tv The Stream Al Jazeera September 26, 2013 7:30pm-8:01pm EDT
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♪ hi i'm lisa fletcher, and you are in "the stream." why is the confederate flag so polarizing? we discuss why america still struggles with one of its most controversial symbols. ♪ latoya peter is here with me tonight. she filling in for our digital producer, wajahat ali. behind the scenes you guide our social media team.
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you are more connected than anyone in a lot of ways. >> definitely. i try to better represent people in our conversation, and definitely watching over the social media conversation. >> a social media guru as we like to refer to you. >> that's right. we have a very fascinating conversation tonight. and we have tweets coming from every which way. and not necessarily what we would think. we have user martha . . . this is a very complicated topic, and always remember this is a live conversation, that you
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can join in right now, using hashtag ajstream. >> many states still grapple with where the confederate flag still have a place in this country. the latest stir has taken place on private property just off of i-95 near richmond, virginia. now the move is being challenged. in fact more than 23,000 people signed an online petition in protest. how can americans reconcile with the flag's layered history? joining us to try to deconstruct the controversy is the washington burrow director for the naacp. on skype is the commander of chief of the confederate
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veterans. and incidentally, we have reached out to the virginia flaggers group multiple times. they did decline to appear on our show. hilary, people view things in life through different lenses. when you see the confederate flag what do you think about? >> i think about how it's steeped in a very troubling, violent and racist history. it represents a succession from the union and support for slavery in our country. and the stars and bars that most people fly, that's actually the confederate battle flag. so that is a flag that represented the confederacy as it fought. it actually moved to maintain the segregation. and of course, racism, and
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institutional slavery. >> and as a black man how does it effect you? >> it should be a relic. and quite frankly it is a very troubling part of our nation's dark history, of segregation and slavery. and it actually arises those -- those senses of -- of discrimination in our society. so it should be addressed along those lines. when i see it flying along those lines, i'm wondering why. we should never forget what the confederate flag stands for, but it should not be flown in a place of on -- honor. >> when you think about southern heritage, how do you define that? >> how do you define any heritage? it's -- [ inaudible ] -- >> you sound great. >> i'm hearing it as well,
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so . . . any -- any -- thank you very much. any -- in anybody's heritage that is just their history, they celebrate it, if you take it into context of how it is being celebrated. that's the way to look at it. but first of all, let me make something clear, the flag that is not the stars and bars, he has confused that with the first national flag of the confederacy, this is not the stars and bars. in the view of the people that wish to put that up [ inaudible ] certainly the war is a dark period, but we have nothing to do with the people that use it for evil intent. >> fascinating. in terms of evil intent it seem there is so much discussion of
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heritage versus what the history is. here is a wonderful video comment from byron. >> they assume just because of my skin color i'm going to see the confederate flag as a racist symbol, but i don't. one reason is i'm not a hypocrite -- and i don't feel like i'm being a hypocrite, if i support and love that flag right there, you know, if -- if i thought the confederate flag is racist, then i'm going to think that right there is racist too. because slavery happened under that flag too. >> kristin, one of the things that your organization is trying to do is to -- the american flag instead of a confederate flag.
