stranger to success. he has 129 blue ribbons for best in show. i'm del walters in new york. thanks for watching. "the stream" is next. >> hi, i'm lisa fletcher, and you're in "the stream." is it time to reset the conversation about motherhood and success? we ask if feminism and science and pop culture have led women astray. you're digital producer, rang raj is here, to bring your feedback tonight.

and it is always surprising to me, the topics that we put out there that get these tonight. >> we're inundated with responses, not just from millennial moms, from women of all ages, women who have decided not to have children and women who are millennials and older. and she gives us the modern mother: and that means hippy.

today a daily standard that women have to face that seems to be recurring in the community. >> and a voice that seems to be there is men. as the ambassador of all men, the pressure is on, raj. nearly one in five women haven't had children by the time their fertile years have passed. and for those who did want to be mothers, messages about fertility may set them up to be let down. >> because there's this expectation that we can get pregnant when we want to get pregnant and we can do it all. be mothers and have our careers, and have families too. there's a disappointment that comes along with that. >> when you decide you want to do it, and you can't, it's intense. >> you start to doubt your choices in life, like should i have not waited so long?

>> because it is what it is, and there's no going back. >> as older women try to fight the biological clock, the average age of first time moms is still young, 25, but while that remains fairly scant constant, the pressures have increased from all sides. having kids too early or late and stress that having it all is more facade than fact. so is it time to hit the reset button on the conversation? would squaring up motherhood be successful and independent women? in overnew book, tanya wrote her book, and michelle horton, from her site, early mama.com. michelle had a baby at age 22, and was inspired to write about her experiences of the reality woman.

and anyone independent journalist who has decided not to have children, and feels the societal pressures because of her choices. so thank you for being here, and motherhood, you're judged 23 you're just a mom, and you're judged if you juggle motherhood with a full-time career, and you're judged if you don't have kids. how did women get into such a predicament, we're darned if we do and darned if we don't. >> part of the problem is, in the 70s, women still had to fit into a world that was constructed largely by and for men's needs and men's schedules, so women face the struggle of having to choose between motherhood and career, and i personally feel that's one of the greatest injections that women still hav

-- injustices that women still have to make that choice. women were intrinsically designed, whether they became mothers or not, and what was a great benefit for my generation and the generations after, we could define ourselves with things other than being mothers. but have we done ourselves a disservice by not being able to make decisions with complete information? even today, with all of the biological clock stories holding on for decades, there are still so many conflicting stories out there about motherhood and when we can and can't do it. >> and how have the fantasies affected how people in general view motherhood in america? >> one of the fantasies is we can delay motherhood until we're ready, and if we're not able to have a pregnancy, science will help us. that was the message that

happened during my childhood. the first successful ivs pregnancy happened in 1978. and women felt their reproductive cells were more within their control, but what we didn't realize was that with all of our successes in the workplace, and with advances in healthcare, which unabled us to take better care of ourselves, our eggs were not following, and now, when i look at friends in their 30s, it seems thak too young to have a child. and the discourse has to be reset. >> michelle. 30, 40 years ago, it was normal or even expected that women would have a child in their early 20s, and now you fast forward to 2014, and it can be found upon, and you can be judged.

you had a baby when you were 22. talk about what that was like for you in terms of the societal pressures and stereotypes that you felt. >> first of all, i was living in new york city, where it's extraordinarily unusual to have a kid in your 20s, especially your early 20s, right out of college. i was in -- i had just graduated from college, and i was interning at these prestigious magazines and i was excited about the ambitious path that i was on, if for me, in my early 20s, the narrative that i knew, it used to be normal to have kids in your early 20s, but an educated, smart, young woman, it will cost you to have kids when you're young, so for me, i felt that everything that i had worked toward, i could never accomplish what i wanted to accomplish.

