>> i'm flex , this is the stream. -- lisa fletcher, this is the stream. >> latoya petersen is here, willing in for wajahat ali. behind the scenes, she guides our social media team.

i think you are more connected to the social media team than anyone. >> i'm the senior producer for the stream, i try to figure out what new technologies to incorporate and watch over the social media conversation. >> a social media guru, as we like to refer to you. >> tonight in particular we have a fascinating conversation. it's polarising american society. we have tweets coming from every witch way, and not necessarily -- here are some: >> this is a complicated topic.

remember this is a live conversation. tweet us. >> over 150 years after the civil war began many states grapple with whether the confederate flag has a place in society. for some it represents a legacy of slavery and racism. others argue it celebrates southern heritage. here on private property off the i-95, virginia flaggers plans to fly a 12 by 15 foot confederation flag. 23,000 people signed an online petition in protest. how can americans reconcile with the flag's layered history. joining us to deconstruct the controversy is hilary fementon, michael givenons, commander-in-chief of the sons of confederate, and the creator

of the i95 petition i mentioned. >> we reached out to the virginia flaggers group and they declined to appear. >> hillary, people view things in life through different lenses, they have different experience, histories. when you see the confederate flag, what do you think about, what does it evoke for you? >> i think about how it's steeped in troubling, violent, racist history. we have a flag representing a succession and support for the institution of slavery in our country. when i think about the flag, the stars, and bars, red and black that people fly in their windows and bumper stickers, that's the confederate battle flag, it's not representing the confed rahsy as a nation, but how it

fought. how it moved to meant the segregation that was part of the land at that time and racism and slavery. >> as a blackman, how do you feel when you see it? >> it should be a relic. it's a troubling part of our nation's dark history of segregation and slavery. it arises those senses of discrimination in our society. it should be addressed along those lines. when i see it flying along the lines, i wonder why. we shouldn't forget what it stands for, but should not be flown in a place of honour. >> an argument for flying the flag is it celebrates the south's culture and heritage when you think about southern heritage, how do you define that? >> how do you define any heritage? i don't know that i hear myself speaking.

>> you sound great. >> i'm hearing it as well. thank you for fixing that. anybody's heritage is just their history being celebrated. if you take it in context as to how it's being celebrated, that's how you look at it. allow me to answer a couple of things that mr shelton had to say. the flag is not the stars and bars. that's confused with another plastic bag flag, the first national flag. this is not the stars and bars, the battle flag. in the view of the people that wish to put that up, and in my view and the people of my organization, they do not see it as a hateful symbol of the dark period. the war is a dark period. we have nothing to do with the people that use it for evil intent. >> fascinating. in terms of evil intent it seems

that there's so much discussion about what heritage means, versus what the history is. there's a video comment that sheds light on it from byron. >> they don't know who i am. they'll expect just because of my skin colour, that i'll see the confederate flag as a racism symbol. but i don't. i do not see a confederate flag as a racist symbol. a reason is i'm not a hippo crit. i feel like i'm being a hippo crit. if i support another flag there, you know, if i thought the confederate flag was racist. i'd think that is racist too. slavery flew under that flag too. slavery happened under that flag too. >> one of the things that your organization is trying to do is erect an american flag - sorry,

erect an american flag instead of a confederate flag. what do you think about what byron said? >> i can understand his perspective. however, it's 2013, it's not 1863. i believe that the united states represents everyone and is inclusive of everyone. i don't think that since everyone is not involved in confederate history, nor does everyone have heritage regarding that period, should we focus on that issue in flying a flag. >> byron makes a good point when paralleling it with the american flag. a lot of bad things happened under the american flag - not just slavery, but women were seen not fit to vote. we had japanese internment camps under the american flag. what is it about the confed rate flag that makes the negative

stand out more? >> under the american flag, there's no question we've had challenging times, we watched discrimination and racism - how it moved through the society. we have had those challenging periods. the constitution is a guarantee and opportunity, which the flag represents, even if we haven't fulfilled them. the confederate flag represents the confed rahsy. the confed rate documents calling for success talked about the importance of state's rights so states could maintain segregation and slavery in the country. those papers said we wanted that kind of independence. it represented an ideology that was flawed and racist and distr discriminatory from the beginning. >> it's not true. he's referring to the su session

documents. a few referred to slavery, but they referred to the north were not following the constitution, that they broke the rules. that's a legal stance of it. what abraham lincoln said after election, he said that the republican party was a sectional party and said, "it is just what we had attempted to bring about. it is the first sectional party organised in this country, calling itself national but it is not, it is sectional. the republican party is a party of the north against the south." the worry was that the north was going to overrun the south. let me remind you in 1860, whether we look it or not, and i'm against slavery and everyone i know was. slavery was legal. if the southerners want to keep slaves, they had to stay in the

union. if succession was successful that would be the end of the slavery. >> i want to get into more of this after the break, and i want to talk about other ways to celebrate. i want to talk about free speech and if the confed rate flag is being singled out. tweet us your thoughts. >> i'm omar, i'm a defense policy researcher in washington d.c. i'm on the stream.

