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this podcast is a must-read. i am glayna batnikova. and today we are talking about chernyshevsky's novel, what to do with the writer maria arbatova. maria, thank you for coming to me, thank you for choosing such an unusual topic, because chernyshevsky wrote only one novel, it was in the sixties . 19th century, it was probably the first novel, fundamental, related specifically to the gender independence of women, so it is very nice to talk to you about this, he wrote a lot in general, the question is that chernyshevsky in general is not an ideal writer, let's say, he is more of a literary critic, well, he is more of a publicist, it is such a heap, such redundancy, such... a drag, but at

the same time filled with such correct things that, therefore, not only impressed lenin, lenin wrote something there, that he plowed me, something else, but even my generation, well, tell me what has changed since then, because this is a kind of social utopia, after all, it was written, that is, we are reading now, many things have become reality, and we no longer understand all the utopianism and fantastic nature of this text written in... at the end of the 19th century, but here's what has changed in fact since then for women, and what remains unresolved, what problems? well, i would not use the word utopia, so to speak, what to do, because chernyshevsky, after all, he grew up internally under the influence of hertzin and ogorev, who, so to speak, began to knead the women's theme, and in general the century before last, the middle - this is generally a women's issue, when the whole society is divided, and chernyshevsky. they even put him in jail, because

hertzin wrote something about him in a letter, well, i know that chernyshevsky lived the end of his life in exile, and 20 years, yeah, there in fact, he wrote what to do, because he had nothing else to do there, well, and he decided to think about a relationship with a woman, right, because the novel is dedicated to vera pavlovna and her difficult path through marriage to independence, yes, but he decided to think about it in the wrong place, he... describes his biography in many ways, because he also pulled his olga sokratovna out of such, that is , from under power, what a stuffy young man, i want to say, yes, well, i don’t know, here he is such a nerd, and then he is generally quite a handsome man, although he was very reserved, complexed, well, as she remembers him, and she was a super beauty with an italian grandmother, with an excellent education, but nevertheless he pulled her out for sure. just like lopukhov verpalnu, and he

seemed to know what he was talking about, and when i listened to it again now, as i already told you, 40 years after meeting roman, and i realized that many things were laid down in my generation by this novel, because i saw some quotes that i, god forbid, kiss without love, but it's before him, it's before him.

which modern society worships, something like that? well, yes, but if you squeeze out all the sugar, all the patyka from this dream, which chernishevsky loves so much, then you get such a hysterical analysis, when they humiliated the aunts completely, then they began to humiliate them, but pretend that they were goddesses, then they gave them a little bit of rights and freedoms, so gradually this is where the trust comes in, which is like a woman, who is trying to determine her own destiny and... as a result, she it works out, which is really surprising, because guys, this is a pose of the century before last, the middle, yes, this is precisely the women's issue, when all these pirogovs, kropotkins were seeking the right of women there to some

independent decisions, to higher education, in this sense, russia was at that time the only country where women's rights were defended by men, because there american women themselves chernishevsky. like mr. jordan, that means, they didn't know what prose was saying, yes, they laid in some sense the foundation that made it possible then women rushed after the seventeenth year, and although lenin said that chernyshevsky had outdone him, really outdone him, with this novel, what to do, yes, yes, in fact,

in what sense, what did lenin mean, well lenin, as i understand it, since lenin was a very conservative person in the women's issue, he outdid it purely economically, so now we... he gave the opportunity to this great troika, to whom few say thank you, kollantai stasova armant, to stir up all these women's, as they would say now, projects, then it was necessary to attach legs to the declaration of equality itself, here are all these same councils, they in fact not only solved the problems

of illiteracy, mostly women were illiterate, but they also became social elevators, they helped women to go up, in the thirties, so stalin had already said everything. equality has been achieved, everyone is free, everything is good, we must , as you consider, something has been achieved after all in relation to this base of chernyshevsky, what to do? well, of course , women became socialized for him, for professions opened up for her, she received it, she now did not necessarily have to get married to leave her parents, well, that goes without saying, in this sense chernyshevsky, our feminist everything, let's say so, yes. cool, by the way, yes, unexpectedly, well, let's talk about the novel birch grove, these are three volumes, the same heroine, here is the embroidery of stolen fabric, the pyramids of growth glass curtain - these are three volumes, where the heroine acts, who comes from the village to

