you can't write like before pushkin and you can't write like pushkin, by the way, that's what we 'll talk about today. tell me, please, how did it happen to you? i ask this question to many people, well, how did it happen that you drowned in brodsky, or didn't drown, you'll float in him for so many years, since you met him, i mean texts, because there was nothing to get, yes, you first studied in st. petersburg, then at the literary institute, i knew something from... taking exams in st. petersburg, but i really read brodsky for real when i was already studiosomstitute, by the way, even before receiving the nobel, not long before that, i came across ardis's photocopiers, the end of a beautiful era and part of a speech, well, yes, that's exactly what i have , before and after the departure thing, ardis is the publishing house that made the canonical set of brodsky's texts, these are actually two people, this is karl pro...

and why in a certain circle of people it is customary to call brodsky joseph, well pushkin is called either a little kazno alexander sergeevich pushkin or by the publisher alexander pushkin or simply pushkin, as is customary, and why brodsky is called joseph, we don't call pushkin alexander or lermontov mikhail and mandelstam osip, why do i think so vyazimsky called pushkin alexander, if ren says joseph, someone there can say.

brodsky joseph - that's one thing, but when people in general who rarely met him or never saw him call him that, it testifies to some kind of.

collection, something else, here i dug up, then all this is stored in a public library in st. petersburg, moramzinsky's collection of manuscripts, hidden there, a crazy number of translations that he considered them lost, in general, yes, because he wrote something somewhere on order, but when all this fell through, naturally, give an example of translations, for example, heimplutzk, he considered that it was completely lost, yes, this is the garadstvo of travel. he had these agreements, in fact, he compiled these translations for metaphysicians, and i saw echoes of these translations with this, in fact, the first letter to brodsky was, then everyone corresponded by fax, yes, about the fact that here is the idea to compile this found corpus with yours original things, they overlap, auction and... not just like that,

i studied brodsky as an ordinary graduate student or dissertation candidate, and of course, i participated in the formation of the corpus of texts of iosif aleksandrovich, this is an unusually important story, you mentioned the ardis books, i wanted to talk about this later, but since we are talking, i will tell you a paradoxical thing, which i tell students, that there are well a million collected works, of varying degrees of authority, there are - books from the poet's library, which were prepared by lev losev, i didn't have time to finish this work, but nevertheless, i consider these six collections to be the standard, which were published by ardis publishing house, and then they were reproduced in

st. petersburg by the late gennady komarov, the pushkin foundation publishing house, yes, all this - i spied on it, that's it, here are the books that look, well, about the same as the originals looked, and i'll show you now one of the original books that i have, this is the same book, this is a stop in the desert, though, this is the second edition, these titles sound like music to everyone who knows and loves brodsky, a stop in the desert, the end of a beautiful era, part of a speech, new stanzas by august, a poem called, well, sort of by byron's title urania landscape with a flood, these six books are what brodsky himself left us in the form and composition he wanted, yes, so, i can add, when i was sorting through his archive in america after his death, i discovered that he believed

that only he himself could compile a poet's selection, he was a bit, oh, he was aping us, but it doesn't matter, this is, this is absolutely correct, here i found it. the project of his unrealized chosen one, which was made before the landscape with the flood was published, then we prepared a book by olya morozova, i haven't taken it now, but it's not hard to find it on the net, look around, it's called change of empire, that's where we realized, well, with senschel the author's will, actually, the author's will, that's what he chose from all his books, we included it in the landscape with the flood entirely, because no one dared to make selections from there.

and this is the cultural artist kostya kuzmilsky, who remembered hundreds of thousands of lines by heart, when iosif sanovich was already sitting in norinskaya, kostya reproduced this entire book from memory and passed on this matter, naturally there was something there that he could remember a little, it’s not even the point, i think, it’s not even the mistakes in the texts, in their arrangement, it’s scary, it goes without saying, he simply called many, he called many things of that period kindern, kindergarten, children’s, yes, early things, it’s a special question, did brodsky immediately become great, when did this happen, i’ll show you these two books again, this is the original book by ardisovskaya, and this is its petersburg reproduction, the composition and even

