live look from chicago. a system making its way to the east coast. snow accumulations expected up to 12 inches. more throughout the morning an al jazeera america. hi, i'm lisa fletcher, and you are the stream. can residents break up with their cities? some local louisianians say the best way to solve current city their own. ♪ fed up with crime, poor schools and a loss of tax revenues.

some residents outside of rat on the rouge, louisiana want to create a new city. they hope to incorporate. they want their own school district and control of the sales tax revenue from the huge mall of louisiana that sits in what would become st. george. but opponents argue that the two are better together, and should work together to fix problems. making the area a poster child for sim situations that are playing out in america. what will it mean if st. george incorporates to create louisiana's fifth larger city. we have seen this playing out online. but tonight people on both sides are really coming together for the first time. >> they are coming together, but

as you mention, this is a very polarizing discussion. we have chris on facebook . . . and as you can imagine, on the flip side, john says . . . and from our community on twitter . . . some harsh language. >> indeed. here to discussal of this in our google plus hangover is the spokesperson to incorporate the city of st. george, also a woman opposed to the decision, and jim richardson is a professor of economics in baton rouge. he authored a report on the economic impact of the

incorporation effort. welcome everyone. lionel, why incorporate? >> there was really three central things to look at. first to create an outstanding, public school system for all children and also being able to have representation within our government that listens to the people of this area, and really just to create a better way of life for the people that live here, and go through the constitutionally protected and set-up process to do that. >> i know there have been concerns about crime in your area. a lot of the people who support this want smaller government. council member that sounds pretty reasonable. it's not like they are breaking away from anything. they are already unincorporated. >> i believe their focus was

primarily for schools. one i don't believe that separating will be the answer to that. i think working together would be the better answer, and the second thing i want to bring up is even if they were able to incorporate their city does not automatically give them a school system. they still have to go back to the legislature, which i believe will be voting the same way. >> right. but regardless of that, they have a right to do this, don't they? >> they have a right to do it, but i also believe that we must look at the economic impact that it would cost to the city of baton rouge, not only doing that, but also look at and be truthful to the people who you are trying to change over to a new city about all of the aspects of it. one, i'm almost positive that they would have to raise taxes. it has been known that they

raised taxes in the other cities that pulled away -- >> this is a good time to bring professor richardson? . the economics of this have to be fairly complex. talk about what some of the biggest hurdles would be, and what would be problematic economically for the city it leaves behind. >> i think first you have to appreciate the structure of the government. it's a city parish government. so it's not like the area where st. george is, they don't have service available around the parish. but if indeed they do incorporate, then there is an impact on the city of baton rouge in the sense that we now have a sales tax, and that's a major source of revenue for local goes. there is the sales tax, and you collect the sales tax where

people spending their money. and a lot of the retail venues are in what would be the proposed city of st. george. our analysis we looked at what happens if the corporation is successful, given the current tax structure, what happens to the beginning city of baton rouge and the remaining areas, and we estimated that the city would lose about $85 million in tax revenues because of incorporation. i think their numbers are about 81 or $82 million. >> jim, this debate is playing out on twitter right now . . . of course on the flip side kevin says . . .

and that word jeopardizing comes up a lot. lionel, the mayor said that st. george's corporation would, quote, bankrupt our future, and quote, has the potential to adversely effect public safety for the entire area. >> there are so many points that i feel like i need to get to in regards to what the council woman said and what dr. richardson said. the city of baton rouge is this is the only place in the coup try we can find that does this. goes outside of the city, captures tooks revenue, and then brings it into the city and spends it on city services. richardson's report has been paid for by the opponents of this movement from day one.

this area currently pays for all of the constitutionally funded offices. it currently also pays for essential services which will put the city of baton rouge between a 10 and $22 million shortfall. so i didn't understand how a 1 to 2% cut within the city of baton rouge on an $800 million budget is going to be the answer at the end of the day. if we do what we say we're going to do, and pay for what we're going to pay, and we do what we say -- >> can i jump in -- >> i want to know from dr. richardson, if we do what we say we're going to do, will it adversely effect the parish? because -- >> professor richardson why don't you answer the question is it going to bankrupt the parish.

