>> hi, i'm lisa fletcher and you're in the stream. the number of books being challenged or banned is on the rise. we look at why in the intersection of education and community values. >> our digital producer wajahat ali is here. it's hard to believe that books like "to kill a mockingbird" was on that list.

>> check out my facebook page, kite runner, where the wild things are, huk finn, and our facebook, jim has a comment, if you backed a book that offended someone, you would ban every book. serena asked. what counts as a quote unquote dangerous idea? judgment will be arbitrary and here is an interesting one. library comment, i read one day in the life of ivan denisovich. what is graphic, what is objectionable, who gets to decide? >> that's the big point is it being decided in a vacuum? how does a book become offlimits? books like captain underpants and the kite runner have been one of the most challenged books

in libraries. the kids, second half of 2012 to the same period in 2013. bans are often requested by concerned parents to restrict books that they find inappropriate. but before a book can be banned it does have to go enthuse a process. objectionable content has ranged from sexually explicit material to violence and profanity. here is how some of it breaks down. now one complaint can include multiple objections so the total number of complaints is actually around 2,000. in response students and the authors of band books are speaking up. >> people can be coarsed only if they want to be coarsed. >> doesn't have as much about their literary qualities as much as people's prejudices and fears. >> among our guest guests is a student, isaiah zukowskive, a

student who challenged the removal from their list. and carolyn mackler, author of the earth my butt and other round things. jill manning, and chris 10 johnson, the one in orange, she is a former middle school english teacher who supports age appropriate standards and on skype, lynn bruno, last year she objected to her school district's decision to remove a book from its curricula. welcome to "the stream" everyone. what seems to be the number of books hitting those banned lists and since your books are some of the most controversial what do you think the reaso reasoning bd this?

>> it's a tough one, when i found my books were banned, i was shocked. i write really frank novels about teenage experience. every time i hear about a ban, it lists, why, unsuited to age group, profanity, it is always hard to know why a book is banned, that the response is phenomenal, the book saved their life or helped them through depression or helped them see something from a different perspective. 53% more challenges, the american library association office for intellectual freedom noticed almost 500 challenges in 2012. it could -- no one knows exactly why. could it be a more conservative climate right now, could it be that the economic downturn has made more people scared? i personally think it's fear. i think it's fear of talking to our children, i think it's fear

of our children acquiring knowledge, it's fear of frank conversations. >> chris 10 is it fear or something -- kristin is it fear or something deeper than that? >> i think are it's a distinct difference, i make a point here, i oppose book banning, as a former teacher and as a parent. i oppose book banning. there is a huge variety of opinion there. this is not about book-ban banning, this is about wanting more rigorous standards in the courtroom. >> i'm going to jump in and say that what you're doing by signing a petition to have the bluest eye removed from a school district a book written by a nobel prize winning author, is book banning, that book shouldn't be in a classroom.

>> i would also say it's interfering with a teacher's, a teacher feels victimized by these acts. >> what about the discretion of a child isaiah? >> absolutely. it's an insular environment to learn exactly what your parents are saying. academic environment provides a holistic and comprehensive channel for you to discuss issues in an academic sense and that is something that a lot of parents aren't able to do and kind of advertise till things into themes and plots and i think an academic setting allows that. >> jill. >> if i may go back to the original question as to why we're seeing an increase in these challenges. we have surveys that indicate and show us some really valuable information. i think we need to pay attention to and that is since 2010 we've seen an increase in these challenges, because we have an increase across the nation in the number of students, in the high schools, that are enrolling

in ap english crass. and in -- classes and in those classes there is typically more mature content being used to teach advanced english material. you have an increased number, and the parents who are challenging mature content because they don't believe that it is age-appropriate for the high schools. and i support them in those concerns. high school is not yet college. and just because something has literary merit and may have a reading level that is apt for those particular students that are advanced and need enrichment doesn't mean it is matching developmental levels. >> jill i'm going to jump in and say the troubling parts of that is yes more books are being banned in ap classes, students that are preparing for college. these books that are banned are also more books that are being written by authors of color, by

authors that address gay and lesbian issues, that are classics that are not written by white men. >> with carolyn and jill, hang on just a second. i want to make a distinction, books that are available in the library versus books available for the classroom, is that what you're getting at jill? >> yes, instructional materials not libraries. i stand in great favor of the right to read and diverse amount of material in the libraries, public libraries, school libraries but in the classroom even the supreme court of the united states says the classroom is a unique environment and teachers do not have freedom of speech protections for curricular decisions that they make as employees of school boards. school boards have the legal and constitutional right -- >> i actually would like to jump -- >> hang on let jill finish. >> determine what is in the