>> welcome back to "the stream," we are discussing the confederate flag's history and does it have a place in our culture. >> jim joins us now. >> we are talking heritage or hate, is the confederate flag free to fly anywhere based on the first amendment? >> as a general statement we set a high bar for government to be able to stop us from expressing an opinion. certainly the fact that people may dislike a phrase, symbol,

our viewpoint is not enough to allow it to berestricted by government. there's a difference between our rights and determining as a society what is the right thing to do. as a general course you can fly the confederate flag, a flag of any nation as a symbol of your opinion or views. >> fascinating. it's interesting to see what the community says about this. it seems like the feelings are very, very strong. here are some views. . however, we have a video comment from nancy. she doesn't think they should move on. >> i'm nancy sanders from paris texas. like it or not the confederate flag is a part of american history. what it symbolises to some is different to what it symbolises to others. it's a part of free speech, the

same as someone burning the american flag or burning the bible is considered free speech. people need to get over it and grow up. it is part of our history. >> now, hillary, what do you think about the idea that it's free speech no matter what? >> it's true, but we have to determine what we do with free speech. i agree with the analysis about the first amendment right. listening to the last speaker, she's right as well. we have to put it in its proper place in history. it's an historic relic, not something carrying the ideologies of the day or symbolise what our nation is now. it's a troubling history in our society. when i think about the confederate flag i think of heinous incidents that occurred with the flag flying. if we look at that as part of the confed rahsy, and it was, when the civil war was over generals took the flag and moved

to create the night riders and the clu cluck clan. we look at some of the heinous racial instances. there was government killed in mississippi, scin heads, the clan, narzy parties loved to fly the flag as a symbolise m of hatred in our society. >> if someone uses the flag for hatred is the it the flag you hate. my organization is against that hatred and per cent accusation. we fly the flag, we want to remember the sacrifices of people that lived in the southern part of the united states that were attacked. no one bothers to ask the question - why did they invade? you talk about possession, but

why did they invade and send troops to kill people? can you answer that. it wasn't for slavery. there wasn't a single person or political party that said their platform was to end slavery. granted we are glad that they did. >> you say it's about state rights and federal overreach? >> no, ma'am, i'm saying it's about invasion. there wouldn't have been a war if there wasn't an invasion, or state's rights or anything else. there there had been no invasion, there wouldn't have been a war and a million human being wouldn't have lost their lives. this is what we talk about, people losing their lives. >> missing from the two points of view is the group you mentioned, a group hijacking your symbol, taking it, making it a symbol of hate. there's nothing precluding people having a message of hate and ignorance - frankly we are

allowed to express the views even if others find it repugnant. one of the things i find instructive about the conversation tonight is that i'm hearing viewpoints that you don't commonly hear and there's a theory, the contrary theory, and that is that we need to hear viewpoints we don't like or agree with to be better engaged to debate those in a free and open society. there's something to say that when we see something that we don't like, we are energised to speak out for the views that we do have. again, that's the marketplace of ideas. we are talking about what is preferable in our society or politically correct. we have to come back to the idea. founders say every viewpoint should be able to be addressed. >> may i say something, please? >> go ahead. >> i'm all for free speech.

just because one has the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. i'd like to touch on the point of the matthew hynebar, he's a known excite sooup remma cyst. he had friends who were the fighters. he marches with them and is invited to their family barbecue, which is what they are calling it on the 29th, on sunday. he's a known quite supremicist. i don't think it's a message to be sent with the confed rate flag. it's inflammatory. you throw someone like matthew, who is actively flagging with the virginia flaggers in richmond where i live, and it's a very explosive situation, very divisive. >> let me ask you - can i jump

in. one of the things that is talked about is an idea of perception. people are saying historically it's not. but the community seems united on what the flag it. kevin notes this is a battle flag that honourable anassessmentors fought, rallied and died under it is not a symbol of hate. it will fly as an honour to these men. it's interesting to hear the different things, some question is it unpatriotic. and silvia says: >> and bennette noted: >> michael, you would be able to speak to this. >> it was. they threatened to take the president of the confederate's state of america to court and try him on treason, they dropped the charges. you can't say it's treason.

