you already excuse the primitiveness there is not only no object of knowledge, but there is no subject. today we gathered with thoughts about the great philosopher plato, doctor of philosophy, roman svetlov, doctor of philosophy, dmitry bugay, candidate of political sciences vladimir ligoy, yes, we continue. what do you think, in the formation of personality, well, in addition to the fact that we understand that the meeting with socrates, the death of socrates, well, a lot, if not everything, in the life of plato was determined, yes or in many ways determined, here. what would you highlight from those personal characteristics in which we more or less can we be sure? again, the problem of personality in assessing earlier cultures is a rather complex problem, because for us, such words, these categories of thought, they seem natural, but the greeks did not use them, yes, in this sense, always, when we talk about the personality of plato, then firstly, this is a bit of a conversation in...

that he supposedly meets socrates there in 477 bc, this is such a late antique mythology, because plato belonged to a family that socrates communicated, and roughly speaking, when plato was not born there in 428 or in 424, he was born in that circle where socrates was an extremely popular figure, that is , plato's great-uncle, plato's uncles, these are all people who are called in greek:

in his work, this is again an attempt, why this philosophy, it became, gave rise to this invariance, because it was a response to a colossal crisis, and a proposal for a new system of these rapper points or values ​​or language, with the help of which it was possible to to withstand the crisis and change values, here is plato, in fact, re-evaluating values, because the old system of values, it led.

the topic is the crisis of ideology itself, the crisis of culture, i can probably add to this only some details that are curious, maybe i have been doing this for quite a few years, i am just interested in how plato was read, yeah, in the ancient world, why was it read like that, why so, what could have been the reason for this, as far as we can judge in later times, why plato was read like that, why did he suddenly turn into a variety of characters in the last century, in my opinion. reasons, and i now, well, as if, in the form of a joke, although maybe in what i will say, there is only a grain of humor, no, maybe plato is one of the most dramatic of all thinkers, who understood one thing, who really said in that language that he was not

really understood for a long time, here - actually, what karl barth once said, the author dies in the text, here is this famous place from the dialogue of fyodor, yes, it is from fyodor's dialogue, where he criticizes written speech, and where he says that well, well, it's like a statue, on which, why does a statue say something, something has always been written on it, it says the same thing, that's why in my opinion this is just a kind of dramatic moment, a person who realized this, perhaps, just seeing how he reads his dialogues, well, if they read, yes, his students, yes, and, it seems to me, this adds a kind of vitality to this person, he is truly a fighter, of course, for constructing a system of values,

vision oral written word yes somehow stop here a little bit from which point it is accepted to consider well at least maybe at such a level almost amateurish yes or even amateurish, that socrates did not write anything, which is also not true, yes he did not write philosophical works. but plato already wrote there, aristotle already wrote and the attitude to the oral written word is already changing, as far as i understand, correct me, actually in plato and also in aristotle, the oral word is valued much stronger than the written word, actually, this is what i just heard, including in your words, yes, probably, neither plato nor

aristotle would have thought of saying, well, if you want to know what i think about this , read this book of mine, how correct is what i just said, is it possible to talk about the attitude to the spoken word, including, based on what roman viktorovi, you just said. it seems to me that you are absolutely right, the fact is that archaic greek culture, the same, is built fundamentally differently than, for example, middle eastern cultures, like, if we take egypt, if we take mesopotamia, yes, then there, accordingly, it is a culture, the transfer of knowledge, it arose around arctic foxes, around bureaucracy, but... one way or another it was connected with this symbol and the reality of a written book, well , like a cuneiform tablet, yes, it was connected with these written practices, greek culture is originally

different, that is, it is originally really this culture, archaic greece, is a culture primarily of the oral spoken word , when a greek speaks of the word, he means primarily the sounding, living oral, spoken word, for him, even if we take aristotle, who is, as it were , a figure that is gradually moving away from these archaic, as it were, greek concepts, even for him the written word is the lowest level of meaningful speech, because there are things, they are reflected in our mental representations, then they are reflected in our oral word, and then they reflect...

reading texts that would not be constantly, you do not correct students, you work with them on the text - this is the thing from which they receive most, maybe not even knowledge, but the ability to work skills to philosophical work, it seems to me that plato also spoke about this in this from this point of view he is right. but let's talk a little about the academy, when i read in losev, what the academy looked like, i asked someone where, where did alexey fyodorovich know in general, what it was, what it looked like, but i don't remember who i was told that alexey fyodorovich could afford it. this is a description, but in fact this is also a beginning, yes , also the creation of an educational institution, of course