as if i was going to be stunted developmentally, and i couldn't make the kind of money he wanted to make, and i felt as if my life was ending at this point. and that's what i think a lot of young women feel. if they veer off the typical narrative of a young, 20 something woman, your life kind of goes in a direction that's -- you're doomed for a cycle of poverty high. and on the flip side of that, carolina, you are an educated smart woman who chose not to have children, and in that set has it's own set of stereotypes. >> yes, exactly. though women have been doing all of these fantastic things in the last half century, there are these centuries-old expectations of women, if you're going to get married, you are going to have a kid. i got married at the able of 25, which is generally considered a little bit of a young age to get married. and i've now been married for 17

years, and have never had children. so the pressure from people i meet and extended family members has been this question of why. they look at you either with sadness because you might be barren or might have a medical condition, or there's something psychologically wrong with you, because why wouldn't you want to have a child if you're i a healthy woman in a healthy marriage. having children is not something that i want to do. i have lots of nieces and nephews that i adore, and friend's kids that i hang out w. and i'm certainly not against children, but it's not something that my husband and i wanted to do for ourselves. it still raises a lot of questions in people, and especially for women. people don't ask my husband how he feels about not having kids. they assume that he doesn't and they're okay with that decision because he's a man. >> carolene a. speaking of the

double standards: and tannia i want to go to you with this. let's talk about the stereotype that exists, and also the double standard that keeps coming up to for women to have it all. also have the family and the career, and how does that affect today? >> for most women, they're too busy doing it all to think about having it all. so i feel like it's a term, a phrase that's used so much to describe women and our choices, and i would like to take that phrase and throw it out, so we can talk about things other than

having it all. so when it comes to balance, we talk about work life balance so much, but really, true balance is unattainable and we hope to achieve our moments of balance, and we have to learn to do that. and we have to look at the issues globally. because we live in america, but there are many countries where they have fantasticked out to do things in a more benevolent way and there are others where it's more harsh. so we need to look at a global perspective and look at models that work. we know in america, we have a system that's inherently unfair. when it comes to women in general, and women who delay motherhood and have to fertility treatments, et cetera. carolina made a conscience decision not to have kids and when you look at the sticks, the statistics shows that the number of childless women has doubled

in a generation, and now there are nearly one in five who don't have a years. >> we have to hit a break, and that's important, women not adjourning other women for their choices. how do you bust the myths of motherhood, and are women complicating their own message of where they should be and how they should get there. do you want to interact more with raj and me on "the stream"? check it out. >> tv is no longer the only way for a second screen app. if you want to be oner our guests, tell us, get exclusive content and interact with other users at the same time. you can be our third cohost. record video comments, and we'll feature them on-air. use the app and driver discussions on tv.

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i'm married to my husbands pete for two or three years. we had our boys in 2000 and 2001. and i had a difficult pregnancy both times. the doctor suggested that is would be best for my health not to go through another pregnancy. we are talking about having

everything being a disservice to women. wouldn't it be a healthy message to say whatever you chooks there has to be something to give up. and embrace the need that something has to give, rather than setting up unrealistic ideals that women can juggle 20 things at once, dance back in high heels and make it work? >> so much of the problems is we are pitching ourselves against the judgment and expectations of others. if we strip around the guilt of choosing between motherhood and gear, we can build a fairer society. we can talk in generalisations, but every woman is different and makes choices based on a vision she holds true for herself. we can look at the statistics and when we see the numbers of childless women, the truth is

50% of those women chose not to have children. there are people who are not having children by choice and circumstance. there are the mijority of women, who are mothers, who work. they are not making a choice between being a stay at home mum or career. a lot of women are trying to figure out how to juggle the role. how do we make it fair. some of the ways are buy instituting guaranteed parental leave, having widespread insurance coverage, and fertility treatment. one thing that i found when i did research was only 15 states mandate a form of coverage for fertility treatment. >> i see you nodding your head. >> i think it's interesting the point tania brings up. we are the - you know, talking about the whole idea of having everything, and what system can

we create to support women in their roles as professionals and mothers. the u.s. is the only industrialized nation without a government-mandated paid parental leave. i have cousins that have six months of paid parental leave. anyone with a baby will tell you going back to work after two or three weeks is excruciating. it goes beyond inspection, what can the government do, what can the legislators do. they talk about abortions and what can and can't be done, but are not supporting mother when they try to have the children. >> there are things that the government can do to augment and improve the lives of working mums, women and kids. i want to get back to the idea

of expectation that women who choose to do all of this, that they need to have an a-plus level. that is unstainable, how can we change that? >> it's disgusting that we don't have the support from the government or the community to stay home and take care of your kid. that's not the issue. i want to go back to what tania said about stripping away guilt. it comes back to judgment and guilt with mum, i don't think you can strip it away. i think women who are mums have guilt forever. it's built in, and i'm a person - i love my job, i love working and never want it to stop. i'm still in tears driving to work, leaving my child with someone else, whether it's at a day care or with my sister.

