the prize if more than one does it. >> that's it for this edition of al jazeera america. i'm thomas drayton. new york. news at the top of every hour. thanks for watching.

>>... the list i had was 2005 to 2006. it's obtained through an industry source, which showed the security around. the no fly list is a joke. people were routinely allowed to

travel to the united states on the no-fly list. the reality is the list is something to comfort the public, to make us feel better. it's a meaningless list. >> marty, is this ineffective, and meaningless. >> no, not at all. it works. >> it's a large list. >> how do you know it works? >> i'm involved in it for a significant amount of my career. i'm directly involved for a portion of time at the end of my career at the center. but the comment about heads of states and officials from states, there have been heads of states on the list. senior government officials on the list. these are states that sponsor and support terrorism that's why they are on there. >> how would anyone know if this is effective:

speaking of letting the terrorist go, the nigeria underworld bomber was not on the list. the pakistani american failed and was not on the list. a lot of us are wondering those two, how did they not get on the list. >> it's not a product of the process, not being robust enough. it is a fools errand. if someone is - is suspected of a crime, law enforcement should investigate that person. if the law enforcement finds evidence, they should be charged with a crime. hour safety is not served and our rights are imperilled. >> what resource does someone

have if they are put on the list. >> well, in dr ibrahim's case it took eight years and a court battle with the united states department of justice for her to get recourse. the cost tells you that you can file a form and somehow get off the list but the bottom line is the government gives you no information about actions that they take if you file a claim form, the trip form. it's an opaque process. and dr ibrahim is the first person who has success fully challenged this list in court, which tells you how effective the redress is given the list has been around since 9/11. will ibrahim's case make a difference? you'll meet a student stranded outside the u.s., and then discovers he was placed on this list. you'll hear his story when we come back.

peace, and this is a vibrant community of people from all over the globe who want to be so after finishing my masters program, my brothers and my father came down to visit my graduation, and we took a trip. finally we were trying to print out our boarding ticket. me and my father were both stuck and they told us that there's nothing they can do. it took 30 minutes. they were on the phone and didn't know what was going on. we are basically stuck there and told us we would have to go to the u.s. embassy. we were able to fly back. me and my dad had to go to the u.s. embassy. we took a taxi.

we thought it was a simply mistakes, something is going on. we'd be on the next flight. >> i have to say, you discovered that you were put on the list. how long were you in costa rica, and how did you get back to the u.s. you couldn't fly. i was in coasta reika studying. >> how long did it take you to get home after you discovered you were on the no-fly list?" >> two days. >> you walked across the border. >> my dad flew back. i fully to mexico, to tijuana and walk across the border. >> despite kevin's story, the no fly list is important. the wes tweeted in:

>> since you were called out, i want to ask you a question between the balance of liberty and security. >> fbi will say we have limited resources and personnel. there are national security threats, should some liberties be compromised for the great are good. generally we are a little too willing to trade the liberty of others for what we perceive to be in our safety interest. the situation here is that the no fly list has gross and despicable consequences. people placed on the lists can also never be charged with crimes. a former air force veteran tried to fly home to visit his mother.

he was prevented from doing so. before he was allowed to fly. even though he had sent the fbi a copy of his itinerary saying if they wanted to search him, they were more than happy to, they visited his terminally ill mother to search for prohibited drugs. when he flew home, he corrected signatures, when he tried to fly back they wouldn't let him. we sent the fbi a letter saying this is when he's going to fly, it you'd like to search him extra go ahead. instead he had a take a bus to mexico, a flight to south america, before getting back to his family. those stories illuminate that the fly list is not about the safety of aeroplanes, it's a means by which the fbi extracts leverage and puts people like kevin and others that are abroad in positions that allow them to

extract information from folks by having them forego rights to attorneys. >> i take exception with that. the fbi, they have a legal counsel section that looks carefully at the issues with individuals that are on there. it's a delicate balance between protecting the american public from the american attack, and at the same time protecting the civil liberties and privacy that have arrived there. your comment that people go on, that they have no way of getting lost. there's a redress system. it takes time, but there is a redress system. the government is not going to acknowledge that you are on the list. you'll eventually go off. i'll also say that, you know,