not like the one we have now, but nevertheless, i myself believe that the platonic academy is rather a community of people around plato, which interacted with him, that is, i do not believe that lectures were given there, i do not believe that these classes were subordinated to some kind of curriculum, well, there was some kind of charter there, where it said, that it is actually religious. no, it is, it is, it is all attempts by later philologists to guess, and what it was, yes, and there are very different very different versions, someone suggests that it was a political union, someone, for example, a velomovite, he once wrote about how it was, well, it was a fias, a fias established to serve the muses, well, these are again our attempts to find some kind of label that can be attached to it, but it seems to me that it was something more amorphous, which is also called quite normal for the culture of that time, education, that's where plato, as a person

outstanding in intellectual relations, and who proposed this new, i would call it so, logical-mathematical program of renewal of knowledge and morality, he was surrounded by people who for one reason or another this program was close to, that is, plato, he is still in what, as it were, his significance, he was a propagandist, a popularizer, a participant in that scientific revolution. and the higher sciences, which allow, as it were, to establish this order, this is mathematics and well,

what plato calls dialectics, yes, around plato gathered people who, therefore, no geometer will enter, of course, of course, because, but plato rethought what was happening with archytas, because, again, we know very poorly, like, what was there with archytas, but in any case, of course, archytas is unlikely and this program, he was just a good mathematician astronomer, yes.

monthly feather, yes, which, where they pronounce solemn philosophical, yes, but all this was further, and with plato rather, this is such a live communication. in my opinion, plato's academy. of course, this is a kind, so to say, an intellectual club, also again in modern languages, and it may be to a greater extent, was such a search for an intellectual club than a dogmatic one, yeah, but it is still a relationship, teacher-students, or a relationship of equal interlocutors, or both, i think that it was a mixed situation, because a student is not necessarily the one who completely copies the clothes, style of speaking, intonation

of the teacher, he, on the contrary, like aristotle, can quite contrary to the teacher speak, but it will take several centuries. platonists of the middle the platonists incorporate it into the teaching of the teacher, and so yes, the academy was indeed exactly such a situation, but within its framework , programs were formed, after all, at least hypothetically, the same program, this is what needs to be taught to the guards in the state, and mathematical sciences and so on, these very programs, then they receive their expression, partly, partly in other philosophical schools, perhaps to a greater extent at the moment when the philosophies of social science became socially significant value, and this is the era of hellenism, this is alexandria, musion. this is the support of the sovereigns, something that the democratic society of athens did not support, so i think that in this sense there really was no transitional moment, there was no musion in plato's time, which he could imitate, he himself created something that was then realized in this version, doctor of philosophy, dmitry bugay, doctor of philosophy roman svetlov, i am vladimir

ligoida, we have gathered our thoughts about the great philosopher plato, we continue: plato and russian culture. not only russian philosophy, although, probably, first of all, but russian culture, as it is read by russian culture, yes, what is worth paying attention to here first of all, well, besides the fact that actually in an explicit form, as far as i understand, plato even in russian philosophy appears very late, that is, this is somewhere at the beginning of the 19th century, yes, probably, although actually lomonosov already tells us that he can have his own platos and quick-witted newtons, well, this is a fascinating very extensive certainly...

application and quite a lot of plato was translated by these people, these girls, these priests, and this is very, from my point of view this is very good, and as a first translation - this is generally an excellent experience, but naturally, again russian plato, here the understanding of plato arises in the 19th century, and in the context of again this interaction of russia and europe, that is, it arises in interaction with, first of all, with the reception of hegel. hegel's assessment of plato, his dialectic, or those who do not, do not accepted hegel's philosophy, they were more inclined to schleirmacher, again, interest

in plato shows that in the forties a new full translation of plato by the professor begins to appear. i don't really like this translation, but at the same time karpov knows german scientific literature very well, he reproduces well the comments of stahlbaum, the main commentator on plato from the germans of that time, yes, but from my point of view , the real reception of plato as plato, of course, begins with vladimir solovyovo, yes from his translations of plato and from his life drama. said that of course, he was familiar with plato's ideas, with individual phrases, plots, sometimes not even knowing whether plato or so on did it, here, but nevertheless, of course, if we talk about the russian culture of the 17th, for example,

18th century, it arose in many ways under the influence of western culture, well, aristotelianized in quotation marks, of course, yes, such a latin culture occurs, yes, indeed there was that very translation of the 16th century, unfortunately, very unfinished interesting, but a very important thing happens in the 19th century, it seems to me that one of the reasons for this... plato, it turns out, can be read in such a way that he can be those very fragments of byzantinism, well, metaphorically speaking, which have fallen on our soil completely unnoticed by us, and the fascination with plato becomes very deep, largely thanks to the drive of karpov and the appeal to him of our great leaders, the first philosophers, and the most curious thing is how i want to finish this story. about 25 years ago i took part in compiling the ontology russian way has eaten the counter on plato, it is already redoing, it needs to be improved, it came out, 25 years have passed,