the division into pages completely reproduces the original, tsypso scares, what they are passing this off as does not convince me, it is unclear in the ssu allegedly captured. confirmation, it is unlikely that a man with the same graceful figure as mine would have been among the stormtroopers, the icbm silo, in an open form, you will not see it, the feeling is complete that this is a museum exhibit, and how ukrainian bots are trying to convince the world that russia has run out of tanks, it is gratifying that in western audiences see this and refute their own fakes, antifake, premiere. season: tomorrow on the first. don't tell me only about men that they fall in love. valentina titova, one of the most beautiful women of the soviet screen. she always gave the impression of a socialite, a woman who is surrounded by the care and love of her famous men, but it turns out that

the impression is deceptive. men have always been afraid of me, and my husbands had no influence on me. get away from someone else's husband's wife. how basov reacted to yours pregnancy? disappeared? who accompanied you to the maternity hospital, i don't know, his assistants, everyone felt sorry for me in the maternity hospital, how valentina titova left vladimir basov, and what did the director write in the statement to the court, filed a lawsuit? why didn't you take the children with you? where? just yakhidno's mother? yes, you want to ask me now, where did i put the money? valentina titova's confession: a cuckoo mother or a victim of love? can a beautiful woman or actress be happy at all? no one can stand it when a person hunts only for you, in knife in hand. exclusive with dmitry borisov. premiere. on saturday on channel one. so, we continue our conversation about joseph brodsky, and

today we are talking with a brodsky expert, poet, translator, literary critic, viktor kula. what do you think, when the capital, st. petersburg, mainstream, whatever you like, line of poetry, well, there is the akhmatova bloc, the silver age, through such names of people who survived. and those living now and those who have already passed away, mikhail eremin, after all, how did it all happen, and

what is this leningrad note, what circles? well, of course, we must mention the opposition of two groups, studios, the most famous, yes, on the one hand the mining institute and gleb semenov, on the other hand the school, which later became known as the philological school, where your father's cousin was, even. because there was literature and different people, different, it depends on young people, who

goes to whom, these went, let's say, the future akhmatova sirty, went to akhmatova, kushner's circle, there came out of it, there people went, for example, to lydia yakovlevna ginsburg, someone was hanging around aranzon, here it is mentioned, schwartz, kriullin, then the aranzon security camera for the first time, you mention that he is important, he is also a poet, wonderful.

here is a fragment: over the plains of prigov flies, rubenstein flies, leviophan floats, four trumpets and reads a lot, but is completely indistinct, clarity, says.

cling to the genuine, yes, and the petersburgers have such a concept as non-wetting, i am an expert, yes, that's exactly it, water either this way or that way clings to the wall of the vessel, that's what he had, he did not fight the soviet power, he was outside of it, absolutely past, but hence the abandoned school, hence the many job changes, well then another poet and songwriter will say,

this is instinctively the greater fear of the official, for what? he did not have political poems, for what the great hector was killed by arrows, his soul floats on dark waters, what hector, when socialist competition is needed there, no, then socialist competition is good, but there were no figs in the pocket of the soviet power, nothing, not the slightest figs, and brodsky irritated me by the fact that he was completely independent, he was not to be singled out, he had no formal education, but he was brilliantly educated absolutely.

sweden's green onion, there i lie, struck down by the tracking squirrels, stepping behind the cloud curls and canopy. my widow, young, for a wreath for her beloved, tears clover from under her feet, we were secretly married here, in the granite parish, the snow created a veil, instead of

witnesses, pines, in a fern frame, the mirror where she danced in the evenings, aval cast an opalescent sheen, our nights shone with golden hair with... from my pillow crumpled, dangling there, back, now in the distance, as if through cotton wool, i hear, she drinks a swallow in the meadow, but i can’t sing along, the evening gloom knits, hides the colors, the lock goes into the darkness and the cold approaches, dying, i see the stars, they are getting closer, venus shines through the darkness, the rest is useless, wonderful, thank you very much to viktor kula, it was brodsky, it was viktor kula’s translation, i want to precede my reading

with a well-known reasoning, and here we are moving on to a very loose important matter, but still why is this a great poet, why after him you can't write like before him, well, maybe the most important thing is that he is not just archaic, but he rethought the role of a separate verse. a separate line, he has very long not just verses, and phrases inside the line, that is, the preface to the stop in the desert, it was the late anatoly genrikhovich naiman, wrote that he was one of the first to learn to write at the level of not phrases or strict, at the level of words. this is a wonderful formulation, and this phrase is very important, indeed, one can say that brodsky returned poetry to its originality. at first there was poetry, right?

