>> "consider this" will be right back. ♪ ♪ >> richard trumka president of the afl coy, representing 12,000 workers, a long time low. trumka says the workers need a better deal. >> we've given with our wages, we've given with our jobs, we've given with our homes. >> you can't look and say it's the president's fault. he's tried. now would i have done some things different? you bet i would. >> fighting for more jobs. a better deal on obamacare.

>> it's a national disgrace. >> from washington, d.c, richard trumka joins us on talk al jazeera. >> thank you. >> this is the lowest level in 100 years. you come from a mining family. decades spent in unions. did you ever think it would get to this point? >> no, i never did because i know the need for union and i know how workers need union. i never thought it would get to this. but i never also thought that there would be the concerted attack that we have seen in this country by big business, by politicians going after workers and their ability to have a voice on the job and in politics. >> do unions though bare some of the responsibility for not keeping up with the times? >> absolutely. we haven't done all the things we should be doing either. we get pretty i'd say comfortable at times. instead of reaching out i'll

point to a couple of examples young people. the workplace was changing around young people and we would go to them and say come and join us. and they would say yes unions are really good but it doesn't quite fit my circumstance. that's all right. we know but come and join us anyway. now we're doing it differently. we're going to them and not asking them temg them what they need. we're asking them what they need us to be in order to meet some of our needs. so some of the problem is ours as well. >> we'll talk about your plans in just a second but overall how big a problem is it now? are we at a critical mass for unions? >> i think we're at a crisis state where wages are stag instant for workers they're being attacked. benefits are disappearing and unless unions come back strong i think you'll see the economy continue to favor the 1% at the top and the other 99% will be left out in the cold or be so stagnant or so left behind that we won't recognize this country.

the middle class in this country is under assault. it was the trade union movement, labor union movement that built the middle class and we'll build it again. >> crisis those are pretty strong words. >> absolutely. pretty strong challenges that we face but i also say this: with those challenges are great opportunities. and that's what we're looking at. >> one of the opportunities you're looking at at the convention you have coming up ask reaching out to environmental organizations like the sierra club, the naacp. why are those organizations, the naacp, sierra club others why are they a good fit for af afl-? >> we work for issues now. none of the groups, progressive groups out there whether it's in the civil rights group oring religious group community groups, student groups, senior groups none of those progressive groups are big enough alone to be able to change the economy and make it into a shared prosperity where it works for

everybody. so it's incumbent that all of us come together. and you ask about our faults in the past. one of the things we did in the past was we would say here's our plan come and join us. now we're doing it differently. we're going to our progressive friends our progressive allies in the community and say threats sit together and make a plan that works for all of us. so we're jointly planning and strategizing and jointly executing those plans together to try to create an economy that really works for everybody. >> the plans that you have with these organizations doesn't that rely on them paying dues? >> not necessarily. we're going to be partners. we have members, they have a structure we have a structure, they don't have to pay seduce to us to create a partnership. it's like a family. >> one of the key issues for environmentalists is one you have a differing of opinion on, they hate it, you support it,

the keystone pipeline. >> there are 90% of the things we do agree on and those things, we shouldn't let the things we disagree on separate us. the other thing is even on issues that you disagree with, by us being able to sit down and talk with one another we can reconcile those and minimize those differences. will there be differences in the future? you bet there will be. and on those things we'll just have to go our separate ways that's what will happen. but we won't let those differences divide us overall and prevent us from working together and forming a real partnership. >> you understand a lot of people when they hear richard trumka some the afl-cio, they're reaching out to graduate students it sounds to some folks like desperation. >> we've always reached out to each one of those groups as a matter of fact, we've had a good working relationship with those groups. we're trying take it to the next level. they can think what they want.