moscow, from a small town, from a small town, well, yes, there is a village of birch grove, grandmothers are also present, and the path passes in the background. i wrote it this way because during the nineties life recruited me simultaneously on television and in big politics, because i wrote about what i know, and it was my civic duty, because among those people who were cooking up politics then, there were no people who

would write fiction, so this is a duty to the homeland, i honestly fulfilled, although many years later, what i got was this handwritten brick, and it lay, because i didn't understand how... especially since these three parts, they plowed through history together with our country, the first part came out with a cover, because +18, the second part ended up on celan closed to those who were under 18, yes, because there are words bleeped out there that children, unfortunately, have known since kindergarten, so i didn't see anything indecent there, to be honest, well, format is format, yes, the second part came out practically on toilet paper, because at that moment they started supplying us with paper, yeah, it became twice as thick, although in

it is the same in terms of the number of characters, and it could not be packed, there was nothing to pack it into, the third part had already settled down, so it was there and more or less white and more or less packed, well, the third part is the glass curtain, i was most interested in it, because it is against television, and i was also interested in it, because this glass curtain is made of... it is known that a glass ceiling keeps a woman from a social lift, and it seemed to me that the glass curtain is a kind of echo of this glass ceiling, that is, that valentina reaches some kind of peak, the main character, but she can't go further, but at the same time you describe a glass of obsession with men, and this is more of a hint at a sexual block that is destroyed in valentina, that is, it turns out that everything is tied. ceiling with a man, although he is located like this, yes, because here is the whole story of a russian woman, this is the story of her

asexualization, yes, well, in fact, here is a birch grove novel, it is like a cinderella story, yeah, like such a classic cinderella scenario, how and what to do, but at the same time - cinderella still has a certain fairy, a magical creature who gives cinderella a dress, a carriage. and you have such a cinderella, who achieves everything herself and also refuses the help of a man and says: no, i want to go up my own steps myself. well , there are wizards there too, they are not all manifested there, the question is that, as it were, the cinderella scenario is when from the very bottom you, in an amazing way, unpredictable from the point of view of probability theory, find yourself the most top, because valentina lebedeva turns out to be the most how to say rating.

during my life, the heroine my age saw a girl extremely uneducated,

because i am too smart for this story, i needed my own forrest gump, which means - got to the top by a fool, and she does not understand everything that is said in the programs, but in her such as if organic, that everyone wants to look at her, in her such a barometer, which is what her cynical producer says, right? rudolph, a tv producer with a great imagination, and could the heroine to end with a different ending, that is, after all , some man is divorced.

all her childhood fears go away, her alcoholic father, child rape, all those ugly men who were around her, and i , as a part-time former psychoanalyst, yes, this is interesting, i also wanted to raise this topic, that some experience of working with people is very much felt, that is, valentina, who sees patients, and it seemed to me that behind this there is your experience as a psychoanalyst, well, you understand, after all, no one taught her psychoanalysis. me, she studied in one of those, there were many of them in a free spiritual university, where her guru shoved everything he had thought up and collected from everything into her, but for me, the story of this book is also the story of psychoanalytic prose, which i love to write, because i want

the woman who reads it, after closing the shed, to become a little different. this podcast is a must -read, i am aglaya nabatnikova, today my guest is the writer maria arbatova, and we are discussing the novel by nikolai chernyshevsky, what to do? well, about the vocabulary, i wanted return to chernyshevsky, what to do, it seems to me that chernyshevsky, this image of the family, lopukhov, vera pavla, and then vera pavla kersanova - this is a certain image of the hip-commune, and you still belong to the hip-movement, your youth is connected.

