>> welcome to al jazeera ameri america. here tonight "r" tonight's top stories. the house has adjourned for the evening and the fate of the government is now in political limbo. republican house members tried twice today to come up with a plan to extend the debt ceiling before thursday's deadline, but neither plan could win enough support from conservative members. senate leaders have been talking about their own bipartisan proposal but were waiting for the house to act. one of the big three credit rating agencies said america's credit rating is officially under review. the dow's future has fallen for than a hundred points. negative credit watch is because

america has failed to raise its debt ceiling in a timely manner. and in geneva iranian negotiators presented a plan to break the deadlock over the country's nuclear program. and that's the news at this hour. consider this is up next. i'i'll see you back here for the news at 11:00 p.m. eastern and 8:00 pacific time. ♪ ♪

>> gridlock tips grips d.c. but republicans and democrats might have more in common than you think. is the severe political divide in this country a myth? the surprising new information on america's middle ground. also amazon.com is a huge business, so why doesn't it turn a huge profit, and is it's ceo more like steve jobs than his public persona would suggest? and the art world's man of mystery banksy brings his brand of art stateside, is it just a level of overhyped graffiti. welcome with consider this." the country's electorate my have a strong center but it's politics have left us on the edge of financial disaster. >> let's stop this. >> we need to open this government. we should do it tomorrow morning, period.

>> on the brink of a debt default senate leaders are talking bu. >> house republicans put off a bill to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling after failing to win support from its most conservative members. meanwhile fitch, one of the three top credit agencies, warn that america is on a negative credit watch. the government expects to run out of the ability to borrow money to pay the rest of its bills on thursday. a new poll shows unlike congress there is a large american center that can find common ground. a new esquire nbc news poll found that many offer agree on issues. this is progressive supporting a

higher minimum wage and gay marriage. this does little for political crisis in congress as the debt default deadline comes near. >> joining me now from washington, d.c. is bill snyder, an al jazeera contributor, and professor and distinguished fell low and resident scholar at think tank that says it represents americans in the vital center. and james warren for the new york daily news and editor for th the chicago try the chic. you both said last week that we would be here talking about this, and i hate to say that you were right. i was more optimistic than you were. the debt debacle, a deal coming from the senate and then house republicans decided they wanted their own deal. then they couldn't agree on a bill for speaker bane for bring

to the floor. then on tuesday night senate leaders michigan mcconnell and harry reid again said that they started their talks and an agreement is within reach and that will have to go at some point to the house. bill, any reason for optimism tonight? >> there is a deadline. the axe is going to fall. someone once compared it to sharknado. and if you go into default, sharks will fall on our heads and eat us up. no one knows how disastrous this could be. on that deadline they'll make an agreement at 11:30 thursday night. >> we've been through these crises before, last minute things, too, we've asked this before, but i think the average american has gotten to that point where congress' reputation is in the toilet, to put it pull lipolitely. has it ever been this bad?

>> probably not when you look at how much legislation has actually been passed th the last couple of years. i remember the clinton years and the gridlock that is the monica lewinsky scandal, but now we have a polarized congress that does not necessarily reflect the folks that we're going to be talking about in a bit. things are pretty bad. as vain as i might be, i was not hoping to be here tonight to discuss this. but do i think something will happen? i think properly. the think the treasurely department claims they've got to have a decision to raise the debt ceiling by 11:50 eastern time or hell breaks lose. i think we are proceeding upon a course in which if we don't have a deal in the next hour or two between the two key politicians in the u.s. senate, mcconnell of kentucky and reid of nevada,

they'll have it done in the morning according to aides. the senate hoping that house would go first, well, sorry about that and they'll pass their own bill. the pressure will be on mr. boehner, the house majority leaders, and he'll have to fish or cut bait when deciding whether or not to try to pass a bill with or without his republican colleagues. >> let's talk about this esquire nbc poll because it's main point is that americans tend to agree there really isn't that big of a divide among americans. it doesn't divide people into republicans, democrats, red or blue states. it divides americans in eight groups and tagged them with irritating names that we'll spare you now but basically two gropes, lef one on the left ando on the right that make up a quarter of the electorate but

the four groups in the group, and that centrist group shares broad agreement on a lot of issues. we'll get into some of those in a moment. bill, it seems to be the exact opposite of what's going on in washington. >> well, when you look carefully at that center group, the 51%, almost two-thirds of them are republicans and democrats. they're probably pretty divided on partisan officials. you asked if this was the most divided, a student, i teach a class, a student once asked are we this divided we've ever been? we did have a civil war, and 750,000 americans were killed, i don't think we'll get there, but this is the worst since the civil war. >> even those centrists are republicans and democrats, and there is much agreement in that middle, bill, amongst those americans. one thing that they agree on, unfortunately, is that fortunately is that they're very patriotic.