they can think it's desperation. i think it's us facing the situation that we have an economy that doesn't work for everybody. we're not big enough each of us individually to change that economy. it's going otake us all building together to build the critical mass so we can change that economy and create the values that the vast majority of the people in america agree on. >> how will it work at this convention where you go to your members and say okay here is my plan for saving these unions, here's what i'm going to do in terms of reaching out. what's the message? >> that's not how we did it. we did it completely different than that. in the past we would have committee meetings three days before a convention, and then go to a convention, have a bunch of speeches and a bunch of resolutions and the convention would end and quite frankly nothing would change. we started six months ago. we brought people together. all of our friends, our partners, our allies from the community we brought in rank and file workers, we brought in students, we brought in

academics, we brought in all the best thinkers that we could. and we said let's sit and talk about what we need to become, in order to meet the needs of working america today. what we have to do. and we jointly developed that plan. and what we'll do at this convention is, we'll take the plan that was jointly dwol developed by all of us dps developed by all of us and we'll mobilize so they can go back to their communities and educate and mobilize in their communities and we can execute that plan. >> but what happens if this doesn't work? suppose union membership continues to slide, finances continues to be a problem what does it mean for working families for the next five, ten years? >> well if we're not able to change the economy, what it means by, for working families is that wages will continue to stagnate, pensions will continue to be a thing of the past, health care will be beyond the grasp of most americans, education won't be the kind of thing you can count on for your

kids. but we don't think that is going to happen. all of us coming together we can start to reverse that and build a shared prosperity where everybody benefits. what we're trying doesn't work, my hope is hey it didn't work, let's try something else instead of sticking with the tried old didn't work thick in like we've done in the past. >> when we come back we'll talk to richard trumka on education and obamacare. that's next on al jazeera.

>> and we're back with richard trumka, president of the afl-cio. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> you worked to reelect president obama in 2012.

has he helped the unions? >> what he did was turn the country around. he laid the first step, the foundation for the nation to grow. has he laid everything that we would like to see done? has he done a lot to repair the economy? yes, he hasn't created enough jobs. there are things we have been disappointed in but the president has a good heart and he's been working hard. he's been dealt a bad hand as well, it's not like he had the cooperation of the other party in trying to fix the major problems of the economy so overall i think he's working hard at it. >> the president in the spring introduced a grand bargain it would cut corporate tax rates it would essentially create billions of dollars for job creation. was the president's great bargain, a good idea? >> depending on the terms of the great bargain and who he was dealings with it could have been. he was trying to put together a number of issues. that could have been a good

thing. >> cutting corporate tax rates? >> well -- no. i think they haven't paid enough. i mean working america's paid. we've given three or four times. we've given with our jobs, we've given with our wages, we've given with our homes we've given with our retirement. they haven't given enough. they are of the notion that you should have zero neutrality. we think there should be additional revenue so we can build the economy invest in the cub's infrastructure. the country's infrastructure is falling down. we should be investing more in that to create more jobs. >> the president proposed some cuts to social or at least slowing down the rate of benefit growth. was that a wise idea? >> that was a senior moment for him he shouldn't have done it. seniors didn't cause this problem and social security didn't cause the problem with the deficit. we disagree with him on that.

i think he was trying to put forward some kind of reasonable proposal but we just disagree. i think it's wrong and i don't think seniors ought to pay the price for the party that wall street have and still hasn't paid for. >> do you understand where i'm going to understand where the president has a good heart and a lot of rank and file workers see that wages have been stagnant. benefit growth for social security and corporate tax cuts and a lot of people think wait a second we helped get this guy elecelected. >> yeah, it was a right decision then and it's a right decision now. i think he was a much nicer president than mitt romney would have been. he didn't create wage stagnation. the president's doing what he can to try to create jobs. he knows we need infrastructure, he proposes infrastructure projects and the republicans say no to it. you can't look at it and say it's the president's fault.