the ethics of what is now devalued, is called vpiska, yes, well, there was no such word, then, but, but, but it was when people came from other cities, they were given a phone number or just an address of khily, they knocked on your door, you opened it, saw, he was dressed the same as you, and you let him in spend the night, you fed him, it was

like, how can i say, well, the new communism, well, well, no, partly. it was a system of mutual assistance, yeah, yeah, the word network then still meant a fishing net, but in principle it was a network throughout the soviet union, well, by the way, when valentina comes, using my experience in denmark, to the peasantry, where the hippies live, who have now been dispersed, she comes in the nineties, there was no common economy there either, it was connected with the fact that they traded all sorts of t-shirts, translator, and i went to the bicentennial of andersen, there they sent 11 people from each country, why they sent me, i didn’t understand what relation i had to anderson, i didn’t

understand, but some princess ordered some film about russia, so they put me there, she said: i want this one, that’s it, then it’s clear, yes, yes, i went there, in general, i’m not an expert on andersen’s fairy tales, well, not a trick, although of course i am an expert, because i’ve read them all, both for myself and for my children, and then i, like, this really terribly evil aunt started yelling, but i already i was involved in human rights and everything else, that i want to take away their children from all of them, in christians, by the way, valentina libedeva reacts in exactly the same way, i think, she asks to take away the children from these drunk people, of course, but you understand, she is a girl from the village, who, all her education is really a medical college, and i still. this is the most that by this time i already knew, i read more books than on this screensaver, and as if these ideals

of youth, you know, it's like in the film stelyaga, remember how it ends, when he comes from in america, they say, there are no stylists, yes, in america there are no stylists and this one can't survive, can't survive, it turns around , leaves, yes, because i think that i am some kind of flagship of freedom, though, when my sons were born and...

they show it once and i keep rereading it, waiting for something to happen here, but it doesn't matter to him, it's important that everyone here talks about philosophy, that there is no jealousy, that... love, because a lot of the focus is on personal relationships, well, he's like love, but at the same time they are all absolutely asexual in him, yeah, there in tolstoy they have

semi-sexuality, there in dostoevsky there is everything, there in turgenev there is everything, here he is an absolutely ideological person, all this consists of ideologemes, although in general it is still readable, all the time as if he is broadcasting from an armored car. such a feeling, yes, yes, not even from an armored car, here sits, the talking head in the export community and says: look , you have already crawled out of bed, well now go on about the economy, the economy should be like this such, such and such, and of course, at that moment when she suddenly understands that she loves not lopykhov, but kersanov, you don’t understand at all, because they are absolutely the same, what’s the difference, yes, yes, well here... like a little more tenderly, this one is just an absolutely wooden guy who always talks like it’s right, and he’s bored spending time with a woman, it

’s described there somehow, well, on the one hand yes, but he loves her, on the other hand she’s bored, but it’s still better than a drunk smear that her it's confusing, by the way, chernyshevsky has an interesting question, this is vera pavlovna, she is such a model of nobility, she is doing this new business with weavers, partners, who... earn for themselves, receive all the profits, and she thinks so freely that she can speak frankly with her husband, say there, i love another, yes, also a certain degree of freedom, well, this wonderful vera pavlovna, she is from the family of a drunkard, who fights, tries to give her away, tries to marry her off for convenience, is it plausible that such a vera palna was born to such a woman? absolutely plausible, because firstly, there is a downtrodden, sweet dad, so, and secondly, he gave her the right genes, well, it

’s not even about genes, he’s a drunkard for her... paid for a good education with bright ideals, she reads janja casso there all the time and so on, and i want to tell you that there is a roll call here too, remember that all these bandits of the nineties, they all taught their children, yeah, and these children come and say: daddy, what are you doing, you what, you tattoos, then, this, please, reduce, because i have a different circle, hello, how big, small, and such are you, and how many, 11 children, a feeling of universal love, universal happiness, you no longer live for yourself, but for the children, here we have just an abundance, of colors, colors, comfort, warmth, datelny, look, flax, furniture should be tactile, when you sit down, it hugs you.

this podcast is a must-read, i am aglaina batnikova, today my guest is writer maria arbatova, and we are discussing nikolai chernyshevsky's novel, what to do. in general, i really liked that in the novel there is such a concept as female friendship and family not by blood but...