they love their country and they think that their country is a terrific place. but they're very pes pessimistic about the future. 58% say they're pessimistic about the politics. are republicans or democrats in the middle of this crisis offering them any reason not to be pest missic? >> not particularly. and the president tried to underscore the medal of honor with the army captain who was quite the hero, and just pose that with the distinction lack of courage a mile and a half away, it painted a bleak picture. that group is not particularly homogeneous, remember. it's a group if you add a circle you'll see a half circle at the top with some traditional

liberals, some trillion conservatives, at the bottom you have mishmash of libertarians from the left and right. the ones on the right we tend to know traditionally. but the ones on the left, jeff besos of amazon, it will be interesting if the parties can attract those folks. we have two pretty darn mayoral primaries in new york and boston. boston with a 30% turnout with all that hoopla of spitzer and just over 20% turnout. >> with the anthony weiner scandal in the middle of it, too. very little interest. we divided the country in the red and blue states and this poll shows there is what we'll call a very large purple majority in the middle that either party should be able to appeal to. if we have that purple majority

bill, where are the purple politicians. where are the centrist people who should be running our country? >> the middle majority have no representation. the parties don't represent them. ross perot tried, and he had money to do it. he did pretty well, most than third party candidates but he could not get all the way. maybe someone like chris christie he would split the republican party wide open. but they have no constitutional reputation, that's the problem because the two parties don't have much incentive to reach to the center. in many places like texas or california, they don't face any competition. republicans in texas, democrats in california, and nationally and in presidential elections those election versus gotten so very close that both parties believe that it's to their advantage not to appeal to the center, but to rally their base, their hard-core supporters and try to edge out the other party. that's the incentive. >> they need those hardcore

supporters in primaries, which is part of the problem. the poll, let's look at some of the other issues that it breaks down. one, it goes to--it raises serious concerns. it breaks down the middle by race. it founds 80% of the centrist americans are white, and some civil rights laws are taking a pummeling in the poll. close to 60% support ending affirmative action in hiring and education. 63% believe request for minority rights has gone so far that it is harming the majority. 54% oppose path to citizenship for undocumented workers. it seems for the majority of the centrists they don't see civil rights as much of a problem, jim? >> no, it's a mishmash, isn't it. i think you alluded to it before, a lot of them tend to be pro same-sex marriage, pro abortion, heavily white, distinctly secular. i can't remember the exact numbers, something like 30% may be even attend church services.

that's a significant change and telling about their world-view. and yes, i think there's a kind of very self-possessed sel self-absorbed under current for a lot of them. i got to where i am because of what i achieved. why should those liberal courts be helping others up. that's an issue that is going to take a lot of the supreme court's time this term as they rule on a really important university of michigan affirmative action case which conceivably by 5-4 vote once again giving a lot of folks at least codify what a lot of those folks passionately feel supportive of. >> going back to the purple thing there seems to be no party line for the center of the road americans. they support some liberal issues, strong majority want to see the minimum wage raised to $10 an hour.

they want to raise taxes on those who make more than a million dollars 80% say government is spending too much money, it's either waster or inefficient. washington should not take in more money than it spends. you know, they're talking tea party language at times when it comes to government spending. again, the center doesn't seem to be conservative or liberal. do we need to rethink our politics, do the people in washington need to rethink the politician. >> they're liberal on some things and conservative on other things. that's the way it's been for a long time. they favor if you look at the poll, they favor the safety net but they also favor limited government, which is what the republicans offer. the safety net and limited government are incompatible. the democrats claim boom care

protects the safety net by giving access to health insurance. but the republicans say no, it expands the power of government too much. what the center wants is both. >> and jim brought up earlier this libertarian streak that's also out there. where they really don't seem to want the government to be much involved in our lives. they don't want the government to legislate their behavior on personal issues such as guns, abortion, marijuana, and there is another side that was interesting, a real strong isolatist streak. nine out of ten want to end foreign aid and three-quarters believe that america should not be the world's policeman. >> what i would like to ask a lot of people. you hate government, yeah, because it's evil and mean and spends too much money. what if we stop picking up your garbage. what if we stop plowing your snow. what if we stop getting to you work on the subway and bus