he's tried. not that i wouldn't have done different. >> would you have been tougher on republicans in congress? >> oh who knows. tougher, what does that mean? i think i would have bargained a little bit differently than he did. >> he's not a good bargainer. >> that's not his strong suit. >> but he's a good guy? >> he's a good guy and i think he'll be a good president. >> the affordable care act would shatter not only our hard earned health benefits but destroy the foundation of the 40 hour work week, what is the view of the afl-cio? >> well i think the affordable care act does need some modifications to it because as it does right now what's happening is you have employers that the law says if you pay your -- if your employees work 30 hours or more a week you've got to give them health care. so they're restructuring their

workforce to give workers 29 and a half hours so they don't have to provide them health care. they're also doing some taxing of nonprofit plans to pay for for-profit plans. so the idea is sound. the country surely needs something done with health care. the millions of people who don't have health care should have health care as a matter of right and the act is a good first step. it just needs to be tweaked right now to make it better. >> do you wish that the administration does a better job in articulating that? you have in 30 seconds have done a very clear explanation of why this should be. for some reason the white house can't seem to break through that easily. >> i don't know the answer to that. i think on some things the president is very, very very articulate. when he makes up his mind to be able to explain things he does so. i don't know the answer to that. you have a lot of people trying to fuzzy up a message there. you have a lot of people at the state level at the federal level that refuse to recognize that it

is the law of the land. they're still pretending that it isn't so they can do away with it. the message gets stepped on a lot and i have empathy for that. >> we are in the cesar chavez room of the -- >> one of my heroes, by the way. >> didn't corporate america as part of this immigration bill that you now support don't they put in some guest worker provisions that will in fact drive some wages down? >> just the opposite. if you look at what's happened in the past the system is currently broken. those newcomers have absolutely no rights. every time they say hey this is an unsafe place, they get fired. so they have no rights. so what this will do is, it will give the newcomers rights and they will not be able to exploit them and drive the wages down of everybody, of the americans that are already here, and established. it will help all workers by making sure that none of the workers can be exploited and

that wages can rise, not be pushed down, by having a group of 11 million people plus be in the shadows and have no rights whatsoever. >> it was not an easy negotiation though for you with tom donahue and the chamber of commerce to try to put this together. i imagine. >> it was interesting. (laughing) it wasn't like negotiating with some of my staff although sometimes that's difficult in and of itself. we looked at it and came to some good agreement. what they're going to have to do you talked about those programs a little earlier when newcomers come into the country they are going ohave to pay them prevailing wage or market rate whichever is higher. those newcomers are going to have rights so they don't get exploited so they don't get shoved in a corner and say keep your mouth shut no matter how bad the job is how unsafe the job is or you want a voice. the other thing it will do the program the w visa program is the visa used to go with the

employer instead of the worker so the worker says anything, they take the visa and say you're out of here i got the visa. now visa will go with the worker and the right to petition for citizenship will go with the worker so it doesn't continue to bust families up which isn't a value americans stand for. it will be able to bring families together and all of those workers will be able to stand together to raise wages for workers, not drive them down. >> next looking ahead to 2016. hillary clinton or joe biden. we'll ask richard trumka on ask al jazeera. from taking appropriate action in the face of such an

>> we're back on talk to al jazeera with richard trumka president of the afl-cio. the minimum wage hasn't been changed since 2009. somebody who works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year would make, at a level, is that a problem of unions but has that been a failure of some fashion? >> it's a national disgrace. we haven't kept pace of inflation. the fact that you're paying

somebody 40 hours a week, every week of the year you're still below the poverty level, that's not what someone wishes to emulate. the index for inflation and kept there forever, so workers we truly do reward work. you can't say you reward people for working and pay them literally poverty wages. >> the fact that it hasn't been changed, who's to blame? >> all of us, the politician he are to blame. corporations that are to blame. economists that make the bogus arguments that they've been making for 100 years that if you increase the minimum wage, it will cost jobs. 35 increases in the minimum wage, never seen the loss of jobs yet and iefd asked a lot of people -- i've cd a lot of people who, have you risk your minimum wage job? they say no i wouldn't riivelg

my minimum wage job for a raise. >> walmart the largest retailer, the large eggs employer? have you ever shopped at walmart? >> a long long time ago. not for the next decade and a half. >> what do you think? >> i thought it was a good idea, when sam walton first started, plate in the u.s.a, he took pride in that. our economy is 72% driven by consumers. if consumers don't have money they can't spend money. if they can't spend money the economy canned grow it's simple as that. and they're starting to see that. the model of those low wage retailers is now coming under question and under fire. their sales were down. consumers are backing away because we're getting striated in the country. you got the high level stores and you got the low level stores. and with the low level stores, the wages of working americans