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what do you think about what byron just saad? >> i can understand his perception -- [ technical difficulties ] -- it's not 1863, and i believe the united states flag represents everyone and is inclusive of everyone. i don't know that everyone is not involved in confederate history, nor does everyone have hef heritage regarding that history. >> a lot of bad things hand under the american flag, not just slavery, but there was a time when women were not seen fit to vote, we has japanese internment camps, all under the american flag. so what makes the confederate
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flag stand out more? >> well, we have watched out segregation and racism has moved out there our society. but the constitution of the united states of which that flag represents is one that guarantees the opportunities even as much as we haven't fulfilled them. but the confederate flag represents the confederacy. the confederate documents that were sent forth calling for succession all called for states rights so states could maintain segregation and slavery in the country. all of those papers said because we want to have that kind of independence. so it represented a ideology that was flawed and racist from the beginning. >> michael i want you to jump in. >> that's not true what he is referring to is the succession documents. and a few referred to the
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slavery issue, but they also by not following the constitution that they broke the rules. look at what abraham lincoln said right after the election, he said the republican party was a sectional party, and he said, quote, it is just what we attempted to bring about. it calls it's a national, but it is not national, it is sectional. the republican party is the party of the north pledged against the south. the worry was the north was going to overrun the south. and in 1860, where we like it or not, and i'm against slavery, but slavery was legal. if they wanted to keep slaves all they had to do was stay in the union. jefr -- jefferson davis said
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we're discussing the confederate flag's contentious history. joining us our discussion is the senior vice president of the first amendment center here in d.c. thanks for joining us. >> glad to be with you. >> whether we're talking heritage or hate, is the confederate flag free to fly anywhere. >> we set a very, very high bar for government to stop us from expressing opinion. and certainly the fact that people may dislike a phrase, symbol, or saying, or viewpoint is not enough to allow it to be restricted by government. there's a difference between our rights and determining as a society what is the right thing to do. but you can fly the confederate flag or the flag of any nation as a symbol of your opinions or views. >> it's interesting to see what the community is saying about
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this. because the feelings are still very, very strong. however, we have another video comment from nancy who notes why she doesn't think they should move on. >> i'm from paris, texas. like it or not, the confederate flag is a part of american history. what it symbolizes to some is quite different from what it symbolizes to others. it is a part of free stretch just the same as someone burning the american flag or burning a bible is considered free speech. people need to just get over it and grow up. it is part of our history. >> now hilary what do you think about this idea that it is free speech no matter what. >> it is true. it is free speech. i do agree with this analysis of the first amendment right.
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we have to put it in its proper place in history. it's an historic relic, and it should not symbolize what our nation is now or is to be. when i think about the confederate flag again, i also think about some of the more heinous incidents that happened in our society with that flag flying. when the civil war was over there were generals that took that flag and -- night wririder and ku klux klan flew that flag too. there were incidents along the lines of hatred. they all loved to fly that flag as a symbolism of hatred and segregation in our society.
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>> michael? >> if somebody is using that flag for hatred is it the flag that you hate? my organization does not use the flag for those reasons and we abhor that. we fly the flag because we want to remember the sacrifice of the people that lived in the southern part of the united states that were attacked. nobody even asked -- even bothers asking the question why did they invade? you keep talking about succession, but why did they invade? why did they send troops to kill people? can you actually answer that? because it wasn't for slavery. there wasn't a single person saying or a single political party that ever said their platform was to end slavery. >> you are saying this was about state's rights. >> no, i'm saying this is about invasion.
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there wouldn't have been a war if there was no invasion. and a million human beings wouldn't have had to lose their lives. >> james jump in. >> i think missing if you will from these two points of view is the group that you just mentioned the group that hijacked your symbol. it took that symbol and made it a symbol of hatred. and there is nothing that precludes people of having a message of hate, but one of the things that i find really constructive about the conversation tonight is i'm hearing viewpoints that you don't commonly hear, and there's a theory under the first amendment called the contrarian theory, and that is we often need to hear viewpoints we don't like, if for no other reason but
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to be better able to debate those in a free and open society. when we see something we don't like, we're energized to speak out for the views we do have. and again, that's the marketplace of ideas, and we're talking here so much about what is preferable in our society, or maybe politically correct, but our founders said every viewpoint should be able to be expressed. >> go ahead, kristin. >> i'm all free speech. however, just because one had the right to do something, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. i would like to touch on the point -- i believe his name is matthew hienbalk, he is a known white supremacist. he marches with these flaggers, and he is invited to their
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barbecue on sunday. he is a known white supremacist, i don't think that's the message to be sending along with the confederate flag. the entire symbol is extremely divisive, and you throw something like him in there who is actively flagging with the flaggers here in richmond, virginia. >> kristin, can i jump in for a quick sec. one of the things is this idea of perception. people are saying it is this historically, but our community seems very, very united on what the flag is. kevin notes . . . and so it's interesting to hear the different things on the flags because some users are
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questioning is it unpatriotic. sylvia notes . . . michael you would be able to speak to this. >> i certainly would. they -- they threaten to take the president of the confederate states of america to court and to try him on treason, and they dropped the charges. you can't say that it is treason. treason is spelled out in the constitution. succeeding, which is exactly what the colonies did from great britain, the southern states sa seeded from the government of the united states. and the it was a federated policy. was not this overbearing super strong central government we have today. >> michael, why -- why the fixation on the confederate flag
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as the representation of southern heritage and culture? is there perhaps another way to symbolize that without creating such controversy and bringing out all of these negative racist, oppressive emotions from people. >> well it has pointed out already, that i certainly do wish that we had somehow stopped people from using it improperly. we perhaps couldn't having this conversation today if the ku klux klan didn't use it. your friend kristin was speaking about somebody i don't know. and making judgments about somebody she was saying was [ inaudible ]. it's hard to say what symbol the confederate battle flag flew over solders, period. it wasn't a government flag. it was a symbol that was used to rally forces.