earlier you had commented that you had problems with t.s.a. we don't want to confuse, compare issues with the process at the airports with the watch list, those are two different things. there's a watch list. that's not part of the watch list. >> elizabeth, what was it about ms abraham's case that made it successful where others have not been. >> i think part of it was persistence. but for finding a law firm willing to take on the case which was enormously expensive and took a huge amount of time and effort and was fought strenuously by the united states government, even though our client was innocent and the united states government admitted she is not a threat to national security, but for dr ibrahim finding the firm, she could still be on the lists, and still have the stigma of being

accused of having some relationship to terrorism. that was a big part of it. it's important to note that the government did fight the case for eight years. they concede she's not a threat to national security. >> do you still not know why she was on the list? >> that's correct. we do not know why she was on a government watch list. there is more information about the process by which she was included on terrorist watch lists that is under seal through the judge's ruling, and that is also another important point in this. even though the government conceded that dr ibrahim is not a threat. the government is trying to cover up its makes and errors with respect to these lists, and keep the secret from the public who is funding all this. the government had the opportunity to come in and explain what it is doing with the lists, and justify how this

is protecting everyone. the government did not do that. they put on know evidence that these lists have saved one american life for protected any lives. >> we reached out it the fbi andment department of homeland security or declined to appear on the program. we received a statement clarifying a role saying: >> we just got a tweet in from alfred: >> what changes may be afoot in the wait of ms ibrahim's ground breaking face.

if the u.s. can't do without a no-fly list. what does a better version look like. you

. >> when i went to the airport i went to get my ticket at the booth. they took me to a ticket agent. next thing you know there's patrol officers walking in. i didn't know what was going on. i knew something was wrong. and i asked the ticket agent am i on a no fly list. she tells me yes. you don't know the value of flying until you are on a black list. i cannot travel for fun. my friend can go, i can't. >> we are discussing why the government makes it nearly impossible for innocent people wrongfully put on the top secret no fly list to be removed from it. a ground breaking case that ordered the first person ever be removed from the list may open doors. elizabeth, the government is fighting to keep the secrets of

your client's judgment. what do you think the likelihood is that this will set a precedent? >> i think it is very likely. the case set two precedence in the night circuit court of appeals. assuming there's another, there'll be a third ground-breaking decision. this hopefully will pave the way for other people to contest their placement on the list and force the government to take a hard look at what it's doing, depriving its citizens of fundamental rights. how does the precedence change. >> the no fly list is crucial to our safety, and so by ordering the removal of someone from a no-fly list, that's an example of our judge in virginia and organ can look to that are

hearing the no fly list cases, you can hear there is a role of unlawful practices. >> does it back it up or does the position change when it's in court? >> our position in court is there is no process where they can get off a fly list. what we are arguing for in court is that there needs to be a process by which if the government places someone on a no fly list in perpetuaty there needs to be a process by which the process can occur, this is the first time in american history that the american government is preventing american citizens from returning home. you don't think there's any

circumstance from preventing a u.s. citizen from returning. obviously it's controversial, is there a better version, if so, what will it look like. >> the list is going to stay. almost daily you see the effect of it. s process. that needs to be improved upon. it is likely, i agree with the government stance that they don't acknowledge that you are on the list, you are taken off. there's no confirmation of that. it needs to be improved. i'll say this also: about 1% of the people that apply for redress to be taken off. 1% are on it. the other 99% are on the list because there's delays at the airport. but they are not. >> thank you to all our guests. till next time you will find us

online at aljazeera.com/thestream. >> time to talk piece in syria. the most significant effort yet to find a solution to the conflict is about to begin. this is the world news from al jazeera. also ahead - an anti-government protestor killed in ukraine as police break down barricades. a senior pro-government protest leader shot and wounded as a state of emergency takes effect. in the dark a lawyer who campaigned against government corruption in c