classroom. >> you want to jump in go ahead. >> teachers have the expertise and the training to determine what is appropriate for the children who are sitting in front of them at that moment. and i think it's -- i think basing a ban of a book based on age is ludicrous. because children are all ages have different life experiences. they have different maturity levels and so if we are to meet the needs of every child in our classroom we need to have access to a wide variety of literature to do that. >> and what's the foundation of any of the filters we have in schools? we already have phil terse for media in schools. what is the foundation for having certain rat ratings for movies which are appropriate for 10th graders rather than fifth graders? we have these bans in place. >> as a student who took ap english last year i know i

developed a very close bond with my teacher but i think challenge of any public educators is to create an array of curriculum that meets the needs of every student because age is not a determining factor in someone's maturity. so you need to create classes that appeal or are relatable to all sorts of different students and i would argue that ap english is the most challenging course and is -- has the students that are the most mature and able to handle material and so to ban it, ban a book from an ap list curriculum seems a little bit silly. >> what about when the teacher's decision doesn't necessarily come in line with the community's standards and sensibilities? >> i think that happens a lot at least in my home district. it was actually a partisan school board member who was manipulating a lot of concerned citizens opinions and that was an irony he was forced to

resign, he was dating a minor, the very demographic he deemed too immature. >> if so how do you introduce those books responsibly. let us know what you think, using the hashtag #ajamstream. waj is going to get you in right after the break.

>> we're back discussing an increasing number of books that are either challenged or banned in schools across the country. waj, our community tweeting in

like crazy. >> this is totally in keeping with the deep current of antiintellectualism in the united states, parents should monitor their own kids' reading but shouldn't have any input on what the class is reading. facebook, charles says i oppose book bans however those that, should be very restricted or banned from schools and we have a video comment from brian. >> juft jackson said if there's one fit star in our constitutional constellation is one official, our country functions best when people have the freedom to say think write and read, school boards may not remove books from library shelves simply because they

dislike the ideas contained in those books. >> so jill before the break we were talking a lot about teemps and their ability to -- teachers and their ability to choose what is or is not appropriate for students. what role does the community have in determining what fits their sensibilities? >> i do believe pawrnts are a -- parents are a worthy operator here. i love the comments of some of the viewers that i would love this be brought back to a more intellectual discussion, where we look at the social and medical science data, we have a growing body of evidence showing associations between explicit and violent outcome and conduct in young people. i think it would be more progressive of us to revise our book selection policies to be more in keeping with the new knowledge we have of

neuroscience psychology medical science. the american academy of pediatrics has actually in one of their most recent policy statements urged schools to keep pace with modern media, an be more selective in what they are chattanooga choosing, because of the potential for harm, that it has the ability to harm in our district -- >> when you say harm -- hang on, i want to hear from jill. what kind of harm are you talking about? >> we know that explicit content, violent content is linked to a whole host of negative outcomes, whether it changes beliefs, attitudes, behaviors, aggressive behavior we have a real problem in this country with teen rape for instance. some of this material validates that, legitimizes that and it's concerning. we have young people in our school district come forward who have been victims of sexual assault, harassment, things like

that who had been traumatized and felt shamed and silenced to come forward, saying we didn't want to read these books because of the content in them. i would encourage controversial topics in the classroom but we have a duty to shield from harm. >> is your job as a parent differently than your responsibility as an author? >> jill sites out of context the american academy of pediatrics, media literacy for letting children read the books and having conversations with them and using media to help educate children and keep them out of harmful situations so to compare reading a book to children feeling -- >> it is not out of context. >> it's allowing for -- i just completely don't agree with you.

to equate reading a book to feeling violated and even feel date raped or raped, my role as an author is to tell the most honest story i can tell, to be true to the experience my experience as a teenager and tell frank stories, not what an adult would like it to be and more sanitized version. >> your role as a parent? >> my role as a parent, i don't know the children in my community, hi, how are you, see them at pickup or dropoff. i know my nine-year-old is an enormous reared he looks at all the books on the shelf, pulls them down, says mom what do you think about this one? this is a book of slavery, has violence in it, this may be difficult for you to read. we discuss whether or not it would be an appropriate book for

him. >> carolyn raises an interesting point. there is a difference between having a book in a library which she was for versus having it as curricula in the classroom. but carolyn's point is sometimes this complicated material needs an adult to talk it through with. wouldn't it be pert to have these books as part of the -- wouldn't it be better to have the books part of the classroom, give them an opportunity to ask questions and be curious about these hard subjects? >> well, that's a very interesting point and in my experience with this recent book challenge that was exactly the problem that i had as a teacher that the only censorship that occurred during the book challenge were actually the teachers them sestles who weren't --selves who weren't capable of, host of achary parents descending upon them.

