be something interesting and i was really exhausted again by the schedule, as i already said, and at some point i just lost joy in life, well, that is , somehow, you know, everything is so monotonous and in general , when a person stops wanting something, that is, he just acts on autopilot, but you make an adult decision, you leave this job and go. look for a new job? no, at first i decided that i would rest, i

am of the opinion that we work to live, and do not live to work, so, for about a month and a half i was unemployed, i really liked it, now you have a new job, but there is still no joy, there is still no joy, the first couple of months were really hard for me, because i felt like i was doing something meaningless, monotonous, mechanical, monotonous, and it was driving me so crazy that i...

i wish i could understand that it was not right, it's really hard for me, it's hard to choose, you know, there are so many different options in the world, the possibility of choice really depresses me, because... i'm afraid of making a mistake, well, come on, renata, navigate with us, anastasia, please tell me, how long have you been in your unloved job, four months, and how did you suddenly did you understand that it doesn't suit you? well , right away, right away, and what prevented you from changing it? well

, look, at work there are several criteria by which we choose it, and now my work schedule is basically fine for me, but my activity doesn't resonate with me, and what activity do i need? you see, i really want to do something and not make a mistake, but i understand in my head that well , most likely, it won't work out to do everything perfectly, and at the same time i'm really slowed down by the fact that i'm trying to somehow calculate the most correct option, for example, that sometimes i still don't understand what i want with sensations, feelings, and i'm trying

to rationally figure out with my head what would be better, an example specifically with young people , you have the same, well, probably so. also yes, well in the sense that i don't have any feelings for someone, i immediately, when i communicate with some person, i try to calculate, i immediately see points of contact in which we are not suitable for each other, but there must be some, so that some feeling arises, yes , falling in love, there is sympathy, there must be idealization, i can't do it idealize, because i immediately start to think a lot, tell me please, is this an internal controller, when he was born, was it always like this, or did something happen in your life that influenced? this excessive control in everything. listen, well, it seems to me that i have a rather anxious mother, and most likely this was passed on to me too. wow, how did you get into trouble, yeah. and are you the only child in the family? no, i have an older brother, but it seems to me that he also worries enough about all sorts of issues in life, even more than me, probably a problem with self-identification,

decision-making, difficulty taking responsibility for oneself, that is, it has always been like this. to feel a great support in oneself in this as an adult.