system. what if we stop fixing those potholes down on the corner. >> but doesn't that sound like what they want government for? they just don't want government to go beyond the basics and national security and the essentials that we need? >> yes and no. there has been--i know bill thinks about this, i find a clear dichotomy when they think about government at the local level which is much more positive than what they think about government that comes out of washington where i believe at times folks are victims of significant caricatures, such as how much money we spent on foreign aid which is pennies given the side of the bunt. >> the isolatio isolationism isa problem. the president wanted to take a police action in syria, and america didn't want anything to do with it, and it decide. if a problem emerges in the

world, and no one does anything, nothing gets done. every time there is a world problem we have to be the policeman to the world. but americans really don't like that, and they don't want to do it. >> it's a fascinating snap shop of america today and it might make sense for the people in washington to pay a little bit of attention to. love having you on. i hope i don't have you on any time soon to talk about the debt debacle. >> if we're back next week the world economy is in trouble. >> i think you're right, jim. thank you both, good to see you. amazon owns the online marketplace but it's ceo is just getting started. we'll tell you how he hopes to impact space travel and the way you read newspapers next. what do you think? hermela aragawi is fielding your questions, bring send us your questions on twitter, facebook and google plus page. >>a fresh take on the stories that connect to you. >>grounded.

>>real. >>unconventional. >>an escape from the expected.

>> chances are you have a bunch of stuff in your house that was bought by amazon.com.

they sell everything from books and toys to high heel shoes even dog food. it passes $61 billion in 2012. as amazon has taken over the online marketplace it has left massive companies including circuit city, barnes & noble and borders in the wake. the new book, the everything store, the age of amazon tracks the company and it's founder. bran stone ibrad stone is the b. a really fascinating book. i saw a quote that compares besos to henry form. he has transformed sales of everything in the same way that ford changed manufacturing in general. is that a fair comparison? >> yes, absolutely. steve jobs being the other natural comparison. it's not just online shopping. he has changed way we read, the kindle, and with the cloud

services they're changing the way companies in silicon valley in particular, run their businesses on servers. >> he has done so much. he started with the books. he has gone to the toys and all these other things out there. he's been getting in the supermarket, online you can buy your stuff and get it delivered to your house. but he also--part of his focus has really been from a corporate standpoint on the consumer, focusing on consumer satisfaction rather than profits. how has he managed because the company has rarely turned a significant profit. >> it hasn't always worked. at the beginning. >> but its getting bigger and bigger. >> investors love the land rush and expansion but then for five or six years amazon was just pummeled, and no one believed. only jeff besos believing that

e-commerce could work and they just stuck it out and now people believe in him so much they're willing to tolerate some of these losses. >> is it an important model for other people, this focus on consumer loyalty and growth rather than the quick quarterly profit? >> i think amazon gets away with it because people believe in the founder and the vision. but you know, let's also be clear. their customer loyalty, the commerce focus is one thing, but they're brutal. they take competitors, they behave somewhat ruthlessly. they drive prices down to the consternation of manufacturers. we've seen that with walmart and we've seen what happens. manufacturers go overseas. great for customers but macroeconomic effects need to be considered. >> he has been tough in negotiations and really, it's an interesting history of the company. we have a social media question. let's go to hermela aragawi for

that. >> thanks, antonio. viewer wants to know based on your research, what is it like to work with besos on a day-to-day basis? >> no, a great question. probably very similar to how it is working for bill gates during the prime of microsoft or steve jobs at apple. it's tough and he's demanding excellence and he's punishing people. >> i met him many years ago, could not have been a nicer guy. he has that famous silly laugh. and that's the persona that he has always portrayed when on jay leno or when you see him on the rare occasion that's agrees to do interviews. but behind closed doors he's a tough nut. >> i think he would have today, and it's probably why amazon is the success that it is today. he's not willing to accept

mediocrity. you're not always meeting with the ceo, but he has created a culture of this adversarial friction. >> compared to most other companies of its size it has much quicker employee turnover than others. and it's a very frugal business the way he runs it. he gives them some perks like you can bring your dog to work, but then employees have to pay for parking, and the desks are made out of almost recycled materials. and not fancy ones. >> and we think of amazon as a technology company, and it is, but that's actually more it's retail side. if you look at walmart or read sam walton's biography that frugality is baked right in walmart. and i think besos plucked strands of different companies, and that's a trait that he took from walmart.