>> couple of points. lionel said they are taking our money to send on city services. first most of that is sales tax money. and also people who live in baton rouge shop there as well. you have that problem. the other element you have is that there is -- right now their police protection is essentially the sheriff. the sheriff is a parrish-wide officer which all citizens pay property tax to the sheriff. so the idea that we're taking this money and putting it back here. i think the money lingers quite clearly. so i think that argument is a little bit weak and also misleading. >> council woman marcel is st. george -- council woman marcel

is st. george essentially being held hostage by baton rouge because it has a vital part of the entire area's tax base? >> no, i don't believe that at all. i would have to agree with the professor that one of the things that -- that has happened in that particular area is the infrastructure. we have spent millions and millions of dollars on the infrastructure. the argument would come from the other side of the parish, saying that their tax dollars did all of the infrastructure. it just happened to be where -- where we do our shopping, not only in baton rouge, but the surrounding areas as well. it's the largest mall in louisiana, so naturally everybody here is going to shop here. so the argument about it being your dollars. i'm trying to figure out what dollars are you really generating. >> well, this argument is heating up on line as well . . .

>> and i think the green party makes an excellent point. it's amazing to me that you have got city leaders which want to deny these residents the right to vote. and with regard to infrastructure. council woman, of the green light program, 27% of all of those funds have been paid into this area. represent. >> lionel is there a precedence for this -- >> so why are you saying that nothing has been done in that area? >> hang on, i don't want to get too inside baseball here. lionel, talk about the precedence that you see as having been set for something like this. >> sure. well, you have a city locally

that was able to incorporate, and now they have the top school district in the state. you can look at atlanta georgia, and sandy springs, georgia which started their own town, and which we modeled our government off of, having 20-some employees and being able to put the money back into an actual city, and i respect dr. richardson. he is a great economist. i would just love to know the answer to my question. if we did what we said we were going to do, if we did that and had two different city councils who sat down together and worked this out through agreements will it financially redestroy the city of bat ron rouge? >> well,

[ technical difficulties ] >> you can make it work, there's no doubt about that. is it the best way. i think you'll have more than you think you have. i think there will be a chance to redue the government entirely in terms of having the perish really be a parish government. and have the municipalities with fewer responsibilities. i think in the end both sides -- no, you can certainly avoid bankrupting the city. if you look at the two cities, st. george may want to be independent because of say the school system only. we are going to be interdependent, because most of the jobs are in the city of baton rouge, so you have to have the two working together.

>> i'm going to put you on the pause for just a second professor, because we have to hit a break. but when we come back, i want to talk about when these things work and when they go south. we'll talk about other cities that have made similar moves, plus what would you do if you were unhappy with your kids' schools? if it were in your power would >> no doubt about it, innovation changes our lives. opening doors ... opening possibilities. taking the impossible from lab ... to life. on techknow, our scientists bring you a sneak-peak of the future, and take you behind the scenes at our evolving world. techknow - ideas, invention, life. on al jazeera america

>> the other kids have a good opportunity to go to a better school. >> welcome back. we're talking about one local community in louisiana that is trying to incorporate. before the break we asked what happens when the break-up goes south, and i mean this is a total failure, they try to incorporate, and it doesn't work, they don't have the infrastructure for setting up government.

what happens when these attempts fail? >> i think -- and this situation it's kind of unique. if something goes bad, the odds are -- at it may happen to baton rouge. they should have the tax money based on what they are collecting right now. that should not be an issue to them. the issue will be what happens in the city of baton rouge. so that's the element you have to worry about. the school district is a totally different set of rules, a different government system entirely. it will be an independent school system. that will be a second step. that will be much more complicated to do, i think, particularly we don't really know what the lines of that school district will be, because we have heard -- at least i have heard two or three different elements to what that school boundary will look like -- >> [ inaudible ] the school boundaries.

the school boundaries have been drawn. and that would simply be -- and actually a bill has already been passed to form a district. was blocked by a partisan group within the legislature to allow it to be funded. and during that time those legislatures in a mocking way said if you want a new school system, become a new system -- >> the community is chiming in [ overlapping speakers ] >> st. george? >> go ahead. i'm going to get some community in, marcel and come to you in a second, but we asked our community what are the drawbacks of living in an area that is unincorporated . . . on the flip side . . . and then we have a member from listen.

