away. it was traveling at 27,000 miles an hour when it zipped past. it posed no harm. thanks for watching al jazeera america. i'm del walters. "the stream" is next. and check us out 24 hours a day on aljazeera.com. ♪ hi, i am lisa fletcher and >> i am lisa fletcher. you are in the stream. states spend more on prisons than they do on schools. could a push from washington change that? we are going to take a look at renewed efforts to restore rights to ex acog s and ask if it could make communities safer and save tax dollars. all right p we are here and we

have live feedback. something like 65 million americans have a criminal record. this is a topic that you can't ignore? >> 65 million americans. 65 million stories. oftentimes, these stories aren't told with empathy. there is not that much sympathy. former inmates are responsible for their own actions and re-sid vichl rates? lisa, we have great stories. here is curtis, my felonyy has affected me: and another great story: >> it was interesting, you know, this isn't a conversation just about sympathy or empathy. this is about what reality what it means for our kids and

businesses. this touches all areas of our life. >> and we are getting great tweets and facebook comments touching on all aspects. >> more than half a million inmates are released from prisons every year. many of them end up recommitting crimes and going right back to jail. in fact, as raj mentioned, recidivism rates are as much as 60% in some states. after they served time, they say they face the harsh reality of life on the outside. >> includes social exclusion, difficulty getting a job and in some states, not being allowed to vote. the social stigma is not to be underestimated making some ask whether there ever really is a chance at a second chance. u.s. attorney general eric holder recently urged states to restore voting rights as a way to reduce the number of ex cons returning to prison. donald and cheryl were both formerly incarcerated. they say permanent disenfranchisement neither serves them nor their community? >> from 1997 to 2007, i paid my

debt. the judge said i would do so much time. i did it. i should be freed of that and now that i am home, i should have an equal opportunity right to get a decent job to make a decent living. >> i want to wake up in the morning, knowing i got a place in society. >> now, there is a push to find some balance promoting community safety and good stewardship of our tax dollars while helping fellons get back on track. the question is: where do we start? for some answers, we will look to nicole hillary, the director and council for the brennan center of justice. she advocates for sensible ways to reintegrate into the society. >> on skype is jesman he sneed after serving three years in prison, he determined to succeed. he is just months away from earning his law degree. he is active in promoting ways to help others follow until his path. from texas, we are joined by horace cooper, a fellow at

project 21. >> that's an initiative of the national center for public policy research, national leadership network of blacks. welcome everyone. i want to start with you desmond, you served three years of a 15-year sentence. what condition did you find yourself in mentally and physically when you were released from prison? >> well, one of the statements that really resonated with me was when one of the catholic priests said we get caught, we get punished. we serve our time. the minute we walk out of those prison gates, the minute door close, that's when our real sentence begins. and so as i was released from prison, you know, that's when my journey really started. the obstacles were there that were placed in front of me. i was released homeless, living on the streets right out of prison can didn't have id, didn't have any formal financial

support. so, i had to go into a shelter while looking for jobs, there were a lot of opportunities that were lost because of my prior felony conviction and that, in turn, kind of became discouraging and i ended up going back to using drugs and alcohol. >> desmond, a hopeless situation like that, most people can't wrap their brains around having nothing, have no support system, nowhere to go. did it ever drive you into such a state where you felt like it just really wasn't worth it to go on? >> well, eventually, it did, lea lisa. i remember that day in august, 2005, being homeless, addicted to drugs and alcohol, unemployed and the only thing i owned were the clothes on my back. i stood in front of the railroad tracks in south florida waiting on a train to come. as i was standing there, i knew that my mother didn't raise me to be in that position, but there i was. and i didn't see any hope of even going any further. and i just wanted to end it all

that day. >> nicole, is there a typical scenario of priorities and challenges that people face within the first six months when they are released from prison? >> sure. lisa, the same kind of challenges that any of us would face when we are just getting out on our own, you have to find housing. you have to figure out how you are going to pay the bills. so you have to get a job. you want to do all of the things that you normally do in order to just exercise your normal citizenship rights. you register to vote. all of those things that we all do. but for individuals who were formerly incarcerated, this is so much more difficult because there are many barriers placed in front of them. so many times, institutions, employers, housing agencies want to hold it against them for the mere fact that they have been formerly incarcerated regardless of the fact that they have served their time and have paid their debt to society, they still have to overcome barriers. >> talking about that, natasha