miraculously returned poetry to its originality in this huge phrase, and you know what i'm going to read now, i'll read it in fragments, a large poem about john donne, it 's a huge text, it's a text that is dedicated to one of brodsky's favorite poets, john donne, he is a poet-metaphysician priest, and st. paul's cathedral, it struck him, that's what, the thing is that... he wasn't a priest at first, he was first a london don juan, this poet, shakespeare's rival, it was most likely john donne, then he suddenly

experienced some insight, like we'll talk about that too, yes or epiphany, yes we'll talk about that literally in the next point, this huge poem, baroque, overgrown, detailed, it can be said in one phrase that the priest fell asleep over the creation of his next sermon, yes, and he either didn't finish it, or it grew to the size of the world, that's all, but he said that the bell tolls for you, yes, for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you, this phrase by john donne, look, what from this simplest history is made by brodsky, i cannot read like kule, because victor kule reads not only equirhythmically, but also... well, how can i say, in tune with brodsky, i will read demonstratively, i my translations, my poems, i don’t read like that, i know, demonstratively, demonstratively dryly, a big legion to john

donne, john donne fell asleep, everything around fell asleep, the walls, the floor, the bed, the paintings fell asleep , the table, the carpets, the bolts, the hook, the entire wardrobe, the sideboard, the candle, the cordins fell asleep, everything fell asleep, the bottle, the glass, the basins, the bread, the bread knife, the porcelain, crystal, dishes, night-light, linen, cupboards, glass, clock, steps, stairs, doors, night everywhere, everywhere, night in corners, in eyes, in linen among papers, in the table, in the finished speech, in her words, in the firewood, in the tongs, in the coal of the cold fireplace, in every thing, in the waistcoat, in the shoes, in the stockings, in the shadows, behind the mirror , in the bed, in the back of the chair, again in the basin, in the crucifix in the sheets, in the broom at the entrance in the shoes, everything, fell asleep, fell asleep, everything, window snow in the window, of the neighboring roof, well... oh, i'm letting it down a little, sleep, sleep, john don, fall asleep, don't torment, caftan, full of holes, full of holes, hanging sadly , look, and a star will appear from the clouds, that

has kept your world for so many years, such poems, strange, it is difficult about something very simple, as it seems, in fact everything is not so simple, and this is only brodsky, there are no analogues, it must be said that at the time of writing this brodsky could not yet read poetry in english, he actually learned this business in norinskaya, he read everything that he could... read from the don, these were kashkin's translations, the so-called gutner anthology, she wife svyatopolk mirsky compiled by dmitry petrovich, svyatopolk mirsky, an emigrant who returned and died in stalin's soviet union, ivan kashkin, the leader of the school of translators, literalists, this is also a whole story, it is from misha meylykh, mikhail borisovich meylokhov, a remarkable living, thank god, i hope he

will look at us, he ... heard about that and heard the life story of john don, yes, about how this frivolous fellow suddenly became, suddenly experienced some kind of spiritual rebirth, he did not just become a priest, he became the builder of the main cathedral of london, yes, it's just it is not done for does not assign it there, let's talk about selabs and epiphanies, well again i'm a puzzler. things, i will say that in russian poetry there are only three systems of versification, the oldest syllabic, this is antiochus kantimir, umi unripe fruit of a short science, rest, do not force my hands to the pen, these are the verses where the whole verse is a unit, then easy pushkin, the usual pushkin blok, this is the tetrameter yam, pentameter kharey, my uncle of the most honest rules and so on, well finally the conditional mayakovsky accentual verse, listen comrades, descendants of an agitator, a loudmouth

the leader. everyone seems to be striving for the avant-garde, and brodsky, unexpectedly for everyone, becomes a demonstrative neoclassicist. eliot, his hero, whiston hewden, yes, returns to syllobic verses. in fact, the avant-garde is fantastically connected precisely with tradition, with the archaic. please, here now my friend, a wonderful poet, is the same.