flat, so they can't shop and they're buying less. >> isn't it possible that the reason sales are down at walmart and it is according to latest economic reports, is because low wage americans are falling further and further behind. it doesn't have anything to do with walmart but it's another indication of who's being left behind in our economy. >> i.t. has having to do request walmart, they are the driver of that, the low wage model that everyone emulates so it's all about them and they're starting to get their own medicine now. the people that target as shoppers can't buy the products because they don't make the wages to buy the products. >> 2016 i think a lot of these issues are going to be part of the conversation. is there a differential between joe biden and hillary clinton? >> is there a difference? >> is there a difference between joe biden and hillary clinton in, on union issues?

>> they are both friends, i think they are good people and have good hearts and we'll see what they stand on. if they go by the policies in the past they'll be more in common than it separates them. >> if they are going osay okay we're going ocontinue the policies of president obama we're going to try oreach to the center would that be acceptable or would the unions say you know what we're going owithhold our support unless you go further than president obama. >> it's not about the left right or center but what works, what creates jobs. if they say we're not going to create jobs or do the policies that haven't produced jobs they're not going to garner our support and there are two levels of support. they can get an imorm endorsemed not have the enthusiastic support of our members. when our members enthusiastically support someone because they believe of the policies that that person espouses, it's when we are at our best and we are at a buzz in

the community, people get out, come to the polls and come in record numbers and we elect people. >> the political system itself we know the corporations are doing, what they get for their money loosening environment standards, it goes on and on. what have unions been able to get in your view over the last 20 years in terms of all the money you've pumped into the political system? >> david you don't tend to the understatement but you just did. what they get is more than just the things you talked about. the money they have, the absolute use of the that money and the absolute use of that money has given the control of policy in this country and that's been bad. the vast majority of americans have suffered because of that policy. we have a supreme court that equates dollars with free speech. now, i do not believe that george washington and hamilton and jefferson were sitting around the table when they were drafting the constitution. they said you know george, i

have $2,000 and you only have one. that means i get twice as much free speech as you. >> strong majorities of americans agree with you. >> absolutely. >> what can be done therefore to change it? >> i think we have to do a lot of things. i think it's legislative fix, supreme court fix, changing the supreme court, i think it will take the constitution change to say once and for all that money doesn't equal free speech that the guy that makes minimum wage ought to have just as much ability to speak in the economy as the guy that makes a billion dollars a year. that's not the way the system is. it may take a constitutional change but i can tell you we're going oorganize and mobilize and educate around that very issue because i think the american public believes that corporations shouldn't have more rights than people. they should have less rights than people and currently they have more rights. >> if our campaign finance system was appended and let's

suppose we were going with a public financing system corporations couldn't give money -- >> like the rest of the modern world? >> and the unions would be limited in what they could give would that be acceptable? >> absolutely. absolutely. we could have real debates. we could talk about issues and we don't have 10,000 commercials where i try odemonnize you and you try demon -- to demonize you and you try to demonize me. focus group after focus group looking at that type of campaigning and the american public is just sick and tired of it. if we had real debates where issues were discussed in depth not ten seconds for you and ten seconds for me. but let's take this tonight we'll have a four hour debate and it will be about the economy. you and i will talk about the economy. here's how i'm going ocreate jobs here's how you're going to create jobs. the american public would cheer, it would be such a relief for

them, such an energizing idea you would see a renewed participation in democracy. that's why you have fewer and fewer people voting because they think no matter who wins, i lose. >> but to be clear you support taking the money out of politics to that extent, in other words having publicly financed campaigns saipg look we're not going to allow to have these massive exaibs and use the airways for the greater good? >> yeah, we would support that, we've supported that for 50 years now. aback in the '40s and '50s we were talking about that in the labor movement. and you will see us talking about campaign reform in the years to come and actually the months to come. >> richard trumka president of the afl-cio it's been a pleasure to talk to you on talk al jazeera. thanks for being on the program. >> thanks for having me on and congratulations for launching the new network. >> thank you, appreciate it.

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