says many of these ex felons live in regions without legitimate industries or job duties. they have no way to travel beyond the local area and travel is further restricted by some states having a prohibition. others lack public transit, unstable housing situations and people look down on ex felons, they check background and won't higher. no money. they do things and go back to prison. revidvism is around 40 to 60. from prison to plummeted from $62 to $15. should we be providing more adequate resources to really help these ex fell options reintegrate in society? >> i don't think that's the problem. i don't think the issue that we haven't put together the right level of resources so these individuals are able to be motivated or able to be readily

reintegrated. but i want to speak a little bit more the people who are the victims of these individuals who have served their time. it is the people that we have named as fellons that say to our 7 ario citizens, you can't go out late at night because they prey on you. it's the rapists who are femons who make college campuses have to have special license systems set up. a lot of folks save money by working at convenience stores or other kinds of shops by themselves, late hours, trying to serve the community and they are the people that are often the targets of these fellons. we are not saying anything to those people when we say, let's not look so much at your problem. let's focus on the people who

are vi have victimized you and what problems do they have reintegrating back into society? there ought to be some c constraint or restraint on the part of the individuals committing the felonious acts and that will minimize the number of people who need to be reintegrated. >> at what point has a convicted femon served their time and paid their debt to society? a civil society, a judicial process they go through. they are convicted. they go to prison for whatever time that the judge and jury have deemed reasonable. they come out. at what point do they get to leave that behind and get that second chance? >> it's up to the individual. i am a person of faith. i believe that we should act with forgiveness. the state assessies a penalty ad there are certain sequences that occur as a result of those penalties i do not believe it's appropriate to sanction private act orders if they don't want to

hire people who were bank robbers, people who have broken into houses, burglars, rapists or any other kind of serious felon. i don't believe it's helpful to say to the people who are not of the mind top interact with them. it's up to the individual. >> individual on a indicates by case basis can convince people that they changed. >> what role do you think societal fear plays in creating barriers to ex cons when they are trying to reintegrate into society and have a productive life? >> i think it plays a major role. one of the things that i have noticed is that when an individual commits a crime, they are immediately dehumanized. their value is lowered to where the fact you will feel better punishing them but by doing so, they also play a part of the

fear that i think it's within all of us. you know, no one wants to be a victim of crime. no one wants crime in their neighborhoods. so they would use us as an example and, i guess, take images especially of african-american males and to cause the public to cry for hars beer punishment, longer sentences and to not receipt store the. it is difficult to escape when society labels you forever a criminal. when fellons do their time served they carry stigma they aren't bish beneficial. >> something that the desmond just touched on, nearly 6 million americans cannot vote because of a current or past felony conviction. after the break, does not having

a vote make you more likely to reoffend? we are going to talk about that. but first, you want to up your interaction? you have twitter. you have facebook. check this out. >> t.v. is no longer one way with the screen's second screen app. disagree with a guest? tell us. get content and guest information. interact with other app users in realtime. you can be our third co-host. vote, tweet, record video conference and we will feature them on air. use the app and drive community discussions os live t.v. this literally puts you in the control room. download it now at aljazeera.com/stream app and use it with every live news show.