>> there are a whole bunch of parallels of personal life and professional life between the two of them. >> not only kind of creating great technology franchise, but you know, to what you're referring to on the personal side, steve jobs was adopted, and in my book i explored jeff besos's early history and found not only did he have a biological father who was not in his life, but that this person had a remarkable history, he was iin an unicycle troop, and i traced him down at a bike shop in phoenix, and didn't even know that his son had become a billionaire and was running this worldwide company. >> you did amazing leg work to find him, but you must have been completely shocked when you figured out that he didn't know who jeff besos was. >> the question is does this matter? how is this important to the

amazon story? besos is such an unique driven individual just like jobs and president obama or bill clinton, you wonder does the absence or disappearance of the biological father. >> he had a great adopted father. >> yeah, but somewhere in the stew of this unique individual that definitely had an impact. >> i know the biological father then wrote him, and that he wrote back. do you know whether he has any interest in meeting his biological dad? >> i actually don't know. i would assume lots go back to the steve job story where at the end of his life he didn't have much of an interest in meeting his biological father. he had a great father, and wasn't interested in making that connection. i hope it will be a happy outcome. >> as we say, he has revolutionized the way he ha we

purchase things. he has bought the "washington post." >> i think he has a better chance than anybody because number one, of course, he has the resources. he paid $250 million for the paper. and his net worth is immense and that's a relative drop in the bucket. he has got this long-term orientation, and a willingness to try a lot of new things and experiment probably gracefully sunset some businesses and start news ones. if i was the reporter at "washington post" i would feel pretty good instead of living in the age of decline we're going to try new things and experimenting and you have an own who are is willing to stay in it for the long term. >> and talking about new businesses, you mentioned that he spoke in his peach in high school in miami about his interest in space, now he has a rocket company. >> yes, surprisingly, wes' running a rocket company called

blue origin. >> how do you run all these businesses. you're talking about a rocket company and then selling shoes. >> that's one of the things that he does incredibly well, disperse his time across all these businesses. i describe it in the book as a serious of chest boards all of them in are a way that he can play the best of them. >> and he's described as being extremely bright his whole life. you interviewed him a bunch of times. the last time you interviewed him when you mentioned you were going to write a book about him, and about amazon. he wasn't that thrilled. >> i saw him two weeks ago when he was introducing, he was launching the new kindle fire tablet, and we had not really spoken before then. look, almost like every retail ceo he doesn't want to share his perspective because that's the competitive edge but he saw the inevitability because amazon is changing the way we live in this

kind of account being written. he was rooting for the book. >> even though he wasn't really interviewed for the book, he allowed--he opened a lot of doors for you. it wasn't as if this wasn't a totally unauthorized thing. he just felt it was too early to be speaking-- >> which is revealing. $75 billion in sales this year and he believes it's too early. it shows that he has walmart scale ambitions for amazon. >> how much trouble would you be in if you wrote about amazon and it doesn't end up be a best seller. >> i think it would be presumptuous that customers are interested in reading about the company. it's a challenge to get anyone to read a book, but so far i'm humbled by the response. >> we hope it is a best seller on amazon and that besos will talk more with you in the future after he reads it. the book is jeff besos and--the

everything store, jeff besos and the age of amazon. coming up on "consider this," how are online classes giving people more people a shot at education? and streets in america are covered with street art but does the graffiti have any cultural valley? we'll have that debate ahead. together unexpected voices closest to the story, invite hard-hitting debate and desenting views and always explore issues relevant to you.