brodsky, here he says that it was the exile as a result of this, well, already canonical trial, when brodsky is asked, who are you, i am a poet, but where did you study, and is it possible to learn this, yes, here in as a result of this trial brodsky ends up in exile and losev says that it was there in the arkhangelsk wilderness that this happened to him, there were two similar things, the first was the norinsk exile, the second was loneliness. arbari was the first to sweat in the years after leaving, the experience of absolutely sterile loneliness, after all , exile is not a prison, yes, he is in the village, yes, someone comes to visit him, he was a man who drank very little, accordingly, he did not delve into these very rural affairs there, he did work, yes, and what should he do in the winter, he studied english, he read poetry, he wrote poetry himself that's it, i was in norinskaya, they don't

organize small festivals there. there's even a museum there, yes, yes, a museum, that's it, that's what they organize, not many people come there, that's why it was important for me to understand the chronotope, all this, and the same thing happened in anbar, in his interview with the late petya valya, yes, and was it there that he first became a poet who saw the light of day, that is, whether he had to go into exile or not, that's it, he fell out of the hustle and bustle, that morinskaya became his mikhailovsky. mikhailovskaya is also an exile, well, what insights, and boldina, he, he fell out from social life, from love carrots, which tormented him, for him it tormented more than any persecution of the authorities or than anything else, he fell out, that's it, naskalt, left to himself in sterile solitude, surgically sterile solitude, the same thing happened, here is a remarkable book, rugged terrain compiled by petya

during brodsky's life. from the memoirs of the throw as he told, he says, i found myself, this is a small town, actually argis, and i say, i stand, i have no one with talk, it's not clear, there is no tradition of our continuous communication, i absolutely, yes, calls at night, but at the same time, brodsky was a poet in residence for years, yes, then, that is, the first, the first anaberov years, sterile. but individualism, god, empire, these are three themes, and it is generally accepted that brodsky, well, an extreme individualist, which

contradicted soviet collectivism and so on, here is an early poem, loneliness, this is still the end of the fifties, when it loses its balance, your consciousness is tired, when the steps of this ladder disappear from under your feet like a deck, when your night loneliness spits on humanity, you can reflect on eternity and doubt the purity of ideas, hypotheses, perception, a work of art by the way, the very conception of the madonna, the son of jesus, but it is better to worship the given with its deep graves, which will then seem so sweet after the passage of time, this is such a manifesto of a person who is closed in on himself, no? then yes, but this is again just an instinctive attempt of a soviet person to break out somewhere, but at the same time the point is not that he broke out, there is a concept of freedom for and freedom from, here is the initial freedom - this is freedom from, and a truly free

person, he is free in himself, does not need to be pushed away from some things, yes, this is a very subtle phrase, joseph was precisely one of the most free subtle phrase of viktor kule. yes, that is, this is not just opposition to violence, opposition to violence, false collectivism, but this is a deep internal freedom, which includes god. now there are a lot of such situations, when people argue about what specifically to write about, about this it is necessary, about this it is not necessary, but brodsky teaches this, does not teach, how this does not teach anything, and brodsky gives an example of what is not important, what is important is how, of course, and art is about how, exactly.

speaks as a poet, well, i am simplifying a lot, but such is the story, in the beginning was the word, the word was with god, there was god, so the thing here is that the poet, he deciphered, he often in interviews in some other essays there flashed this thought that the poet is an instrument of language for the continuation of his existence, as a person, in fact, the people's tool for continuing their existence. what we found out today with you, dear friends, we talked about brodsky, of course, but we found out that it is precisely through the example of brodsky, and by discussing brodsky, that we can break through to an understanding of what is happening now in general with poetry,

art. brodsky knew how to make great art in practice and knew how to theorize about how it is arranged. this happens very rarely. we talked about this today with a remarkable poet, translator, literary critic and expert on joseph brodsky, my friend, viktor kule. thank you very much, vitenka, i am sure that we will talk here in the studio more than once, to you, our dear friends, as always, i say emphatically: read with pleasure. hello to everyone who is watching and listening to us, with you is the podcast schrödinger's cat, and i am its host, science journalist grigory tarasevich. today

