>> hi, i'm lisa fletcher, and you're in "the stream." do comic book characters have the power to influence society? you might be surprised. our digital producer, rajahad ali is here, giving us all of your feedback, and raj, you don't have to be sold on comic books to be intrigued tonight. >> comic books are not just for

kids anymore. i'm an avid reader of comic books, i'm grown, 33, i'm married, and my wife tolerates it. and we asked the community, what's the relation to comic books, and we got this great one: >> so what super hero would you be? >> i want to say, i would be

batman, but i'm getting older and i would probably be the toad. >> the green --erro et.ette. >> comics, undeniably, part of our culture, chan america, batman, they stepped in in the 1930s, but have since grown into the industry. moving adaptations like ex-men. a loyal community showed up in droves across the nation, like comi-con. gender stereotypes were common, but today, characters like ms. marvel are touting social inequality and intervention and the environment. should hollywood be taking note? joining us are the brains behind this year's comics, max brooks,

best-selling author of world series z and hell fighters, which is the first puerto rico regiment to serve, and illustrator for ms. marvel, the first muslim with a comic book. max, there's a stereotype. and good chance people are thinking kids and nerd, and who are the biggest consumers of comic books? >> i think its important to note that many stereotypes are based in fact, but they don't apply it all members of a group. when i started going to comic book conventions in the 80s, everybody looked like kevin smith. and i would say now gender wise, it's pretty equal. i think there's a much greater variety of sexual orientations, and different ethnicities. and i think comi-con has become a microcosm of the american

populous. >> i spoke to professors online who teach classes through the lens of comic books, and they talk about government overreach and income inequality and the environment using these characters, and talk about the influence that these have in terms of influencing american discourse. >> i think comics are really part of -- they reflect back to us the issues that they're concerned about in the time that they're written. i think you can look at seminole works like v for vendetta. and look at revolutions here around the world and at home. and you can look at the sandman addressing lgbt, back in the 1980s when nobody else was talking about it. so comics have been a medium that in a sense is uniquely

effective of what we're concerned about in the society. and they are aspirations of not only the way that the world is, but the way that it could be. and that's unique. >> we asked, can social and political themes be brought up in comics? burns says that they can be if done right and not pandering. the 70s and 80s were a great time for messages, and speaking of v for vendetta: if max, you never hid from politics either. world series z, great for bringing socially relevant themes to pop culture, and what is it about this space, this

medium, that laws not only for counter cultures, but marginalized communities to thrive? >> well, i think that when you are using say non-white characters, or culturally fringed characters, you're circumventing the economics of hollywood. because hollywood says, who am i going to cast for this, because the bulk of a list stars are caucasian. you could have a character that doesn't have an actor in hollywood. and you have an unlimited special effects budget and an unlimited political agenda, and you're not constrained by the studio. that's why comics is a great means of getting a message out there. >> who do you think some of the most controversial comic book characters have been? >> i think batman.

the dark knight returns was incredibly controversial. the president really was ronald reagan, and there really was a cold war. and the sense that the government has broken down, and we must take to the streets and defending ourselves, and you could take that he is defending bernie gaetz. >> so the fourth alliteration of miss marvel, she's a pakistani american, and the first muslim to headline in comics, and are you suspecting a pushback when she debuts. >> i think anytime that you debut something new, there's the potential for pushbacks, but i've been overwhelmed by the response from fans since the announce many. there are already fans online, and t-shirts, and hash tags, and it has been really incredible. and this says to me that this is a character whose time has come, and that people do want to see characters out there that

reflect the reality of a changing america, where there are more people from different background, you know, the year that my daughter was born was the first year that the majority of babies born in the united states were non-white. and again, this is an instance for comics are reflecting that society as a whole is changing. >> do you expect her to be controversial, raj? >> i think it's already controversial, but it's a controversy in a good sense. look at the international sensation. miss marvel, we learned about it, and i'm going to buy it tomorrow. and speaking of that, we have on

facebook:. >> but that's changing. with more nuanced characters in the mix like minutes ago marvel, the game is changing. up next, you're going to meet a former cd comic and he's one of the biggest publishers, and he says that the industry may not be as committed to diversity as everyone thinks it's.

>> welcome back, we're looking at the influence that the comic book industry has on social issues, and we're joined by robert wemberly, the graphic artist. and welcome to the show. >> what's happening?