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>> it is a scene of utter devastation. (vo) and follow it no matter where it leads, all the way to you. al jazeera america. take a new look at news. >> a revolution in online education is happening quickly as massive online open courses known as mooks have become increasingly popular on campus and off. the wisdom of sitting in a lecture hall as opposed to attending a virtual classroom is losing. some are strong proponents of a free online education system available to everyone. it's a revolutionary idea that not everyone is on board now. joining me now to discuss this is edward rock, professor of business law at the university of pennsylvania and director of open course initiatives. he's in our studio in philadelphia. and francisco dow, he joins us from los angeles. thank you for being with us. edward, i want to start with

you, university of pennsylvania is partnering with one of these top mooks, and it's called cosera. and they put all these courses online. here's the site. we're showing it right now, and there are 4 million people signed up on it since it started 2012. these are free classes all over the world, but you don't really get college credit. how does it work and how does it make sense? >> so, it makes sense in two ways. first, the external piece, our mission is the creation and dissemination of knowledge. the internet has made it possible in a way never possibly before to share our teaching resources with the world. at the same time, the materials we're preparing for cosera are going to revolutionize the way we teach on campus. it already has begun to do so. our calculous course which we

put on cosera is forming the backbone of some of our on campus calculous courses and changing the way we teach calculous. >> that sounds all well and good, and another great tool to teach people on campus or people who aren't paying attention who want to learn about these things and have access to it. but in the end is it practical? i guess--where do you take it? >> you mentioned that cosera courses don't give credit. at the risk of sounding cynical, people go to college to get credential and a job, most people don't go to learn. if someone guess on and takes a bunch of law courses and now i have legal knowledge but i can't an lawyer you haven't really solved the problem not for a vast majority of people.

there is a slice peopl of peoplo say i'm here to learn and go to mook. but there are a lot of problems. the completion rates are low. unstructured, you lose the face-to-face. i'm not saying that online education will never have a place or won't be art of the future. there will be people who take it. but from where i come from, we focus on silicon valley and the start up ecosystem. the enthusiasm is out of control. it feels like 1999 where they said we're going to put supermarkets out of business, and we know supermarkets didn't go out of business, web van went out of business. are people getting groceries online? yes, but supermarkets are still in business: they haven't gone anywhere. >> and i know, edward, you think the university of pennsylvania

is not going to go anywhere. it will be a hundred years from now. the question of course is whether cosera and these other start ups will be around? doesn't francisco have a point? you may have people who care about learning, but the end result is people want to go to a place like the university of pennsylvania not only to learn but to get that degree that will get them a job later on. how will these online courses, will they ever be able to fill that need? >> well, we're not putting them online to put anybody out of business. francisco's point about completion rates is exactly right. college work is hard. learning calculous on your own no matter how good the course is, learning it on your own in your bedroom is really hard. i think that the truly revolutionary potential for m mooks comes when there is partnerships between producers of high quality content like the university of pennsylvania, a

and those who know how to teach their students. one of the things we're doing is forming partnerships with we have a partnership going on now with high schools where we're using our calculous to teachca calculous in the ap curriculum. i would like to do partnerships with the community colleges for this to change the world we need to get the delivery part down, the execution part. the community colleges know better than anybody else how to teach community college students. penn doesn't know how to teach community college students. we know how to teach our students. we're doing a great job of doing that, but until the producers of content join forces with those who deliver content and figure out a way to improve the quality of content, it won't change. will that result in lowering costs of community colleges, i have no idea but i think it will increase the quality of education we're providing to

kids all across the country. >> great pr for penn and great for anyone who has access to p penn's faculty through these mooks. it's hard to allow access to all of these other people. but francisco, just go back to that point. the user point, aside from the possibility of learning and there are other things that are at different levels like the conn academy used by younger kids, and i've used it a number of times in the past, great to have that out there, but in the end how will that help the user aside from the possibility of learning about something that he or she wants to learn about? >> again, personal knowledge. i draw similarity to the library. no one can say the library is a bad thing. i read a lot of books and half of them i get from my local library. i'm supportive of that. but the library didn't replace

college. it didn't replace high school, it didn't replace rain school. putting a library in a bad neighborhood or even a good neighborhood doesn't necessarily mean all the students or people who want to learn are going there. >> so much of the hype, isn't it around the possibility of some how making superior education cheaper, but again we go back to the degree issue, if you're not getting a degree from most of these online programs how does it end up giving that end user what they needing to on to a professional life? what does it say to an employer? >> i think the hype has been phenomenally helpful. in what which? it has helped start a conversation on our campus and the campuses around the country about how to use technology to improve teaching. it has gotten people who had never thought about using

videotapes for lectures in their courses all of a sudden to think about recording lectures for their courses and then being able to share those lectures with anybody around the world. we're not going to solve single-handedly the problem of graduating more people through the workforce. we will and we already are providing important training to people all over the world. we've launched the wharton foundation series which is online, high quality free business education. we have over 300,000 people enrolled from around the world in these courses. there is a demand, it's clear, for business education around the world whether or not it comes with a degree. it is the practical value of those courses that's attracting thousands of people to enroll. in doing that i think we're doing enormous amount of valuable work, and we can't solve all the problems at once.