our guest is katerina nikolaevna polevanova, professor, doctor of psychological sciences, scientific director of the center for the study of modern childhood, higher school of economics, and we will talk about modern childhood. hello, about modern childhood, let's ask the question right away, and how does a modern child differ from a non-modern one, the one that was 50 years ago or 30 or 130. so, let's divide, and how do children differ from children, and how does childhood differ from childhood, because if we are talking about children, then they, relatively speaking, the laws of their development, apparently, have not changed either in 50 or in 100 years, the brain has remained the same, yes, here are the circumstances in which they live, expectations from them, what what do they want from them, what do they charge them with, as they say, yes, it's all different. their opportunities are different, so i always prefer

to talk about the change in childhood, and what has changed? so, look, 100 years ago, the place where i was born and the family i was born into determined what would happen to me, and the school i went to knew exactly what i would need in 10 years, in this sense, adults are smart, children are stupid, adults make children that... smarter, they knew what to teach, they knew what to expect and so on further. today we live in a situation of uncertainty, this uncertainty, in fact, is, uncertainty, determines childhood, our life as a whole, that is, the old model, that i am an adult, i have a beard and glasses, so i am ready to teach any child how to live, how to marinate shashlik, how to get married, how to read books, this model is dying, right? and is it good or bad? well,

in general, no one has proven that it was good there, it is bad now, so let's carefully say that it has become different, different, that's bad, good, in fact this is also from this authoritarian lexicon, you, vasya, are doing badly now, and you, masha, are doing well now, but can children teach an adult anything? i'll explain where the question came from, and i still work at a school where i supervise projects, yesterday just... i had sixth-graders, three groups of sixth-graders, for me small, they are somehow such, children of the topic, so that you understand, one boy comes out, such a red-haired, little boy, with such a childish voice, the topic of the prisoner's dilemma and its mathematical model, i remember my third year of university, i can’t remember the mathematical model of the prisoner’s dilemma completely, but these are partner games, a girl comes out, literary improvisation, like people, so,

in the public sphere 60 years ago there was much less, you definitely should have read the master margarita, there, i don’t know, you should have gotten the magazine novy mir, such and such a movie, and so on and so forth, and there were topics for conversation, that is, we all knew what we were talking about, we were in this capsule, or bubble, as they say now, and the conversation is about where the word tsez came from when applied to salad and so on.

well, they usually say that the smarter a person is, the easier it is for him to pronounce these words, so in this sense i don’t know how to answer you, but still, as an adult parent, a teacher , to come to terms with the fact that a child can say something important, smart, useful, which this adult does not know, well, how should i answer, what kind of answer do you expect when a student comes and says something that you do not know, not from the area there is his sphere there is hype or there i don't know what they are interested in, but i read scientific.

here at the top, this is the amount of information that is absorbed during a traditional lesson, lecture, when a smart person comes out and teaches life, a little more reading, more video, but not fundamentally more, demonstration more, more, more, more, and the base of the pyramid, the best training is when a person teaches others, frankly speaking, for me it was not obvious, does your data confirm this? well, of course, you can brazenly say that yes, but in fact we just don’t do such research, but i had some work some time ago about project activities, and of course everything happens completely differently there, another aspect, it’s kind of close to your picture, i would say, it’s about emotion,

because we have training, emotion is emasculated in it, emotion doesn’t live in our school, it’s strange if a child experiences some kind of... emotions, at the same time, if you take part in a training, for example, yes, then you will come out simply overwhelmed with some kind of emotions experiences, and you will remember this forever. in this regard, my participation, my emotional, emotional involvement in something, yes, it means that it will remain, it will be remembered, and i, perhaps, will return to it, i don’t know how i will use it.

some bypasses, yes, in order to convey it to you, yes, some workarounds, that is, i begin with my knowledge somehow, as it were, to work seriously in order to invest it in you, after all, well, between 10% 90 the difference is very big, in the family, at school there is a place where a child can study, some time ago, i will not retell the family situation, well, in short, a thirteen-year-old boy tried to tell his mother and me the content: the game he plays, we were wildly bored, so parents do not really like to listen, well, what parents do not really like teachers love him very much, and where in general a child who knows a lot, he reads more than an adult, sometimes, i think, i don’t know about your data, but...