it's gut wrempinging. you canned - just because you want one thing doesn't mean that your heart is not split into a million different places. we have to be honest about that. working mums, stay at home mums, we are all mums. the judgment comes from ourselves and our own insecurities and guilt that we are carrying around. we have to realise all of this is in our control to help each defensive. >> the community is chiming in about everything. modern motherhood requires changes in labour laws. look at france and scandanavian, and tara says:

personally, being a recipient of intrusive comments about my own child free life i can under why. it's being a descendant of a people that didn't have a say. black women are helping to lead child-free lives. it's important to include women, choice. >> speaking about choice. 20% of american women are ending their child bearing years, compared to 10" in the 1970s. do we see the trend as empowerment and voices.

there's a double standard and difficult situation. >> going back to tania's point, we don't know why the women are not having children. i don't want to make too many assumptions about the stats. what we are seeing is that, for example, african american women, his panic women, asian women are seeing higher rates of remaining child free. part of that has less to do with ethnicity and other things, and more to do with education. the more educated women are, the more possibilities they have, the more likely they are to see child rearing, having children as a choice, and not a path they must walk. >> i see you shaking your head. we have to hit a break but make your comment. >> that's true in some cases. speaking of someone of this generation, there's a lot of talk about being ready and a lot

of people i know my age who want to have kids, but feel like they'd be giving everything up and are waiting for a specific time. that is something in the narrative that needs to change. we need to be honest, that it's scary to have kids and you'll never feel ready. >> agreed. >> hang on, we'll hit the break for a sec. mums will bit of it out. this time it's against the stereotypes.

>> i have a small business, i'm the president, the ceo, accounting, personnel, inventory, catering, and custodial. i ham damage control, creative development,

strategic planning, and human resources. but i'm committed and passionate about what i do, and i invest everything i've got. and the payoffs are huge. >> welcome back. we're talking about modern day motherhood. for many women, judgment is one of the major decisions they have to have or not have children. and as an anecdote, a group of connecticut women started ct working moms.com, and they published photos like these to push back. back against stereotypes. and michelle, your hashtag, spread love, not shame, and why is this so important? >> i think its everything. i think that the judgment we put on one another, i have felt it directed towards me, and also coming from myself.

and i get a lot of emails from young moms, who are just newly pregnant, and or going through the new mom phase, and their lack of confidence is startling, and it's tragic, and it doesn't need to be there. and i can see it so clearly, how your own insecurities create more judgment. and if we could just support one another and love one another and acknowledge the fact that just because you walk down a path doesn't mean that you are going to be in the same place, and the blanket assumptions that we throw over people for a circumstance that they're in, and not a certainty, it's damage for women's signing he's, in our ability to make decisions as parents. it really is everything, and it doesn't need to happen, and it could so easily be mitigated through social media, and through the online communities

where we can find people that are like us, and support one another through life. >> well, michelle, speaking of challenges: and. >> and how do we help to mothers? >> well, i think it's a couple of levels. one, i spoke earlier about the legislative aspect that goes on here, and we live in a society where we talk about moms, and they're the subject of political campaigns, but we don't support them with things like day care or paid parental leave. and i think especially where working class mothers, that becomes such a huge issue. sometimes there isn't a choice,

and they have to go out and work and have the kid. and there are few other outlets in society that support that. and that said, there are also the men, who are half of the equation here, or the partners who are also supporting this. and i think one of the dynamics that we're seeing right now, there are a lot more stay at home dads. i have a couple of good friends that are stay at home dads, and they get judged as well. why are you staying home with the kids. why aren't you out conquering the universe and become a ceo? why would a man choose to do that. well, we all choose the path that's so good for us, but our out is trapped in these models. >> that's a good thought, we all choose the path that's best for us, and that seems to be a great note to end the program tonight. thank you all, and until next time, raj and i will see you online.

>> hello there, and welcome to the al jazeera news hour. these are the top stories. a welcome sight as aid is again allowed to get to the besieged syrian city of homs. >> i have the top stories from europe, including large parts of the u.k. still underwater. and after claims of cyber spying by