well, as if she did not understand everything, the whole volume, but when she came here, she behaved, classmate, olya, an impossible beauty, and therefore, she behaved, you know, like a man on a business trip, who breaks loose and just rushes along this tunnel, he cannot be stopped, well, in my opinion, the heroine sonya behaves in a similar way when she comes to her homeland, well, well, to a lesser degree. my olya, well, i had several friends who left, close ones, and i saw all of this, but this problem did not threaten me, you never wanted to leave, never, that is, it seems to you that the destruction of this connection with the homeland, it undermines some kind of vital force of a person, yes, it seemed to me so from the novel, again because of this heroine, and it seemed to me that for the heroine valentina lebedeva, the main thing is very

important and... this root system, the connection with her grandmother, the connection with the birch grove, and sonya, who leaves for finland, well, yes, but you see, sonya, first of all, she is older than valentina, and it seems to her that she will now fly out of socialism like a bird, everything will be chocolate, yes, but the iron curtain, it did not allow people to see that life, yes, that life in the west is also generally quite hard, yeah. that in the novel birch roach there are some indications, that is, on the one hand, it is written quite traditionally, that is, women do not need to be afraid that there are some radical feminist attitudes there, everything is very clear, yes, the situation is very clear valentina, and her parents are very clear.

she is dependent on men, while she is trying to get out of some traps that her wife is men and still dependent on them, provided by socialism, so she basically has no other way than to go to the factory as a student, as her mother imagines, there are shown some supports for a woman, on which she can rely. for example, friendship with women, yes, or well, mutual assistance with girlfriends, or here is work, financial independence, which is very important, let the work not be the most prestigious massage therapists, yes, but she is one of us, but she earns her own money,

yes, at the same time, the relationship with her adopted daughter, yes, they can also be a psychological support for a woman, that is, conventionally speaking, valentina, although she does not refuse men and does not refuse her female role, yes, she still ... but - finds her own few, but supports, well, for a feminist they do not refuse men, it is important to say this, no, they just kind of - live by different rules than non -feminists, yes, but in the russian, as it were in reality there are more feminist women, because in 1917 they were told everything, now everything is fine, although of course, our labor market discriminates against women, well , in general, feminists are like normal ordinary women.

an ideal picture, yes, but she is in love with him, because he is, first of all, first of all, the man of her dreams, not because when she meets him, he is the one, there one of the youngest ministers of gorbachev's swim, but because she never had a good dad, she gets a dad, this dad is her leads her through life, develops her, and she says that thanks to people like you, i became what i became. and he tells her at the end that i am grateful to you, when she had already left him, for not having become a whore, excuse my french, having received such, such, such a sharp change in social status,

yes, she does not have any kind of star disease, she goes crazy from this television, she always wants to leave, it is not her environment, it is very interesting, in fact, and even these concepts that i come up with.

stars, because they had a very good energy fuse. maria, tell me, why read chernyshevsky today? we were preparing for the program, we read, but in general , what should we do to actually read chernyshevsky today, honestly, sincerely, with interest? well, i think that yes, of course it is work, but in fact, if you don’t periodically reread russian classics, then some of the, i don’t know, lower bricks in your personal foundation collapse, because now, when all this no longer passes in school, and well, the truth is, in my time, of course, not everyone read it, everyone said, well, whether she threw herself under a train or not,

she’ll give me a c, yes, but i, as the classic said, owe everything best in myself to russian classical literature, well, that’s how my life turned out and yes, i think it’s necessary, it’s the same. like when they start saying: let’s remove pushkin from the school curriculum, because there are a lot of incomprehensible words, yes, we even read, like chernshevsky, who was much later than pushkin, and that means we see that... absolutely not words are used like today, but we understand everything, we understand the meaning, yeah, yeah, so of course, if people start rereading everything, then, well, with age it catches up with many people, at least intelligent ones, when they suddenly bam start reading all of chekhov in turn, then bam all of dostoevsky, that's right, it's refreshing, you know, that's it, i'm already boring everyone with this chinese truth of mine, what does it mean in youth, when... a person reads books, it's as if he's looking at the moon through

the window, in adulthood it's as if would open the window and see the moon, there are already old years, like me, he just went outside the whole moon the whole sky in front of him, you read everything completely differently, that the whole text that is in front of you, it has not changed, you have changed, and you, of course, get 100 times more energy and some understanding from this, thank you for... an interesting conversation, maria, it was very nice to talk, so much was revealed, unexpectedly, even about chernyshevsky's book, what to do, not to mention the birch grove, about which it was also very interesting to talk to you, thank you, this was a must -read podcast, i am glaina batnikova, today my guest was the writer maria arbatova and we discussed roman chernyshevsky, what to do, all the episodes of the must -read podcast can be found on the website: channel 1tv.ru.