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and people died under that trying to save themselves from an invasion. >> all right. when it comes to flying the confederate flag, just because you can, does it mean that you should? does publicly flying a flag, impact race relations in a community. second us your tweets on that. and in the meantime here are a few other stories we're following.
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♪ welcome back, we're discussing the confederate flag which is viewed both as part of the south's history and culture as well as a symbol of racism. you respect the right of people to say and do things that you don't necessarily agree with, but what sort of effect does raising a confederate flag have
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on race relations in a community? >> one of the best analysis i have heard is you look at it as the swastika of white -- supremacy in america. whether hijacked or not. it had become that symbol. for some reason there are those that will enbolden themselves to come after people because of differences, but flying that flag what is it about that flag that personifies what they are when they are doing their most evil deeds. and that's how we look at it. it is those who are it fighting against integration in our society, those that want to live in peace in our society, those that would come into the black society and involve themselves in into everything from lynching to burning churches.
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>> michael? >> i really don't know why we can't have a discussion without saying thing like nazi flags. it's so insulting. i wish you would just cut it out. why can't we have a peaceful conversation and find the things we agree on, and the things we don't agree on, instead of this sort of nonsense. what is at steak here is liberty. and america created a whole brand of liberty that nobody else has ever been able to get ahold of, so that is the soul of the american republic. and the heritage foundation and "wall street journal" ranked the united states tenth in the world in economic freedom? is that what you would expect of america? absolutely not. [ inaudible ] has ranked america as 15th in the world for democracy. how can that be? how many more of our
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liberties -- >> why is your heritage so much more important than mine. >> mine is no more important than yours -- >> if we celebrated even's heritage, sir -- >> i don't have to celebrate everybody's heritage. but if you want to celebrate yours you should. [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me give you one more example of where our liberties are going. reports in 2009 united states was ranked 20th in the world in freedom of the press. today we have dropped to 47th place. how much more liberty do we have to lose before we are no longer america -- >> gene, i want you to jump in here -- >> yeah ji think we're going a little bit far afield, but in truth, typically in our country, the an dote to speech that you don't like is more speech. historically, whether it's done by the right or left, attempts
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to suppress speech, so suppress an idea just doesn't work. that idea maybe becomes a little s submerg submerged. we restrain conduct, not ideas, and again, what we're seeing tonight is the way the founders envisioned the marketplace to work. without government being involved. whether it's gathering petitions, or an organization that attempts to get its point of view across to the public. that's the value. and i think we're better off for having open discussions than trying try to suppress speech. >> that's why we're doing these shows. it's very important we understand each other's points of view. let's agree to disagree and have a civil discussion about it. what the flag represents to the
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african american community is shocking and outrageous. it has been something that has lead to not only suppression and segregation, but actual death, lynchi lynchings, but for some reason that flag seems to symbolize people being em-boldened to do just those sorts of things. the nazi party flies that flag. it's the sword and the shield in the arm of the lord, flies that flag. >> unfortunately we're out of time. but thank you all so much for joining us tonight. great spirited discussion. we'll see you online. ♪
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good evening, everyone. welcome to al jazeera america. i'm john siegenthaler in new york. a dramatic day at the united nations. significant progress on two significant global issues. eliminating syria's chemical weapons. and iran's nuclear program. the u.s. and iran come together for the first time since 1979. >> find a way to answer the questions that people have about iran's nuclear program. ♪
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