i think the products we're producing can now be used by all sorts of other situation instito know how to teach their students better than we do. >> let's go to "good will hunting." it's applicable to what we're talking about now. >> you dropped 150 grand for an education you could have gotten for $150 in late charges and the public library. >> yeah, but i will have a degree, and you'll be serving my kids fries on our way to the ski trip. >> funny but true in the context that we're talking about? >> i think so in most industries. there are a few industries who care less about degree. if you know how to code and you live in san francisco, they don't care much about degrees.

but if you try to get a job at general motors, fort, any main line company and you show up saying, i'm a great hacker, i learned code at home. they're not buying that, and they want to see a degree. professional degrees, law, medicine, until industry recognizes and values knowledge, but they have no way, right? >> of gauging. >> right, you know, even our parents. if i went home and said, mom, dad, i got a penn education by watching mooks online. >> that might not work. >> it's not flying. >> edward, final question, is the future a hybrid? we're seeing this with something like minerva, that bob cary is involved with, larry summers,

who have some brick and mortar component but most of the education is online. are those the hybrid of the furor even a hybrid of penn where you have some of the work online. >> mooks is a new technology. s going tit's going to be integh the infrastructure of education. it's clearly in hybrids. it's changing the way we teach on campus. in 20 years i think we'll an residential university but students to be learning in a completely different way in the same way that we're learning differently than people learned 50 years ago. >> it's all very interesting and it's a good thing to have all those great lecture online and accessible to a lot of people. it will be an interesting discussion i'm sure for years to come. edward rock, francisco dow. i appreciate you tak taking timo come tonight. how much is wikipedia worth?

we'll try to answer that question next. faultlines chases the flames as they spread throughout the west. >> there's a thick, acrid smoke smell in the air and we're following a strike team now to the top of the mountains where the fire line begins. (vo) it's a war being fought by air and on land costing millions of dollars every year. >> you will make an individual decision to build a home there, but what's the cost to the rest of us? (vo) what's going wrong with the war on wildfires and what are the true costs of putting them out?

so many money stories sound complicated. but don't worry. i'm here to take the fear out of finance. every night on my show i break down confusing financial speak and make it real. >> today's data dive clicks on wikipedia. we know the online encyclopedia iwhose entries are written by is users. wikipedia's actual value is hard to measure in part because it does not accept ads. it doesn't even have the staff to accurately track the number of people who read it. it last reported hits of 125,000 per second. that'"the new york times" report

takes $25 million a year to run it. the site has become a first stop for everyone from grade school kids to college students to the media, although we do fact check because anyone can edit an entry. it is little doubt that it is an incredible resource. you can find information on almost everything. search for kermit and you will find how kermit the frog got his name. kermit washington's nba career, and the fascinating but tragic life of kermit roosevelt, the son of teddy roosevelt. from that entry you can check on entries from mesopotamia which might let to you alexander the great and on and on. it's easy to be trapped in a wikipedia rabbit hole of information that never ends. my producer called it information eternity.

to help add more feminine touches tuesday marks the ada love lace day named for the first woman computer programmer. with all those editors you can read about events in record time. wikipedia posts news almost as fast as the associated press. coming up, banksy takes manhattan. is it art or just a hyped type of graffiti? together unexpected voices closest to the story, invite hard-hitting debate and desenting views and always explore issues relevant to you.

on august 20th,

>> is there a difference between a painting on a canvas or painting on the wall? earlier graffiti was considered

a city on decline. bankscy has been shown on walls in the city of new york. should we praise his work or ask for arrest. he is a culture ambassador for urban arts and joining us from chile, art critic for the village voice. bankscy is known for work that has sold for over $1 million, yet he sold some of his work for $60 in central park this past weekend and now putting graffiti on walls. of course what he's doing on those walls is illegal and he technically could be charged for criminal damage. is this the eternal question about graffiti:is it art or is