hello, with you is the popular science podcast schrödinger's cat and i am its host, editor-in-chief of the magazine schwöttinger's cat, grigory tarasevich. and our guest today is ekaterina. mitrofanova, candidate of sociological sciences, head of the laboratory socio-demographic policy of the higher school of economics, and andrey makarov, doctor of philosophy, culturologist. and we will talk about such an important, but at the same time very ephemeral thing as a generation. well, often communicating with each other, we say, this generation is such and such, that's why they are like this, or this... zoomers, millennials, someone else,

that's why they are like this, and we want to talk about how much generations, as a concept , exist, and what should we do with this happiness? a very short question for both of you, in general generation as a concept, what is it for you, ekaterina? well, for me, it is one of the main interests of 16 years of my scientific and not only scientific life, maybe even more, andrey. this is a concept, but it goes hand in hand with the concept of cohort, and first of all, it is necessary to clarify that people born in a certain period of time are a cohort, and a generation, it is already, but i have been studying a generation for several years, through the following prism: this is a generational communication model that allows us to adapt to a new reality, so i claim that there is a generation, because there is history, there is movement. and society is an organism that throws out such protuberances and

explores reality with the help of, well, yes, to a certain extent this is our kind of construct of a generation, but behind this there is a phenomenon, the phenomenon of adaptation of a social group to new realities. there are dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of classifications of generations, well, let's take the most typical one: there are baby boomers. those who were born after the war, captured the khrushchev thaw, there is generation x, i am obviously its typical representative, i am exactly in the middle, there is a generation of playing, they are also the millennium and the millennium, somehow i will be a representative here, this is you, yes, i am not a representative of any generation, the thing is, i explain that a generation is an adaptive model to reality, yes, i adapted with the help of...

there are fish, and not some other, because the stars were lying like this when a person was born, don't you think that this is the same, here a person was born in this interval of time.

classification, which, as you already said, one of many, it simply became popular in the mass media, at some point it was adopted by various marketers and so on, and thanks to these colleagues, many people really became aware of zoomers, millennials, boomers, it all started to generate memes, some local ones, then, which already went beyond the borders of america, where all these labels were originally invented. and now it is some kind of public property of the world, and of course, we, living in russia, can quite rightly disagree with this division, because we have our own history, we have our own generations, our own cohorts, and cohorts really, andrey has already said it correctly, this is a more strict concept and a cohort can be distinguished both by year of birth,

and by the time of occurrence of any event, it can be a marriage cohort, a cohort of graduates, that is, any event that unites in time these... these people, and accordingly, birth is also the same event, and demographers strictly, when studying various events, however, use cohorts, cohorts are more mathematically correct, they are more strict in division, that is, we have one-year cohorts, five-year cohorts, that is, what allows us to divide society into very understandable little squares and then study them, generations, you can see for yourself here, in some generations there are 20 years, in some generation 10 years, this is such an abstraction, such an attempt to get closer to their phenomenon of these people, which can be criticized by any person at all, because she will say, well, i personally, well, let's say, yes, born in 2000, but i feel like a boomer, will be absolutely right, because there is a certain generational identity,

which is made up of a huge number of factors that influenced a person during the period of socialization, primary, secondary and so on and... therefore, when i classify myself as a millennial, i simply classify myself as a certain group of people with whom i am familiar, with whom i share certain values, worldviews, we lived a period of life together, at school, at university, when we are surrounded by our peers, and indeed, those some basic values, maybe, that the so-called millennial generation has, i of course share, but what are these basic values ​​of millennials, what are the values?

there is, this is proof, that is, you have but we have gathered here to talk about this, and these are contradictions in actions. you do not believe in them gathered about them uh to talk, no, i do not believe that there is such a single classification in the world that belongs to absolutely any country, absolutely any, well, place, for example, a city or a village. when the generation is born, it perceives the environment in which this generation is immersed as a certain starting point, well, that is, let's say, if i was born in the nineties, for me , this childhood in the nineties is a certain starting point of my life, with which i then compare, that is, if yes... the noughties were for me a more peaceful time, when the family no longer had to survive, then i think, oh, how great, everything is developing there, but if some generation was born, for example, there i don't know, the eighties and then they saw the nineties, they got used to some more stable...