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♪ ♪ it is time for fundamentally reconsider laws that permanently it is time to fundamentally reconsider laws that permanently disenfranchise people who are no longer under federal or state supervision. these restrictions are not only unnecessary and unjust. they are also counterproductive. by perpetuating the stigma and isolation imposed on formerly incarcerated individuals, these laws increase the likelihood,

increase the likelihood they will commit future crimes. >> does the ability to vote make you a more law abiding citizenship? one study says yes which means having a vote helps with the reintegration process. what do we know lowers the rate of reoffense? >> before i answer that, lisa, let me make a comment about the statement earlier, advocacy organizations like the brennan center that work on felon issues like felon disenfranchisement, our organization wants to make sure that every american citizens is law -- is a law-abiding citizens. we don't want anyone who has committed a crime to not pay their debt to society. let's be very clear on that. i think you can ask any legal organization, think tank that works on these issues that question and they would all say that. but what we need to understand is this: once an individual pays their debt to society, we want them to be able to reintegrate into their

communities. that is at the heart of our democracy in this country. the country was founded on the idea all men are created equal. we all have freedom. when we do things that get those freedoms taken away, we pay that debt. once you have done, that you are supposed to have your rights and opportunities and your responsibilities given back to you. so that's really what this discussion is about. when it comes to voting, that is at the heart of our democracy. if you tell any american to give them the impression that you cannot take part of our democracy, you are not only telling that person, you are half a citizens. you are having a trickle down effect in terms of how that community is impacted and how their families are impacted. the brennan center did a study a few years back that looked at what it means to individuals once they have their right to vote restored. people will tell you, it means, i feel like i am a part of my community. i feel like i have a voice in the society. your children see that. your community sees that. it makes all of the difference in items of how well you reintegrate into the society.

>> makes a hajj sociehuge socie if we want to say we want to stop people from committing crimes and stop people from not being good citizens, let's restore democracy to everyone once they paid their debt and that will go a long way to ensuring that we have people who become good citizens and pay attention to laws and exercise their rights and responsibilities the way we want everyone in this country to do. >> horace, convicted fell options, should they have their rights restored. >> balancederdash. the founders required 90 plus % of all fellons be hung. there was no rehabilitation, no reintroduction. it was their thesis that the crimes that merited the fell me catego category. don't wrap the flag around this. this is about a special interest being created. it turns out another set of studies and a series of them appear to show.

these people are more interested in the party of big government. >> that's the liberal party of democrats than they are in the conservative party of small government and republicans. this outrage is about partisanship, not about helping people. now, let's talk about what happens to the victims? i believe if we are talking about freedom, people have the ability to walk past a seven-11. they don't need to go inside and shoot anybody, rape anybody or engage in any of these kind of reasons. when we say there should be a reward afterwards, we are implying that somehow that you can't exercise that control. >> i am going to get some community. >> scott said it must not be forgotten that jail time is awful a powerful incentive. carol says disenfranchised fellons may feel they have no incentive to become law abiding and productive citizens. zac says that's itons may feel incentive to become law abiding

and productive citizens. zac says that's it. out of rage, not being allowed to vote? if it goes down with voting rights, why not make criminals earn them rather than biding time. we are talking about this but you actually lived it. look, fell optio owns fellons l lot of rights, to hold public offi office, sit on a jury. how did it feel to you as an american citizen to lose your fundamental right to vote? >> it real gates me to a second class citizenship statuslegates class citizenship status. anyone who takes the position that a felon should not have their rights restored upon release from incarceration is actually taking the position against their own self interests because if you would stop and think about it, 95% of the individuals who are incarcerated are coming home. they are going to get released. they are coming back into your own community. what do you want that person to face when they are out there? do you want them to not be able

to get a job, to be os tra sized, not be able to find adequate housing? not be able to get education? what do you think will happen thennot be able to find adequat housing? not be able to get education? what do you think will happen then in order for us to really improve our communities, friends in our community, we need to remove these obstacles and allow individuals that are released from incarceration to reintegrate as quickly as possible. there is no research out there whatsoever that would indicate that making it tougher for a returning citizen to have their rights restored would actually reduce the revrecidivism rate. >> the center for economicpoms and research did a study that looked specifically at barriers to re-entry. one of the things it talked about was with respect to just the employment issue alone, that it really does hurt our nation when we are making it very