it vandalism. >> people are been knocking down walls and putting them up for auction and doing quite well. the last one when that happened sold for $300,000 in los angeles. obviously its art. at this point in the history of art we're in a place where it's very difficult to say something is not. and you know, it's a mode of expression. >> but you know, on the other hand, carlos, graffiti is something that a lot of neighborhoods don't welcome. we spent $25 billion over the years cleaning a lot of this up. where is the line? >> well, there's a fine line has been blurred because graffiti art is both a social reaction, a cultural reaction, but it's also--it really has become aspirational art that has

blended in mainstream media, institutions, museums galleries across the world. >> when you were younger would you ever have thought that your work would end up i in a museum and take down walls and sell them for a million dollars? >> no, these guys are really standing on the shoulders of a history that has steadily grown to merge the street and the gallegallery and commercial spa. >> when you look at what carlos is saying, new york city has a famous graffiti landmark called the five points warehouse. it's walls are covered with graffiti from artists all over the world. i was in miami where you can find a series of walls painted with bright colors of some beautiful paintings. again, artists all over the

world. as i walked through the neighborhood people were everywhere taking pictures of these incredible walls. these were owners who legally allowed graffiti to happen there, galleries have sprung up, and it's quite the scene. but is it only going to be an urban phenomenon? >> as carlos was saying it's more of an phenomenon. it's basically been the stuff of gallery and museum exhibition for some three, four decades. it's been somewhat controversial with the los angeles police department, that was put together there. i think the issue is with graffiti whose walls are there? if you're in the museum setting or gallery setting, you've been invited to go. if you haven't, you damage a

painting or a wall, the consequences are pretty clear. you're going to be basically escorted out there have and sort of tucked in the back of a paddy waggen. >> and it happened-- >> yes, the last thing i would say about it is that you know, that's a different issue as to whether graffiti is an art form. obviously graffiti is an art form. the question is what context provides how it changes that particular art form and how it changes its reception and production. >> that's the question i wanted to ask. how now that graffiti is becoming more accepted as an art form and you have people who are selling this art work for enormous amounts of money. how does that change the concept of the art former form, and doet change it in a way that makes it less valid? >> one thing that people need to understand about graffiti especially for younger kids.

it's a gateway to expression. you know, their own personal expression. first it starts with a signature. then building on that signature then the art starts to creep into their lives. >> when you started did you see it as an act of rebellion or art? >> no, i saw it as art and saw that the signature could become a masterpiece and then sculpture and then eventually become interactive media, and eventually become an award design. you know, this is potential. this is what we're talking about design, esthetic. the esteemed great american critic was fascinated with graffiti in the context of the legality. it's art, it's art that's done illegally but it's a genuine true expression of young people, and it gets dismissed because of

the legal issues. >> now it's becoming in many circumstances more legal. we're seeing winwood in miami, christian, so as it becomes mainstream, what does it do to the art form? >> well, you know, one of the things it does the same way it douse fodoes is it takes power m that--the way its used with a specific route. that's undeniable. if graffiti earth is like any kind of art or artist, there is essentially the initial gen gentrification, it's an expression than if someone is doing it on the under side of are a bridge in detroit or any other city in america.

consider your context. there is a guy in egypt who is well-known for a very good reason. he essentially manages to make very important graffiti in a very scary way to do so. the media graffiti changes when it helps someone along the food change, a set of developers. >> it's interesting, graffiti, the culture has become a very lucrative business both for real estate, municipalities and artists themselves. there is a complete self sustaining system that writers have build for themselves making the cools for painting, creating art spaces, creating a

marketplace for themselves, creating opportunities within the media space as creative directors and so on. it's out of the context of the street and legality of it, it matures and grows. clearly being an artist sculptor, scholar and this is a great example of what art can do for you and what you do in turn for others. when people ask me, well, do you regret doing all that criminal mischief? well, no, that was part of the passage i had to get to where i am as a whole person. >> that's fascinating to see the development of graffiti and how it was seen in such negative light in the 1970s and how it's seen today. carlos, christian, i really thank you for your time tonight. and the show may be over but the conversation continues on our website www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com/consider this or our twitter, facebook and

google plus pages. see you next time. . good evening everyone. welcome to al jazeera america. i'm john siegenthaler in new york. running out of time - congress is no closer to a deal to raise the debt limit or reopen the deposit. the pressure is on. plus - [ chants ] anger and frustration. texans speak out about ted cruz. we look at the divide in the senators own backyard. financial fears - a warning from wall street and a credit agency to the federal government if there's no