>> are comics actually leading the way when it comes to minority representations in diversity? >> i wouldn't say that comics are leading the way. i think that comics in some ways appear to be further along than other media. just because it's a diy medium. and anyone can pick it up, and anyone can do what they want to do with it. whereas i'm sure that there's a lot of staff and people working behind the scenes, and it's a lot more integrated behind the scenes than comics. >> max, hell fighter comes out in april, but it took you 15 years to get it to this point, and why did it take so long. >> initially, i wrote it as a screenplay, and big surprise, nobody wanted to do it. and here's a chance to tell what i consider a very interesting story. and i didn't have to worry about a budget or a studio system.

and so i've been working on this with the amazing artist, keenan white for three years now. >> for those who don't know about it, tell us about it. >> it's a true story of a unit of african-american soldiers in the first world war that were set up to fail by the u.s. government. the last thing they wanted was a unit of black heroes marching home in triumph, showing the rest of america what they were capable of, so the u.s. army essentially went out to sabotage them, and put all of these restrictions on them, and gave them to the french as a throw away. so they fought with the french, and became one of the most decorated combat units, black or white in the u.s. army. >> do you think that it's more diverse or is the mainstream audience noticing what has existed all along? >> i think particularly when it

comes to gender, there has been a lot of pushback from female fans, and as max said, they make up half of the audience, and half of the population at convention, but in some ways comics have been lagging hand in the presentation of women themselves. so i think there's an ongoing conversation, and i think there have been improvements, but i think any time you have a new character, particularly a female character or a minority character headlining a book, it's always something of a gambit. and it's really hard to predict how the market will respond. whether people will buy t. or if they just want the next issue of wolverine. >> the community -- go ahead, max, you wanted to chime in. >> we can all be nuanced here

and say that there's no such thing as women readers. they're all different individuals with different points of view. hillary clinton is a woman and so is sarah palin. so i don't think when we talk about how women readers will respond to something, it's going to come down to individuals. i'm thinking about wonder woman when jay michaelstrasinski put her in pants. some liked it, and some said i liked her outfit, why are you putting her in pants? we can be nuanced enough. >> our community i is a bit sceptical:

you have miss marvel dropping really soon, and what is what you feel for creating the avatar of p.. perfection, when they don't get the space, and when the minority community said nope, thank you didn't make them perfect. >> you have it right. whenever you see a minority character in film or comic, they carry an adaptation because there are so few examples of people from that particular group in that culture, they carry everybody's expectations with them. and everybody wants their viewpoint displayed. and if you try to pander to everybody, what you end up with is a mess.

so the challenge is to create a truly nuanced human being and do justice to that character, rather than creating a sort of cardboard cutout that is a perfect token representation, or pandering to the worst stereotypes that people have. so it's a fine line, and there's an extra burden there. >> ron, do you think that ethnic and social diversity is reflected in the staff as they used to be in companies? >> that's what i was going to say, that tokenism, and the marginalized representation of those characters in their world comes from there being a lack of diversity in the staff of comic book companies. >> talk about behind the scenes of the comic book companies. >> well, at dc comics, for a while, there were two people on staff that i knew that were people of color, and then a

third came on. i was dealing with the editor who was a person of color for a while, and a white editor afterwards, but i felt all the time, and vertigo is great because they had two women at the time and karen berger was heading it up, so they were making some way in that sector, but when i would talk to them about issues, i was kind of aware, painfully, that i was probably the first person of color to bring those things up to them. like how do you edit a story when you don't have any experience with people of color, and you don't have any people of color working at your organization? >> max, it's a chicken and egg question. do the readers dictate what's popular and then hollywood follows, or does hollywood make a bold move and people get onboard? >> sometimes hollywood does make a bold move. like making sam jackson mick

fury. initially, he was white. and blade, officially he was not wesley snipes. but you have a of healthier indy comic scene, and you can start from the ground up u one of my favorites is called super indian, and that takes place in a modern native american community. and as a white guy, that's a window into a world for me, and i love that. and i don't think you would have seen that in hollywood because the first question is naturally going to be, what is this going to cost?