difficult for the formerly incarcerated to get jobs. it talks within the study about the fact that our ability to produce products, to ensure that we have enough workers to do the jobs that are still available in this country is significantly decreased by the fact that we don't make opportunities available to the formerly incarcerated to become a part of the work force. so, i want to reiterate what desmond said. it really does go against the self interest of the country if we make it harder for these individuals who are indeed coming back into the community to reintegrate and actually become productive members of their community. >> horace, from your perspective, do people have to choose? do they have to decide whether to be for victims' rights or whether to support reintegrating ex cons? >> the reintegration of ex cons, as i have said, is a choice that the individual makes. there is no state law and certainly no federal law that says wal-mart can't hire ex

cons. what economists tell us is, if you then require wal-mart to hire those kinds of people, they will go out of their way to find out how to minimize the number of people that they can hire regardless of whether people are qualified, regardless of whether people have demonstrated that they are sorry or are ready to repent or reintegrate into society. every single time an berman dan berman daemployer mandate s, if ex cons to the category, we would see the phenomenon. we will look at some innovative responses to getting felons back on track. stick around. debate. and a host willing to ask the

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♪ welcome back. we are taking about the some sensible ways to try to welcome back. we are talking about some sensible ways to try to reintegrate ex cons into society once they have served their time in prison. now we want to talk about innovative approaches. >> a lot buchling of ideas. create programs that address mental health issues. there is an estimated 80% recidivism rate, severe mental illness. couples and family counseling prior to and following release. it helps families work the resentment and guilt. tailor parole policies. there is a bread company named killer dave owned by -- >> oregon? >> he heres ex fell options to give them a place.

a great non-property. career opportunities. these men, the bad egs, if you will of societygs, if you will of society. they are contributing to society. >> my favorite cinnamon bread hands-down. the initiatives are doing some innovative things. what's working? >> re refuse to use those terms anymore. we refer to it as having a problem. research has shown when you label somebody an ex-acog, that contributes to the likelihood of recidivm. we should start by using a more positive term to use when talking about individuals who

have been formerly incarcerated. >> that's step 1. step 2 is that we have to find ways to lift the value of individuals that are released from prison and one of the main institutions that we have been working with has been churches or congregations, faith-based congregations because we believe that they play a vital role in being able to welcome an individual back into their community, and they can stand on faith principles of forgiveness, restoration and redemption. so, i think that with those two, we can be well on our way. >> horace, is it in society's best interest to take an active role into helping these people reintegrate into society rather than just saying, you committed your crime. figure it out. >> well, first of all, there are great groups like prison fellowship and other organizations that actually work with individuals who are choosing to repent and want to get on with their life and find

ways to demonstrate how they can show the character. but i do not believe that it's the duty or the responsibility of the government in some way to say, well, you served your time. now, you can work as a prison guard. you served your time. i know you were off. here is your firearm. you can have it back. there is no reason to say, you sit on the jury now, and you get to decide what happened to these people. i am saying we need to look, a priority. who are the people and what choices are they making? will they choose not to? i think segments like this help to tell people who are sitting on the edge, there are consequences to bad choices a second chance act provides job training, drug treatment and other services for people leaving prison. nicole, how can side help reintegrate ex felons? >> i have to make this overall statement which is i am really

glad we live in a society that believes in second chances. when i listen to horace talk, i think if he had his way perhaps we would all make mistakes and never be forgiven. i don't know anyone in this country who has never made any kind of mistake, whether it's that you had gotten a parking ticket, whether it's that you, you know, failed a class. i mean every one has made some kind of mistake. thank goodness, we live in a country where people do have opportunities to make good even after having made their mistakes. with that being said, i think we have got to talk about not just what programs are available once people leave prison but what needs to happen when you are in prison. governor cuomo in morning sunday made an announcement he will fund college courses in prisons again for individuals. those kinds of things are a step in the right direction. let's try to prepare individuals so that once they do get released, they are prepared to take advantage of the opportunities that exist to get back into society. >> nicole austin hillary and desmond cooper, thanks for being

on the show tonight. until next time, we will see you on online. under government protest in ukraine with the government used of stall okay reform. seven demonstrators are reported. >> opposition leader has urged women and children to leave the main process camp in kiev index square. i am barbara sara. you are watching the al jazeera newshour life from london. also coming up on the