they chose not to discuss and read those very sexually explicit and graphic passages with their students. i agree completely, these are being read at home alone sometimes without a parent or teacher guiding them. >> i'm going to get some community. speak going the students, nat said students miss out, and certain kids miss out on reading like students like themselves. lupe says, it gets them to think outside of the box. jay if one doesn't know bit to lead to an intelligent conversation, around kendra says, you want kids to love learning but don't want to lose your job. isaiah, i don't know if you are a kid anymore but one of the most challenged book is harry potter, and another one,

entangled three, about two penguins who raise a baby. >> originally i spoke out when there was a censorship motion in my home town that frustrated me that hofn it's a debate between the teachers and the administration or the administration and the community and the students aren't ever heard or consulted. i would encourage everyone in this discussion to talk to their students and to really try make ooh more fair -- >> what about the students that don't want to read? i protect the student's right to read. i also protect the student's right not to read and there are many students because of the peer pressure and the way they're treated by their teacher after they, what about the students we are completely disregarding that situation. [simultaneous speech] >> dr. jill with regard to the psychology of this, what about the kids, after all they are

kids. >> 17 or 18-year-olds do we really call them kids? we are talking about older teenagers. >> but nine-year-olds reading dr. underpants. >> written by a nobel prize winning author, let's not talk about four-year-olds, let's talk about a 17-year-old ready to read a nobel prize winner. >> hang on, young people should have a voice, how young are we talking? >> we should learn how to trust our kids and if we want them to grow up and be able to make critical choice he and look at and analyze complex issues we need to give them the ability to do that. and literature is a wonderful way to do that. it exposes students to choices, bad choices, victims of terrible

things awe can talk about, saying well if the character made this choice instead what would have been the outcome? so it is a safe place to take a look at some challenging issues. and giving children the opportunity to develop the skills they need to analyze and create their own voice, and make their own decisions which is after all what we are -- >> i still haven't determined at what point a child is capable of making these types of decision is as far as literature that was banned. some groups is using a constant of human nature to their advantage, turning a book ban into a boost of reading, we'll talk about that and other things next.

>> people don't express themselves they die one piece at a time. >> words mean more than what is set down on paper. it takes the human voice to infuse them with shades of deeper meaning. >> that is a clip of the retailer showing customers reading banned books. waj, that is something one group is banking on.

>> justin give them a listen. >> nonprofit organization that encourages children to read. the forbidden fruit of banned books, below average reading skills and a lot of negative peer pressure telling them that reading is just for geeks, the same teen who couldn't care less that the catcher in the rye, banned for its vulgar language and sexual scenes. >> carolyn kind of goes to the old adage all publicity is good publicity. when these are banned does that increase the interest among young people? have you seen that on some of your other book. >> the earth my butt and other big round things -- >> that was the greatest title ever. >> my four-year-old thought it was too.about it had a huge

banning in maryland about four years ago. and barnes and noble called me and said we just shipped a large shipment to your district. me who's writing the book, thinking it's horrible to have a book banned to have passages soorted out of context -- cited out of context and to have people calling it trash. it can have a bump on sales, it can have a freezing effect on creativity. >> no offense to carey lirn here -- carolyn here, what this is about is not the students but what we're talking about is [simultaneous speech] >> you're saying that censoring books is is increasing literacy rates, this is a good things. [simultaneous speech] >> do you mind if i finish just my sentence? >> what was that i'm sorry.

>> to increase literacy rates let's look at what successful states are doing. in massachusetts if they were a country, they would be ranked fourth in the world with their literacy rates. what are they doing that is so successful? well the problem is let's talk about what our students need to be successful. do they -- as teachers what is our purpose? okay that is to fulfill these achievement gaps or knowledge gaps. what are these knowledge gaps? are we hearing the workforce saying what our students really need is to be exposed to more sexually explicit material, more violence more profanity, that's not what we're hearing. critical thinking skills, problem solving skills. where are we going to find these things? let's look again at what massachusetts is doing. they are promoting classic literature. this has the rich and complex vocabulary that they need to have the skills not only in life

but in the workforce. >> i have to interrupt real quick kristin. banning a book just makes me want to read it. sean says how do we teach children the color of the rainbow if we leave out red and yellow? >> carolyn how do we balance it all? >> i think about our readers. every week i get a letter from a reader, saying thank you for your book, i finally stood up to my family, i feel good about myself. i focus on my reared ship. i write my books to be like teenagers who really need an ons book. >> thank you for all of my guests, thanks to our community, until next time, waj and i will see you online.

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