it is spelt out in the constitution. su seeding, which the colonies did, they su creeded from the government of the united states. and the united states was a fedderated policy, it was not an overbearing, you know, superstrong central government that we have today. >> michael, that question, why the fixz -- fixation on the confeder at flag. is there another way to symbolise that without creating controversy and bringing out all the negative racist oppressive emotions from so many people. >> it's been pointed out already. i wish that we had somehow stopped people from using it improperly. perhaps we wouldn't be having the conversation today if the clu clux clan didn't tuesday it.

kristin spoke about someone i do not know and making judgments about somebody that she was saying she had some reservations. it's hard to say what symbol the confederate flag flew over soldiers. it wasn't a government flag, it was a symbol to rally forces. that's what it was. men died under that, protecting themselves and their families from invasion. that's why it is a perfect description of the southern spirit. >> when it comes to flying the confederate flag, because you can doesn't mean that you should. publicly flying a flag that is divisive - does it impact on racial relations in the community. tweet us on that. in the meantime here are a few other stories we are following: ]

welcome back. we are discussing the confederate flag that is viewed as the south's history and culture. you are a champion of first amendment rights. you respect the right of people to say and do things you don't necessarily agree with. with that level of tolerance, what effect does raising a confederate flag have on race

relations in the community. >> you look at it as the swat sticka, it's that toxic in so many communities. when we look at it we remember the clan, and some of the awful instances that were race driven in our country, specifically against african-americans. whether hijacked or not, it became that symbol. for some reason those emboldened themselves to come after the people because of their difference, but flying the fl flag - what is it about the flag that personifies what they did when they did the evil deeds. that's how we look about it, those fighting against integration, people being able to live in peace in our society, those that would come to the black community and involve themselves in lynching and burning churches. it's part of the history which the dixie flag represents. >> i don't know why we can't have a discussion without saying

things like nazi flags. it's insulting. you know it's inflammatory. i wish you would cut it out. why can't you and i, mr shelton, sit and have a peaceful conversation, find what we agree on and not agree on, and hash it out, instead of this nonsense. let me tell you this: what is at stake is liberty. america created a brand of liberty that no one else has been able to get hold of. that's the sole of the american republic. the heritage foundation in the wournal ranked the -- "wall street journal" ranked us 12th. is that what you expect. world audit ranked america as 15th in the world for democracy. how can that be. >> why is your heritage more

important than mine? >> it is not. >> if we celebrated everyone's heritage, sir, mobilize -- mobilize we'd havethen -- then we'd have >> then we would have hundreds of flags. >> reporters without borders reports in 2009 the united states was ranked 20th in the world in freedom of the press. we dropped to 4th place. how much more liberty do we have to lose before we are no longer america. to us it means honouring our anassessmentors. >> jim? >> i think we are going far afield. in truth, you know, typically in our country the antidote to speech that you don't like is more speech. historically, whether done by the right or left it attempts to suppress speech or an idea doesn't work.

the idea maybe becomes submerged. in the internet world i am sure it's impossible to stop an idea. we restrain conduct, not ideas. what we so is the way the founders envisioned the marketplace of ideas to work - that we'd have an open exchange without government being involved. whether it has so many thousand signatures, as one participant told us, or an organization, that's the value, where the first amendment comes into play. i think we are better off having open discussions than suppressing speech. the point you have doesn't work. >> let me agree. that's why we do the show. we don't have enough opportunities to have the discussions. it's important to understand the point of view. we disagree. let's agree to disagree and have a civil conversation. what the flag represents to the african-american community is outrageous. when we look at incidents that

happened, with the flag flying in full flow. it's something that led to suppression and segregation but death, lynchings, burnings and other things. it's unfortunate traditions. for some reason that flag symbolises people being emboldened to do these things. you cannot disagree that the clan flies that flag. the nazi party flies the flag. it's the shield in the arm of the lord flying the flag. >> we are out of time. hilary, michael, kristin thank you for joining us. see you online.

>> hello, welcome to al jazeera america. i'm jonathan betz, live in new york. >> it is time for my republican colleagues to do the logical thing, to do the prudent thing. pass your bill. >> time is running out for congress to come up with a budget deal to stop a government shutdown. the national security agency could be your secret facebook friend. it is reportedly collecting data on americans through social media sites. >> bad communication is getting part of the blame for the deaths of at least 19 firefighters back in june.