>> i grew up in baton rouge and graduated from a public school there. public schools in louisiana have major problems. but the break away only exacerbates them. the whole proposal is white flight and i'm embarrassed that the area i grew up is trying to withhold money rather than fix these problems. i invite the people of st. george to try to fix these problems, not fight them. >> council woman talk to us about zach's comment. >> i totally agree with zach, to pull out of the schools here would definitely devastate the school system here. we already have some issues. my comments would be who makes this stronger? and he brings up all the time -- lionel -- brings up about the other school districts that have pulled out and the

best schools. what he is not saying is they have the highest taxes as well on people that live there, on property taxes. so it's easy to say what they have, but they are putting their money up for it. so i would have to agree with zach, it would devastate not only the school system's budget, but of course east baton rouge parish as we know it. and again, we have a different type of government, we have a parish government. i don't particularly like the city parish government, but that's what we have, and that's how we're functioning. >> i have got to address what she said. to begin with, they talk in these brood terms it's going to devastate the city of baton rouge and the school system. how is it going to devastate the school system? the school system will actually get more money through the [ inaudible ]. we're talking about take back a school system that is probably

one of the worst in the country. you have a failed school system where six out of ten children go to a d or f school and 60% are not at grade level -- >> the school system are making real strides -- >> making strides! they are making strides because the state had to come in and take over a lot of schools that were disgustingly failing. >> and let me just say most of those schools are in my district, that they have taken over. and if i line those up with the public school system, the public school system is doing a better job at turning the schools around in the state -- >> council woman, i think -- lienel and his -- his counterparts raise a good point which is the schools have -- it's not that they have been underperforming for years. they have been underperforming for a decade or more.

and at what point are parents allowed to take things into their own hands and say this isn't working? nothing is changing -- >> at no point apparently. >> wouldn't you want to be able to take the power back and say if you aren't going to do it, we want to try to make this better for our kids -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> council woman -- >> to try to see what they could do to make the school better instead of pulling them apart. and i really -- and let me make one other point and then i'll let you talk. >> okay. >> just because you get a school -- a district -- a city -- st. george city is not going to guarantee your school's system. the legislator may not give it to you still. so what then? >> i don't believe they will

deny the fifth larger city in state a school system. and it is written in the constitution of how they will fund the school system. lawn. ed an investigation for a cheating system. you have a failed school system that went up a couple of points after the state had to take away ten to 15 of your worst-performing schools -- >> i think that's really -- >> hang on community. >> yeah, eric says . . .

>> all right. so coming up, what will it take for st. lougeorge to pull this off? and what does it mean for other unincorporated areas across the >

♪ welcome back, we're talking about a community just outside of baton rouge, louisiana that is looking to become its own city. lionel, obviously this movement is not without opposition. what is needed to get from where you are now to the ballot box? >> we knew this wasn't going to be without opposition, any time you stand up, and you are fighting the status quo, you are going to get an immense amount of opposition. this is a huge task. we have to get 25% of the registered voters to sign a petition to budget this on a ballot.

all we're asking for is that people be given their constitutionally given right to be put on this ballot. what we're asking for is probably one of the most american things that you could ever come up with. this is a people who are petitioning their government to put a measure on a ballot and vote on it. and their voice has been silenced for a long time by a government that is unwilling or incapable of meeting their needs, and they have a school system that is unwilling to unable to meet the needs of their children. all we're asking is that we be given the right to vote on it and settle it at the polls. >> i think this is a special situation. i would be surprised if this were something that catches fire across the country, and i think to add to what lionel said, though, what they do in that

area has an impact on other parts of the parish. so it's -- it's they get to vote, but other people will be effected by it perhaps adversely, and that's why people questioning it are saying is there not another way to do this? i think that's the big point there, that people of st. george get to vote on something, that affects other people who live right across the street. so i think that's ament complicating factor. it's not a simple fact of okay, this affects the people in st. george only. it affects the people throughout the parish by what they do and perhaps negatively so. >> waj the whole reason they decided to go down this road is they wanted to start their own

school district. >> right. kevin just tweeted in about that . . . >> all right. lionel, i'm going to give you the last word. we have about 30 seconds. >> sure. we appreciate being on here. and i appreciate the council woman and dr. ridchardson. but this is just democracy in action. this is about a government that is incapable or unwilling to meet their needs, and a school system that unwilling or incapable to meet the needs of their children. we're just asking that the people be allowed to have a vote. >> all right. thanks for a terrific discussion. until next type, waj and i will

see you online. ♪ check >> chaos continues in syria. on the diplomatic front it's not better as iran told it's not welcome at peace talks. >> you're watching al jazeera live from doha. also coming up anti-government protesters and police battle on the streets of ukraine's capital for the second night in a row. >> africa has its first female head of state. can she stop the violence? >> and a new study that