ronald, do minority super heroes need minority behind them to get it right? >> i wouldn't phrase it as need, but the institution needs to change in order for there to be a broadening of that recommendation, and a non-exploited representation. these characters also, i think, for a people of color to be part of that conversation, it will allow for the whole idea of power and how power is used by super hero ideas to be explored. i think for people of color, this force to force people to do what you feel is right, maybe that's not part of the experience for people of color. maybe it's a different story. i've always related to spiderman because he's a dude that i didn't see his face, so i could project on spiderman, and second of all, he was a guy trying to

make ends meet. like he sewed his own costume, and all of his enemies were stronger than him, and he was always dealing with authority. not to project my experience as a black man, but most super heroes, i can't relate to that. even if i had the power, i think my experience would audit what i would use were that power, and i hope so. >> max, quickly, before we hit the break, do you think that white content creators have more freedom when it comes to bringing in diversity issues because they're not necessarily being looked at as gender driven? >> it all depends on who they're working for. when you're dealing with a big company like marvel and dc, you have a strict agenda, and that will determine what you write, whereas an indy company like avatar, can you do what you want. so i don't think it's as much

about race as economics. >> when we come back. >> that's one thing about indy comics. >> our guests will talk about where comics are headed and what inspired each of them along the way. stick around.

>> welcome back, before the break, we promised that we would talk about where comics are headed. but we want to take it back for a second. all of our guests, you grew up on comic books and you're making part of history. and i want to ask each of you who and who inspired you. willow, we'll start with you. >> the first comic i ever read was an anti-smoking psa booklet that i got in class when i was

ten years old and it must have worked because i never took up smoking but seeing wolverine and storm kicking butt on the pages of this book, it inspired me and it has been downhill ever since. >> max, what inspired you? >> i think it was art speigel man's mouse, and it was profound in teaching me about the holocaust. >> probably the first comic i saw was at a bathroom in a christian youth group. and it was a christian tract. it scared me and it was powerful but i don't think that i decided to get into comics until i picked up some of the 90s independent comics, like thb and slow jams, and mowgli, the back issues. >> from gays so jews to latinos, minority voices have not been

predominant: and speaking about reality, we just got this question for willow. what would muslim miss marvel have done on 9-1-1? >> well, she was four years old, so probably not a lot. when you talk about the burden of representation, this is exactly what i'm talking about. the idea that a young, teenage muslim girl from jersey city, is somehow expected at the age of 4 to represent 1 billion people at 9-1-1 and that doesn't stop us from projecting that onto other people. >> let me make a point here. i think we also need to

understand that just because someone is a minority writer from a certain ethnic group doesn't mean that they can stand and speak for every person in their group. that can be racist too, when you say there's something called the black community. there are black people from different groups and backgrounds, muslims, christians, and latinos, and what does latino mean. it gets complexed and nuanced and we have to keep that in mind. >> and there has to be responsibility, writing about african-american issues. >> i don't choose to write about black experience because to me that is an experience this i'm creating for like white readership. i'm expressing my experience, but i think the black community maybe doesn't exist as an actual

cohesive element. but it does exist as an other. it exists to something that is perceived from the outside. so for instance, when someone says to me like obama gets elected and aren't you happy we have gotten so far? i'm like well, obama is a very particular type of black man. and his success doesn't necessarily mean the same to a kid living in brownsville who never had a great education and never had the legacy of a lot of things happening to him. but however, for a lot of my liberal white friends, of course, we have a black president, and it's something to be proud of and i think they do, actually. but i don't know, i see what you're saying, but i think it's very nuanced. >> willow, minority representations don't necessarily mean something good for the minorities being represented. >> yeah, i think as we were saying, it's impossible to

portray the entire spectrum of experience of a group through the lens of one character, and nor should one try. but we end up with something that makes no sense. what ron said is it exactly right. you've tried to accurately tried to portray the experience of an individual within that group. so it's an evolving conversation, and it's good that we're having discussions like this. this is not something that we have gotten right. and it's not something that is going to be solved tomorrow. so it's an ongoing thing. >> so we have about 30 seconds left. max, what do you hope is inspiring the comics of the future? >> i think my hope for the future is when we talk about diversity, we're moving past white and non-white and talking about the diversity within each group, and hopefully we can be so diverse that we can just write about individuals and stop

trying to make them all ambassadors for their grouch. >> thank you to all of our guests for a great discussion, and raj and i will see you online. >> welcome to aljazeera america. i'm john seigenthaler in new york. military scandal in the army, the airforce, and the navy. new allegations of cheating and stealing. food stamps cut billions of dollars. and what the new farm bill will mean for hungry families. wicked weather. millions brace for another dangerous storm, and this time snow and ice could be a problem, and plus. >> they think i'm not good, but after that -- >> a nye