until now natologies about aristotle conducts counter, although maybe at the cellular level, aristotle gave more to russia in the 18th century, i know, now two groups are working on this anthology, it will eventually come out, but nevertheless plato became our everything in the 19th century, let's imagine that... plato, if you were asked to participate in this project, what plot what move would you suggest to base it on? well, the simplest option, especially if the idea came up to make a feature film about filming it in russia, then of course it would be solovyov's life drama of plato, because plato's life drama is the story of a collapse, an idealist, i myself would have gone a different way and would have rather depicted... plato's life in his relations with here around sicily, first of all his relations with dion, that is, this is his central friendship of his whole life, i would have

shown how an intellectual personality, it is like her life motivation not only like spiritual, cultural, ideological, but also personal motivation of extremely sincere and deep friendship, thank you, romantically, i would take the trial of socrates, the trial of socrates. the trial of socrates and maybe the central event would be what is described in the apology of socrates, plato's attempts to speak out, to defend him, then that same incomprehensible illness that did not allow him to be present at the last hours of socrates' life, some interesting plot could be built around this. thank you very much, dear friends, dmitry vladimirovich pugay, roman viktorovich svetlov, i am vladimir ligoyda, we were gathering our thoughts about the great greek philosopher plato. thank you for being with us, this. other episodes of the podcast gathered our thoughts, you can find on the official pages of the podcast lab project.

hello, dear friends, this is the podcast life of the remarkable, with you i am its host, writer alexey varlamov, my guests today are: marta albertini and fekla tolstaya. we will talk about the fate of the fat in the 20th century. marta is my father's second cousin, but you know, we are in the tolstoyan family, you have been in our company many times, we somehow do not count it, we still count the generation, but so aunt and aunt. how did you meet when? we met 30 years ago in paris, i was lucky enough to get to martin's eightieth birthday.

everything was like that, but i want to say that marta came to russia and sat for hours and hours and hours in we sat together or she sat with one of her colleagues in the tolstoy museum in the archive, absolutely not getting tired, despite the fact that it was quite a difficult job and we read letters, old correspondence of tatyana lvovna, her grandmother, her mother, i translated marty into english, marta made notes in italian, in the evening she came, in the evening she came home, yes.

and the fact that marta always says: everything is fine, everything is fine, everything is wonderful, marta, are you tired? no, no, why am i tired? and i must say that the french edition came out several years ago, now the russian edition has come out, we were just in yasnaya polyana, where marta performed at the festival tolstoy, there was a presentation at the moscow tolstoy museum, and i know what it's like to give a speech and a presentation in front of an audience, when they ask questions, you speak for an hour and a half, then there's a line of forty

people. about your mother and your grandmother, it 's very important for us now that this wonderful generation, the generation of great-grandchildren, who remember their parents very well, tolstoy's grandchildren, those who were born in yasnaya polyana, who still remembered their childhood in yasnaya polyana, to collect their memories, so that their impressions, about previous generations, somehow stayed with us, i want to say that this work of marta. it is very important, because it is not a scientific book, it is a very emotional story about the fate of a family against the backdrop of the fate of the country and about the great love for russia. this book reminded me of a bestseller by pavel bosinsky, leo tolstoy's escape from paradise, where the author also writes very carefully about the tolstoy family, by the way, i am interested, marta, and you have not read basinsky's book, have not heard, i highly recommend you to read it, what i think basinsky promised marta

send this book by mail to...

when they say, lev nikolaevich is freer, or something, in the sense of in the sense of, like about grandfathers, great-grandfathers and so on, they don’t have this aspiration, like we have, it seems to me, that our figure begins from the school bench, here is his portrait at school and so on and so forth, it is more difficult for me to establish some kind of personal relationship with lev nikolaevich, well , because it’s just a completely different scale, i can’t imagine myself next to him simply as a human being, for foreign fatties for me it's just...

this is an amazing force, he fights against violence,

against cruelty, against human malice, it's even downright frightening, how fiercely he fights, i don't know if you've ever read these texts, but i'll bring this book next time, but what impression did this tolstoyan force make on you. today, leo tolstoy's great-granddaughter, marta

albertini, and i are talking about her fate, about her family, about how their lives turned out, why they were forced to leave russia in the 20th century, why they returned here, you're a great-granddaughter, and here your children, great-grandchildren on your side, for them, what is lev nikolaevich, how do they read him, do they read him? we live in 2024.

87 years old and i survived cancer, but i feel good, great, i am very happy that i can do what i like, for example, come here,

the fun in his life, in his works somehow does not fit, although i think that there was some kind of daring, some kind of daring, there was a lot of daring, yes there was a lot,

it is really cool, and i think that you are of course lucky yes here to be heirs of this person, this family. what a joy it is for you to work on these letters, these archives, because your book is really true for me, i have read many different books, i have written many documentary books, i have done many things in general , i consider myself to be an expert in this field, but what you have done, what you have dug into, you have seen these destinies against the backdrop of time, how wonderfully it is shown, but these two lines are very, very different and i am very...